Is H110 a Viable Propellant in Small Cartridges?

[Chev. William]

The Loads Contained Herein are NOT TESTED! They are Calculated for DiSCUSSION purposes ONLY!

Using “QuickLOAD” software on the ,25ALS cartridge design (Ammoguide Cartridge file #958) and a Hornady #2510 Bullet in the calculations to develop a Charge Variables table.
Cartridge Data entered:
Bullet = .250” sized dia. 60 grain Hornady 2510 semi jacketed Soft Flat Point.
Cartridge = .25 Automatic Long Stevens of 1.125” case Length. H2O cap. = 12.11 est.
OAL = 1.395”; Bullet Length = 0.544”; Shank Seating Depth = 0.274”;
Barrel Groove diameter = 0.251”; Barrel length (breech face to muzzle) = 12”;
Bullet Travel = 11.149”.
Pmax (MAP) = 25000psi; Measure method =piezo CIP;
Cross Sectional Bore Area = .048267 Sq. In.; Volume Occupied by Seated Bullet = 3.439 grains H2O; Usable case Capacity 8.667 Grains; weighting Factor = 0.75.

Propellant data Entered (other than supplied by QuickLOAD file)
Hodgdon H110 Propellant; Shot start Pressure = 2900psi; Charge weight = 8.0 grains; 93.2 % fill.

Step% Fill% Charge(grains) Vel(fps) Energy (ft.lbs) Pmax(psi) Pmaz(psi)
-10 84 7.20 1425 270 16132 2703
-08 86 7.36 1459 284 17083 2805
-06 88 7.52 1494 297 18091 2707
-04 90 7.68 1530 312 19170 3010
-02 91 7.84 1565 326 20325 3114
Nom. 93 8.00 1601 342 21562 3217
+02 95 8.16 1638 357 22888 3320
+04 97 8.32 1675 374 24312 3423
+06 99 8.48 1712 390 25831 3526

The Calculated steps below -10% and above +06% are deleted from consideration.

Questions for consideration:
1. Is this Propellant within its SAFE working area in this application?
2. Would the low end Weight be a SAFE Starting Charge for this Propellant?
3. Is this Bullet Heavy enough for caliber to ‘work’ with this propellant successfully?

From past testing, I have found that the Revolver that I use performs about 2.1 percent BELOW Specified Muzzle Velocity when measured about 5 yards from the muzzle, using CIP Standard Controlled commercial Ammo as a reference Cartridge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dragon813gt]

I'm assuming the cartridge is straight walled like the 25 ACP. Quickload gives erratic predictions w/ straight wall cases. I do not play w/ H110 loads. There are less erratic, and that's an understatement, powders available.

[DougGuy]

Why would you choose such a slow burning powder for a 60gr boolit?

[Chev. William]

Why would you choose such a slow burning powder for a 60gr boolit?

DougGuy,

Potential case Fill of the cartridge Volume is one reason for considering this Propellant.

Another is also thinking of this cartridge in a Rifle with a 22" to 24", or even 26" barrel.

The Revolver with a 12" Breech Face to Muzzle Distance is a Compromise that is also an easy one to Try IF, and only IF, it seems This propellant has possibilities. It only takes a reamer and a replacement cylinder to change cartridge Length in this particular custom built revolver, up to a maximum cartridge length of 1.400" inches.

THEORETICALLY, a Rifle, such as a turn bolt, or even a Rolling Block Single Shot, would allow longer Cartridge lengths and Bullet weights such as a 120 grain spitzer point, still with around only one bore diameter, or slightly less, of seated bullet in the case.

There is also the Crimp used on the cartridge to increase Starting pressure, which has not been included yet in the questions or Conditions under considerations. the postulated 60 grain bullet DOES have a cannelure/crimp groove in its design, and the jacket would be better retained than a typical Lead Cast Bullet.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[DougGuy]

I noticed the % of fill as being correct for H110, I just question how much of it can be burned before the boolit leaves the muzzle. A boolit that light would seem as if it would move too fast for much of the powder to burn.

I use a modded collet crimp on my straight walled cases that increases time before boolit pulls crimp which cuts down on SD quite a bit.

[flint45]

It works well in .22 hornet with 45 grain bullets.

[earlmck]

H110 is my powder of choice for my hornet and k-hornet with similar case capacities and even lower sectional-density bullets. I'd think it would be a natural in your proposed application, though I have no direct experience.

[Kosh75287]

I have an aversion to H110 for anything except .30 Carbine, so I want my inherent bias to be clear from the outset. I'D be inclined to try a work-up with Alliant 2400. It's faster burning, which may help with the 60 gr. projectiles, and you can reduce the "maximum" load by more than 3%, without inviting erratic ignition, a la H110.

[Chev. William]

I have an aversion to H110 for anything except .30 Carbine, so I want my inherent bias to be clear from the outset. I'D be inclined to try a work-up with Alliant 2400. It's faster burning, which may help with the 60 gr. projectiles, and you can reduce the "maximum" load by more than 3%, without inviting erratic ignition, a la H110.

That "3%" limit seems to be 'Breached' by some published .30 carbine loads which recommend STARTING charges about 80% of the Maximum charge stated.

Something is not being stated somewhere. Perhaps Ambient temperature have some effect on H110's "Temperament"?

Chev. William

[lar45]

If it's going to be around 25k psi, then H110 may not be the best option as it burns best at higher pressures and 100% load density.
If you want that burn rate, then maybe look at 4227. It has about the same burn rate, is a little more bulky and can operate at lower pressures. 2400 is another powder that can operate at lower pressures and doesn't need to be at high load densities.

[lotech]

Using an appropriate powder for the cartridge is always best. QuickLoad may provide guidance, but traditional and proven load development still works very well.

[Leadmelter]

H110/WW296 must be loaded to a min 90% density with a magnum primer for success.
Leadmelter

[Chev. William]

H110/WW296 must be loaded to a min 90% density with a magnum primer for success.
Leadmelter

It seems several Published .30 Carbine load recipes for H110 may have different views and they indicated they were Chronographed Recipes to boot, Curious and Strange.

Chev. William

[DougGuy]

Most sources I have read over the years say it does not like less than about 78% density, some even say 75% but I have never read where 90% minimum is recommended and I been reloading a good long time now.

The last few years I have been wanting to step back away from the 30kpsi power band and heavy boolits, and I got away from H110 simply because a few loads went slightly below recommended starting weights. I looked to 2400 and LilGun for these loads in the 75% - 90% power band for the Ruger Only 45 Colt in a full size Vaquero. I had very good luck with both these powders in this slightly reduced application.

I guess H110 would work, it just doesn't hit home as the ideal choice in the application OP is using it for or wanting to use it for. I don't have QL loaded on this machine or I could go looking myself since this is a HYPOTHETICAL load and being worked up in QL. I would be looking at the % of powder burned, I think it may be pretty low, but I could be wrong..

[P Flados]

I use a lot of 296/H110.

I have used it for both typical uses and a few examples that most would consider off the wall stuff. I have experienced the erratic performance that comes with inadequate load densities. Unless you have lots of "excess" strength in your gun, you really really really do not want to think about taking chances with low load density stuff.

Having said the above, now for the other side of the coin.

I would expect it to produce near maximum achievable velocities for medium to heavy boolits in any straight wall case with at least the length to diameter ratio of 357 magnum as long as your gun can tolerate 35,000 - 50,000 psi. I fired off a bunch of 100 gr boolits over 13.2 grs of H110 in my 327 today and am confident that I got about the best velocity I could get. And by the way, it was also produced the biggest flash/bang of anything resembling a cary gun load fired at the range while I was there.

I have found it to be most reliable with a high (but not 100%) load density. A 1/16" gap between base of boolit and powder seems to work real good.

With a gun that could handle a 357 mag, reducing the diameter to 25 cal would give you a gun able to handle pressures higher than the cases can take (this is a comfortable situation).

With a gun that started out as a 32, a 22 mag or something similar, I am not sure it would be a good idea to play with a powder that prefers greater than 30,000 psi, and can get "erratic" as you reduce charges.

[Chev. William]

P Flados,
Re: your Comment: "With a gun that started out as a 32, a 22 mag or something similar, I am not sure it would be a good idea to play with a powder that prefers greater than 30,000 psi, and can get "erratic" as you reduce charges."

The Ruger revolver I am using in my Experiments as a Test Gun started out its life as a "Convertible Single Six, New Model, in .22CAL". I bought it Used from the Gun shop that then did the conversion from RF to CF, from 6-shot to 8-shot, and made and fitted the 10-5/8" long, one turn in 9.8 inch twist Barrel for it from a Lothar Walther .25 Auto/ 6,35 Browning Cr-Mo Alloy steel Barrel Blank.
The Ruger Single Six new Model has been marketed by Ruger in calibers up to .327 Federal Magnum as far as I know in the blued frame type similar to mine.

I have NOT YET fired it with ANY H110 load but Have fired it with 3.0 grains of BE-86 Powder in a .25ACP case behind a 63 grain Lead bullet several times. As "QuickLOAD does NOT include BE-86 in its libraries of propellants, I have no idea what pressures are being developed by this load; although my Primers showed no excess pressure signs (both the primer edge and firing pin indent edges were still rounded, not flattened nor blown to sharp corners). The cases expanded the Same as Standard Factory loads fired in the same chambers and cylinder, which was made with a Standard SAAMI .25ACP Tapered Chamber Finish reamer.

My gun shop is now in the Process of working up a new Replacement 8-shot cylinder that will have straight parallel walled Cylindrical Chambers of .2795" nominal diameter. I am thinking the new Cylinder will better support the Cases and reduce the case expansion I have seen to date in all my fired .25ACP cases.

Also currently I have on Order from JGS Precision, another similar Diameters reamer for a longer "Mildcat" .25 Auto. Long Rifle cartridge of .960" Case length.

After that one is finished and received, I plan to order one made for a ".25 Magnum Auto. "Mildcat of 1.055" case Length.

Longer term plans are also in place for new cylindrical chamber reamers for case lengths of 1.125" and 1.250" for my other published "Mildcats" of the same diameters.

Best Regards,
Chev. Wiliam

[jonp]

Tried it along with Blue Dot in a 38sp. Both were very dirty and I saw no point to it.

[P Flados]

Chev,

I found SAMMI numbers for chamber bore of 0.2828" for the 25 ACP and 0.3412" for the 327. SAMMI max pressure for the 22 mag is 24,000 psi and for the 327 it is 45,000 psi.

Lets "do the math" on comparing 25 acp allowed pressure to a 327 based on maximum expected breech forces. For the 327, the pressure times area = 45000 psi x 0.0914 in^2 = 4114 lbs. To generate this much breech pressure, the 25 ACP pressure would need to be 4114 lbs / 0.0628 in^2 = 65,500 psi. This should provide you with ample confidence for basic frame stresses at expected pressures.

Next is a discussion of cylinder strength. Softer steels can have a yield strength as low as 36 ksi. What I call strong steel will have a yield over 100 ksi. When I look at my SP-101 327 revolver, I see chamber walls that look like they would deserve a very strong steel. Very strong cylinders cost a lot more to make. In 22 LR/magnum, your gun had thicker cylinder walls than the same gun in 327 Fed and a much lower working pressure. Also, with the smaller chamber the same internal pressure gives a lower primary stress in the cylinder (called hoop stress). Therefore, there is every reason for Ruger to use a steel that is much less strong in their 22s than for their 327s. There is also the location of the notches. The Single seven has them located where they do not reduce wall thickness at the high stress region. A Single Six has the notches such that material is removed at the location of maximum stress.

With any load above normal 25 ACP pressure, you will using be some of the legendary Ruger "built tough" margin. However, the challenge is that you do not know how big the margins are.

I seem to recall that you have a defective cylinder that will fit your gun. If you were to have one of the good chambers reamed for 25, you could use the cylinder for proof testing under controlled conditions (most notably, no body parts anywhere near the gun).

[Chev. William]

P Flados,
According to the Distributor of my 'replacement' aftermarket Cylinders, they are made from 1144 Alloy Steel; which I understand from Materials Dealers is a Carpenter Steel called, by them, "Stressproof" with a design Strength of about 100,000 psi yield as manufactured.

If a Post Machining Heat treatment was used, I have no Information on that.

My Gunsmith has commented that he uses a Lot of Lubrication and Very slow cutting for reaming my cylinder as they Are Harder than the normal Run of Materials he is used to.

The cylinders are first bored And reamed to a good .2510" diameter finish; THEN rough chamber reamed followed by Finish Chamber reamer.

My current choice of Parent Brass is 5.7x28mm, I believe, is Specified for 50,000psi MAP equivalent in the European Regulatory environment. I would gather that that pressure limit is not reduced by my Swaging DOWN the case body diameter, as I have found the Wall thickness to Increase on my sectioned cases.

Would you agree with my estimates?

Yes, I posed the Questions for a MAP of 25,000psi so i could stay within the Known area UNTIL I can Prove to myself that a higher MAP may be safe.

My personal limits on my Other Test Actions are Lower; as to date I limit them to about 1124fps muzzle velocity out of difference to their age and designs.

I hope sometime in the future to afford the buildup of a Rifle that is capable of testing loads to the 40,000psi or 50,000psi MAP range. But that is not now.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: My longest chambered ".25 Mildcat" using a new Lyman Dial caliper measures .285" at the rear of chamber; .100" wall from chamber to outside cylinder diameter; .075" chamber to chamber wall thickness; 1.405" chamber length from rear face of Cylinder to front face of Cylinder. the rims sit in a rebate so The rear cylinder face is roughly the base datum. The Ratchet extends about .084" behind the rear face and the overall length of the cylinder, at center line, is about 1.623". Chev. William

[P Flados]

I found the following:

1144 also sometimes referred to as Stressproof ®, is a carbon-manganese grade which is severely cold worked to produce high tensile properties. The bars are specially treated to relieve the stresses set up by the cold drawing, thus minimizing the tendency to warp after machining which is common in ordinary steels. 1144 cold roll bars have high strength hardness, without the need of heat treatment.

This material get its strength from cold working. As such, it would probably get softer with any attempt at heat treating.

I pulled up an online tool to run the numbers:

https://www.engineersedge.com/calculators/hoop-stress.htm

Assuming a thin wall cylinder with a 0.075" wall thickness (the limiting number from the info you gave) and a mean diameter of 0.285 + 0.075 = 0.36", I get 98,400 psi of stress at 41,000 psi chamber pressure. This does not include any strength reduction due to material removal at the notches. It would be a challenge to figure the numbers if the notches reduce wall thickness to below 0.075". SAAMI gives a 140% multiplier for proof loads. This leaves you with a working pressure of 29,290 psi.

Using hoop stress for strength is probably conservative. The actual strength at the thinnest location is probably re-enforced some by the adjacent thicker material. However, the "extra" is probably not that much.

Neglecting the brass is also conservative. The brass adds strength and it reduces the effective mean diameter. Lets run the numbers on just the diameter part. The effective OD will be the chamber ID plus 2 x wall or 0.435. Lets call the new ID as 0.257. That drops the mean diameter to 0.346". This increases chamber pressure at yield to 43,300 psi. Working pressure goes up to 30,900 psi. I may be playing a little fast & loose by reducing mean diameter the way I did, but I am pretty sure this pushes your working pressure to over 30,000.

If you had gone with less chambers in your cylinder, you may have been able to increase the min wall to 0.10". Using this value would push the chamber pressure at yield to 53,900 psi for a working pressure of 38,500 psi.

Note that choice of steel and heat treat really does matter. I have dealt with staineless (17-4 ph) valve shafts that ran 125,000 psi for yield. I am sure that my Ruger SP 101 cylinder has a yield well above the 100,000 psi of your aftermarket cylinder.

[Chev. William]

As I understand your discussion, this 8-shot replacement cylinder of 1144 Alloy steel seems reasonably safe at 25,000psi MAP and possibly as high as 29,290psi MAP negating any 'improvement' due to the Brass cartridge case dimensions.

Is my understanding correct?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[P Flados]

I would call it "Ruger tough" for ammo you think is at 25,000 psi, and pushing to 30,000 would be OK for occasional use.

The problem is you have limited info on what your ammo actually runs and I would not want to treat it like a gun that is strong enough to use flattened primers as sign of excess pressure.

Your BE-86 is real close to the old standby, Unique. It is typically loaded with very slightly heavier charge and has a pretty close to optimum burn rate. Unique was listed in a 1996 manual as giving 14800 psi in a 25ACP with 1.7 gr under a 50 gr bullet. Your previously discussed load of 3.0 gr of BE-86 under a 63 gr boolit could very well be just over 30000 psi (the heavier boolit pushes pressure up, but the bigger case pushes pressure down - hard to tell if these balance), but has been proven to be OK. I would probably not go any further.

If you want a little more velocity, something like HS6 should give you an extra 50 fps safely. If you want something slow enough to be safe without load data, you could probably go to 100% load density with 4227. With your cylinder limitations I would not mess with anyting ever reported to be "touchy" like H110 or Blue Dot.

[Chev. William]

That is Reasonable and I agree with your thinking. My Ruger Single Eight is and was the Most Gun I could afford to use in my "Mildcat" experiments to date.

Sadly, this year my Budget is under strain from Lack of "Work Calls" coming from my Union dispatcher plus the Annual California Property Tax 2% increase that the Legislators are Really Upset is the Limit they can impose so far. Of course, "Cost of Living" used by the Federal Government has not been that high for Several years and my Social Security Retirement has not gone up even that much.

Perhaps some other experimenter will undertake the building of a STRONG Rifle Action to develop higher pressure range loadings in these small capacity cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[P Flados]

I am hoping to get a mini lathe for Christmas. It is not certain as my wife responded in a very negative fashion when she heard me & my son (a recent college grad with an engineering degree) talking about it. I need to catch her in a good mood and convince her that I need to get it before I retire.

I have a dead 10" octagon 22 hornet barrel (messed up chamber) for my TC. If I get the lathe, I am thinking about trying to work up "stub tube" system intended for easy swapping of the actual barrel.

I also have a Stevens 12 gauge single shot gun that I considered making inserts for. Actually, just about any 12 or 20 gauge break open shotgun made from a decent grade of steel would be a great minimum cost super safe test platform with an insert for anything with a chamber diameter less than 0.4" or so.

I have been keeping my eye out for very low cost used/surplus barrels that could be used just for experimenting. Numrich has a bundle of 5 misc rifle barrels that is tempting at $26.95.

A 25 cal sounds fun, but more cost/work as I have no dies, molds, shell holders, etc.

A 30 Badger or similar for the TC sounds more likely. Other than the barrel, I have or could probably make everything else I really need. A 6" to 8" 32 special or 32 H&R is probably more practical for actual loading and shooting, but the 30 badger has an advantage when it comes to brass. I could track my inventory of 38 special brass in gallons. With a reasonable twist, I could probably make any barrel from 0.308 to 8 mm work for a Badger type project.

[Chev. William]

When you say "mini Lathe" it would help if you better defined your hopes.
My brother has several EMCO Unimat 3" "Mini Lathes" with Accessories he is using to develop a book on them. They are 'Table Top' portable size. complete with the carrying cases.

I hope you Do Get your Desires this Christmas.

As to the .25ACP: Consider that a Set of Lee Dies, including a Carbide ring sizing die, is still inexpensive tooling if you already have a reloading press and accessories. The Three Die 'Carbide' set for .25ACP is listed at MSRP $42.98 on the Lee Precision web site.
I have been using Lee dies in my Experiments due to the Relative Low cost and for their willingness to 'Modify" them for my better use Reasonably.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[P Flados]

A 7" x 12" seems to be big enough with price point and weight being in reason. A 7" x 14" is also a possibility.

I took metal shop in high school and then I got a part time machinist job for a small company while I was in college. Most of my time was spent running a 13" lathe.

[Chev. William]

Ahhh, that is a good explanation. Sounds like a typical 'English Hobbyist' Size that the English Model makers used To build their 5" gauge Live steam locomotives with. Some really Wonderful Precision Work And Operating Models have been made on that size Lathe, along with some truly impressive custom tooling for use with/on them.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: I remembered the most prevalent Name of the English Model Engineering lathes I read About in published articles: "Myford".
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

As an Exercise, and to verify My memory, I ran a QuickLOAD calculation for a .25ACP with H110 and a .553" long 67 grain lead WC-HP reversible bullet loaded in HP out to a Overall cartridge length of .905".

A propellant charge of 1.64Gr fills to 100.4% and yields Estimated 6145psi Pmax from a Starting Pressure of 2176psi and burned 19.23% to get 433fps.

This Definitely is NOT a Viable Recipe in this (.25ACP) cartridge.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: Another Exercise With comparison Theory; H110 16 grains in a .410 Shot shell behind 1/2 oz shot load.
1lb = 7000 grains, 7000/32 = 218.75 grains for projectile.
218.75/16 = 13.67+ grains of projectile per grain of H110 propellant.
50/13.67+ = about 3.66 grains of H110 for a 50 grain projectile to get the same Ratio of propellant to Projectile. Since 3.66 is MUCH greater than 1.64 Grains of the above QL result, this is further Indication that H110 is NOT VIABLE in the .25ACP size Case (.612" Case Length).
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

For Consideration: The same .25ALS mild cat with 60 Grain Hornady #2510 bullet sized .250" at 1.395 Cartridge Over All Length but using 2400 propellant.
QuickLOAD Charge table (from a PDF file Print).
Diff.(%) Charge Weight (Gramm-Grain) Muzzle Vel. (m/s-fps) Muzzle Energy (Joule-ft.lbs) Max. Pressure (bar-psi) Muzzle Pressure (bar-psi) Prop.Burnt (%) B_Time (ms) L.R./Filling (%)
-10.0 0.39-5.9 461-1512 413-304 1317-19106 193-2797 76.2 1.027 78
-8.0 0.39 6.1 471 1544 431 318 1390 20160 199 2887 77.3 1.004 80
-6.0 0.40 6.2 481 1577 449 331 1466 21269 205 2977 78.5 0.981 82
-4.0 0.41 6.3 491 1610 468 345 1547 22435 211 3067 79.6 0.959 84
-2.0 0.42 6.5 501 1643 488 360 1631 23662 218 3156 80.7 0.935 85
Nominal 0.43-6.6 511-1676 507-374 1720-24953 224-3245 81.7 0.913 87
+2.0 0.44 6.7 521 1709 527 389 1814 26310 230 3332 82.7 0.891 89
+4.0 0.45 6.9 531 1742 548 404 1912 27738 236 3419 83.8 0.870 91
+6.0 0.45 7.0 541 1775 569 420 2016 29241 242 3504 84.7 0.850 92
+8.0 0.46 7.1 551 1808 590 435 2125 30822 247 3588 85.7 0.830 94
+10.0 0.47 7.3 561 1841 612 451 2240 32485 253 3671 86.6 0.812 96
in the body of the set up for the run, charge weight was 6.61 Grains; the .pdf file truncates the grains numbers to two digits.

Again the Same parameters and data layout but for 4227 propellant:
-10.0 0.43 6.7 400 1312 311 229 1053 15270 144 2083 54.6 1.135 91
-8.0 0.44 6.8 409 1341 325 240 1114 16152 149 2166 55.7 1.109 93
-6.0 0.45 7.0 418 1371 339 250 1178 17085 155 2249 56.9 1.084 95
-4.0 0.46 7.1 427 1401 355 262 1247 18082 161 2334 58.0 1.059 97
-2.0 0.47 7.3 436 1432 370 273 1320 19140 167 2419 59.1 1.034 99
Nominal 0.48-7.4 446-1463 387-285 1397-20264 173-2505 60.2 1.010 101
+2.0 0.49 7.5 455 1494 403 297 1480 21458 179 2592 61.4 0.987 103
+4.0 0.50 7.7 465 1526 421 310 1568 22739 185 2680 62.5 0.964 105
+6.0 0.51 7.8 475 1559 439 324 1662 24102 191 2767 63.6 0.940 107
+8.0 0.52 8.0 485 1591 457 337 1762 25556 197 2856 64.8 0.916 109
+10.0 0.53 8.1 495 1625 477 352 1869 27113 203 2944 65.9 0.893 111

Note that 4227 would need between 107% and 109% fill to yield about 25,000psi Pmax MAP by these Calculations.

For Comparison convenience the Same table info for H110 is below:
-10.0 0.50 7.7 461 1512 413 305 1235 17917 206 2983 67.6 1.042 90
-8.0 0.51 7.8 473 1551 434 320 1319 19125 213 3095 69.0 1.013 92
-6.0 0.52 8.0 485 1590 457 337 1408 20427 221 3207 70.4 0.984 94
-4.0 0.53 8.2 497 1629 480 354 1505 21830 229 3319 71.8 0.956 95
-2.0 0.54 8.4 509 1669 503 371 1610 23344 237 3431 73.2 0.928 97
Nominal 0.55-8.5 521-1710 528-389 1722-24981 244-3542 74.6 0.900 99
+2.0 0.56 8.7 533 1750 553 408 1845 26754 252 3652 75.9 0.874 101
+4.0 0.57 8.9 546 1791 580 428 1977 28676 259 3761 77.3 0.848 103
+6.0 0.59 9.0 559 1833 607 448 2121 30763 267 3868 78.6 0.823 105
+8.0 0.60 9.2 571 1875 635 468 2278 33033 274 3974 79.9 0.798 107
+10.0 0.61 9.4 584 1917 664 490 2448 35508 281 4078 81.1 0.775 109

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[P Flados]

Lots of book loads have 4227 with max loads as compressed loads. However, I just never like compressing powders.

I tried a bunch of 4227 loads a while back bit found it to shoot great when things were optimum, but it had a down side. I found it to be temperature sensitive (Ok loads when cool would show pressures sign on a hot day).

I also prefer smooth metering powders. I have been thinking about getting a ball powder somewhere between HS6 and H110. I have my eye on Longshot. It is just a tad faster than 2400 and 2400 is just a tad faster than H110. It also gets near H110 velocities with 50% less powder than either H110 or 2400.

[Chev. William]

Tuesday after thanksgiving weekend and I am frustrated by Circumstances.

1. I do not have enough never fired .612" long .25ACP cases to run valid tests to compare to previous testing; which was done with never fired factory .25ACP cases of .612" length.

2. Currently available factory New .25ACP empty cases seem to be .603"-604" typical length.
(USA Manufacture, the .612" ones were European manufacture).

3. Night before Thanksgiving I was bitten by some Insect, and the bite has both swollen and become infected, so I am on Antibiotic med and have a large dressing on my hand, so NO playing in the reloading area for the moment.

4. My Newer truck went in for Covered (insured) accident repairs Monday.

5. My Older (work) truck developed a problem (Check EGR Warning light) and is now in for diagnosis and "lube and oil/filter change" periodic maintenance.

6. This leaves me with no personal vehicle available so am currently 'House Bound'. So I am 'stuck with Cable television and computer' to keep me busy until one of my trucks is returned ready for use.

As I opened, it is a Frustrating Time for me.

Sadly,
Chev. William

[Handloader109]

While not a straight wall cartridge, my 22tcm uses a 37 to 45 gr bullet, and a load of 10 to 11gr of H110 and I've used small rifle and pistol primers with zero difference. About 1800 to 1900fps out of my full size 1911

[EDG]

The typical steel used for centerfire rifle actions and barrels is 4140. It is used in the heat treated to about 42 Rockwell for receivers. It is a common steel and is much stronger than 1144. I would not use 1144 or the smith that recommended it.

[Chev. William]

I would call it "Ruger tough" for ammo you think is at 25,000 psi, and pushing to 30,000 would be OK for occasional use.

The problem is you have limited info on what your ammo actually runs and I would not want to treat it like a gun that is strong enough to use flattened primers as sign of excess pressure.

Your BE-86 is real close to the old standby, Unique. It is typically loaded with very slightly heavier charge and has a pretty close to optimum burn rate. Unique was listed in a 1996 manual as giving 14800 psi in a 25ACP with 1.7 gr under a 50 gr bullet. Your previously discussed load of 3.0 gr of BE-86 under a 63 gr boolit could very well be just over 30000 psi (the heavier boolit pushes pressure up, but the bigger case pushes pressure down - hard to tell if these balance), but has been proven to be OK. I would probably not go any further.

If you want a little more velocity, something like HS6 should give you an extra 50 fps safely. If you want something slow enough to be safe without load data, you could probably go to 100% load density with 4227. With your cylinder limitations I would not mess with anyt(h)ing ever reported to be "touchy" like H110 or Blue Dot.

P Flados,
Rereading your post again and I caught a possible misconception in your discussion (I highlighted it in The quote above). The 3.0 grains of BE-86 behind a 63 grain Lead bullet was loaded in a G.F.L. made .25ACP case of .612" length and loaded to an Overall length of .905"; not the longer cases I started this thread with. This, and another load consisting of 3.1 grains of BE-86 behind a 50 grain FMJ also loaded into G.F.L. Case have been fired out of my Customized Ruger Single Eight revolver using the 1144 alloy Story aftermarket Cylinder reamed to .25ACP chamber and throat dimensions using a typical Tapered Chamber shape (SAAMI recommended dimensions)of a semi-Auto pistol barrel.

This results in All my fired .25ACP cases exhibiting a measurable circumferential bulge just ahead of the Web. I hope to solve this bulge with a new Story aftermarket cylinder reamed with a new JGS Precision Custom .25ACP reamer that has a cylinder, parallel wall, chamber design of .2795" diameter Mouth to Base (NO Taper). I believe this will also slightly increase both the chamber to chamber web thickness and the chamber to outside wall thickness.

Does this change your thoughts on my revolver cylinder strengths?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

The typical steel used for centerfire rifle actions and barrels is 4140. It is used in the heat treated to about 42 Rockwell for receivers. It is a common steel and is much stronger than 1144. I would not use 1144 or the smith that recommended it.

EDG,
These Aftermarket 8-Shot .22 Magnum Cylinders are sold for the Ruger Convertible Single Six and as such do work. My Experiments with reaming them to .25ACP and longer Mildcat Cartridges of similar diameters are done for economic reasons as I cannot presently afford the charges for custom machined from Scratch Cylinders in heat treated 4140 or even heat treated 41V50 which would be the "preferred Alloys" for the maximum Durability, Toughness, and Strength in this application.

The Last quote I received was $65 an Hour for MACHINE time on NC automated equipment AFTER a Hefty Programming/Engineering/Set up charge.

The 1144 aftermarket cylinders have cost me between $100 and $160 each to purchase, depending upon when and where Purchased.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A little Update on the discussions herein:

H110/W296/WC296 Propellant 'Problem characteristics' seem to be Related to its being deliberately Slowed down with various inhibiting chemicals so it will give good performance in its designed environment (supposedly the .30 Carbine cartridge).
This means The propellant is difficult to both Ignite and To Keep Burning if pressures are not maintained due to cartridge characteristics.

It seems that cartridges which ar enot suitable by design quickly allow pressure of combustion to be reduced by expansion and this 'cools' the Remaining propellant below the point where it can sustain combustion, resulting in, typically, a Bullet stuck in the bore and a mass of melted but unburned Propellant left in the case or Bore.
If the shooter does NOT notice this, and fires another cartridge in such a blocked bore, disaster May result.
This Seems to be a problem with Revolvers due to their 'venting' at the cylinder to forcing cone gap. other types of action seem to be less prone to the Problem but are still cartridge design sensitive.

The above is what I 'took away' from a much longer and more detailed explanation/discussion on another forum.

Also, it seems the problem is possibly present with any Slow Burning Propellant if Conditions are just "Wrong". Initial Ignition but incomplete combustion, ending with a mass of unburned propellant fused Together and stuck in the Bore can result in a "Blocked Bore" Mishap with possible dire results. Slow propellants employed in 'lite' recoil loads with lite bullets for youth training perhaps?

At least I can use my H110 and W296 Propellant stock in .30 carbine cartridge reloading.

I am Still awaiting mu gunsmith getting my .25 Cal Single Eight aftermarket cylinders reamed with the new .2795" diameter Parallel wall Reamers.
He has bee out of the Shop lately working on a Location Movie Production.

Another firearm acquisition occurred in July August 2018, a Ruger Standard Auto MKII pistol, which I an contemplating converting to Center Fire if i can find 'reasonable ' process costs for the work involved.

This one has a short tapered Barrel and Volquartsen target grip molding installed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[psweigle]

All i can say is wow! You are into the .251 bullet. Im really pulling for this to work. I love my little 25 auto and am totally into what you are doing with it and why. Thanks for all your hard work. I will continue to follow this .

[Jedman]

I don't believe it has to be loaded to a " higher pressure " to burn efficient as I used it for 410 skeet loads for many years. The load was 14.0 grs of H 110 in a Win. AA case with a WAA410 wad and 1/2 oz of no. 9 shot for approx. 1200 fps @ approx 11000 psi.
It was clean burning and always went bang with no bloopers or weak sounding reports, I shot at least 10 pounds of it over the years.

Jedman

[Texas by God]

I've used it in .30 carbine, .300 Blackout, .357and .41 magnums and it's twin W296 and haven't used a magnum primer yet. I love it.

[Chev. William]

I don't believe it has to be loaded to a " higher pressure " to burn efficient as I used it for 410 skeet loads for many years. The load was 14.0 grs of H 110 in a Win. AA case with a WAA410 wad and 1/2 oz of no. 9 shot for approx. 1200 fps @ approx 11000 psi.
It was clean burning and always went bang with no bloopers or weak sounding reports, I shot at least 10 pounds of it over the years.

Jedman

1/2 oz Shot equals 200 grain Projectile.
14.0 Grains of H110 is ablut in the middle of Charge recommendations for .30 Carbine with a 110 grain Projectile.
The .30 Carbine has a MAP Pmax of 40,000psi according to SAAMI recommendations.
And Yes, I know H110 is recommended for use in 410 shot shells, just a Quirk of the Propellant it seems.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I've used it in .30 carbine, .300 Blackout, .357and .41 magnums and it's twin W296 and haven't used a magnum primer yet. I love it.

I also use H110/W296 in .30 Carbine reloading along with 2400 which has been Hard to find in my area.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

All i can say is wow! You are into the .251 bullet. Im really pulling for this to work. I love my little 25 auto and am totally into what you are doing with it and why. Thanks for all your hard work. I will continue to follow this .

The .25ACP has been almost ignored as a potential RIFLE cartridge by its CIP and SAAMI Testing Specifications which state that ammunition should be tested in a 6 inch long barrel for pressure testing. This is compared to the .22 Long rifle Cartridge which the same people use a 24 inch barrel for pressure testing.

Historically, the .251" bullet was used Very effectively in the .25 Stevens Rimfire for both Target shooting and "Pot meat" hunting, loadings with Black Powder yielding around 1000-1100fps out of 22-24" barrels.
Sadly, later Smokeless loads were only made to about 960fps so they Lost effectiveness for Target and Hunting in the change.

The Stevens cartridge used a 67 grain lead bullet, inside lubed, and about 10-11 grains of Black powder.

Now NOE Molds has a 'Cherry' Al can use to cut molds for both a 65 grain bullet and a50 grain bullet that will dorp at about .255" diameter and Size after tumble lubing nicely to .251".

Hunter Supply also has a Mold, currently not in their bullet Production, that casts a 63 grain bullet. I pleaded with them formy Last batch of 63 grain bullets and they found an employee who hand cast my order with their mold, for a premium fee.
They currently produce 48 grain bullets tha tare suitable.

Lee did make a Run of Ranch Dog's Design TL256-50-RF, which was designed to fit the 'oversize' bore/groove of his Taurus .25ACP pistol and dropped at about .256"-.257" diameter. I am sure Lee still has their 'Cherry' but would require a "Group Buy" to run it.

The Lyman 260420 mold is listed as a 65 grain bullet but seems to drop at about 72-74 grains nowadays. it does Size down to .251" diameter if lubed before sizing.

Some Jacketed bullets are, or were, mad that size to .251" diameter including Hornady #2510 JSFP 60 grain one. the Jacket stops short of the nose leaving a lead flat point exposed. This bullet was originally made for the .25-20SS cartridge.

Personally, I believe a 6 inch barreled Semi-auto pistol would yield Much Better performance than the Typical 2"-3" barrels usually found. Factory Loaded .25ACP seems to gain velocity up to about a 16" -17" long barrel, so a 'carbine' would get about 1000fps which is close to the original .25 Stevens RF performance.

I have a Relined 1890 Octagon barrel, that was shortened to 20 inches sometime in its past, that I plan to assemble into a .25ACP rifle eventually. It has a 1:14 twist TJ liner installed by John Taylor of Pullaup, WA.

My plan is to chamber it with a straight, parallel wall, .2795" diameter Finish reamer by JGS Precision to give a "Match Grade" fit.

Just waiting on my gunsmith to finish my several other Projects in his hands first.
A .45 Win.Mag. on a .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands now for about 3 years.
A .30 Sheilin 'Match Grade' 1 turn in 10" barrel to fit to a New Manufacture Fulton Armory .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands about 2 years.
A Stevens 'Model 44' CF conversion has been in work by him about 2 years now.

Chev. William

[psweigle]

The .25ACP has been almost ignored as a potential RIFLE cartridge by its CIP and SAAMI Testing Specifications which state that ammunition should be tested in a 6 inch long barrel for pressure testing. This is compared to the .22 Long rifle Cartridge which the same people use a 24 inch barrel for pressure testing.

Historically, the .251" bullet was used Very effectively in the .25 Stevens Rimfire for both Target shooting and "Pot meat" hunting, loadings with Black Powder yielding around 1000-1100fps out of 22-24" barrels.
Sadly, later Smokeless loads were only made to about 960fps so they Lost effectiveness for Target and Hunting in the change.

The Stevens cartridge used a 67 grain lead bullet, inside lubed, and about 10-11 grains of Black powder.

Now NOE Molds has a 'Cherry' Al can use to cut molds for both a 65 grain bullet and a50 grain bullet that will dorp at about .255" diameter and Size after tumble lubing nicely to .251".

Hunter Supply also has a Mold, currently not in their bullet Production, that casts a 63 grain bullet. I pleaded with them formy Last batch of 63 grain bullets and they found an employee who hand cast my order with their mold, for a premium fee.
They currently produce 48 grain bullets tha tare suitable.

Lee did make a Run of Ranch Dog's Design TL256-50-RF, which was designed to fit the 'oversize' bore/groove of his Taurus .25ACP pistol and dropped at about .256"-.257" diameter. I am sure Lee still has their 'Cherry' but would require a "Group Buy" to run it.

The Lyman 260420 mold is listed as a 65 grain bullet but seems to drop at about 72-74 grains nowadays. it does Size down to .251" diameter if lubed before sizing.

Some Jacketed bullets are, or were, mad that size to .251" diameter including Hornady #2510 JSFP 60 grain one. the Jacket stops short of the nose leaving a lead flat point exposed. This bullet was originally made for the .25-20SS cartridge.

Personally, I believe a 6 inch barreled Semi-auto pistol would yield Much Better performance than the Typical 2"-3" barrels usually found. Factory Loaded .25ACP seems to gain velocity up to about a 16" -17" long barrel, so a 'carbine' would get about 1000fps which is close to the original .25 Stevens RF performance.

I have a Relined 1890 Octagon barrel, that was shortened to 20 inches sometime in its past, that I plan to assemble into a .25ACP rifle eventually. It has a 1:14 twist TJ liner installed by John Taylor of Coos Bay.

My plan is to chamber it with a straight, parallel wall, .2795" diameter Finish reamer by JGS Precision to give a "Match Grade" fit.

Just waiting on my gunsmith to finish my several other Projects in his hands first.
A .45 Win.Mag. on a .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands now for about 3 years.
A .30 Sheilin 'Match Grade' 1 turn in 10" barrel to fit to a New Manufacture Fulton Armory .30 M1 Carbine Receiver has been in his hands about 2 years.
A Stevens 'Model 44' CF conversion has been in work by him about 2 years now.

Chev. William

You,sir, are the MAN! Keep up the good work. I always thought a .25 auto rifle would be a very accurate light handy knock around the woods gun. Prove me right!

[Texas by God]

Chev.William- please don't convert your M1 carbine to .45 WinMag. A company called LeMag tried that in the 1980s with dangerous results. Sorry for the thread drift.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Chev. William]

Chev.William- please don't convert your M1 carbine to .45 WinMag. A company called LeMag tried that in the 1980s with dangerous results. Sorry for the thread drift.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I know of the LeMag problems.
I had planned mine as a NONE Gas Operated "Straight Pull" action for Bench shooting.
Much less chance of out of battery discharge when it is not an auto loader.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

You,sir, are the MAN! Keep up the good work. I always thought a .25 auto rifle would be a very accurate light handy knock around the woods gun. Prove me right!

Psweigle,
Joshua Stevens already showed that in the 1890's with his .25 Stevens RF cartridge and his company rifles chambered for it.
I am merely attempting to make a more modern CF version and a more modern Rifle to use it.
"Ballistics by the Inch" website documents their testing of SAAMI Factory ammunition in Various length Barrels.
Their Posted data seem to indicate Factory ammunition seems to increase in Muzzle velocity As Barrel length increases to about 16 to 17 inches then begins to decrease again. I am guessing the SAAMI type factory loading are 'optimized' by Lawyer Guidance to be Safe in the Weakest and most Abused Firearms ever Existing. I also believe European factories, under CIP Legal Requirements, produce ammunition closer to the Power originally planned into it. CIP Legally Requires Every firearm offered for sale, new or Used, in Europe to be proof tested, inspected and Approved for the sale. Weaker or abused firearms fail this testing.
Chev. William

[psweigle]

Psweigle,
Joshua Stevens already showed that in the 1890's with his .25 Stevens RF cartridge and his company rifles chambered for it.
I am merely attempting to make a more modern CF version and a more modern Rifle to use it.
"Ballistics by the Inch" website documents their testing of SAAMI Factory ammunition in Various length Barrels.
Their Posted data seem to indicate Factory ammunition seems to increase in Muzzle velocity As Barrel length increases to about 16 to 17 inches then begins to decrease again. I am guessing the SAAMI type factory loading are 'optimized' by Lawyer Guidance to be Safe in the Weakest and most Abused Firearms ever Existing. I also believe European factories, under CIP Legal Requirements, produce ammunition closer to the Power originally planned into it. CIP Legally Requires Every firearm offered for sale, new or Used, in Europe to be proof tested, inspected and Approved for the sale. Weaker or abused firearms fail this testing.
Chev. William

My plan had been to use a single shot shotgun, and have it lined with a 16" liner. I would simply have to jave an extractor, ejector, whichever, made. Plenty of meat there to hold up to a hotrodded 25 acp.

[Chev. William]

My plan had been to use a single shot shotgun, and have it lined with a 16" liner. I would simply have to jave an extractor, ejector, whichever, made. Plenty of meat there to hold up to a hotrodded 25 acp.

If you base your rifle on a Shotgun, then make the Barrel insert at least 18 inches long to avoid ANY legal problems down the road.
May I suggest you use a Lothar Walther Barrel Blank (.25ACP/6,35 Browning) in either Cr-Mo Alloy Steel or Stainless Steel with a roughly 9.8 inch to the turn rifling?
Their Barrel blanks are roughly 23.8" long and About 1.1 inch in diameter so there is plenty of 'Meat' to fit to even a 12 gauge shotgun action as an Insert barrel with enough at the Muzzle end to take a retaining/tension nut.

Chev. william

[psweigle]

Yes sir, that was exactly the plan. And the barrel INSIDE the shotgun can be any length, so long as the shotgun barrel itself is at least 18 inches, if i am to understand it correctly.
But of course, this isnt a "need it now" project. I was hoping to see your results before i sunk a couple hundred into a "why did you do that?!?!" gun.Thanks.

[Chev. William]

OK.
Now we Both Need To be Patient waiting for my Gunsmith to get my Projects done in his good time.
He does work well and is often out of the Shop on Movie Projects (much more remunerative of his time; so good for his finances).

Chev. William

[GONRA]

Minilathe Guys - GONRA sez - be sure to purchase one that hasa LEADSCREW, change gears / gearbox for TREADING, etc.
There all sorts of "hobby lathes" marketed for metal verkn' that do NOT have LEADSCREWS!
Don't waste yer $$$$ ...

[Handloader109]

Just for note, I use 10-11 grains of H110/296 in my 22TCM. Bottlenecked .223 cut off. Works fine, LOUD out of the 1911/2011 with a big flash. Appears to be identical to the OEM powder.

[Chev. William]

Back to the original Question of the thread:
It appears the 'consensus' is H110/W296 is not suitable for .25ACP size case volume.

Now how slow a Propellant Is viable in said .25ACP case to get best velocity out
of a 8 inch Barrel?
Or a 10 inch Barrel?
Or a 23 inch Barrel?

Bullseye, BE-86, and Unique are Pistol burn rate propellants that seem to work in short barrels well; but loose something in long barrels.

Would 2400 be better suited for longer barrels with the .25ACP?

Are there other Propellants that might be more suitable in long barrels with the .25ACP?

Chev. William

[Dieselhorses]

Maybe this was mentioned already but velocity may be inhibited in colder temperatures with H110 (below freezing)- Just what I heard.

[Chev. William]

Maybe this was mentioned already but velocity may be inhibited in colder temperatures with H110 (below freezing)- Just what I heard.

As I have no way of testing for that possibility in my local (Southern California) area, I will leave that problem, and its converse (performance at Elevated Temperatures), to others for evaluation.
Chev. William

[am44mag]

I've used H110 for 7.62x25 Tokarev with a 90gr bullet. Works well, and the fireball is impressive. It nearly fills the case. So much so that I'm pretty sure it's a compressed load.

[Chev. William]

I've used H110 for 7.62x25 Tokarev with a 90gr bullet. Works well, and the fireball is impressive. It nearly fills the case. So much so that I'm pretty sure it's a compressed load.

Sounds like you are avoiding the Ignition Problems wiht your Case fill and perhaps a Crimp on the 90 grain Bullet, something like .410 Shot shell loads do.

Chev. William

[am44mag]

Sounds like you are avoiding the Ignition Problems wiht your Case fill and perhaps a Crimp on the 90 grain Bullet, something like .410 Shot shell loads do.

Chev. WilliamYep. My gun has a super tight chamber, so I have to crimp them pretty good. I'm also using magnum primers (mainly just to get rid of what I have since I don't use them for anything else).

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't used H-110/WW-296 for a long time. For my calibers & usages it has a very limited utility. I use Alliant 2400 in large quantities, though. Chev--in our area, check Phillips Wholesale, Inc. in Covina. Even during The Drought, the store's powder inventory was fairly stable. Pricing isn't bad, either. They maintain an online inventory of in-stock powders--Google it up and see what they have.

[farmbif]

I’ve always wanted a semi or lever action 22 hornet or 25-20
What your proposing beats both of them

[Chev. William]

Notes on my Projects:
- .25ACP Ruger Single Eight is back in my hands with three *-shot cylinders ready for Test firing; .25ALRM, .25ALS, and .25MACP all with parallel wall chambers of .2795" diameter.

- .25ACP Ruger Standard Auto Pistol with 8-1/8" barrel is working as a "Single Shot Auto Eject" until I can fabricate magazine(s) to feed it.

- .25ACP converted Stevens Favorite rifle is Still awaiting my gunsmith's ministrations.

- .25ACP conversion of a n 1890 Winchester is waiting for my gunsmith to permit me to submit it for final fitting of parts.

- .25ACP conversion of a Stevens 44 action; most parts gathered, including a barrel blank, to be machined and assembled.

-25ACP conversion of a Marlin 'Levermatic'; waiting fo rmy gunsmith to give me permission to submit the donor gun and parts for the Conversion.

Current winter Weather is wet, cold, and Breezy precluding any activity in my outdoor reloading shop.

I did get a "Range day" Thursday Feb. 14th afternoon to shoot my .25ACP converted Ruger Standard auto MKII pistol at my local outdoor commercial range. fired about 150 rounds in single shot mode.

Chev. William

[ahall]

be careful with your assumptions - its rolled bar and typically the specks are from a tensile test specimen pulled in the axial direction. The ability to withstand hoop stresses can bu much lower, especially if the alloy has any free machining additives. The additives tend to form stringers as the bars are rolled. Its the stringers that cause a local weakness that breaks the chips and makes it free machining.

from the ASM International heat Treaters guide - 1144 - special-purpose grade. Very high sulfur content, equal to free machining 1213, High sulfur reduces transverse impact and ductility.

When I saw the 1144 it reminded me of an experience with 1187 gears. Our supplier switched from flame cut plates to round bar, and the teeth began coming off in service. Sulfur stringers at the root of a tooth are a great place to start a fatigue crack.

Second, the test bar is pulled at mid radius for the bar, prior to any pealing or other final finishing. Heat treating and cold working are not always effective at raising the tensile strength of the core of the bar.

I speak from experience in another industry and have sent a few truck loads of steel back to the supplier over these issues.
Reject a few loads and they get your stuff right, and push the junk on someone else (like the little guys).

"stress proof" and "fatigue proof" are just marketing terms applied to high strength alloys. No magic.

[Chev. William]

Thank you, more information is always welcome.

My Aftermarket 1144 alloy Cylinders have withstood "Proof" testing to date: I used 3.1 grains of BE-86 propellant behind a 50 grain FMJ projectile fired with WSP primers in all Eight chambers of my first converted, .22MAg to .25ACP, cylinder two full sequences with no indication of overstress in the cylinder.
My new Cylinders are cut with smaller diameter Chambers; .2795" diameter Parallel walls versus the older one of .280"-.283" diameter Tapered chambers.

Another person did some calculations and figured I was probably running about 30,000psi Pmax MAP with my load and also calculated a yield strength of the cylinder walls of about 47,000psi at the thinnest section.
Since Factory loads are rated at 25,000psi Pmax MAP or Less I believe I have a Safe revolver.
My Pistol has a Cr-Mo Alloy barrel with the cartridge body fully enclosed by Barrel metal and the rim surrounded by the Bolt, which is some hard Alloy steel. I do not believe I will have any failures in the pistol either.

Chev. William

[GONRA]

GONRA's usual half *** answer:
When WW / Olin sold 630P powder (relatively slow, "not-so-small HARD BALLS" - NOT "flattened ball powder")
their SUGGESTED LOAD (not some GONRA Crapola) as I loaded quantities:
50.2 gn. cast lead Ideal 252435 bullet, .252 inch diameter, 3.0 grains 630P Powder, CCI #500 Primers.

So - wots "so special". Seated bullet is PHYSICALLY supported on the HARD 630P Powder Balls...