Catastrophic Failure - 1893 Spanish Mauser

[Dutchman]

I posted these photos here as public information in the interest of educating those who don't have experience with these types of Mausers. I never said the person who blew
it up was the same person who was trying to sell it.

The cause of this failure isn't known. I wasn't fishing for opinions on why it failed. Too many times we just don't know. But for them who buy these types of Mausers, the 1893 and 1893/16 and FR7 thinking they're strong because they read it on the internet...well... they need to know and they need to ~see~ what happens when one fails.

We should never hesitate to say "I don't know....". It doesn't make you an ignorant idiot it just means there's not enough information to ascertain a cause. But making wildly assumptive guesses is as bad as being flat out wrong. Consider the number of people of all levels of experience who'll read these notes.

I learned the meaning of "prudent" from Ralph Waldo Emerson and it has nothing to do with the prudish girls we sneered at in junior high school. Being prudent means finding a level of comfort, if you will, and being happy with it instead of constantly beating your head against the wall and complaining that you have a headache.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1091/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517853500-vi.jpg

http://images32.fotki.com/v1088/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517853969-vi.jpg

http://images32.fotki.com/v1090/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517854000-vi.jpg

Dutch

[Bret4207]

I'd lay a bet that it wasn't standard 308 ammo. I'm betting surplus steel jacketed stuff or home brew loads.

[JeffinNZ]

Looks like a full case of RED DOT to me.

What a waste. Shame.

[RP]

And he was trying to sell it for 100.00 wow scarpe metal must be very high in his area

[Larry Gibson]

I'll also bet that was not with .308W ammo, equivelant reloads or 7.62 NATO spec ammo. My guess is a case full of a very fast buring powder. Probably done by someone who wanted to prove how "unsafe" these were with 7.62 ammo nd went to some expense to do it. It could also be from a bore obstruction or SEE. Either of which cause the same type of extensive damage to the most modern of actions.

Too bad as the FR7/8s can be nice little rifles.

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

I would expect to see a progression of stretched reciever, hammered in lugs, etc., long before catastrophic failure. If this happened for real and not due to an overload or obstruction, someone ignored some big signs.

[mike in co]

strange that there are great pics of the rifle, but no cartridge pics....hmmmm sounds like a setup as others have said....

mike in co

[Bret4207]

Whoa dutchman! Don't get pissed, we're just throwing some ideas around. I've used a ot of '93's and '95s and had no issues at all. No one's saying anything about you, just theorizing on the guy that blew it up and how it happened.

[fishhawk]

man...i thought it was great of dutchman to put those up to see. but like he said he had no more information as to the "real" cause other than it was "supposedly" a 308, if your going to take offence at all of us trying to come up with the cause to prevent some one getting hurt......

[mike in co]

308 win works at 62k map amd 60k mpsm, and proofs between 83k and 89k psi.

7.62x51 operates at 50k psi and proofs at 67k psi.

before going any further you must understand that how the two pressures are measured are different so a direct comparison is not valid.

having said that there is a big difference in the two .


the case of this broken reciever is not the results of 16 to 20 or so additional kpsi....as others have said there was a bunch of pressure to cause the lugs to shear.

mike in co

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

There was nothing intended to discredit you or the post. It was most interesting. Please repost.

Larry Gibson

[Dutchman]

BTTtt

[pbbutz]

Thanks for putting up the pics back up!

[jhrosier]

There is an interesting article about the Spanish Mausers and the 7.62 cartridges here:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

Jack

[Echo]

Thanks, Dutdhman, for reposting. I was interested in what we were talking about, and I appreciate seeing evidence of what can happen.

[405]

Yes, Thanks for posting the pics.
No telling about details of the cause- other than it looks like a huge amount of pressure. I'm not at all familiar with the Mauser 93. The only similar high pressure load/action failure in a bolt gun that I'm familiar with was in a Mauser 98.... done on purpose and high speed filmed.
Like I said I'm not familiar with the 93 but that receiver ring design looks odd compared to the 98 and other similar actions like the Springfield, Win 54&70, Rem 700, etc.

Why no cartridge case to look at? :roll: Well, that brass-colored wash visible in the pics is the case

Prudent and conservative reloading gets my vote!

[Niner]

Where do the pictures come from? What's the actual story and actual evidence?

The truth about small ring M1916 Spanish Mausers blowing up after firing in reconfigured Nato caliber and also in the potentially even more powerful .308 caliber, has been hard to come by. This string only adds to the incomplete information.

Once upon a time the chief evidence of safety of the Spanish rifle was from a supposed White Labratory report, commissioned by an importer, and mentioned in a reprint of a reprint of a Guns & Ammo story. Flawed evidence on the one side at best. As to the other side, multiple unsubtantiated reports of castitrophic failure like this latest have followed over the years. No complete evidence ever offered or confirmed in any case that I'm aware of printed anywhere.

Reminds me of that recent Bigfoot story. Just one more log on the fire to a story that never ends.

[Buckshot]

.............Something educational to ponder between the pic's of this M93 Spanish and the blown up low number 03 Springfield at: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34480 The 2 photo's really put into perspective the meaning of the word "Brittle" as regards the 1903.

While the small ring DID blow up, the action with the exception of the top of the front reciever ring, is still intact. In fact the threaded portion of the action over the barrel shank is still there. Also it's evident the action bent, with the bridge being off of the actions centerline. Pull up the photo of the Springfield and place it next to the M93 Spanish.

The M93 blew up, but the 1903 shattered, grenaded, dis-integrated, disappeared, and pretty much simply dismantled itself.

................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Ya know, my eyes aren't that good, but isn't the right hand locking lug recess shoulder gone? I mean like not even a sign it ever existed? Wish I could see it in person.

[MtGun44]

It looks to me like a case rupture in the head area and insufficient venting.
Many early Mausers have no venting in the bolt head area and with a significant
increase in pressure from the 7x57 to the 7.62 NATO (45Kpsi to 60kpsi) it looks
like the action was destroyed by gas that couldn't vent well enough from the
bolt lug area. There is one vent visible, but apparently not enough to keep
from overloading the receiver ring which clearly failed outward, not rearward.

The failure seems to be ductile, lots of bent, yet intact material. The bolt went
back after the right locking shoulder area went away with the chunk of receiver
ring that is missing and the left one popped out far enough to release the other
lug. Note that both lugs are present and intact, not a thrust failure of the lugs.

Looks like an overload or bad case and the gun didn't have enough venting compared
to the strength of the steel. The 1903 Springfield has dual vents in this area but
Buckshots pix showed much more brittle behavior than this. Also note that brass
'plating' all over the interior area as the case literally partially vaporized.

Thanks for posting.

Bill

[stocker]

MtGun44: Not sure if you are referring to the missing recess in the same way as I am seeing it or not. It sounds like you are forgetting the bolt is rotated closed and the right locking lug is actually supported by the shoulder in front of the feed ramp and the left locking lug is supported at the top of the receiver ring. The pictures don't actually show these areas clearly enough to know what is left of the support areas.

[MtGun44]

Good point. One lug locks at the top (missing receiver portion here) and the
other at the bottom, hard to tell if the locking surface in the receiver is intact
or sheared, but it looks intact. I guess with the top one gone, the bolt could
move up and disengage the bottom lug.

Nasty mess.

Stick to proper pressure levels - 45K psi loads for the 7x57. Does seem to
make the FR7s a pretty marginal concept for running full power 7.62 NATO
ammo. I have some German ball that is pretty seriously hot stuff - steel
core and the primers are FLAT in HK91. It has the NATO cross and is accurate,
but it would be bad news for any rifle of marginal strength.

How about the proposition that FR7s were intended for the lower powered
aluminum core bullet loads that the early CETMEs were designed for and not
for full power 7.62 NATO? The chamber were the same, I think, and maybe
the Spanish assumed that since they controlled all the ammo, this was an
OK conversion because they were using low pressure loads.

Of course, once they are sold surplus, you will find folks stuffing whatever
they can get to fit into the chamber.

Kaboom.

Bill

[Dutchman]

It looks to me

Hello Bill

I read both your notes on the two rifles.

I like the way you walk down the road and describe what you see on the way without feeling the need to describe the color on the underside of butterfly wings. There are things that may be or may not be but you hit the important aspects succinctly and explain it without diarrheic verbosity. I appreciate that.

Dutch

[Larry Gibson]

Mtngun44

If we use the old 45,000 psi which is based on conversion from CUP then the current psi with modern pressure measuring equipment is 52,000 psi. The older pressure figure should be expressed as 45,000 C.U.P. One should also note that this is an American pressure figure used for the 7x57 cartridge and not one of German, Spanish or other European pressure level. Thus one must carefully detemine the relative meaning of "psi" not only with the 7x57 but with other cartridges as well.

"How about the proposition that FR7s were intended for the lower powered
aluminum core bullet loads that the early CETMEs were designed for and not
for full power 7.62 NATO? "

Not a correct proposition; if you can "hable espaniol" and read the Spanish manual for the FR7/FR8 you'll find they were fully intended to be used with 7.62 NATO ammunition and also could be used with the 7.62 CETME cartridge. Interesting to note that numerous lots of 7.62 NATO ammunition have not exceeded the 52,000 psi (3 different .308W rilfes) when measured by myself using a M42 Oehler PBL. Several lots of surplus 7x57 ammuntion excceed the psi of the 7.62 NATO ammunition. One lot in particular averaged over 60,000 psi!

Larry Gibson

[rusty marlin]

strange that there are great pics of the rifle, but no cartridge pics....hmmmm sounds like a setup as others have said....

mike in co

What do you think the gold coloured dust is?
That's the vaporized case head. If that was a modern steel action that held together with kind of a case vaporisation, the action would have been brazed shut. I've tested rifles to this level of destruction on purpose. Your looking at over 100Ksi based my experiance. The problem with that statment is that pressure measurment at over about 75Ksi gets dambed near impossable to do it accuratly. The pressure pulse is too quick and too violent for the strain gages and signal processing to keep up with. But this statment is very accurate, that's not brass flow, that's vaporization.

[swdepew]

I believe the failure mechanism can be determined by a careful examination of the fracture surface. For all we know this could have been a fatigue failure. However, my question to all in this forum is could this type of failure be avoided if the metal has been heat treated? Although some distortion could happen during heat treating, so would it be more "prudent" to go to a case hardening treatment thus increasing tensile strength and wear resistance while still allowing the inner part of the metal to maintain its ductility and toughness. Does anyone have any experience with this? I have a company that quoted me $150.00 to nitride about 15 lbs of low carbon steel do a depth of .01 to .03 mm.

What do you think?

And to give a reference I have a 1916 Spanish mauser chambered in the 7mm mauser round that I am considering treating. And before you try to talk me out of this and convince me to just buy another rifle, I am considering this mainly because of the sentimental value of the gun ( it being passed on from my grandfather). And I dont want to just display it. I want to safely use it.

[bohica2xo]

That failure had nothing to do with metallurgy. The high pressure gas did the damage.

Even a "vented" action can be blown up that way. When you feed high pressure gas into that large of an area, the forces are huge. Look at the damage to the bolt stop. That was all done by high pressure gas running down the left side rail - which is empty when the bolt is locked.

I have blown up plenty of weapons - and got paid to do it. I could probably duplicate that failure a couple of ways. A max load of 4895 & a fully annealed case might produce the same result. Shooting it with a cleaning rod still in it might do it too.

The picture below was from a testing program for a certain group of swimmers. We loaded the M16 under water, so that it was 100% full of water. Fired it under 4 feet of water. Spec. M855 round.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_f9mZJsRJS54/S60A0QZREqI/AAAAAAAAAHU/e5xGglfMCbQ/s720/023_14.jpg

Now, that is as much bore obstruction as you can get. Pressures were very high. The gas blew the magazine catch clear out of the lower receiver, gutted the magazine (loaded with 19 rounds for the test) and slightly bulged the magazine well. The extractor was bent badly, and the action was a chore to open.

The bolt & barrel extension were in fine shape. Headspace checked ok. The upper was fitted to another lower, and that bolt/barrel/extension assembly were tested for another 5,000 rounds & magnafluxed. Still passed.

Guns can & do blow up. We should all remember that. OP, thanks for posting that picture.

B.

[tdoor4570]

since this one is destroyed i would love to have the front sight assy. off of it for mine:bigsmyl2:

[blastit37]

The term metallurgy can mean the make up of the material and/or its heat treat or to a failure analysis determining the cause of the failure as swdepew is referring to. A failure can have only 2 causes, overload as you are referring to or fatigue which is caused by a latent defect and occures at loads below the design operating criteria. If the failure is fatigue, the failure could have occurred with any load. The fracture face tells the story.

[Multigunner]

US military specifications for the M-80 ball (NATO standard infantry rifle ball that typifies the ammo marked with the NATO interchability headstamp) cartridge is 48,000 CUP or 50,000 PSI EPVAT transducer. Maximum standard deviation is 53,000 CUP or 56,000 PSI.

The M118 Long Range cartridge on the other hand is rated at 52,000 CUP, with a 57,000 CUP standard max deviation of 57,000 CUP. These are not listed under PSI, only measured in Copper units of Pressure.
The Average working pressure of the M118 is 4,000 CUP higher than the average working pressure of the M-80 Ball, its Max Deviation is also 4,000 CUP higher or 9,000 CUP higher than the average working pressure of M80 ball which is around 20%.
The original proof test loads for the GEW88 and the SMLE and No.4 rifles (and possibly the 93 Mauser since it predates the increased proof test loads used for the model 98) were around the same pressure levels as an M118 cartridge that is on the high end of acceptable maximum deviation. Long range target loads for the .308 Winchester can have a average working pressure that exceeds the maximum deviation pressures of the M118 LRSB.

Most .308 hunting ammunition is no hotter than the M-80 ball, but theres no garantee that some or all the cartridges in any box won't push the maximum SAAMI limit of 62,000 PSI.

US Milspec proof test cartridges for the 7.62 NATO (HPT, High Pressure Test) are listed as 64,000-67,000 CUP.

The vast majority of documented failures of converted military rifles chambered for the NATO cartridge appear to have been due to defective ammunition from a single source.
Theres no available information on these since last I heard the company that made this ammunition or the Importer was neck deep in lawsuits and still trying to settle liability claims.
In that sort of litigation documented evidence may never be released to the public.

I have no problem with the older rifles so long as the action is not overstressed by the increasingly hotter loads being made available for the .308 and Long range sniper and MG loads in 7.62 NATO.

PS
In looking through Hatcher's research on low number springfield receiver failures I found one instance of a low number fracturing with pieces simply falling to the floor when a downloaded guard cartridge was fired. There was no sign of excessive pressure or an accidental doubled charge. His theory was that the faster burning 9.1 grain charge of Bullseye had reached peak pressure very suddenly giving the action a short sharp impact rather than the slower build up of pressure from a normal charge.
If so then many rifles that failed after firing very light loads of fast burning powder probably were not victims of accidental double charges as is often taken for granted.

[3006guns]

No matter what the cause (and I have my own suspicions regarding the Spanish rifles) it's just one more reason to shoot nice comfortable cast loads........saves the gun and my shoulder!:-P

[Fat-beeman]

I have 2 Spanish rifles I have shoot 7.62 nato rounds thru both but I mostly shoot reduced cast reloads. I also got 1 in 7mm never shot that one,no cases to reload yet. love all my mausers. some time people pick up wrong mil ammo that's not marked and blow up rifles. I never load max loads. but I am old man.

Don

[MtGun44]

Looking back at this post.

Please look very closely at the first picture. On the left side of the receiver ring, look at
the fracture surface, starting at the vent hole. It has two textures and colors there locally,
but the inner color/texture blends into the full depth of the metal as it reaches approximately
flush with the end of the barrel. The part over the top if the barrel looks possibly dirty and
slightly polished, which is a hallmark of a fatigue crack. This location looks to be at the end of
the barrel threads in the receiver - and a thread root is a stress concentrator. It is entirely possible
that the crack originated at the inner surface of the vent, traveled until it hit the bottom of the
thread and the followed the thread around to the other side. As with all fatigue failures,
the crack reduces the available material in the stress path until the remaining material cannot
support the load and it fails suddenly.

This is why there are two different surface textures in a fatigue failure - the crack is old and
corrodes and polishes against itself, but the final failure is bright, new and usually rougher.

I wish I could look at that fracture surface under about 10X magnification in really good light.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with MtGun44 and bohica2xo; this catastrophic failure was caused by an extreme overload of fast burning powder or a severe bore obsruction.

I might note, since this thread is referenced in the newer thread concerning a like occurence with a M96 action, that it was with a M96 in 6.5 Swede that SEE was first documented as fact and replicated some 25 years or so ago (I have posted the Handloader article on such on this forum). I will also note that very similar catastrophic failures of other actions (M70, M700s, Weatherby's, M14s, etc.) have been posted on this and other forums. The fault lies with the human operators and what they put in the rifles for ammuntion, not the actions. All are indicative of severe overloads with fast powders, bore obstructions or SEE (itself a self produced bore struction).

Larry Gibson

[DWM]

A good failure , but I have another idea about , FR8 and M96 cock on closing it mean when you close the bolt the firing spring compress , if some "smart" gunsmith touches the trigger sear to have a light pull the firing pin could be released before you turn the bolt to engage the receivers lugs , if the cartridges is ignited and the bolt not partial or fully closed , with 3/8 of the base of the cartridges outside the chamber all the pressure it's contained by the front ring , and it's not engineered to do it , it just explode ; this is why you see the bolt lugs intact and the lower reciever lug not shredded... the Spanish M93 have a guide on the left wall of the receiver , it's very difficult if it fail closed to open and retract 2 inches the bolt...

Just my idea

Daniel

[Multigunner]

A good failure , but I have another idea about , FR8 and M96 cock on closing it mean when you close the bolt the firing spring compress , if some "smart" gunsmith touches the trigger sear to have a light pull the firing pin could be released before you turn the bolt to engage the receivers lugs , if the cartridges is ignited and the bolt not partial or fully closed , with 3/8 of the base of the cartridges outside the chamber all the pressure it's contained by the front ring , and it's not engineered to do it , it just explode ; this is why you see the bolt lugs intact and the lower reciever lug not shredded... the Spanish M93 have a guide on the left wall of the receiver , it's very difficult if it fail closed to open and retract 2 inches the bolt...

Just my idea

Daniel

Don't these have a firing pin retraction camming action?
Pin retraction is necessary to prevent pin wear or breakage during ejection cycle.
Its been many years since I've owned a 1895 but seems to me the firing pin could not contact the primer unless the bolt was fully locked.
An overly long firing pin, or a broken off firing pin tip jammed tight in its hole could ignite a primer on the forwards stroke of the bolt.


PS
Contary to what some believe, erosion and wear to the bore can create hazards and excessive pressure situations.
If the throat is badly eroded and the charge does not bump up the bullet enough to seal properly, blowbay can heat a bullet jacket to brazing temperatures before it travels past the eroded section. By then the bullet has lost much of its impetus and can be seized up in the bore while pressures are still building. This results in a pressure peak directly behind the bullet. If far enough up the bore a barrel failure will result before the pressure wave backs up to the chamber, if not far enough up then the casehead blows and action fails.
This can happen more easily with some light loads than with full house loads. A heavier charge being more likely to bump up the bullet and force it past the eroded section without seizing.

Other factors.
Excessive carbon and metal fouling infiltration of aligator checking in the leade. This reduces effective bore diameter swaging down the bullet slightly leaving windage to allow blowby.
Crazecracking. A real phenomena despite what some may believe. I've seen sections of lands cracked away in midbore by craze cracking.

[bohica2xo]

A good failure , but I have another idea about , FR8 and M96 cock on closing it mean when you close the bolt the firing spring compress , if some "smart" gunsmith touches the trigger sear to have a light pull the firing pin could be released before you turn the bolt to engage the receivers lugs , if the cartridges is ignited and the bolt not partial or fully closed , with 3/8 of the base of the cartridges outside the chamber all the pressure it's contained by the front ring , and it's not engineered to do it , it just explode ; this is why you see the bolt lugs intact and the lower reciever lug not shredded... the Spanish M93 have a guide on the left wall of the receiver , it's very difficult if it fail closed to open and retract 2 inches the bolt...

Just my idea

Daniel

Sorry Daniel, but none of that applies here.

That bolt has been moved since the failure. After the smoke cleared, the bolt was probably still locked into the lower lug. Even if it had been blown clear out of the lower lug, it would not have rotated.

If the cartridge had been fired out of battery, ther receiver ring would still be intact, and the bolt stop would have mechanical damage - not gas damage. The extractor would probably still be on the bolt. I have done that test more than once, it is not particurlarly destructive.

The gas damage on that rifle is extensive. The proposition that the steel failed before the cartridge is bunk. The dark area at the top of the ring is a burn mark and likely the origin of the inital tear. Most people do not realize just how thin the ring is on a Mauser until they see one in this condition. The lower lug is far better supported than the upper.

The gas damage inches away (and past the charging cut!) to the bolt stop is very telling. That damage is consistient with other rifles I have examined that were blown up with high pressure events. The vaporized brass sprayed around the action is another clue.

Again, this failure had nothing to do with metallurgy. The same factors that blew this rifle apart would do the same thing in a M70 or M700 if duplicated. As to what the exact factors were - that will remain unanswered in this case.

As for a "gunsmith" causing this by "touching the sear" - nope. The original 2 stage trigger appears to be in the weapon, but cock on close or open the firing pin can not advance until the bolt is rotated. Even if you hold the trigger back it will not fire out of battery.

On rifles like the FR8, that have been stored in bulk & handled by many, there is a big concern over headspace. People swap bolts around all the time when there are hundreds of rifles laying around - and they do not know better. They were rebarreled at one time too. The only thing I would do with an FR8 before shooting it would be a headspace check.