Muzzle brake question

[BlackIce05]

Ok, so I have never had anything with a threaded barrel nor have I ever really looked very closely at anything with a muzzle brake. I just bought a rifle that has a threaded barrel, and just happen to have a muzzle brake with the same threads. Don't even remember where it came from. But my question is, I see that most new muzzle brakes come with either a crush washer or jamb nut of some sort. I don't have either and can't seem to find either locally. Are these truly required? I can order one online, but it's killing me to have a shiny brand new gun just sitting there staring at me. While I could go out and shoot it without the muzzle brake, I'd prefer to not have to sight it in twice. Just hoping someone has some useful tips, ideas, or suggestions.

[jdfoxinc]

My muzzle brakes are just torqued down, no washers. To shoot withour the brake get a nut(s) with the same thread to protect the threads.

[BlackIce05]

The barrel came with a thread protector. But was more interested in trying it out with the muzzle brake. So just torquing it down doesn't hurt anything? I just assumed there must be some reason for the crush washers and such.

[M-Tecs]

The spacers or crush washers are used to index the brake. If you don't need to index it you don't need them.

[BlackIce05]

Good deal, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear, but figured it was wishful thinking. Now, to show my ignorance with muzzle brakes, this has slots cut into it that cover approx 50% of the muzzle brake. I'm guessing you want the solid half facing down with the ports facing up so that it pushes the muzzle down when shooting?

[B R Shooter]

I hope your brake is for the caliber the gun is!

[BlackIce05]

Actually, that was my next question. It's for a 308, where I'm putting it on a 7mm mag. Obviously the bullet will go through the hole, and I expect it'll lose some of it's effect due to being over sized, but would it negatively affect anything?

[roysha]

Good deal, that's kind of what I was hoping to hear, but figured it was wishful thinking. Now, to show my ignorance with muzzle brakes, this has slots cut into it the cover approx 50% of the muzzle brake. I'm guessing you want the solid half facing down with the ports facing up so that it pushes the muzzle down when shooting?

That is the reason for the crush washer,so you can index it.

[lefty o]

youll need to index it. that can be accomplished with machining, crush washers or peel washers. machined to index properly is the best looking.

[BlackIce05]

Ok, so my assumption on the index of it is correct then? If so, finger tight is about 180 out. Not sure how tight to tighten it down, if half a turn past finger tight is too tight?

[lefty o]

finger tight, plus about an 1/8th of a turn is usually plenty.

[BlackIce05]

Dang, that means I'll have to get a spacer or crush washer after all. That's too bad, I like the way it looks without them.

[Kestrel4k]

My sincere apologies if this is a dumb question, but you're sure that this is a muzzle break and not a flash hider yes ?
It's just that "slots" make me think more of flash hiders, while "holes" are more often associated with muzzle brakes.
Just wanted to make sure is all; Best regards,

[W.R.Buchanan]

One other little tid bit. Make sure you ahve your ears covered when you shoot that thing. A 7MM Mag is going to have a serious report and it woudl normally be directed down range away from you.

The Brake will direct the blast to the sides and you will notice it, and so will anyone next to you big time.

Randy

[BlackIce05]

Honestly I'm not sure of anything. I'll hunt around and see if I can find a picture online similar to it. I'm very familiar with 7mm Mag, this is my 2nd, the 1st I've been hunting with for 15 years or so, but it doesn't like the bullets I want it to like, and honestly I just couldn't pass up a brand new rifle for $199.

Apparently it is a flash hider...http://core15rifles.com/308-a2-flash-hider.html

that looks exactly like it. lol guess I should have done a bit more looking, it was labeled as a muzzle brake so that's what I went on. On that note, any suggestions for a decent muzzle brake?

[M-Tecs]

Do a search on "muzzle brake tests" Rule of the thumb the bigger and baffles the more effective. I like the Vais brakes http://www.muzzlebrakes.com/ as a good compromise but you have to confirm that the threads match. Above 22 cal you get several different sizes and pitches.

My next brake will be a https://fortismfg.com/muzzles/muzzles-762/ar10-fortis-762-red-brake-ss for an AR10.

[Boolit_Head]

youll need to index it. that can be accomplished with machining, crush washers or peel washers. machined to index properly is the best looking.

Just to toss the wrench in you can use shims too.

[BlackIce05]

That RED brake looks interesting. So would putting a brake designed for .308 on a 7mm mag have any negative affect on anything? It appears the AR10 commonly has the same threads as mine, and is much more prevalent.

[M-Tecs]

So would putting a brake designed for .308 on a 7mm mag have any negative affect on anything?.

I don't have a clue. Best would be to give a couple of manufactures a call. I have thoughts on the subject but never having tested I would just be guessing.

[Boolit_Head]

Some of the oddball calibers it's common to use a different caliber brake. Quite often the 6.8 spc crowd used a 30 cal brake with no ill effects.

[country gent]

Over tighting a muzzle break to time it can make the muzzle tight from the Vee threads torque compressing the muzzle. This is one reason why the flash hider wrench for the M1A/M14 was such a simple little stamping and not made as strong as some thought it should be. The added weight of the muzzle break added can affect a barrels harmonics. Browning had a set up that was adjustable for matching harmonics to a given load.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The efficiency of the brake will diminish slightly with a hole larger than about 1 mm (.04) over bullet size, and not much is gained going smaller.

[vzerone]

Do yourself a favor and don't install it. A flash hider won't increase the noise as much as a true brake, but still loud enough that they aren't enjoyable to shoot. The major thing is it's going to change your bullet point of impact and your accuracy to some degree. Think of it as a barrel weight tuner that isn't adjustable like a real barrel tuner. Next you don't need a flash hider unless you're in the military and in battle with an enemy. Most the whiz bang gizmo's on AR15's is because most everyone has to have everything on them including the kitchen sink. Not saying you have an AR, I understand the rifle you are talking about.

The thing on the Brownings is called the BOSS and some Winchesters had them too. They are barrel harmonic tuners and the work VERY WELL. There are two versions of them: vented (thus a tuner and muzzle brake both) and an unvented (which is just a tuner). Like I mentioned muzzle brakes are almost unbearable to shoot and many gun ranges don't allow you to use them. I was testing a muzzle break on a 308 rifle and even with ear plugs and ear muffs it was loud.

Just put the thread protector on it and leave it alone.

[W.R.Buchanan]

i have two or three Smith Enterprises Muzzle Brakes and I have to tell you that they work really well. One is on my Garand and it virtually eliminates the recoil on that gun. I have another on my RGS77 and it cuts the recoil on that gun down to .223 levels.

Excellent quality products and they have been around for a long time. They have a video on their site that shows an M16 mag 50 round mag dump. The muzzle doesn't even move!!!

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

i have two or three Smith Enterprises Muzzle Brakes and I have to tell you that they work really well. One is on my Garand and it virtually eliminates the recoil on that gun. I have another on my RGS77 and it cuts the recoil on that gun down to .223 levels. Most of the available Muzzle brakes out there are either .22 or 30 cal. .30 cal works just fine for a 7MM or even a .25. The hole thru the MB must be larger to make sure the bullet doesn't hit the brake on it's way thru due to minor misalignment.

The alignment of Muzzle accessories does make a difference. The only way to insure perfect alignment is to have a non Threaded register before and after the threads themselves. The Germans figured this out 100 years ago but it appears that many others haven't.

Very few new guns have this feature even for sound suppressors. As result the exit hole in the accessories are deliberately made larger which only results in slightly less effectiveness.

Smith Enterprises offers high quality products and they have been around for a long time. They have a video on their site that shows an M16 mag 50 round mag dump. The muzzle doesn't even move!!!

http://www.smithenterprise.com/

Randy

[vzerone]

Randy true that muzzle brakes do indeed work, but at the cost of a lot more noise. Some flash hiders also need indexed and the Colt Squirrel Cage models with the bottom vents closed is one. In a small sense since gases exit upward out of that style of flash hider, it is sort of a compensator to keep the muzzle from climbing.

[BlackIce05]

I appreciate all the help so far. I have no real use for a flash hider other than maybe it looks better than the thread protector. As for a muzzle brake, I had read that they make things guns significantly louder for the shooter and others standing around them, but I'm not too concerned with noise. I don't shoot at a range, and I always wear ear protection when shooting, especially with a 7mm mag. That's a pretty loud gun on it own. I'm still a little on the fence if I want to spend the money on a muzzle brake, they seem to be pretty expensive and I've gotten by for many years without one. But now that I've been reading on them and claims of reducing recoil by 65% or more is pretty intriguing. I've found one that seems at the lower end of the price scale, but top end of the performance scale. It's made by Precision Armament and they say it's good for anything from .243 up to .338 Lapua. https://precisionarmament.com/product/m4-72-tactical-compensator/
I would be happy to hear your thoughts on that one, or if anyone has actual experience with it, . They claim 65%-75% reduction in recoil, watched a YouTube video that got results of 64.6% recoil reduction. So anyway, that's where I'm at at the moment.

[vzerone]

I appreciate all the help so far. I have no real use for a flash hider other than maybe it looks better than the thread protector. As for a muzzle brake, I had read that they make things guns significantly louder for the shooter and others standing around them, but I'm not too concerned with noise. I don't shoot at a range, and I always wear ear protection when shooting, especially with a 7mm mag. That's a pretty loud gun on it own. I'm still a little on the fence if I want to spend the money on a muzzle brake, they seem to be pretty expensive and I've gotten by for many years without one. But now that I've been reading on them and claims of reducing recoil by 65% or more is pretty intriguing. I've found one that seems at the lower end of the price scale, but top end of the performance scale. It's made by Precision Armament and they say it's good for anything from .243 up to .338 Lapua. https://precisionarmament.com/product/m4-72-tactical-compensator/
I would be happy to hear your thoughts on that one, or if anyone has actual experience with it, . They claim 65%-75% reduction in recoil, watched a YouTube video that got results of 64.6% recoil reduction. So anyway, that's where I'm at at the moment.

What caliber will you be shooting? You really don't need a muzzle brake for the small calibers. Believe me the noise will eventually bother you wherever you shoot. If you shoot from a confined bench you'd be nuts to use a break unless you're shooting some heavy recoiling caliber.

One more thing, some muzzle brake affect cast bullets, ask me how I know.

[BlackIce05]

It's a 7mm Remington Magnum, and it probably won't ever see cast bullets. If it will cooperate it'll maintain a strict diet of ELD-X bullets. It's primary use will be hunting whitetails and with any luck maybe eventually an elk or two.

[wonderwolf]

And to throw another wrench in I always use "O" rings on my thread protectors.

#1. The fine knurling on most is easy to mess up with any kind of tool
#2. They always seem to shoot loose no matter how tight you get them. One "O" ring and they stay put.

Now, Compensators and brakes work very well but think of it like a fire hose...you have to have a restriction where the gas comes out to cause the forces to work in your favor, the direction of the restrictions dictate just what direction the forces are directed...er yeah. I made my own compensator for a "race" gun awhile back and without it you can really tell the difference, the key was I had a nearly 1/2" expansion chamber and then a 1/4" muzzle that allowed the gases to dwell and "fire hose" out the top causing the muzzle to keep from rising as much and follow up shots are quicker.

[PTCSmith]

In order to get the most beneficial recoil reduction, the hole in the brake needs to be about 0.020" larger than the bullet diameter. I doubt that a 30 cal. brake will do much, if any, good for a 7mm.

[John Taylor]

I have been making brakes for about 20 years, even built a testing device to see what works. A lot of brakes on the market look great but some do not do much to help in the reduction of recoil, I tested them. The whole idea that makes a break work it to redirect the gas pressure so it does not have the rocket effect. Large holes do not do as well as small holes at redirecting the gas flow. Holes in line with the barrel will not help. Holes slanted forward will be more quiet but have less reduction in recoil. Holes slated backwards toward the shooter will be harder on the ears but not give any more reduction in recoil. I did testing on holes from 60 degrees to 120 degrees. Best is to have the holes at 90 degrees from bore. The holes I use are 3/16" and the wall thickness should be close to the same. Some people like the brake turned down to the barrel diameter but then the brake does not work as well. Exit hole should be .020" to .040" over bullet diameter, I try for .020". All my testing was done with a 22" barrel on a 308 and I was able to get 50% reduction in recoil.

[lefty o]

i mostly agree with the above post. most brakes do reduce recoil some, however there are ones that are signifigantly better than others. a quick search will net you a lot of you tube videos testing brakes, actually you can watch hours of them. i did lots of watching for my last one and came up with the SJC Titan, there are a few that run with it, but most others dont come close.

[BlackIce05]

I wondered about an O-ring, but wasn't sure how it would hold up to a hot barrel, or if it would work loose with changing weather conditions since it'll be primarily a hunting rifle. I'm certain there are better ones out there than the one I linked to, but for just testing the waters I wouldn't really want to spend the $250 or so that a lot are sold for, and that one did very well in every comparison video I could find that tested it. Having said that, I did manage to shoot the rifle Sunday and the recoil wasn't bad for a 7 lb 7mm mag, a little lead shot in the plastic stock helped balance and further reduce the recoil. I don't really need one, but I am curious to try one out just to see the difference in noise, recoil, etc., and to be honest, it would probably look better than the thread protector. Also for anyone that is curious, that thing loves my handloads with ELD-X bullets, took 2 shots to sight it in, next 3 were 3/4 inch group, next 3 were 1/2 inch group all at 100 yds. Ya just can't be that for that price tag.

[charles1990]

Brakes are 100% obsolete. To get the same recoil reduction benefit AND not wreck your ears, get a suppressor.

[Artful]

Brakes are 100% obsolete. To get the same recoil reduction benefit AND not wreck your ears, get a suppressor.

Yep, I wasn't going to post it but I will agree with this.
Although I will say a great brake will do better than a poor suppressor in my testing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLCigxaQnYE

[M-Tecs]

You don't have to notify anyone that you are taking a brake across state lines.

[Artful]

You don't have to notify anyone that you are taking a brake across state lines.

Unless your brake is on a semi-auto and you travel to NY, CA, NJ, etc

[B R Shooter]

Brakes are 100% obsolete. To get the same recoil reduction benefit AND not wreck your ears, get a suppressor.

Except you can make a brake, install a brake, and not have to do squat with the feds.

[charles1990]

You don't have to notify anyone that you are taking a brake across state lines.

Where did you ever get that idea ?

I don't traverse or go to slave states.

[Bzcraig]

The spacers or crush washers are used to index the brake. If you don't need to index it you don't need them.

This....

[barrabruce]

All I have to say about muzzle breaks is "my ears are still ringing and hurting"

Thankyou Mr short barrel muzzled braked 308 shooter sitting down next to me and blowing my hearing to bits.


I think I'll buy a 50bmg and have the perfect angled break to transfer all the energy to your ears and sneak up beside you and pass the love back to you and your mates.
:2gunsfiring_v1:

[KCSO]

Each brake will come with a set of specs to ream to the calibre desired. Most are at least 20 thou over bore diameter. Make sure your brake is reamed to spec. If it is a brake with no holes on the bottom, the best kind, make sure the holes all go up here is where you either trim it in the lathe or use the peel washer, available from Brownell's.

[vzerone]

Here's something interesting that silencerCo Maxim 50 is available for sell, but what is cool about it there is no $200 tax license, no ATF involvement at all, and all you have to be is 18 or older to buy one.

[Boolit_Head]

There are a bunch of legal challenges to the Maxim 50. I am not sure it will survive.

[vzerone]

There are a bunch of legal challenges to the Maxim 50. I am not sure it will survive.

Boggles my mind it's for black powder!!!

[BlackIce05]

As much as I would love to have a suppressor or 3, that's just not going to happen until they get rid of the stamp or license or whatever, and they become a lot more reasonably priced, which I hope happens some time in the near future. I would love to go squirrel hunting with a suppressed 22, but I won't hold my breath. I can see where the noise from a muzzle brake would be obnoxious at a range. But there's no range around me, I can shoot 300 yards basically from my front yard and 650 with a short trip to my hayfield. When shooting a rifle for precision, there's only ever 1 person shooting at a time, so I don't see noise as being a factor.

[charles1990]

Enjoy reading posts from folks who drive $50,000 trucks, have a 50" flat screen TV, $1000s in guns but are to impatient and cheap to get a suppressor.

My Savage 22 w/WRA subs is as quit as a bb gun and shoots 10 in 1" @50 yds. Can't imagine a better rig for Mr. Bushy tail !

[BlackIce05]

I don't see how that's helpful to the conversation at all.

[lefty o]

Enjoy reading posts from folks who drive $50,000 trucks, have a 50" flat screen TV, $1000s in guns but are to impatient and cheap to get a suppressor.

My Savage 22 w/WRA subs is as quit as a bb gun and shoots 10 in 1" @50 yds. Can't imagine a better rig for Mr. Bushy tail !

i dont drive a $50,000 truck, more like old pontiac. so you wanna keep running your mouth, or just head back to the closet?!!

[B R Shooter]

i dont drive a $50,000 truck, more like old pontiac. so you wanna keep running your mouth, or just head back to the closet?!!

There are some who get so eat up with the suppressor thing, they think everything should have one. Go ahead, if the paperwork for just buying a gun isn't bad enough, go apply for a suppressor permit, and EACH suppressor has to have a permit, then sit back and wait while the Feds check how many dumps you take every day. Then pay the permit fee. All for what????????

[lefty o]

oh, i think a suppressor is a great idea if you can justify the cost and hassle. i just dont like attitude from people telling you what you have or what you should do. no time for that ****!

[charles1990]

"Paranoia runs deep, into your life it will creep"

The Feds already know everything about you and stuff you forgot about.

Adding a suppressor (or 10) will not make you anymore interesting to the black helo gang than you already are.

Less BS getting a can from the Feds than getting a handgun license in any big blue state city. Also a shorter wait.

Amazing how people who don't own one are the experts on what it takes to own one.

The bill making them easier to get will never pass in a congress that probably won't even pass a tax cut AND where the Dems could well retake the Senate in 18'.

Took me 11 months and it's in the rear view. Nice to plink w/my 22 with no ear protection as well as enjoy the reduced noise and recoil in my 1911s and centerfire rifles up to/including 300 WinMag.

It's a choice, no one is telling you what you must do, just pointing out the positive aspects of ownership.

[lefty o]

amazing someone telling you that your worried about the feds, when no one said a word about that.

[BlackIce05]

lol I know right? I also can't find where anyone claimed to be an expert on suppressors. Who said I was going to buy a handgun in a "big blue city state"? I would love to have a suppressor, but I already give Uncle Sam enough money, he doesn't need a penny more. If the bill doesn't pass, then I probably won't get one. I like the idea of them, but the pros just don't outweigh the cost for me. I'm sorry if that bothers you. Also, just for the record, my "$50,000 truck" is a 91 dodge pickup I bought for $300 that was on it's way to the crusher. This is getting to be almost as bad as a blue vs green vs red thread. I didn't realize muzzle brakes were so controversial.

[John Taylor]

I thread a lot of barrels for brakes and cans and have noticed in the last couple years there is an increase in cans. As for a quiet 22, you don't need a can, just a long barrel and standard velocity ammo. They do make quiet 22 ammo but it says on the box not to shoot it in a barrel that is over 24". My 29" barrel sounds about like a Daisy BB gun.

[BlackIce05]

I didn't realize a longer barrel would make it quieter. That's interesting. I have a 10/22 I'm wanting to put an aftermarket barrel on, guess I need to focus on the longer ones.

[M-Tecs]

Where did you ever get that idea ?

I don't traverse or go to slave states.

I did not know that cans are excluded from NFA notification requirements when crossing state lines.

www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/ask-foghorn-legal-considerations-for-traveling-with-a-silencer/


Harold asks:


What are legalities of/procedures for traveling with an NFA device? What, if any, notifications to the ATF or local LE do you need to make if you are traveling with a can? I’ve heard mixed stories of guys having to tell their local ATF Offices that they are traveling with an SBR or a can but others say that’s not needed. What’s the deal?
Here’s the caveat: I AM NOT A LAWYER and this is not legal advice. However, I will happily impart to you the sum total of my understanding of the situation based on my own travels with cans and conversations with industry experts . . .
In general, when items registered under the National Firearms Act cross state lines the ATF needs to be notified. There’s a quick and easy form that needs to be submitted to the ATF called the 5320.20 or “Application to Transport Interstate or Temporarily Export Certain NFA Items.” Click here to get the form. This usually takes about a week to get back from the ATF. The form requires an address for the destination as well as the means used for transportation.
The good news is that for people who frequently cross state lines with NFA items, you can specify a date range for the travel. One of my friends who lives in VA but uses a range in West Virginia put the range address as the destination and used a one year date range. It was duly approved by the ATF. So now for the next year he’s clear to go to and from WVa as he pleases.
There’s one exception to this rule: you don’t need to bother with the paperwork for interstate travel for silencers.
Silencer owners aren’t required to fill out the paperwork for crossing state lines with cans. The only time you would fill out one of these forms is if you are moving permanently (in which case you’d check “NO” on “Firearm to be returned to the original location” question), but even then there’s some question about whether that is necessary. I still did it when I moved just to be on the safe side. So while the rules apply for machine guns and SBRs, not a soul needs to know that there’s a silencer in your gun case.
For air travel, you still need to declare the silencer as a firearm even if you’re not actually traveling with any guns. The silencer is legally considered a firearm and you can’t take it into the secured areas of an airport. So it needs a locked, hard sided case and a firearms declaration tag from the check-in counter. Same process as checking any other firearm, except you get to laugh when they ask “is it loaded?”
The only difference really between traveling with a silencer in your bag and any other firearm is that you have to be aware of which states are NFA friendly. Sure, the Firearm Owners Protection Act helps a little bit with being able to pass directly through unfriendly states if you’re going somewhere better (in theory), but I still avoid them if at all possible when I have my can in the bag.
Happy travels!

[charles1990]

It also slows down the bullet as 22RFs max out in 16".

My Savage with can is still shorter and quieter than any 29" bbl. repeating 22RF.

Ruger now makes a built in can system for the 10/22 takedown. G&A says it worked great.

Hardly "bothered" if anyone does not want a can. Muffs and plugs work fine.

My VA supplied hearing aids cost the taxpayers 6 grand (jet blast), many don't have that benefit. You can buy a lot of cans for 6 grand.

Among all the shooters who have cans in our free state, I've yet to meet one who wants to give his up, where as most outfitters ban muzzle brakes. These are the "experts" IMHO.

As Packard used to say" "Ask the man who owns one." (and yes I know there are no more Packards but a company that polished its crankshafts in ground walnut shells could hardly compete with the big 3 junk in the 50's. Price a 1932 Packard and a 1932 Caddy --- illuminating.)

Got a great Bighorn on Tuesday with a (drum roll) suppressed 300 Win Mag.