Custom mold opinions sought

[The Lord Flashheart]

Hi guys,

I've joined the forum after plundering it for information on more than a few occasions.

I am having a mold made by a custom maker here in the UK on the pattern of the "Ness Glanceproof bullet" as per threads and subsequent group buy ( that i of course missed) for my 308.

The idea behind this is to produce a subsonic load for discrete culling work but without the massive ricochet potential of solid slugs, whether jacketed or lead.

I am hoping a HP of the type above will upset enough on impact to reduce this risk, or ideally
Not even exit most of the time.

This would be for fox sized animals.

I am having little difficulty finding the precise measurement but the mold maker says he can wing it if he has a target weight to work with.

I don't want too heavy for the reasons given above, thinking around 150 grains if that sounds reasonable?

What size should the hollow point be for subsonic work?

With thanks in advance,

Flash

[Dan Cash]

I am not acquainted with the Ness bullet but would think a much lighter (100-110 grain) bullet with a massive hollow point would be less prone to ricochet than a .308/150 grain bullet. A gas check would likely be nedded to prevent blow out of the base web. A fox and similar is not hard to kill.

[The Lord Flashheart]

I am not acquainted with the Ness bullet but would think a much lighter (100-110 grain) bullet with a massive hollow point would be less prone to ricochet than a .308/150 grain bullet. A gas check would likely be nedded to prevent blow out of the base web. A fox and similar is not hard to kill.


Thanks Dan, I should have posted a link to the thread that I found and which sent me down this path: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12467-Ness-Safety-Glance-proof-boolit

I thought a gas check would be necessary from the standpoint of wanting to use as soft an alloy as possible, I hadn't considered the blow through angle.

I appreciate that a bit of experimentation in matching the hollow point to the alloy is needed and understand that having a set of different sized hollow point pins made at the same time as the mold isn't too difficult or expensive, I was hoping to find out what sort of range of sizes I should have made initially.

With thanks,

[Outpost75]

A bullet I have used with great success for subsonic loads in most .30 cal. rifles is the Accurate 31-155D, which is pictured:

205730

For a fragmenting bullet which will break up at subsonic velocities you want to cast in an alloy of 6-8 BHN such as 1:40 tin-lead and have the core pin for the nose cavity 0.65-0.7 of meplat diameter, about .120-.125" is good, having a 15 degree draft angle, absolutely necessary for the bullets to release easily off the pins in a gang mold with inset-bar type conversion, with the conical nose cavity sharply truncated having a flat bottom at 0.5" depth, to facilitate the expanded nose breaking off the shank of the bullet, the sharp corner at the base of the cavity serving as stress risers to encourage ductile fracture.

A charge of 5-6 grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder in the .308 Will give the desired result, and the load is very suitable for use in weapons fitted with "sound moderators."

[The Lord Flashheart]

Thanks Outpost,

That's a good looking design, assuming the hollow point replaces the meplat (0.18") a 15 degree per side hollow point would be come to a point at 0.34" deep, can the angle be reduced to around 10 degrees?

[longbow]

Not sure if you saw the thread started before the group buy here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?79360-Shooting-hollow-points

I was planning to get one but was concerned about the extremely deep HP and very little taper on the pins so I decided to make my own push out/cylindrical mould to try it out. I made mine slightly undersize so it could be knurled up to 0.315"/0.316" to suit my .303 Lee Enfield.

Surprisingly the pins were not a hang up issue at all and the boolits shot very well so in the end I didn't get the Mihec mould as I had my home made mould that worked well.

The old Ideal cylindrical moulds look like this:

205755

I make mine from 1 1/2" round bar... but no lube grooves so knurling is required.

The driving bands/lube grooves and bore riding section look like they are modeled after the 31141 but with a shorter wadcutter nose. Thehouseproduct did the CAD for this one so you might try PM'ing him and if he is still "connected" he may allow you to use the CAD file.

They cast at about 150 grs.

Another option I've found very good is the Mihec 316410 HP. There is a group buy on for this right mould right now. They cast at 130 grs. solid and about 125 with deep HP pin. I went plain base and have no leading issues with moderate loads and the boolits blow up in a gallon water jug with just small pieces leaving the jug. Those are cast in ACWW.

If you really want the Ness Safety Bullet you might try Accurate Molds. Tom will make what you want but he doesn't do HP pins so you would have to get an HP pin from someone else. If you went that route I'd suggest having Tom bore the bore riding nose straight through then you could get different shaped nose forms made along with varying diameters and depths of HP pin.

Longbow

[The Lord Flashheart]

Not sure if you saw the thread started before the group buy here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?79360-Shooting-hollow-points

I was planning to get one but was concerned about the extremely deep HP and very little taper on the pins so I decided to make my own push out/cylindrical mould to try it out. I made mine slightly undersize so it could be knurled up to 0.315"/0.316" to suit my .303 Lee Enfield.

Surprisingly the pins were not a hang up issue at all and the boolits shot very well so in the end I didn't get the Mihec mould as I had my home made mould that worked well.

The old Ideal cylindrical moulds look like this:

205755

I make mine from 1 1/2" round bar... but no lube grooves so knurling is required.

The driving bands/lube grooves and bore riding section look like they are modeled after the 31141 but with a shorter wadcutter nose. Thehouseproduct did the CAD for this one so you might try PM'ing him and if he is still "connected" he may allow you to use the CAD file.

They cast at about 150 grs.

Another option I've found very good is the Mihec 316410 HP. There is a group buy on for this right mould right now. They cast at 130 grs. solid and about 125 with deep HP pin. I went plain base and have no leading issues with moderate loads and the boolits blow up in a gallon water jug with just small pieces leaving the jug. Those are cast in ACWW.

If you really want the Ness Safety Bullet you might try Accurate Molds. Tom will make what you want but he doesn't do HP pins so you would have to get an HP pin from someone else. If you went that route I'd suggest having Tom bore the bore riding nose straight through then you could get different shaped nose forms made along with varying diameters and depths of HP pin.

Longbow



Thanks for the reply Longbow, much there to digest.

I'm based in the UK and Mihec would have been a great option for me at the time, unfortuantely he has a minimum quantity for custom orders and so is unable to produce this mold for me just at the moment.

There is an old boy over here ( a proper old dude in cavernous-garden-shed-full-of-machine-tools type set up) who is so old school he doesn't even have a cell phone let alone an email address and makes brass molds for hollow based Minie type projectiles for muzzle-loading muskets By the name of Charles Higginbottom.

His molds are used by the muzzle loading match shooters over here and his work is excellent from what I am able to see.

https://full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3414&start=10

The only trouble is that one has to communicate with him by mail and ideally in cursive... :D

I would therefore like to have the dimensions to make his life easier and in that regard thank you for mentioning the name of the chap who did the cad drawing. I would have to print it out and send it to him together with a cheque (When was the last time you paid for something with a cheque enclosed with ahand written letter? :D)

If I could get the mold and pins made by the same chap and support a British business in the process I would rather do that as the old skills are dying out and worth preserving IMO.

I must confess to not understand how that ideal mold works in respect of making it idal for paper patching? What am I missing?

[Gamsek]

I am not acquainted with the Ness bullet but would think a much lighter (100-110 grain) bullet with a massive hollow point would be less prone to ricochet than a .308/150 grain bullet. A gas check would likely be nedded to prevent blow out of the base web. A fox and similar is not hard to kill.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/462fdc89648fc9ed4cfd18bb35364d27.jpg

MP-Molds version of H&G#38, Ness safety bullet, massive HP will make this bullet to totally disintegrate, I have found just small pieces of lead- shoot at subsonic velocity and without GC.

FP version weights 170grs and if cast with soft pure lead with some tin, it gives nice deformation-it lost only 3grshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/b2f6060f336ab16f72625c2187739886.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/4b4b8e87d59a9c6f0ce311f83f454d59.jpg

My first group with FP version, no GC. 50meters from Ruger ranch 300blk

[The Lord Flashheart]

Very encouraging results Gamsek, thanks for posting.

What alloy do you use for them?

[Gamsek]

Very encouraging results Gamsek, thanks for posting.

What alloy do you use for them?

For the "red" HP ones I used wheel weights (fragmentation).

For the "blue " FP I used pure lead with some tin.

I use few HP versions my MP Molds in 308" cal.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/d911e431577e84ce6f2b51ac1f93f964.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/82054b500c49e38eb86d322fecebfd11.jpg

[The Lord Flashheart]

Again, very interesting thank you.

What would happen if you cast the HPs from the soft lead, would they not fragment through mechanical shear?

[Gamsek]

Again, very interesting thank you.

What would happen if you cast the HPs from the soft lead, would they not fragment through mechanical shear?

I tried different combinations, and for my subsonic velocity I settled on pure with some 5%tin and I got this205770

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/a769e56c7b9a0b539224adbc46d0e3fa.jpg

Yes, and i got roe buck, chamois and fox with cast this year

[The Lord Flashheart]

Great perfomormance, did you try the alloy with the Ness design as well the ones above please?

[runfiverun]

if you want them to break up you need antimony in the alloy.
it allows the lead to flow and shear [actually the antimony matrix shears and breaks but it allows the lead to go apart in those spots]

if you used a design like Outpost shows but with a massive hollow point down to the crimp groove it would weigh about 125-130grs.
the little roll on the nose will help feeding and promote better break-up because of the force exerted on the smaller area.

[Gamsek]

Great perfomormance, did you try the alloy with the Ness design as well the ones above please?

I did not try pure+tin with Ness safety bullet and massive HP-yet.

I did try pure lead with FP (reversed pins in the same mold to get flat point) and, as I said I got nice deformation.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/6f9ee0a32a953570f64ce3b870bc87a2.jpg

If you want fragmentation follow Runfiverun's advice, I would suggest wheelweights and HP, also really deep HP can fragment soft alloy at subsonic. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/a1d5ad9c6b7a3398edde2ac62269f1ab.jpg 311410 by MP Molds

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/d68b45fb0a856e0e4e21b42c83d573f7.jpg

See group on the far right, least penetration in wet paper and fragmentation with deep cavity/long pins as in photo, numbers in cm

If you need more info PM and we can talk.

[longbow]

The Ideal Cylindrical moulds are just that... bottom pour cylindrical cavities with a nose form that pushes the boolit out. That nose form can be changed in shape and with or without HP pins plus the mould can throw different weight boolits by adjusting the nose form up or down. Mine work very well though are single cavity. I have been planning to make a two or possibly 4 cavity but haven't gotten to it yet.

By design a gas check shank can't be added but I've had no trouble with PB and moderate velocities in my guns.

They are ideal (no pun intended...) for paper patching too.

Alternately the Mihec 311410 for standard .30 cal. (as Gamsek shows above) or 316410 for .303 is an excellent little boolit. One drawback is they do not feed well through my Lee Enfields ~ too short. The Ness does feed well.

I believe I can put together dimensions if you want to get a mould made by your local mould maker. Are you looking for a boolit for .308" groove or .303" bore (0.312"+ groove) and what weight? The Ness ran 150 grs. but has extremely deep HP so seems to totally disintegrate when it hits something. Nothing wrong with lighter though.

Let me know if you are interested as I have both 2D and 3D capabilities and I have many boolit designs tucked away so could produce something in pretty short order. I'm not looking to charge you either. You can owe me a beer if I ever make it to the UK.

Longbow

[The Lord Flashheart]

I did not try pure+tin with Ness safety bullet and massive HP-yet.

I did try pure lead with FP (reversed pins in the same mold to get flat point) and, as I said I got nice deformation.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/6f9ee0a32a953570f64ce3b870bc87a2.jpg

If you want fragmentation follow Runfiverun's advice, I would suggest wheelweights and HP, also really deep HP can fragment soft alloy at subsonic. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/a1d5ad9c6b7a3398edde2ac62269f1ab.jpg 311410 by MP Molds

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171013/d68b45fb0a856e0e4e21b42c83d573f7.jpg

See group on the far right, least penetration in wet paper and fragmentation with deep cavity/long pins as in photo, numbers in cm

If you need more info PM and we can talk.

I have rather embarrassingly only just realised who you are… :D

Would it be possible to order your version of the Ness Bullet through your webpage?

[The Lord Flashheart]

The Ideal Cylindrical moulds are just that... bottom pour cylindrical cavities with a nose form that pushes the boolit out. That nose form can be changed in shape and with or without HP pins plus the mould can throw different weight boolits by adjusting the nose form up or down. Mine work very well though are single cavity. I have been planning to make a two or possibly 4 cavity but haven't gotten to it yet.

By design a gas check shank can't be added but I've had no trouble with PB and moderate velocities in my guns.

They are ideal (no pun intended...) for paper patching too.

Alternately the Mihec 311410 for standard .30 cal. (as Gamsek shows above) or 316410 for .303 is an excellent little boolit. One drawback is they do not feed well through my Lee Enfields ~ too short. The Ness does feed well.

I believe I can put together dimensions if you want to get a mould made by your local mould maker. Are you looking for a boolit for .308" groove or .303" bore (0.312"+ groove) and what weight? The Ness ran 150 grs. but has extremely deep HP so seems to totally disintegrate when it hits something. Nothing wrong with lighter though.

Let me know if you are interested as I have both 2D and 3D capabilities and I have many boolit designs tucked away so could produce something in pretty short order. I'm not looking to charge you either. You can owe me a beer if I ever make it to the UK.

Longbow


Thank you for the explanantion and also your very kind offer. I am slowly muddling my way through this casting business...

If Gemsek cannot make the mold then I would be very glad to take you up on your kind offer of design assistance.

[Gamsek]

Guys, I (Gamsek) am just a very happy user of MP Molds and also very lucky to live 1.5hrs drive from his shop. I don’t make molds, I use them[emoji6] I believe many mold makers make great products but for me it’s the easiest way to use MiHec molds. I also believe they are the best HP molds.

MiHec or Miha Prevec from MP Molds is known here as:
MiHec.

I had a privilege to meet him in his shop few times.

I offered my advice since there is so many to explain to a new caster and Ness safety bullet mold demands a little bit of attention when casting because of very long pins.

Since you live in UK I can send you mine Ness mold to test it. It was a special run and I don’t think it will be produced soon.

[The Lord Flashheart]

Ah, apologies for my presumption and the therefore slightly premature pm ! :D

I am very grateful for you adivce and it has been immensley helpful.

I am also very grateful for your kind offer of the loan of the mold but couldn't bear the idea of it somehow getting lost in the post or perhaps even damaging it in my inexperience.

[Outpost75]

Thanks Outpost,

That's a good looking design, assuming the hollow point replaces the meplat (0.18") a 15 degree per side hollow point would be come to a point at 0.34" deep, can the angle be reduced to around 10 degrees?

You cannot "replace" the meplat to a sharp wire edge, because the lead will not flow into the narrow crevice. That's why I suggested that the core pin for the HP cavity be about 0.65-0.70 of the meplat diameter, which works out to about .120-.125".

I have found in fooling with several custom molds, that is the perimeter of the meplat remaining around the HP cavity is less than 1/10 of bullet diameter that the nose will fill out and resulting castings will be poor and irregular. This is ESPECIALLY true if you are using scrap alloy such as wheelweights diluted with soft lead.

1:40 or 1:30 tin-lead without other alloys additions will give the best fill-out without hardening the bullets appreciably, as is necessary for subsonic velocity expansion.

I have used a 15 degree draft angle on several gang molds and the castings release easily and production is unimpaired from an unmodified gang mold. A sharper draft angle such as 10 degrees included angle should also work fine. Some of the fellows who use cast pre lead HP bullets in large caliber air rifles use an eliptically-shaped cavity and this also works well IF the shape is controlled carefully to ensure that castings do not "cling" to the core pin, but release of their own weight when the mold handles are tapped lightly.