How hard is too hard?

[Bill*]

Okay- I mixed some w/ws,tin,and antimony rich lead. I cast 5-6 hundred 230 gr. tumble lube Lee .45 boolits. These were water dropped and now read around 17.9 BHN on a Lee tester. Are they too hard for target loads over 4gr. of bullseye? Next time should I air cool them or lighten up my mix ratio? I seem to recall reading BHN 12 to 14 being about the right hardness for my purposes. If they're too hard, what will be the result, leading, innaccuracy, or what? If needed, could I try "annealing" them in the oven? (I bet the LLA will freshen the kitchen air[smilie=1:)Thanks in advance for any thoughts you guys may have......Bill

[crowbeaner]

You may want to up your powder charge or use another powder to get the velocity up. Extra hard boolits may stick if not driven to standard velocity levels. Mousefarts and low powder charges plus too little lube equals stuck boolit and possibly a KB if you're shooting fast.

[kooz]

I have shot the LEE 230TC @ 16BHN with 5gr Bullseye, this is a very accurate load. Good luck

[35remington]

Assuming that you are talking about the .45 ACP, the 4 grains Bullseye should result in a nice mild load that functions well with standard springs but does not fling the cases a great distance from the gun. Realistically, anything from range scrap upward should be plenty hard enough, and you may see some gascutting with your load. I personally would see heavily alloyed mixes as being wasteful of expensive materials for the .45 at mild to standard velocities.

Truthfully, the .45 ACP doesn't need anything much harder than wheelweights.

[Bill*]

Thank you all. At least I guess I'm on the right track.
Yes 35remington-.45ACP, I'm newbie and I started playing"mad scientist" with my stash-think I'll back off the expensive stuff till I see trouble filling out or something.
Crowbeaner: I wasn't trying for particularly mild loads-Lees Modern Reloading 2nd edition lists 4 gr. of Bullseye as both the starting and "Do Not Exceed" loads (?) Not a lot of room for error there thou, is there?. Is that normal with other powders? This load lists as 810fps @ 13,900psi. I bought a bunch of Bullseye to reload .45, 9mm, And .32 as it appeared to be a good "all around" for my needs. It's all I have for now. Using two coats thinned LLA on all. Anyway, I will know more when I get these loaded and go to the range, but I didn't want to have to pull a bunch back apart so I figured I'd ask first. THANX....Bill

[454PB]

Not that it matters, but you will see an increase in hardness over the next 6 months to a year. They should work fine.

[Bill*]

Thanx Kooz; Is that a book load or just what works for you? Using the book I can only find that load listed for 230gr. jacketed bullets. Reason I ask is I don't yet have the OAL thing figured out (so I'm just following the book) but know it relates to pressure. Maybe you're loading them to a different length? Or maybe Lee and the "One Book/One Caliber" manual are conservative?
And thanx 454PB...Hopefully they wont last long enough to matter:mrgreen:

[kooz]

Don't remember where the load came from, I have been using 5gr Bullseye under 230gr lead bullets for years, it is a pretty common load.

[runfiverun]

if you wanna push those to about 2200 fps or you got a nice alloy there.

[billyb]

Don't remember where the load came from, I have been using 5gr Bullseye under 230gr lead bullets for years, it is a pretty common load.

the 5 grains of bullseye is a very good load for the 1911, just finnished loading 2500 rounds of 230 fmj1000,and 1500 230 lrn for my three 1911's. don't have the book handy but i doubled checked the load in my book before i started. Bill

[Bill*]

Thanx....Maybe after I see how these shoot I'll work my loads up a bit at a time. I must say I'm enjoying this casting/reloading more than I thought. I started for the economics and now find it a hobby unto itself. All the help here is fantastic too. THANK YOU ALL!!!!!.....Bill

[Jim]

I'm with Crow. I started messin' around with hardening alloys a few years back and had quite a few "false squibs". Enough powder(just enough) for a "standard" BHN boolit, but not enough for the hardness I was shootin'. Fortunately, I had enough sense to use a revolver and go slow. I had to dowel & mallet quite a few stuck slugs outa' the forcing cone.:roll:

[Bret4207]

That super hard alloy you have might be the ticket for a shallow grooved barrel, but for a "standard" barrel it might be a bit of a waste of that nice stuff. While I understand the modern sales lines recommend "HARD" alloy, I recommend starting with plain old wheel weights and IF you run into problems add a little tin. For handguns under 12-1400 fps in calibers larger than 32 it should work well. You might consider setting those boolits aside as enrichment alloy. That stuff is expensive and getting harder to find. Water quenching WW alloy can get you 3-5 points of hardness and letting then sit for 2 weeks you'll see a huge difference too.

Don't get sold on the "HARD" idea. Fit is more important than BHn IMO. Slug your barrel and size you nice cheap WW boolit .001-.002 over groove size and see if it doesn't work.

[TAWILDCATT]

the standard target load for 45 acp was 200 gr LSWC with 3.5 grs bullseye. I use 3.6 of 700X ,my gun was tight and needed that load to function.I still use the load.
range lead and WW not hardned.clean at end of season.no leading.that load function a AMT long slide as issued and standard 1911.:coffee:[smilie=1:

[EMC45]

My load for a 45 is 230 gr. Lee TC run through a .452 die in the 4500, over 4.5 gr. Bullseye. Pure WWs not quenched or hardened.

[gon2shoot]

It dont matter if it's not totally hard as long as it still shoots. [smilie=1:

[Ricochet]

You aren't hijacking this thread into a discussion of ****** and such, are you?

[cbrick]

Bill, listen to Bret4207, he knows of what he speaks.

Straight clip-on WW air cooled will be plenty hard for such 45 laods. In the velocity range of 800-850 fps I even use stick-on WW HP's with no leading @ 6 BHN.

Too hard ranks right up there with poor bullet fit for leading and inaccuracy problems. Slug the barrel so that you know what your working with and simply make the bullet fit the gun rather than trying to make it worse by using a "hard cast" alloy.

Harder alloys and HT have their place but the 45 ACP isn't one of them. The term "hard cast" should be banned from CB literature, it clouds the issue for new casters and purchasers of commercial cast bullets. It's rarely needed and it usually creats it's own problems.

Rick

[Bill*]

That's good to read. Now I'll be able to save that Tin and the Antimonied (is that a word?) Lead for something special as I get into it more. Next Batch I'll try straight W/W and save the stick-on ones also to mix with the other stock as need develops. THANX GUYS......Bill

[38 Super Auto]

If you get leading just past the chamber in the barrel, your alloy is too hard for the velocity and/pressure you are getting with this load. I noticed this on some powder puff loads I made for super. I was loading an extra extra hard bullet/sized .356 over 4 grains of BE in 38 super. I got a spatter type of leading just past the chamber that looked like fouling, but couldn't brush it out.

Didn't see this leading issue with same bullet/sized .356 with 6.2gr WSF in 38 super.

I agree with other guys, WW or WW+Pb mixture, sized correctly for your rig will give you good results in 45 ACP.

[Lloyd Smale]

i disagree with the softer is better crowd. Some of the most accurate loads in my 1911s has been with straight lineotype. Id still use it for competion if it was easier to get but anymore i treasure it like gold. Smith 25s are even more apt to shoot better with harder bullets. Like brett said though it just doesnt make economical sense to use it for low velocity bullets anymore. I get by with ww and a little tin. Guys will argue that a 1/2 differnce in group size at 25 yards doesnt mean much even in competition but to me its a mental thing. I just shoot better if it know my gun is shooting at its best. As to leading ive shot straing linotype bullets a 600 fps in all my 45acps and have never had leading problems with them. If your gun is leading doing that you need to look at your gun or at your bullet size. If a bullet is sized properly it will seal the barrel.

[cajun shooter]

Leading problems start alot faster with too hard of an alloy than too soft. Purchase the Lyman lead casting book for a ton of info and all the members on this site for over 100 years of hands on casting. I shoot SASS and use 45 COLTS cast with straight WW and have no problems. The book has the different lead mixes. Lyman #2 is 15BHN and is good for alot faster than you are shooting. Take care and have fun

[35remington]

I gotta admit that I've had good results with hard cast 200 LSWC's and generous amounts of good lube like Lloyd has but in my experience the Lee tumble lube bullets don't carry the right lube of the amount and sort that can deal with overhard bullets.

Try looking at the recovered Lee 230 TL bullets made out of the wrong alloy using LLA over something like 3.8 Clays after they've been fired. Severe gascutting and leading is the result.

I think the more generous single lube or multiple deep lube groove designs carrying more and different lubricant deal with with gascutting issues better in hard bullets.

Not to say the TL designs are bad - they're certainly not - just that you must have to work around them sometimes. I have quite a few TL moulds myself now.

[Stork]

Having lurked here long enough, I figured what the heck.
Some history, I've shot lead for over 25 years but only started semi seriously casting when I started shooting Bullseye competitively about 7 years ago. I quickly found the quality of the bullet bases I could buy locally ranged from pathetic to lousy. suffice it to say they were blasting quality only and not capable of anything better than 2" at 25 yards. Prior to that I threw together any lead I came across for my 41 mag. Suffice it to say the results were a direct result of the care I put into my casting.

I did some research and found out about the old Hensley and Gibbs molds and picked up a couple of 4 cavity 130's and a couple of 4 cavity 68's. I also came into possession of a couple of tons of reclaimed range scrap (96%), wheel weights (2%) and linotype (2%). I size them on a Star lubrisizer with soft Thompson lube.

I started with a Lee 10# bucket, then went to a 20# Lee bottom pour, then an old 12# SAECO (which didn't last very long) and finally got a 20# RCBS (what a machine).

I do not have a Brinell tester but have had my bullets checked with someone who does. The water quenched ones trend to 16-18. I have found that if I put a hard crimp (.463-.465) the H&G 130's group extremely well at short line (50' and 25 yards). The H&G 68's will group 2-3" at the long line (50 yards) (all loads Ransom Rest tested). Short line load is 3.5 gr Bullseye and the 130; long line is 4.3 gr WST (.468) and the 68's. these are shot out of a customized Springfield with a slide mounted dot.

During my stages of load development I tried the Star swaged 185 gr HP. With a light crimp they shot under 2" at 50 yds. However I felt I could develop my own bullet casting technique to make a bullet that would shoot as good.

I have found, as others have suggested, that the lyman book is a treasure of information. I have also been able to glean much information from other, more experienced casters who are willing to share their mistakes and successes.

FWIW

Al (Stork)

[oldroger]

Last month I found a box of 50 .45acp that I loaded in 1958. Box said: Ideal 200gr (looks like the 452488) with 4.0gr Bullseye. I had two squibs out of the box. Very smokey, I imagine it was Alox lube.
Over the years I moved up to 5.2 gr bullseye for some reason.
I have switched to red dot and VV 340 in my search for cleaner loads. But I too think that hard is not necessary in even 900 fps 200gr 45 loads. I think cutting WW with half soft lead and adding tin gets me where I want to go.

[Bill*]

I would like to say thanks to all of you for your input and suggestions. I intend to digest it all and use it in the future loadings. I've said it before but it needs repeating....THIS PLACE (AND ALL OF YOU) ARE FANTASTIC!!!! Thanx for answering this newbies questions!.....Bill