.30-30 with Lee 113gr

[seetrout]

I could swear I saw a post about this combo, but I can't find it again. I just got the 113gr Lee .30 cal mold for plinkers in a couple of model 94 winchesters. My problem is that I am a Hodgdon powder fan and almost all the loads I find are for Unique or other powders that I don't normally use. I broke in the mold yesterday with WW+1% tin alloy water dropped but can run another batch air cooled if necessary. TL with 45/45/10. Was hoping to use them as cast without GC.

Powders on hand are clays, Universal clays, International clays, 2400, H110, 4227, IMR4759, H335, VARGET, IMR4831.

I am thinking 5gr Clays or 8gr Universal as a starting point.

What do YOU think?

[Hickory]

I think your on the right path.

[Ben]

I never have any luck with a gas checked design bullet when I leave the g/c off.

Hopefully your luck will beat my past experiences.

Ben

[ShooterAZ]

My experience is the same as Ben's. The gas checked designs will shoot, but I've found they are more accurate with the check installed. If you want to try a light non-gas check plinker boolit, Take a look at this one. I size to .311, lube with LLA and load over 2.7 gr of Bullseye. It feeds perfectly through my M94 and is tack driving accurate. Another good combo with this one is 7 gr of Trail Boss. Fun to shoot and accurate enough for head shots on bunnies and squirrels out to 50 yds+.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010195352/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl314-90-swc-32-20-wcf-32-s-and-w-long-32-colt-new-police-314-diameter-90-grain-tumble-lube-semi-wadcutter

[MT Gianni]

If you know a talented metal smith you can remove the gc portion of the bullet shank. Mine shoots well without it out of 32 H&R and low velocity 30-30 contender loads.

[seetrout]

My experience is the same as Ben's. The gas checked designs will shoot, but I've found they are more accurate with the check installed. If you want to try a light non-gas check plinker boolit, Take a look at this one. I size to .311, lube with LLA and load over 2.7 gr of Bullseye. It feeds perfectly through my M94 and is tack driving accurate. Another good combo with this one is 7 gr of Trail Boss. Fun to shoot and accurate enough for head shots on bunnies and squirrels out to 50 yds+.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010195352/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-tl314-90-swc-32-20-wcf-32-s-and-w-long-32-colt-new-police-314-diameter-90-grain-tumble-lube-semi-wadcutter

I had a .40 cal TL design once and when I tried to size them it ironed out the lube grooves, I exchanged it for the regular design. You get away with sizing it down .003"?

We have machinists and a machine shop at work. It would probably be childs play for one of them to remove the GC shank.

[ShooterAZ]

.003 on that boolit does not iron out the lube grooves, it works fine.

[arlon]

I have used it with GC in a number of different cases. Posted about using it with 10g of red dot in a 30-06 recently. Accuracy was a pleasant surprise!

[earlmck]

You are on the right track. And as far as I can tell, Universal is identical to Unique but throws better from a powder measure. You find a promising sounding load using Unique, I'll bet it works just the same with Universal. And clays, though I haven't used it, would likely be a direct replacement for Red Dot or Bullseye.

I have had generally good luck using a gc design w/o the gc, so long as I stayed in plain-base bullet velocity levels. As soon as the bullet starts going much over the 1400 fps level then the gc starts being an advantage. I would expect you to do ok without the gc with the modest velocity levels of the loads you are planning on starting with.

[gpidaho]

I think the powders you mention will work just fine. In my plinking rifle rounds I prefer TiteGroup but most fast pistol powders work well. Gp

[skeet1]

seetrout
You may be thinking of an article written by Junior Doughty (a member of this forum that has since past away) on shooting this bullet in the 30-30 with WC 820 surplus powder. Here is part of his article.

Ken

The shocker of all my testing was the Lee C309-113-F "soup can"bullet, it is called. I had previously wasted several days trying to get it to shoot using several different powders. Groups at 50 yards ran 6"to 12"and even more. All that little bullet needed to cure its ills was a dose of WC820 (n).
I used a .7cc Lee dipper for ~10.1 gr WC820 (n). The photo on the right speaks for itself.
The data:
AV = 1480 fps; SD = 23; Group size = 5 in 1 1/4"
That was with the target flapping in the breeze, too![/I]

[seetrout]

That's awesome Shooter! I may have to get one soon just to have it. Much thanks for the hint.

Arlon I a probably going to try it with the GC and a higher pressure level in my M1's in the near future. Not sure if I can get that light a cast bullet to cycle the action reliably without leading but that's for another time.

Earl, my personal experience with Universal is it has a definite pressure preference on the low end. Not dangerous like H110, but leaves a yellow unburnt powder residue until you completely seal the case, BUT, this is my first leap into cast bullets in rifles and that may change everything I know about Universal hence my starting this thread. All my "google fu" research has indicated that you can load Universal the same as Unique -10%, (DISCLAIMER - I am probably full of $%^&. Use this approximation at your own risk). I think you are right about the Clays as well, although Universal is my favorite for anything non-magnum pistol so that is where I am starting, plus I want to save my Clays for 12ga skeet loads. I don't shoot near as many 20's so the Universal for pistol thing, plus you can't double most pistol rounds with universal but you can with clays.

Skeet - Dude you the man.
That's the post that was stuck in my brain. I don't remember when I saw it, but it was stuck there as the "soup can" load. Thank you!

Soooo...my results.

I have 2 M94 Win's. a post 64 made in 1964 and a 1972. 8.1 to 8.2 gr of Universal. CCI LR primer in RP brass. Velocity - Unknown, I may take the chrono out next time. Accuracy - subjective...I put every round in a 6" black bullseye at 50 yards offhand out of both rifles. I might take the sandbags out next time as well, but I am officially happy with the plinker load as is. Neither rifle will put 3 Federal classic in that target off sandbags. Then again, nothing I own will shoot Federal classic ammo better than 12ga buckshot.

No leading in either rifle.

I do have another Q though. All the primers were backed out of the cases. I suppose there was not enough pressure to force the brass back and "reseat" the primers, but it does raise a concern in my mind. So...is it a cause for concern or par for the course, just ignore it?

[seetrout]

seetrout
You may be thinking of an article written by Junior Doughty (a member of this forum that has since past away) on shooting this bullet in the 30-30 with WC 820 surplus powder. Here is part of his article.

Ken

The shocker of all my testing was the Lee C309-113-F "soup can"bullet, it is called. I had previously wasted several days trying to get it to shoot using several different powders. Groups at 50 yards ran 6"to 12"and even more. All that little bullet needed to cure its ills was a dose of WC820 (n).
I used a .7cc Lee dipper for ~10.1 gr WC820 (n). The photo on the right speaks for itself.
The data:
AV = 1480 fps; SD = 23; Group size = 5 in 1 1/4"
That was with the target flapping in the breeze, too![/I]

Isn't WC820 basically canister grade H110?

[oldblinddog]

3.0 grs IMR Target
https://imrpowder.com/imr-target/

[skeet1]

seetrout
There are different burn rates of WC820 and some were in the H110 speed. The WC820n (new) is usually considered close to Accurate #9 and is the one that Junior Doughty was using.

[earlmck]

I do have another Q though. All the primers were backed out of the cases. I suppose there was not enough pressure to force the brass back and "reseat" the primers, but it does raise a concern in my mind. So...is it a cause for concern or par for the course, just ignore it?

Ignore it -- I also get pooched-out primers in 30/30 with those low-pressure (well below 20k psi according to QuickLoad) loads and have used them in my elderly Marlin for lotsa years.

And I'm sure you have noticed that you could double (or even triple) charge your 30/30 with Universal. QL says you'd be OK (as in pressure below 50k psi) with the double, but don't try the triple.

[jcren]

The pushed primers can be cured withdrilled outflash holes.

[TCLouis]

15.5 2400 was a winner in a friends 30-30 with the 115 grainer.

Recently found that 7.9 Unique did well for me in the 14" Contender.

[Yodogsandman]

I liked a load of 3.7gr Bullseye with GC'd 113gr "soup cans".

[Jack Stanley]

After shooting a huge pile of gas checked bullets without the checks . I've learned that inspecting the bullets after sizing and rejecting any deformation in the base band works quite well . That band is the last thing to see your rifle and it has to be good .

Jack

[seetrout]

I am quite happy with this load. I can keep all my shots in the black at 50 yards offhand in both model 94's. Both shoot about 1" 5 shot groups off the sandbags at 50yds. I took the Chrono out today and was surprised to see 1549fps avg (was expecting about 1200) for 20 rds out of the 1974 vintage rifle with ES of 36 and SD of 12.

[beemer]

If you know a talented metal smith you can remove the gc portion of the bullet shank. Mine shoots well without it out of 32 H&R and low velocity 30-30 contender loads.

That makes a nice 100 gr. bullet for my 32 Colt NP. It shoots like a 22 in my Nagant with Red Dot or
Trail Boss.

Dave

[rsrocket1]

Universal is close enough to Unique in 5-10g rifle loads that it won't matter.
International is close enough to Green Dot that you'll be good to go with that too.
At 50 yards you should be able to develop some 1" groups without a GC
Here are some groups with random but contestant charges of pistol powder in .308 and Lee bullets.
https://images3.imgbox.com/aa/d4/a4Ht6PiZ_o.jpg

[Texas by God]

I recently got this mould and I'm looking forward to trying it in my 30-30s.