380 brass oversized or worn out?

[DerekP Houston]

OK this 380 is giving me a devil of a time now. I processed and shot ~50 rounds of golddot/xtp combinations to find a good load. Got back to the house with the same brass, decapped, sent it though the SS pins, and then dried it in the oven. This time around loading (with the same dies/setup as before) there is no tension on the bullets. I reset the crimp die, but it's like the brass isn't getting sized down enough to provide proper tension on the bullets.

I noticed it felt different went seating the rounds, so I took one and pressed the nose against my desk and it sank in deeper....not going to chance firing them. I switched to fresh brass and its back to normal tension and I can't push the round deeper, loaded with same dies/same setup.

Any ideas? Did I ruin the cases by using the oven to dry them? I seated a cast bullet round and it seemed much more 'snug' but it is .001-.002 larger than the factory JHP I bought for these rounds.

[edonwheels73]

Did you check your OAL?

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[DerekP Houston]

Did you check your OAL?

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original OAL was set right on the guidelines of the load manual, don't recall off the top of my head but around a thumbnail of the round showing before it tapers. It has to be something with the brass, as I pulled a few of the questionable rounds and was able to seat the bullet with no movement in fresh brass. Just not sure how I damaged the brass in the first place, I'm considering just dumping the whole batch in my scrap bucket and starting fresh.

[lefty o]

how hot, and how long in the oven?

[mdi]

Any time there is a fit situation, measure. Measure the sized case and compare it to a known good case or loaded round. That will give you a lot of information for troubleshooting. Try sizing post drying and/or air drying...

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Did you by chance fail to size the cases? Your OP said you decapped, which may be via a universal decapper, not the one in your sizing die.

I dry brass in the oven at 230 without a problem. I did a batch at 250, and the only ill effect was the brass turned a shade darker. No problem with bullet and case tension.

[jcren]

I would guess drying em may have done it. I have 380 brass that has been loaded several times with no problem. They eventually crack or I loose them.

[vzerone]

On another forum started by some ex-castboolit members there is a thread about using the stainless steel pin media. Some of them are claiming it wears the flash holes larger and also the primer pockets. I don't know as I don't use it. You might take some cases that haven't been in that type of media, mic the case mouth thickness, then mic them after you cleaned them in that media. Could be if left a long time in it that it could wear the brass down.

[DerekP Houston]

Did you by chance fail to size the cases? Your OP said you decapped, which may be via a universal decapper, not the one in your sizing die.

I dry brass in the oven at 230 without a problem. I did a batch at 250, and the only ill effect was the brass turned a shade darker. No problem with bullet and case tension.

Nope, ran em back through the 380 sizing die cause I thought of that too. Maybe I just left them in the oven too long, was only a small batch so I think I'll nix that and try again with new brass.

[BK7saum]

How hot and how long in the oven? I can't imagine them getting annealed unless it was really hot (450-500 degrees/broil) and/or left overnight.

How long have you had the dies? What brand dies? What brand brass? Just wondering if your dies were new, then maybe they are out of spec and have a 9mm carbide ring instead of the smaller .380 carbide ring (if carbide dies).

Just trying to eliminate variables.

[DerekP Houston]

How hot and how long in the oven? I can't imagine them getting annealed unless it was really hot (450-500 degrees/broil) and/or left overnight.

How long have you had the dies? What brand dies? What brand brass? Just wondering if your dies were new, then maybe they are out of spec and have a 9mm carbide ring instead of the smaller .380 carbide ring (if carbide dies).

Just trying to eliminate variables.

300f for maybe 30 minutes?

380 lee 3 die kit, brass is assorted range scrap. They have been working fine with all other brass and bullet combos, I'm going to chalk this up to user error on the drying portion and go back to towel drying. I've been using the same dies and cast bullets for a year now just recently started loading jacketed rounds and trying to fine tune my SD rounds.

[jdfoxinc]

Just load cast boolits and shoot. That will work harden them.

[kmw1954]

I have an old toaster oven that I'm using. Set temp to 175* and timer to 30 min. Timer expires I just leave them in until they are cool enough to pick up. So far I haven't had a problem.

Do you know what brand these are? It just might be the brass itself. I do all my priming on the press and I head stamp sort all my brass before I start anything. I do know and can feel that some brass is different than others by the way and pressure it takes to seat the primers. I also use very little flare and can feel a difference when seating bullets into different brass.

Long ago I had a small amount of 9mm brass that I was having all kinds of trouble with. After reloading it that one time and then shooting it, it all went into the trash as I just didn't want to fight it again. Today when I reload all that brand gets thrown into the Misc. pan and when I know I'm going to one particular outdoor range I'll load that stuff all up because I know I'm going to lose all if it.

[DerekP Houston]

it's all random once fired brass I purchased. The odd thing that threw me off, I had literally just shot these off on saturday with the same bullet/load combo. Not a single one was too loose when seating the bullet, and I pressed them all against my desk to see if I could budge the rounds. Took the same brass home, deprimed, cleaned, dried, and now they feel 'oversized' or like a rifle round with no neck tension.

I checked the other rounds I had loaded during the same batch and no issues, so far its just the rounds I shot off and then took back home for reloading ~50 cases.

[kmw1954]

Sounds to me the only variable could be the heat used in the drying process. Maybe a one time thing that never happens again and you will never know what happened.

[lefty o]

no need for 300, probably didnt do much but not needed. keep it under 200.

[M-Tecs]

300 should not have hurt it.

http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

[vzerone]

M-Tecs is right, that's not hot enough. BTW what brand is the brass? I know Remington is guilty of making thin brass. Got a lot of it in 32acp and 45acp. Haven't had trouble with it in 38/357.

[ulav8r]

700 is recommended for annealing brass, 300 should be no problem whatsoever. Someething else is the problem.

[lightload]

My guess is quality of the brass itself. If not that, could you by mistake had used a Makarov expander die?The only really weird reason might be the pistol's blow back action moving the slide back too soon due to a too weak spring--like the spring becoming weaker overnight. and causing greater case expansion.

[BK7saum]

700 is recommended for annealing brass, 300 should be no problem whatsoever. Someething else is the problem.


You are a correct that 6 - 700 degrees is recommended for annealing brass but that duration is for only a few seconds. Brass can be annealed at a lower temperature but it takes much longer for it to occur

[M-Tecs]

Most data states 482 F is need to have any annealing effect on cartridge brass regardless of soak time.

[BK7saum]

Hadn't heard the specific 482, but not disputing at all. I posted to clarify that annealing occurs below the recommended 700 degrees stated by ulav8r.

Would hate for someone to stick rifle brass in the oven at 500 or so and let it go overnight and then fire some 55k psi loads through their rifle.

[country gent]

Even if they annealed the cases should hold bullets maybe a little tighter than before as annealing softens the brass and removes lessens the spring back from sizing it. Were the original loads cast bullets or these jacketed bullets? I would recommend you measure the expander stem for correct dia. Also are you crimping these loads. A crimp can swell the case behind it causing loose bullets. The real area of issue with oven annealing is the case head primer pocket isn't protected and subjected to the annealing also. How does the expander fit on the sized cases? Case mouth dia before sizing? Case mouth dia after sizing? case mouth dia after expanding? Bullets actual dia? Overall length of cases, 5 -10 cases to check for varience?

[BK7saum]

Even if they annealed the cases should hold bullets maybe a little tighter than before as annealing softens the brass and removes lessens the spring back from sizing it. Were the original loads cast bullets or these jacketed bullets? I would recommend you measure the expander stem for correct dia. Also are you crimping these loads. A crimp can swell the case behind it causing loose bullets. The real area of issue with oven annealing is the case head primer pocket isn't protected and subjected to the annealing also. How does the expander fit on the sized cases? Case mouth dia before sizing? Case mouth dia after sizing? case mouth dia after expanding? Bullets actual dia? Overall length of cases, 5 -10 cases to check for varience?

Annealing also softens the brass so that there is less resistance to seating a bullet and less grip. Been there done that with some rifle brass one time.

[texassako]

Maybe the brass has work hardened and you are seeing increased spring back after sizing? Easy to test, anneal one and size it. Remember to toss it afterwards, though, since you will probably end up annealing the entire stubby little case.

[w5pv]

Look a the Brand Name if it is Lupia made in S Korea bury it.I have had a lots trouble with this brand name brass,it is just sorry made brass.It stretches no spring back.I crush all that I get.It will also blow out so be careful with this brass.I have not had the problems with other brands.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

If it worked the first time, why doesn't it work now? This is really strange.

[DerekP Houston]

If it worked the first time, why doesn't it work now? This is really strange.

Variety of headstamps too, I tried another 3 today with the same result. dumped that container of brass and grabbed some different ones from the garage and it works perfect again. I'm not gonna lose sleep over 50 pieces of brass. I even pulled a bullet from one of the dud rounds and it crimped fine in the new brass.

[kmw1954]

As I stated earlier, this may be one of those that it's never found what actually happened or why.

For 50pcs., like you I'd just scratch my head and move on. Though paying close attention to the next batch of prepped brass. If it happens again please let us know as I've just started reloading 380 also.

[mjwcaster]

I know you said you haven't had problems before, but just as a reference for others.
A search for issues with Lee 380 size die will turn up plenty of posts with it not sizing small enough.
I had the same issue, not having enough neck tension.
Even wasted my money sending it in to Lee. The illustrious Peter said it was in spec, he sized my provided brass and checked it with pin gauges.
Funny thing is that some of the returned brass had my provided projectiles seated in them.
I could push the bullets further into the case with just finger pressure.
Bullets were commercial plated, 0.355".
I cut my losses and just bought an undersize seating die.
My standard seating die doesn't even reliably produce enough neck tension for larger cast boolits.

I guess Lee's specs and Peter's version of enough neck tension just do not match my own, or many others.
More thorough searching after the event showed that Lee/Peter have been having the same issues since at least 2010.



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[Mr_Sheesh]

At least you caught the problem without any major failure (as in kaboom.) I've not seen that problem, I would also check your sizer die's lock ring (has it moved?) as well as the seating die's lock ring. Just in case one of those moved, causing over belling or not much restraightening of the case mouths?

[DerekP Houston]

I had not considered the die being slightly out of spec. It makes sense though as I'd been loading primarily slightly oversided cast rounds for my 380 since I bought it. This was my first 'jacketed' bullet purchase in a long while and first one for the 380. Even with the new bag of brass I've still caught 2-3 that didn't have enough tension to hold the bullet in place.


Is it worth ordering an undersize die from lee? Or should I just source a normal 380 resizing die from another vendor?

After some research it does indeed seem to be a common issue. Either the expander is slightly oversized or I need an undersized sizing die. I'll take some measurements when I get back this weekend and give Lee a call to see what they recommend.

[kmw1954]

Derek I have a lot of Lee stuff on my bench and am happy with it and will buy more.. At the same time I have not been overly thrilled whenever I've tried to contact them for advise or recommendations. At times I get the feeling that they know how to make it but they don't know how to use it.

I've got 380acp Lee dies that I bought used from a member on another forum after he gave up his 380 pistol. So far I haven't had a problem with them. I would be willing to pull them from the press and measure if you think it would help.