I would like a 44-40, but.......

[Beagle333]

I want to learn to load and shoot the 44-40, just to have a new caliber to try out. The question though is..... should I get a new 1873 clone in that caliber, or would I be just as happy if I got a 44-40 cylinder from Borchardt Rifle Corp and put it in my 44 special Blackhawk?
The price difference makes it a definitely interesting prospect, being around $450 for a dedicated gun, or $175 for the conversion cylinder. The question is, would I be getting the full 44-40 experience from a Blackhawk?
Thanks. Chuck.

[Kosh75287]

I'm thinking the projectiles intended for .44-40 might be just enough smaller (0.427", I think?) than the .44 Special's bore (0.429", I assume) to give so-so accuracy, so you might want to discuss that with Borchardt before getting another cylinder. I keep reading reading that the case mouth on .44-40 cases are fragile, so proceed with caution when resizing them.

[earlmck]

Does anybody still make 44/40's with a .427 bore? I have two and they are both .429. I'd opt for the replacement cylinder.

Near as I can tell a modern 44/40 is a 44 mag with a thinner case and lower SAAMI pressure regime.

[rintinglen]

My S&W 544 has a .4275+ bore. But the issue is what they put in the ammo, at least if you are shooting factory. If the bullets are undersized for your barrel, you'll get poor accuracy and likely leading as well.
I have found no joy in loading the 44-40. Lubing cases and then having to clean them is too much work for a fun shooter, at least for me. I had a 44 Special cylinder fitted to my revolver and haven't shot a 44-40 in years

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Are you planning on just shooting smokeless or just shooting BP or both ? This will make a difference.
Shooting just 3F (Goex) or whatever BP you choose in a revolver makes the barrel / cylinder variances commonly found a much easier issue to live with. But if the barrel is .431 and the throats are .427 do not expect fine accuracy. In 1870 - 1900 long range accuracy was why rifles were carried for those 30 yard and farther targets. Revolvers were viewed as handy close in tools.

Shooting smokeless near demands throat / barrel variances to be correct or close in diameters for fine accuracy.
Shooting both the powders then I would set the barrel / throat for smokeless as the BP in itself with soft cast is very adaptable.

We have a 1903 made 44WCF Colt New Service down here. Barrel groove diameter is .430. Throats were .427. Smokeless accuracy was awful even with 40-1 Cast. But loaded with 3F (Elephant) 3 inch rocks at 25 -30 yards were not hard to hit. But with the throats reamed to .430 smokeless loads of 7 grains Unique are accurate out to 75 yards with a Saeco 443 (220 FNBP). The 3F loads are also accurate out to 75 yards. And the "clean up" is no issue. It all comes with the "experience" of real life.
Mike in Peru
Mike in Peru

[Beagle333]

I would think that a cylinder made specially to fit in a .44 special BH would have a .429 throat, since Borchardt knows what gun it will be installed in, but I could be wrong. I'll surely ask that though and probably wouldn't buy it if it were just a .427 throat.:???:
I don't know about other makes, but the Cimarron 1873 in 44-40 that I looked at has a .429 throat according to them.
But for the sake of the thread, let's assume everything is a .429 and if so, would you convert a BH or would you rather have a dedicated 1873 in that caliber.
I think I would probably be shooting smokeless most of the time, but might use BP in it occasionally, depending on the mood of the day and the other guns I would be shooting that day.:Fire:

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Questions like yours are always hard to answer, because in the end you will (and should) do what you think best. I like your idea of utilizing your existing revolver for a different cartridge. I didn't get into .44-40s until about 10 years ago, and it was partially because it was a nostalgic cartridge of the Old West, and partially because I had read for years about it being a reloading challenge. The necks are thin and easily crushed when loading, but you'll rapidly improve your technique, and after smashing 5 or 6 I've rarely damaged another. If the bore on your present revolver is .429 and the new cylinder is .429, that's cool. If the bore is .429 and the cylinder is for .427 you can get it reamed. If the bore is .427 and the cylinder .429, loading .427 boolits might still be fine. I have 3 .44-40s, all originating with Uberti and sold under their own and other names, all are .429 and shoot very well. I have a Ruger Vaquero (original model) that has a .429 barrel and .427 cylinder throats and shoots poorly.

[bob208]

I size my .44-40 bullets to .429. use them in a Dakota saa , uberti 66 Winchester and in a real 92 and 73 Winchester.

[dverna]

My S&W 544 has a .4275+ bore. But the issue is what they put in the ammo, at least if you are shooting factory. If the bullets are undersized for your barrel, you'll get poor accuracy and likely leading as well.
I have found no joy in loading the 44-40. Lubing cases and then having to clean them is too much work for a fun shooter, at least for me. I had a 44 Special cylinder fitted to my revolver and haven't shot a 44-40 in years

Basically my thoughts as well. Seems like a waste of money to get into a cartridge that is more difficult to reload and offers no upside to your .44 Spl. If I had both cylinders, I would never reload for the .44/40. But it is your money.

BTW, I have wasted money on guns that I thought I wanted but then regretted acquiring. I am a lot more critical of my "needs" now. Also, I am a lazy person, and do not reload for fun; so any pistol cartridge must be reloaded in a progressive with carbide dies. So do not take my comments harshly. Just be honest with yourself and if you want it...go for it. There is the "cool" factor and only you know what that is worth to you.

[dmize]

I have 3 44 Mags,2 44 Specials and a 44-40 Vaquero and a 1894 Ltd. that I bought just because I thought it was cool.
I don't have a problem loading the 44-40 or the 38-40 or 32-20 for that matter. You just cant fly thru them like a straight wall.
Its kinda like asking a person why they have a 44 Special if they already have a 44 Mag.
My Vaquero is .430 but a friend has a Yellow Boy and it like my 1894 is .429

[country gent]

I to have been toying with the idea of a 44-40 for a few years. I'm eyeing the Henry made Original Henry as the platform. I'm planning on mounting a MVA Malcomb scope on it also. Iyts all in what you want to do and how. The black Hawk and cylinder should wring out most of what the 44-40 is able to do. Especially with a 7 1/2" barrel. WHat would be interesting is a complete build on a Black Hawk into a buntline. 44-40 caliber and 12"-14" barrel maybe even fit a shoulder stock to it for those times when that little extra is wanted.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Borchardt Company ought to be able to chamber a .44-40 cylinder to match your Blackhawk bore dimensions. If you want to explore the nuances of the new caliber, that would likely be the less expensive way to go. On the other hand, an excuse for buying a new firearm is a valuable commodity in its own right, and those Uberti SAA clones are pretty nice.

It just sort of hinges on what you want. You will likely find yourself clinging to the one cylinder and neglecting the other. You will almost certainly have to change your sight settings when you switch cylinders, which negates a lot of the pop-in-and-out convenience that such a conversion otherwise suggests.

I have a Target Model Uberti SAA that was originally a .44-40. I bought a .44 Special cylinder from VTI and fitted it to the gun, figuring I would switch back and forth. But the bare, practical fact of the matter is that, with smokeless loadings, the .44 Special will do anything the .44-40 will do, with a lot less effort in reloading, so the .44-40 cylinder spends its time in its little cloth bag, unused, and the sight remains adjusted for the .44 Special.

The .44-40 is a cool cartridge, and I have a Low Wall and a Remington 1890 clone so chambered. But it's only real advantages are nostalgia, black powder loading, and having a rifle in the same caliber.

[Outpost75]

I had John Taylor rechamber my .44-40 Vaquero cylinder so that its chamber neck and throat dimensions are now compatible with its .429" groove diameter barrel. Chamber necks are .447 and cylinder throats .4305" and I shoot .430 bullets. Revolver shoots like a rifle.

My S&W Model 544 also has .447 chamber necks and .4285 throats with .429 barrel and shoots well with the same loads I use in the Vaquero. Matt's Bullets .430" 215 grain FN work great if you don't cast your own.

My Marlin 1894S and Rossi Puma both have .448 chamber necks and .430 groove diameter. I run my loads a bit warmer than most people, because I own only strong, modern guns in .44-40, so I use 7.2 grains of Bullseye with .430 bullets across the board, which works for me.


For Colts and clones you need to cut that load one full grain and run 6.0-6.2 grains of Bullseye with 215 FN!

[Beagle333]

Thanks for all of the comments, guys. It does seem like a very good question why one would want to go from 44 special to a harder-to-load 44-40, just for the nostalgia of it. It is beginning to make much more sense to stick with the 44 special and keep my shooting simpler. I only have to load for 44 special and 45 colt and it would probably only serve to make my life more complicated if I wanted to add the 44-40 in there.

[historicfirearms]

Nothing wrong with nostalgia for a reason to load a cartridge. If you want one, get it.

[Beagle333]

I haven't completely tossed the idea out, but I am going to mull it over for a bit. And perhaps do some more reading on it.

[9.3X62AL]

My two arms in 44/40 WCF are 1) Winchester '73 carbine--throat a fat .429" and grooves right at .429". 2) Uberti Cattleman x 4-3/4", made 2012, throats all a few tenths over .429", grooves a few tenths under .429".

SAECO #446 in 92/6/2 sizes @ .4294" +/- .0002". These shoot with reasonable accuracy in both arms given the limits of their OEM sighting gear and abilities of the owner. All chambers accept W-W, R-P, and Starline brass as loaded without modifications to brass or chambers, and release bullets with appropriate expansion as best I can tell from before/after measurements. Given the headaches other folks have experienced with their 44/40 arms, I regard this outcome as VERY fortuitous. ETA--The shoulder placements of RCBS sizing die--chamber of rifle--and chambers of revolver--are all different. The rifle chamber upon firing blows the shoulder forward quite a bit--the revolver chambers not quite so much, but still a visible amount.

Now the "why" part. The refills of 44/40 WCF came rather late in my reloading career (c. 1995) after receipt of the Win '73 upon the passing of my Dad. It was my Great-Grandfather's ranch rifle, and it shows evidence of considerable past usage and had a few broken parts. I replaced these parts with as-close-to-OEM components as possible in order to get the beast into good mechanical shape. The bore and chamber needed DEEP cleaning, but once that was done the bore showed casual but good condition.

I invested in 50 W-W factory loads to try out the carbine for its first firing in almost 65 years. This got done in the desert using a played-out tire to hold the carbine and a 50-foot length of clothesline cording to pull the trigger. It fired, and nothing flew off/blew out/blew up. 4 more "fixture firings" were similarly unremarkable. Awright.

Next test drive occurred at the range, at 25 yards. Grouping was better than given by #00 buckshot from a 12 bore at same distance, but in a close Area Code--about 4"-5" at 25 yards. Nothing tumbled and no oblong hits on paper, though. Not an auspicious start.

Cast bullets that fit the barrel do far better. It can manage 1.5" to 1.75" 5-shot groups at 50 yards, and seldom exceed 4" at 100 yards. A few groups hover just over 3". Not earth-shattering-good, but for its designed purpose it is adequate. My Win 92 Miroku repro in 44 Magnum can stay well inside 3" at 100 yards with very similar sighting gear, FWIW.

Bottom lines--I hunt the rifle in the mountains my ancestors lived in and hunted, and will spend this deer season and 2018 using cast bullets in this carbine to do so while it remains legal in this outpost of North Korean consciousness raising known as Kalifornistan. Bruce B Soft Points/SAECO #446, 16.0 grains of IMR-4198, Starline cases (which are LIGHT-YEARS BETTER than the R-P or W-W hulls) and CCI 300 primers to make venison like Great Grandpa did. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

ETA--Had the inherited '73 Winchester not been a factor, I am uncertain whether I would have ventured into 44/40 WCF country. This is sort of a follow-on to my 32/20 reloading story, because at the time I received the '73 I also received a Colt Bisley x 4-3/4" in 32/20. Its history with me is similar, and with the 32/20 I had the advantage of Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" article on the subject (32/20 in Revolvers) from Handloader magazine. The 32/20 was a good "primer" for the 44/40 addition.

[kywoodwrkr]

Chuck,
PM inbound.
Thanks

[shooting on a shoestring]

My vote is for a new SAA clone.
It'll do two things for you. First you get to explore a new to you caliber. Second you get to explore the new gun.

I recently bought a Taylors Uberti Cattleman in .357 and at the time had 6 other, better, stronger 357s, one of which a stainless NMBH. The cost with tax was about 2 happy meals under 5 Benjamins.

It sure is pretty. I really enjoy the 4 clicks, and the load one skip one load four and close the door regimen. It's a purely fun gun. I had to open up the cylinder throats, fire lap some thread choke, order a new ejector rod spring after I shot too long without re-tightening the screws, locktite the new ejector rod housing screw, locktite the frame screws. Yep that list gave purpose to about five range visits. Now I have a SAA clone that shoots great, works well, stays put together and is a real hoot to shoot.

You could probably have a similar amount of fun and get to work a new caliber! Then you could have two good shooting guns to be proud of.

[smkummer]

Colt still uses a .427 bore for either its 44 special or 44-40 revolvers. My only 44-40 is an original Remington 1875 with original oversized throats that shoot unsized .431 bullets well. If it were myself, I wouldn't buy a 44-40 for the challenge of loading 44-40, especially if there is a 44 special option. But if an original SAA, 73 or 92 presented itself with too good of an offer, that would be a different story all together.

[Larry Gibson]

My 44-40 is an original Ruger Vaquero stainless. The throats pin gauge at .429 at the cylinder mouths and taper back to .4305 at the chamber mouth. The groove diameter is .429. I load with a Lee TL 430-240-SWC or the Lyman 429360 (245 gr SWC). I size them at .429 and lube with BAC. I load the Lee's over 6 gr 700x for 950 fps and the Lyman's over 8.5 gr Unique for 1060 fps (out of the 7 1/2" barrel). Both are very accurate and last time out I shot 100 rounds shreading 10 pop cans bouncing them from 15 yards all the way out to 70 - 90 yards with no leading.

I have taken the 44 magnum cylinder out of my 50th Anniversary FTBH and it drops right into the Vaquero. Fit and timing are perfect. The same Lee bullets loaded over 8.5 gr Unique hit to the same POA and are just as accurate.

205319

With the 44 magnum FTBH cylinder;

205322

[McLintock]

I had a set of 3 screw Ruger Blackhawk's that I'd had made into 44 Specials and then with Colt type backstraps for Cowboy Action Shooting. I then decided the black powder 44 Special load just wasn't enough, so had 44-40 cylinders made for them. I used original 357 cylinders rechambered with .429" throats and shot .430 bullets in them, pretty good magnum type load, made lots of smoke. You can find old or new model cylinders on Gunbroker, Ebay and other sites for $75-100 and rechambering will run $100 to $150, mine were $125 each.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/400098644.jpg
Also did it with a .44 Flattop I have but used a New Model 30 Carbine cylinder for that one.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/356603834.jpg
Space is tight in the 357 or 44 Special cylinders but the 44-40 will fit, I use Winchester brass, R-P often doesn't quite fit. Here's a few pics.
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812246.jpg
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1620/1303399/7384995/357812296.jpg
Do it, it's fun to work with.
McLintock

[Wayne Smith]

As long as Al knows it will go in a Ruger Blackhawk (.429 barrel) he will throat the cylinder for that. It's up to you to get/make ammo that fits. Don't worry about Al Story not knowing what he's doing!!

[9.3X62AL]

Larry--NICE dimensions on that Ruger 44/40.

The 44 caliber and 45 caliber revolvers tend to have some dimensional poetry to them. Once known, Folks Like Us can usually adjust things to make them produce decently. That I have two 44/40 arms--built 115 years apart--that can run well on the same ammo is very fortunate. Neither have any business competing at Camp Perry, but they will do to repel boarders or harvest our coyote-sized blacktails and muleys at modest ranges.

[Texas by God]

I like the cartridge. I had two problem child firearms so chambered. A .427/.430 Vaquero that shot horribly. I wish I still had it because NOW I know how to fix it. The other, a Rossi lever action had feeding problems that I finally fixed- it shot very well and i got two turkeys with it. A SASS shooter waved money at me till I let him take it. I would actually rechamber a .44 mag Handi Rifle to get another 44-40.Silly? Yeah, but I said I like the cartridge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[HABCAN]

No question......get a hand-fitted and properly-sized Pietta and don't look back.205389

[Outpost75]

I like the cartridge. I had two problem child firearms so chambered. A .427/.430 Vaquero that shot horribly. I wish I still had it because NOW I know how to fix it. The other, a Rossi lever action had feeding problems that I finally fixed- it shot very well and i got two turkeys with it. A SASS shooter waved money at me till I let him take it. I would actually rechamber a .44 mag Handi Rifle to get another 44-40.Silly? Yeah, but I said I like the cartridge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Rechambering a .44 Mag Handi-Rifle isn't going to make you happy because neck portion of the chamber is going to be WAAAY oversized for a .44-40, typical .44 Magnum chamber being .457 at the mouth, and .44-40 chamber .445-.447 if on the max. side of tolerance. A .44-40 with .447 chamber neck diameter provides adequate release clearance to load a .431" diameter bullet in Starline brass, or a .432" bullet in Winchester brass.

[Texas by God]

So you're saying a custom reamer would be needed? This would be a non factory ammo proposition. Or the neck on the 44-40 would split?

[Outpost75]

So you're saying a custom reamer would be needed? This would be a non factory ammo proposition. Or the neck on the 44-40 would split?

I am talking about chambering the rifle or revolver to the same dimensions used pre-SAAMI on original Winchester 1873s, Colt Lightnings and Single-actions, NOT the modern SAAMI chamber which is too tight for use with black powder or with bullets of diameter over .428". If you have a rifle or revolver with tight necked chamber, typical SAAMI being .443-.445", you cannot load a bullet large enough to fit a modern Marlin barrel with.430" groove diameter, UNLESS you use a heeled bullet such as Accurate 43-200QL, which was designed specifically to mitigate this condition without having to ream the chamber neck. The .448 stop ring on the bullet enables the bullets to be sized and lubricated in the conventional manner, and the nose flange will be cold-formed by the bullet sizer to make a front band which you size to fit the throats of your revolver or rifle. The reduced diameter driving bands on the heel are well lubricated, but not changed by a sizing die of larger diameter. The QL bullet has adequate lube capacity to prevent foul-out using SPG lube and Goex powder. This bullet is well proven in original rifles as well as modern ones, using both black powder and smokeless.

205429 205430

My modern Rossi and Marlin .44-40 rifles also have .447-.448 chamber necks and .430 groove diameter and I load .4305-.431 bullets in them, the same as I do for my S&W Model 544 and rechambered Ruger Vaqueros.

If you are shooting a modern rifle or revolver having .44 Magnum bore and groove dimensions, then you load a bullet which fits. The great majority of ORIGINAL .44-40s will shoot best with .430 bullets.

Factory ammo is loaded with bullets of .425-.427" diameter, but who can afford it at over $1 a shot?

Most original rifles I have cast run large, many larger than .430", that being more the rule than the exception.

But to answer your original question, yes, if you rechamber a .44 Magnum to .44-40 the neck diameter will be determined by its original .44 Magnum chamber, having a neck diameter of about .457", which is will be 0.010-0.012" oversized. While case necks might not split on the first firing, repeatedly reloading them by expanding the necks, firing them in a very large chamber, then resizing them down again for the thin case neck to hold the bullet will result in VERY POOR case life.

[Bigslug]

Thanks for all of the comments, guys. It does seem like a very good question why one would want to go from 44 special to a harder-to-load 44-40, just for the nostalgia of it. It is beginning to make much more sense to stick with the 44 special and keep my shooting simpler. I only have to load for 44 special and 45 colt and it would probably only serve to make my life more complicated if I wanted to add the 44-40 in there.

That's the conclusion I'd be coming to.

If you want the .44-40 experience for experience's sake, I think you'd be short-changing yourself to do it in anything other than Peacemakers, vintage Winchesters, or their clones. With a modern gun, a .44 Magnum can be watered down to functionally do anything the .44-40 or .44 Special can do with a lot less logistical and technical hassle - - which is why the older rounds really aren't around outside the circles of guys looking for that experience.

Don't get me wrong - I like a good bit of nostalgia as much as the next guy, but if the object is to simply thump stuff with a .43 caliber bullet at about a thousand feet per second, without going full retro in the process, there's simpler ways to do it.

[9.3X62AL]

That's the conclusion I'd be coming to.

If you want the .44-40 experience for experience's sake, I think you'd be short-changing yourself to do it in anything other than Peacemakers, vintage Winchesters, or their clones. With a modern gun, a .44 Magnum can be watered down to functionally do anything the .44-40 or .44 Special can do with a lot less logistical and technical hassle - - which is why the older rounds really aren't around outside the circles of guys looking for that experience.

Don't get me wrong - I like a good bit of nostalgia as much as the next guy, but if the object is to simply thump stuff with a .43 caliber bullet at about a thousand feet per second, without going full retro in the process, there's simpler ways to do it.

True that. Ya gotta enjoy the chase as much as the catch, for certain.

[Texas by God]

Thanks for the explanation. I understand now.
Best, Thomas.

[Beagle333]

Okay..... 'committed now. 'Got a 1873 in .44-40 sitting on layaway. :grin:

One of these days...............:Fire:

[zymguy]

i had a ton of fun shooting my dads 92with a marbles ang sight, so i vote for the 73

[9.3X62AL]

Okay..... 'committed now. 'Got a 1873 in .44-40 sitting on layaway. :grin:

One of these days...............:Fire:

Apart from its value as a family heirloom, I have gained high respect for the Winchester 1873 as a hunting and defensive rifle system. It was the "assault weapon" of it day. The rifle variants of these models held 15 cartridges, and that was unheard-of firepower just a decade after the Civil War. None of the '73's chamberings were uber-powerful, but a 115/180/200 grain bullet at 1300 FPS in a recipient's software wouldn't do its mainframe any favors. In days prior to antibiotics, ANY significant wounding was potentially fatal, and the lingering agony of septic mortality was no small matter.

[Ickisrulz]

I took it that Beagle333 put an 1873 revolver on layaway. Uberti?

[Beagle333]

Pietta...... a Cimarron Frontier.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah ha.......1873 REVOLVER.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

https://youtu.be/h5CeNw4vREI

I love the 44-40. Best advice I can give on loading is to use a 44sp/mag plug in your expander die.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171011/f5ef7e61e1ab52423da103d754c80530.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

Ah ha.......1873 REVOLVER.

Actually the Colt Single Action Revolver began production in 1871. It was in 1873 the military placed it's 1st order for 8,000 revolvers.....hence the M1873 designation.

[Beagle333]

It's this one.....
https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/products/revolvers/single-actions/frontier-sa/sa-frontier-pw-1/sa-frontier-pre-war-44-wcf-5-1-2-in.html
but I didn't get it directly from Cimarron. I don't think they do layaway.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Good for you.
Fun times ahead.

[HABCAN]

A great companion would be Elmer Keith's "Sixguns"...............you will never regret your purchase.

[Beagle333]

I did buy that book. It's on my "must read soon" list.

[dverna]

Good luck with your new gun Beagle. Not sure how the new reproudctions are, but a decent CAS gunsmith can slick them up so they are sweet if they are a bit rough out of the box.

I had my Colts and Great Western II's done and it makes a significant difference. If you are handy, you can likely do it yourself.

Nothing more fun than shooting a SAA.

[Beagle333]

My El Patron Competition models are smooth as can be, right out of the box. My Runnin' Iron needs a little lovin', but I didn't pay for the deluxe version of that one. I think I can do it. But I know a couple of CAS smiths if it becomes frustrating for me. I'm hoping the Frontier is already in pretty good shape. Cimarron supposedly picks the better ones.

[Hans Gruber]

Sure.
Slug the barrel to see if it will be accurate with .430 lead slugs.

The .44-40 uses .427" slugs.

This is a good time to consider getting into swaging your own....