32RF to Centerfire How low to go.

[Lostinidaho]

I have a Stevens Favorite in .32. It was a rimfire. I would reload with .32 long colt brass drilled out to take a .22 ramset cartridge (green #3). I shoot a heeled bullet at .87 gr. It chronographed at 1050 avg. It was a hoot to shoot.

However the brass would get damaged when driving out the spent .22 cartridge. And the brass is expensive. So for ease of reloading, I had a talented gunsmith relocate the firing pin to center fire on an extra breech block. He did a great job. Now I need to work up a load.

I am not trying to get more power, velocity etc. I am just trying to duplicate the original load.

The ramsets cartridges have about 2.2 gr of a fine grain powder.
205704

How low should I start. 1 gr, 1.5 gr I have and like trailboss also unique.
Your thoughts are appreciated

Thanks in advance

[Jedman]

I would start with at least 3 grs. of unique and see if it fires reliably. I would prefer a faster powder but unique may work fine. TB may work fine also, I see you are just looking for a safe load that shoots well. Stevens Favorite's are not very strong so keep track of how loose your gun is,
sloppy barrel fit to reciever, lever droop, ability to wiggle breech block with action closed ect.
If gun gets looser you will need to rebuild it and cut your load back.

Jedman

[Outpost75]

About 1.5-1.7 grains of Bullseye is more nearly correct.

[Chev. William]

Look at .25ACP Load recipes for Starting Loads. The 25ACP in the Typical .25 Stevens Barrel yields around 800 to 850 fps so Should give slower velocity in the .32 Case and with your heavier Bullet.
Work up Your Load slowly and Stay below 1124FPS in your "Favorite".
By The Way, What model year is yours? I have both 1894 and 1915 Model years and The 1915 is somewhat stronger action than the 1894 or Earlier, 1886, year Model actions. You can look on "Wisner's" web Pages for descriptions and Parts. "Muzzleloader Builder Supply" also has action screws made of Stronger Alloy steel for Replacements.

Also, you CAN resize .32 S&W Long cases down to .32 Colt Body Diameters with a multiple step Swaging process that reduces the diameter about .008" per step.
.32 S&W Long, or .32 H&R Magnum, empty Brass is easier to find than .32 Colt Long Brass.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Lostinidaho]

This one is a model year 1915. When I work up loads I always start slow, but these loads have so little powder in them.

Thanks for the heads up on the action screws.

Hodgdon shows a load for the .32 S&W long as follows for a 90 gr bullet
Minimum Load Trail Boss 1.5gr 599 ft/s 5,900 CUP
Maxium Load Trail Boss 2.0 730 ft/s 8,100 CUP

Hodgdon shows a load for the .25 ACP as follows for a 50 gr bullet
Minimum Load Titegroup 1.1 gr 657ft/s 14,500 CUP
Maxium Load Titegroup 1.3 gr 752 ft/s 17,200 CUP

[John Taylor]

Someplace I found that the original load for the 32 rimfire was 9 grains of black powder. What Outpost75 says would be the place to start.

[pietro]

.

When I converted my solid frame .32RF Remington #4 rolling block to CF (E-Z-Peazy), I found that the commercial .32 Short Colt (Winchester makes a couple of runs a year of them) fit the RF chamber readily, working out best, both as ready-made ammo, and as a source of brass for reloading.


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[marlinman93]

I;d suggest you look at loading manuals for light loads in .32 S&W Long. Numerous loads can be found that are in the 700fps or lower range, and would be more appropriate in a .32RF converted favorite. RCBS Cast Bullet manual lists 2.3 grs. of Unique with a 98 gr. cast bullet at 708 fps, which is closer to what I'd feel comfortable with in a Favorite's weaker action.

[pietro]

.

FWIW - The .32 S&W Long would not chamber in my #4 RB's .32RF chamber, whereas the .32 Short Colt readily chambered, w/o re-chambering. (why I used the Short Colt).

I would suggest that folks considering a .32RF to a .32 CF first try the prospective CF cartridge prior to making that decision.

I was fortunate in that a friendly funshop with a plentiful ammo supply allowed me to experimentally hand chamber various single .32CF cartridges from their stock in the .32RF chamber.


.

[Lostinidaho]

Just got back from the range.

Three test loads. 5 shots each. Powder Trail Boss
Averages as follows.

1.6 grs 737ft/sec
1.8 grs 795ft/sec
2.0 grs 874ft/sec

Now I need to load a bunch and test for accuracy.

Subsonic shots are so quite. Father and son next to me was shooting one of those loud .22RF :bigsmyl2:

New centerfire breech block is awesome. All strikes nice and centered. The gunsmith did a great job.

I read in cartridges of the world that the original cartridge was 12 to 13gr of black. I would like to try Pyrodex, but I don't think 12gr would fit. The back puff of smoke would be cool. Like a mini 50-45-400 rolling block carbine

[Chev. William]

This one is a model year 1915. When I work up loads I always start slow, but these loads have so little powder in them.

Thanks for the heads up on the action screws.

Hodgdon shows a load for the .32 S&W long as follows for a 90 gr bullet
Minimum Load Trail Boss 1.5gr 599 ft/s 5,900 CUP
Maxium Load Trail Boss 2.0 730 ft/s 8,100 CUP

Hodgdon shows a load for the .25 ACP as follows for a 50 gr bullet
Minimum Load Titegroup 1.1 gr 657ft/s 14,500 CUP
Maxium Load Titegroup 1.3 gr 752 ft/s 17,200 CUP

That is correct and is why I suggested that .25ACP recipes would make a good place to start for your .32 Long Cartridge. the Increase in Propellant Volume reduces the MAP so it is Safe to begin from that level.
and you have several propellant choices form various Manufacturers.
Remember also you are working with a Light Rifle and work up slowly while measuring Velocity and don't go 'pushing beyond about 1200fps in your Stevens 1915 Action; preferably stopping about 1124fps for long Action Life.
If you want more Accuracy, then look around 900 to 1000fps at muzzle.
Yes the Trajectory will be curved but it will be more consistent as there will be no time spent in the Transonic speed zone, which has some 'weird' effects on bullet POI.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[marlinman93]

.

FWIW - The .32 S&W Long would not chamber in my #4 RB's .32RF chamber, whereas the .32 Short Colt readily chambered, w/o re-chambering. (why I used the Short Colt).

I would suggest that folks considering a .32RF to a .32 CF first try the prospective CF cartridge prior to making that decision.

I was fortunate in that a friendly funshop with a plentiful ammo supply allowed me to experimentally hand chamber various single .32CF cartridges from their stock in the .32RF chamber.


.

Two completely different cartridges, and as you discovered not interchangeable! The .32 Long or .32 Short would fit in the gun, but .32 S&W Long or .32 S&W Short will not fit. The S&W .32 uses a standard straight bullet, so the case is larger diameter. The .32 Long and .32 Short use a heeled bullet, so cases are the same diameter as the bullet, and much smaller than the S&W cases.

[Lostinidaho]

Another trip to the range. With another load.
2.2 grains of Trail Boss 5 shot average of 1024 ft/sec

At 50 yards it was easy to hit a 6" steel target. I love that sound. So satisfying.

Next step is to try out a shot load. I have a .32 smooth bore shot barrel.

[Chev. William]

Lostinidaho,
Seems like you have a Good Stevens 'Favorite' Trail Boss recipe There with a Measured Velocity Average of 1024fps.
I am guessing you Are using about a 90 grain heeled bullet.
If You are firing it out a Smooth-bore barrel the 6" at 50 yards is reasonable but would tighten up with a rifled Barrel.

Developing a Recipe for a Shot Charge may go Quicker with this Base working recipe IF you can use similar weight of Shot charge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[uscra112]

The .32 Colt is the correct analogue for the .32 rimfire conversions. The S&W case is too large in diameter.

My load for .32 Long Colt in rifles is usually 2.0 grains Bullseye when using the correct 87 grain heeled bullet, Lyman 299153.

Bullets and brass available on Gunbroker. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/707298200 and http://www.gunbroker.com/item/706868940

Tenmile has a useful essay on the .32 Colt cartridge in his listing.

[marlinman93]

The .32 Colt is the correct analogue for the .32 rimfire conversions. The S&W case is too large in diameter.



Although the cases are identical, the .32 Long RF and .32 Long are not the same cartridge as the .32 Long Colt. The .32 Long Colt uses smaller diameter bullets than the .32 Long or .32 Long RF. These latter two cartridges date back earlier than the .32 Long Colt and are usually found to have .312"@ bullet diameters. The .32 Long Colt was loaded with smaller .308"-.309" bullets that will rattle down the bore of older guns made for the larger cartridge.
I've shot a bunch of the smaller .32 Colt ammo in my old guns to get the brass, but they rarely shoot well.

[NoZombies]

The .32 long colt started life with the heeled bullet, and then was later loaded with the hollow based bullet of smaller diameter, usually around .301-.303. I forget when the transition was, but they were both called the .32 long colt. (either inside or outside lubed, depending on the bullet design) The heeled bullet cartridges used a shorter case, with the inside lubed hollow base bullets using a longer case, both having the same basic loaded OAL. The statement that the hollow based bullets rarely shoot well is spot on by my experience as well.

I've got molds of both designs, and the heeled bullets generally shoot better in reloads as well, but the inside lubed hollow base bullets are cleaner in the pocket. Both need to be cast from as soft a lead as possible for anything resembling accuracy in my guns.

[marlinman93]

I cast with a very old Ideal tong tool designed to drop the larger heeled bullets for the .32 Long. Unfortunately those early heeled bullets have no lube grooves, so they can't be lubed with my lubrisizer, or pan lubed either. I lube mine by putting them in an old Tupperware bowl and squirting Lee liquid alox on the bullets and shaking the bowl until they're all coated.
The liquid alox method works well, and haven't had any leading issues in my Ballard with the light loads I shoot in it.

[Chev. William]

Accurate Molds does list several Heeled Bullets in the .311" diameter area, both Inside Lube Groove And Outside Lube Groove designs. I use their 90 grain Heeled design with an Inside (on the heel) lube Groove and they do take 'skiving off' the excess lube from a Typical lubricator. alternatively they Can be tumble lubed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Lostinidaho]

I am confused. I thought I understood inside and outside lube grooves. But a heeled bullet with a inside lube groove. Does that mean on the heeled portion there is is lube groove. A picture would be nice

The bullets I bought are heeled and smooth. The lube groves are in the exposed bullet. I guess it doesn't matters for me, I just want to get smarter. I just use white label alox substitute. I do want to buy a mold in the future.

[marlinman93]

Inside lube groove always puzzled me also. I've pulled a lot of heeled bullets and never seen any signs of lube on the heeled portion, and can't imagine how any lube would do anything on the heel area. Never have seen a heeled .32 with outside lube grooves,, but I haven't custom ordered a mold for this caliber. Tom at Accurate always has good molds.

[NoZombies]

The original heeled bullet molds that I have are made with what I would call lube "ripples" on the body of the bullet like very shallow lube grooves. I've never used the heeled bullet designs with the lube groove inside the case. I've always used a tumble lube for the heeled bullets I've loaded and shot. I think a lot of the original factory ammo had swaged bullets with something like 'knurling' to allow the wax type lube to adhere. Much like .22 rimfire ammo.

[Chev. William]

Inside lube groove always puzzled me also. I've pulled a lot of heeled bullets and never seen any signs of lube on the heeled portion, and can't imagine how any lube would do anything on the heel area. Never have seen a heeled .32 with outside lube grooves,, but I haven't custom ordered a mold for this caliber. Tom at Accurate always has good molds.

Accurate Mold # 31-090A on "http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php" is an example of a Heeled .32 Colt Bullet with a Lube groove on the heel.

My Mold is at "Matt's Bullets" for Casting Commercial Bullets as I do not have personal Casting equipment.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[marlinman93]

I'll have to dig out my Ideal mold and take a picture of the inside. I may also have some bullets here already cast from that mold, and if so I'll post a picture of those also.

edit-Found the cast heeled bullets I have are for .38 Long, and not .32 Long. But I did surprisingly find my old Ideal tool marked "32 L" quickly, so took a couple pictures. The bullet mold does show a very tiny lube groove, but it's on the rounded portion of the bullet nose, so might barel contact the lands, but not the grooves. It's also small enough to not hold any more lube than the liquid alox would fill it with. Here's the images:

https://i.imgur.com/9hJdG8kl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/HqVvXrWl.jpg

[uscra112]

Although the cases are identical, the .32 Long RF and .32 Long are not the same cartridge as the .32 Long Colt. The .32 Long Colt uses smaller diameter bullets than the .32 Long or .32 Long RF. These latter two cartridges date back earlier than the .32 Long Colt and are usually found to have .312"@ bullet diameters. The .32 Long Colt was loaded with smaller .308"-.309" bullets that will rattle down the bore of older guns made for the larger cartridge.
I've shot a bunch of the smaller .32 Colt ammo in my old guns to get the brass, but they rarely shoot well.

My original Bay State rifle (circa 1887) chambered for the centerfire .32 Colt takes a cartridge with a case length of .820", using the 299153 heeled bullet, which weighs about 87 grains. According to "tenmile", the fellow who sells .32 Long Colt brass and bullets on Gunbroker, his Marlins also take a case that is .820" long. These are virtually identical to the .32 Long rimfire, (rifles for which which I also have) the difference being that rimfire cartridges were loaded with an 80 grain bullet, and the rimfire case is only .800 long (after firing). This is the cartridge which I load with 2 grains of Bullseye.

You can see for sale on Gunbroker a box of .32 Colt cartridges pictured with the heeled bullet, and clearly labeled .32 Long Colt. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709049317 No question that a .32 Long Colt with heeled bullet did exist.

It is on this basis that I suggested the .32 Long Colt centerfire as the analogue to the .32 Long Rimfire. It certainly worked out perfectly when I converted a Hopkins and Allen 932, (rollstamped .32 Long RF), to centerfire. I also have a near-mint Stevens Favorite in .32 Long RF, and the Colt cartridge fits in perfectly.

Now, Barnes depicts a ".32 Colt" cartridge having an inside-lubed bullet, but lists neither the case length nor the bullet diameter. I have never even seen any of this ammo. It should have a case length of about .95", and of course the bullet O.D. is much smaller. How it was labelled for sale, I haven't a clue. For all I know, it might have also been called .32 Long Colt, to add to the confusion. But if it was, it wasn't the first or only one.

[marlinman93]

I've got something over 1,000 rounds of .32 Long, .32 Long Colt, and .32 Short Colt. Plus a bunch of .32 RF Long and Short. Guess I need to get out my kinetic puller and donate one of each that I have to determine what all the variations might be, and list them by the makers.
Have half dozen boxes of new unprimed old stock Remington .32 Long brass also, so I'll measure those too.

[uscra112]

I've got something over 1,000 rounds of .32 Long, .32 Long Colt, and .32 Short Colt. Plus a bunch of .32 RF Long and Short. Guess I need to get out my kinetic puller and donate one of each that I have to determine what all the variations might be, and list them by the makers.
Have half dozen boxes of new unprimed old stock Remington .32 Long brass also, so I'll measure those too.

That would be very interesting. Thanks !

[Lostinidaho]

Malinman--Good looking mold. A two cavity would be faster but the vintage look is good. The bullet shape is nice. The lube grooves are small.

It would be good to see all the different boolits and their weights.

[marlinman93]

Marlinman--Good looking mold. A two cavity would be faster but the vintage look is good. The bullet shape is nice. The lube grooves are small.

It would be good to see all the different boolits and their weights.

I don't think Ideal ever made a 2 cavity mold in their old tong tools?
Yes, I'll include bullet weights also when I get the data from the cartridges I pull apart. Try to get some pictures also.

[Chev. William]

I received my order of Matt's Bullets Saturday and plan to open the box Wednesday.
This is a 1000 piece order of Lyman #257420 65 Grain Nominal bullets and 1000 piece order of Accurate Mold #311090A 90 grain nominal Heeled Bullets.
The Heeled ones were ordered Lubed and will have a film of Lube covering The Heel and filling The lube groove in the heel. I have found the 'film' scrapes off as the bullet is seated in my .32 Colt sized cases. I then Crimp them using a Collet Crimp die I bought from Old West Moulds.

Best Regards,
Chev. William