Reloading the 38 S&W

[lathesmith]

Recently, I got a hankerin' to get out my S&W model 10 Victory revolver that is chambered for the 38 S&W, and wanted to see what it would take to reload this caliber properly. In the past I have use 38 Special bullets with moderate success, but this time I really want to do it right. So, first things first--get out the pin gauge set, and get accurate measurements of the chambers and chamber throats, with a comparison to a 1950's vintage S&W model 10 38 Special. I found the following:

38 S&W throats-- .363; chamber diameter-- .389
38 Special throats-- .358; chamber diameter-- .381

I also measured the barrel diameters; no, I didn't slug them, but my dial caliper indicated a relative difference of .004-.005 between the two. The 38 Special checked in at around .357 or so, and the 38 S&W checked in at around .361 or thereabouts.

It should be clear from these measurements, these two are NOT in the same league when it comes to reloading. Each requires its own components if optimal results are to be achieved. I may even have to make a custom sizing die; my Lee 380 Auto die that came as a sizer for 38 S&W will probably squeeze the brass down too much. Also, the expander plug only expands to around .356, 3/4 of its depth into the case. This just isn't nearly enough; I see that casting and sizing custom bullets at .363 would be a waste of effort if I try and stuff them into these undersized cases. They will simply be swaged down, and I'll be right back where I started.
I look forward to getting the GB 38/200 Webley mold for casting for this fine old revolver. At first, I thought that the specified diameter of .362 was a bit overkill, but after these measurements I see that I was in error. If anything, it may not be quite generous enough--a slug of at least .362 or .363 will be needed to make this gun shoot up to its potential. I was also surprised at the barrel diameter; I had always been led to believe that these Victory 38 S&W's were simply 38 Specials with a different cylinder. This is obviously wrong, these guns were clearly built for 38 S&W ammo from the start.

I'd be really interested in hearing from some of you other guys about this caliber. Are these barrel/chamber dimensions typical? How about some of you Webley guys? What does it take to make these revolvers shoot up to their potential? Seems like a lot of trouble, but to me that's half the fun!
lathesmith

[HeavyMetal]

I have a mild interest in reloading the 38 S&W. A few years back I inherited an extraordinary H&R top break that had been issued to a great Uncle as a guard duty weapon during the second WW. This piece isn't worth a bunch as it's an H&R but I have never seen a 38 S&W H&R with adjustable sights!

The gun is tight but I know that loads good in the Webley and Victory Models are to much for this old gun.

I will be watching this thread in the hopes some one posts loads I can use.

By the way what I do know about the Victory model is a bunch of them were imported after the war and then "re chambered" for 38 special. This was a bad idea because of the difference in case size at the base.

It's good you got one that hadn't been butchered by someone looking to make a buck!

[Pavogrande]

I have a 50's surplus 5" victory barrel (new, never installed)-- It slugs .357 - barrel is marked 38 S&W - I am inclined to think wartime production just used one bore size for both calibers. The victory was just the M&P in OD and plenty stong enough to eat a few oversize bullets -

[9.3X62AL]

Your measurements of chamber and throats are "spot-on" with those same dimensions in my S&W Lend-Lease Victory Model 5". It's grooves are .361", while the worn but serviceable bore in my Webley-Enfield shows a groove of .362". Lyman has a regular-production H&I sizer of .363".

The 9mm Makarov die set has been the saving grace for the 38 S&W. The Mak's tungsten carbide sizer die is perfect for sizing, and the Mak's expander spud works well with the .363" boolits too. I seat boolits in the 9mm Mak seater, then roll crimp in the 38 S&W Cowboy seater die. The 38 S&W seater won't accept boolits at .363" into its alignment sleeve, but the Mak seater die will take a .367" slug. The 38 Special/357 Magnum shell holder works fine. All tools mentioned are RCBS made.

[44man]

Sounds like a fun project! :Fire: Keep us posted.
I see only one problem if I was to try it myself. I can't feel those little things and would drop half on the floor! [smilie=w:

[9.3X62AL]

As loaded for the Webley-Enfield and Victory Model, the 175-200 grain bullets are significantly longer than the cases they are being seated into. A little different, that.

[lathesmith]

Al, thanks for contributing here, I was hoping you would. That is good info about the 9mm Mak; I had thought of that, and was wondering if it would be a good fit. Now I know! Looks like I probably need at least a Mak sizing die; I can probably make/modify the rest of my stuff to get exactly what I want. I remember a few years ago working with the 38 S&W, and my loaded rounds would fit some of my 38 Specials. No way should this be if they are loaded properly. I realize now that nearly all the stuff on the market made to reload 38 S&W is intended for those way undersized 38 Spec components. No more of that nonsense for me!
That's an interesting observation in post #6. I have read that the 200 grain service load was created to provide more "stopping power". These lend-lease revolvers have a fascinating history. I guess the Brits were going to try and fight the invading Nazis with these revolvers and such. Talk about last-ditch effort! You would definitely need all the "stopping power" you could get, ha! The thought of trying to halt the Nazi hoards with a revolver strikes me as ...well, desparate doesn't begin to start to describe it. A hopeless task, for sure.
Anyway, here I am, rambling again. Bill, my dad has a couple of those old top-breaks, and like you, I am a little afraid of them. I think you would be better off trying something much lighter. Maybe that Lyman mold that throws .366 slugs would be a start? Not exactly a traditional slug, but somewhere to start.
Pavo, I was also inclined to think that they just put an oversized cylinder in these guns without bothering to change the bore size, but this is obviously not the case. Maybe they knew which guns were headed overseas, and changed production specs accordingly? I have no idea, but speculation is fun.
44man, I have been reading your post about trying to squeeze oversize bullets into undersize cases, and I think that definitely applies here. Yea, these 38 S&W's are pipsqueaks, but they sure are fun anyway! I like the historical aspects as much as anything. This cartridge has been around since 1877, and what it lacks in ballistic appeal it makes up for with nostalgic appeal. I'm just an old softy, I guess....
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/3B773CE97D573A2/standard.jpg

............Some of the stuff I've shot out of my 2 Victories and Iver Johnson top break. Left to right: Lyman 200gr 358430/.360", Lyman 35863/.363", Lee GB 100gr/.359", Lee GB 146gr/.362", the Lee loaded, an old Colt Super Police. This is merely the S&W with a FN boolit, a 38 Special case for comparison.

http://www.fototime.com/F6696E3245BE49B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/86928C1813B4A70/standard.jpg

Some swaged up and hollow based 38's for use in the mighty 38 S&W. A cringing 38 WC about to be, ah .............. altered :-) From the Iver Johnson, which on all counts is an very handsomely machined and finished pistol, the 158gr Lyman 35863 over a 1.8gr charge of Red Dot absolutely screams out of the muzzle at a sizziling 480 fps :-) I think it might make 600 fps except for that .014" bbl/cyl gap!

The Lyman manual shows a 38 Special loading with the WC fully inside the case at an OAL of 1.15" I believe it is. You;ll need to check. You CAN seat the Lyman (NLA) 35863 WC into the 38 SW case to that OAL. I think one drive band is in the case? In any event, since the Victory model IS after all really a 38 Special (with alterations) you can use 38 Special loads IF you can match the OAL and case volumns.

http://www.fototime.com/86C54337F979FDD/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/9877DF39C588BA8/standard.jpg

The Iver Johnson, the armorers of America's bedrooms :-). As mentioned it is amazingly well machined, tight, and great fun to shoot. It's both SA and DA and has their hammer block safetly. If there is a convenient passing cloud to aim at you can toss a couple at the 200 meter gong. It DOES take a little bit to travel that far.

...............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

Yes, the 38 S&W isn't the most potent round available, that is for sure. I remember reading that Teddy Roosevelt was shot in the chest with one of these--and due to the less than fearful ballistics, he lived to tell about it. Those old top-breaks are notorious for a rather generous B/C gap, but they still seem to have a great nostalgia/fun factor.
Buckshot, that is also a good idea about taking some 38 Special slugs and making some "bump" dies and swaging them a bit larger. I guess a guy could even make a hollow point design with this, as long as he is using soft lead. Not that Hollow-pointing would be useful for this round, but just as a general idea I mean. So many projects, so little time...
lathesmith

[walnutred]

Wartime specs were not always that close. I have one US Victory that 3 cylinders with chamber 38 S&W. All will chamber 38 Special of course. Some old ammo catalogs listed 38 S&W as being a practice round for 38 Special. The 38 S&W used to be cheaper.

[yondering]

Hey, do any of you guys need some 38 S&W brass? I've been going through a few (actually 10) buckets of range brass, and have found a couple handfuls of 38 S&W brass so far. I was thinking of posting it in the S&S section once I get it all sorted out and counted, but this post made me think I should mention it here...
I'll still have to go through the rest of my range brass to figure out how much of this stuff I have.

[KCSO]

My old Ideal tool casts and sizes a 360 bullet for 38 S and W and that use to be the old standard. Now days 38 S and W will chamber in a 38 Special and the bullet is only 357 diameter. This makes for a leading load in the older guns.

[walnutred]

Hey, do any of you guys need some 38 S&W brass? I've been going through a few (actually 10) buckets of range brass, and have found a couple handfuls of 38 S&W brass so far. I was thinking of posting it in the S&S section once I get it all sorted out and counted, but this post made me think I should mention it here...
I'll still have to go through the rest of my range brass to figure out how much of this stuff I have.

I would be interested in 38 S&W brass.

[yondering]

I would be interested in 38 S&W brass.

Ok, lathesmith has first dibs, but I'll let you know. It will be a little while before I get it all sorted out anyway.

[silverbuzzard]

an old thread that needs updating
How bout paper patching a 38 wadcutter?

[9.3X62AL]

an old thread that needs updating
How bout paper patching a 38 wadcutter?

Not a thing I've tried. Not sure how well a PP'ed bullet would fare after transitioning from throat through the forcing cone and into the bore. I am BY NO MEANS an expert on paper-patching, and I would call my few flyers in that direction a little uneven.

[jimb16]

I've got an old IJ in .38 S&W. I recently took a spare .38 Special sizing die and opened it up a couple of thousandths to resize the S&W cases. I also have a 150 gr SWC mold that drops the bullets at .361. I figure that IF I PC them, they should be just right! Looking forward to trying it out with my own reloads. Accuracy isn't particularly good reloading with .38 Special dies. BTW, if anyone has some .38 S&W brass they'ld like to get rid of, I could use it....

[FergusonTO35]

I enjoy shooting .38 S&W level loads in my S&W 637 .38 Special. 3.1 grains Bullseye, Lyman 35891, and a Federal primer runs around 685 fps and is super accurate. According to several tests I have read, mild wadcutters actually penetrate quite well, oftwn more so than pricey JHP's.

[Thumbcocker]

Interesting old cartridge. IIRC Elmer liked it and even suggested keeping it around. He commented on it's accuracy.

[FergusonTO35]

It is unfortunate the .38 S&W never became a modern smokeless powder cartridge. The squat little case that can accept heavy boolits is ideal for snub nose revolvers. The .38 S&W could have become a respectable small revolver round instead of just an old timer on life support. I'll keep enjoying the aforementioned load in my 637 as sort of a tribute to it.

[9.3X62AL]

I have 4 revolvers on hand that chamber the 38 S&W. 1) Iver Johnson "Owl Head" top-break, 3" barrel. For a mid-quality arm, it is quite well-made. I shoot docile .375" roundballs run through a .363" H&I die--seated with a small bit of case mouth ahead of the ball radius--roll crimped--then a drop of LLA squeezed into that little "ditch". 2) Colt Police Positive x 4" (1920)--a little jewel. #358477 @ .359", 3.0 grains of Unique imparts 700-725 FPS. 3) and 4)--Webley-Enfield WWII top-break and S&W M&P x 5"--both get NEI #169A (202 grain RN) atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. The former load runs about 650-675 FPS in both guns, the latter Herco load gets 675-700 FPS. These 38/200 loads are on another level from what is seen in most 38 S&W shooting.

[Thin Man]

Lots of good comments here. May I add a few...

To resize your brass get a die set for 38 Super/38 ACP, it will give you correct dimension brass. Not a wasteful purchase if you have or want pistols in either of these calibers. Or, how about both???

For molds, watch the sales venues for an old Lyman tong tool in 38 S&W. These usually sell for much less than a GB or custom new mold. I have bought 3 of these and all of them give me different diameter and weight boolits usually in the 145 +/- weight. I suspect the undersize molds were intended to coordinate with the black powder fouling days, larger diameter when smokeless and cranky shooters demanded such. All of these are RN profile, nostalgia can be a good thing. Some molds are single lube groove, some two. Faster powders are your friend, light loads rule with older or loose or hinged frames.

Hope this helps.

Thin Man

[ddixie884]

Brass is available from Star-Line for $90.00 for 500 shipped. That ought to last a few years at .38S&W pressures.........

[Outpost75]

I use a Lee 9x18MAK die set with .38 Special shell holder to load for .38 S&W and .380 Rimmed Short and these work fine.

I load for a circa 1930 Colt Police Positive .38 Colt New Police and a Webley Mark IV.

Most accurate bullet for me has been Accurate 36-155D with 2.5 grains of Bullseye. Tom also cuts this profile in 178-grain and 193-grain weights for British revolvers zeroed for the heavier Mk1 or Mk2 service loads and has a heavier 201-grain ogival wadcutter too.

171726171727171728171729171730

Velocity Comparisons Webley & Scott .380 Mark IV vs. .38 Colt New Police Positive

Ammunition:____________________Webley Mark IV_____Colt Police Positive

Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load_______750 fps, 19 Sd_______794 fps, 14 Sd

Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye______640 fps, 8 Sd________691 fps, 11 Sd
“______“______“, 2.5 grs. Bullseye______705 fps, 19 Sd_______718 fps, 6 Sd
Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye______595 fps, 10 Sd_______601 fps, 18 Sd
Accurate 36-201D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye______601 fps, 12 Sd_______612 fps, 20 Sd
NOE 201-grain Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye_____609 fps, 12 Sd_______629, fps 15 Sd

171731171732

[Reverend Al]

I have an old Cramer 6 cavity mould for the .38 S&W (146 grain round nose plain base that casts at .360" in WW) and I use it with a very conservative 1.5 grains of Bullseye for my old top break revolvers. It's a very soft load that is easy on those old, weak actions ...

[Ole Joe Clarke]

Strange, I was digging in my "misc range" brass the other day and found a few .38 S&W (11 pcs) some .32 S&W (15 pcs) and 101 pcs of .32 S&W long hulls. I was thinking of putting them on the for sale site and see if there is any interest. Most of them are R-P.

Now, if I just had a pistol......

Have a blessed day,

Leon

[BrutalAB]

Zombie thread...

Gonna be loading 38 s&w soon for my brother.
Im expecting it to be very low volume. Reloading the same 50 pieces of brass over and over.
With powder coat i have plenty of moulds to make boolits over .360 so that is covered.
I gotta get dies though.

Is it still recomended to get 9mm mak or 38 super/acp dies instead of 38 s&w dies?
For what its worth, im going to be getting lee dies for this.

[Dan Cash]

an old thread that needs updating
How bout paper patching a 38 wadcutter?

Our forum friend from Switzerland was showing his 10mm something service revolver the other day with associated ammo. That stuff was paper patched so I suppose paper patching .357 to .363-.365 would work fine.

[Outpost75]

No need to patch .357 bullets. Most common .38 molds cast oversized anyway. Soft HBWC bullets slug-up well. Accurate also has a variety of molds optimized especially for the .38 S&W, .380 Rimmed, the Mk2, .380-200, etc.

For most common .38 S&W revolvers you want lead bullets .362-.363," but lead bullets in factory loads are actually .357-.358 of soft lead, which slug up nicely when loaded with fast-burning powders like Bullseye or TiteGroup.

[murf205]

I have an Accurate Molds 38 158 gr mold that drops at .360 and it made my little first model 33 shoot great. I powder coated it to .361 and caught a lot of flack for not making the loaded rounds look original but it shoots lights out with a .361 boolit.

[oscarflytyer]

glad this floated to the top. I having been hoping to find a nice old Colt or Smith in 38 S&W at a can't pass price. Passed on a few as not set up to load. Then a mold and dies came around and I snagged them. Bow just need to find the donor gun!

[Oyeboten]

I have 100 .38 S&W Cartridges loaded with 3 F 'Swiss' Black Powder, and their little Beeswax thin Wafer, pending my decision on which Boolits to use, and it got too cold here and has been cold here a while now, so I am waiting for a warmer day or two to cast up some more candidates.

I have three or four old IDEAL Molds for .360 Boolits and I have only cast some from one of them, for this Boolit, and I will load some up with this of course.

My other Molds cast a heavier semi-Wadcutter...and I can post some pictures once I have various examples Cast.

This is a fun one though, for Paper Target.

https://media.fotki.com/2v2HQLD5dx9J4Vm.jpg (https://private.fotki.com/PhilBphil/loading-and-whateve/img-3201.html)Hosted on Fotki (https://www.fotki.com)