Finally loading BP in 44/40. Still have a ways to go to having a good load though.

[Babbott213]

I ran 16 rounds of 44-40 BP loads through my 138 year old Winchester 1873 today. Been working on a bullet and load combo. Using Desperado 200gr. .430” RNFB backed up by GOEX FFFg BP at 2.2cc Lee Dipper for now. Next I’m going to buy myself the Lyman No.55 Classic BP Measure. At 40yds. they were all over the place. Up, Left and Right. Moved the sight up and down till I think I got it set ok for now, but I think a lot of my issue was fouling from the GOEX. After only 16 rounds, it was so bad, I thought I was going to break the string on my Bore Snake. I’m going to load up more in the next few weeks and try FFg and see how it does, and then I may move over to the Swiss BP as I hear it burns cleaner. But after I got my bore all cleaned back up nice and Purdy, I went ahead and removed my side plates and removed her guts and cleaned out 138 years worth of grime. I’ve only had her for about 10 months, and this is the first time I’ve took her down this far. I didn’t bother removing the stock or the leaver from the housing, but it was loose so I could clean around it Good. Used Acetone to cut the old crude and a stiff bristle brush and a soft brush. Oiled up all the parts good and put her back together. Next, I plan on removing the stock, lever, trigger and hammer and get into the nooks even better. Hopefully I can get her to hitting better as well. The reason for the .430” bullets is due to having an oversized bore of .433”, so by using the softer lead bullets and BP, I’m hoping to get a better deal into the groves than what I was getting with .428” bullets which you could hear the gasses leave the barrel before the bullet left. If anyone has any pointers, I’m willing to listen.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171002/05b9f47cd5a87a60c0ddbf09ce060151.png


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[Chill Wills]

I don't know if I have any answers but I do have a question or two.
Is the bullet something you cast from a "Desperado 200gr" mold or more likely a mail order bullet? If from the store, and they are meant for smokeless powder, the lube may be giving you fits. Also, they may be harder than you want and might not be bumping up to fill the larger .433 grove diameter that I assumed you measured.

Swiss maybe somewhat better powder, BUT, the GOEX with the right fitting bullet, alloy, and lube (and enough lube) should shoot a lot better than what you are seeing so far with this great old rifle. Assuming the barrel is up to it....
If you are not casting bullets, you may need to, just to have the right stuff.
Someone on here (maybe even me) could send you some bullets to try that might be a step in the right direction.

Good luck!

[Babbott213]

I don't know if I have any answers but I do have a question or two.
Is the bullet something you cast from a "Desperado 200gr" mold or more likely a mail order bullet? If from the store, and they are meant for smokeless powder, the lube may be giving you fits. Also, they may be harder than you want and might not be bumping up to fill the larger .433 grove diameter that I assumed you measured.

Swiss maybe somewhat better powder, BUT, the GOEX with the right fitting bullet, alloy, and lube (and enough lube) should shoot a lot better than what you are seeing so far with this great old rifle. Assuming the barrel is up to it....
If you are not casting bullets, you may need to, just to have the right stuff.
Someone on here (maybe even me) could send you some bullets to try that might be a step in the right direction.

Good luck!

No, the Desperado bullet is manufactured for BP loads and is manufactured close to the same specs as the lead bullets back in the day. They are softer in order to expand from the charge in order to get a tighter seal to the grooves of the barrel.

Casting my own one day is something I’m hoping to do one day though. But for now, I’m buying them.


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[Dan Cash]

From your description of the fouling, it sounds like Chill is right about lubricant failure although blowby will eliminate the lubricant in the groooves and cause some really hard fouling. Further, you can improve your fouling control by blow tubing periodically; at least each 5 shots if not each shot. A piece of 3/8 clear plastic tubing from the hardware store will do the job.

If available, try Old Eynsford powder as the fouling seems softer than that from Swiss but Goex will do everything you want.

Save your money on the $120.00 Lyman black powder measure. Get a standard #55 measure (about $45.00 used) and gently dump the charge from the measure to the case. The spendy unit will not improve anything for you.

[reloader4410]

A felt wad over your powder maybe one thing to look at, here is how I load, a soft bullet I cast from roofing sheet lead , lube is 50/50 bees wax & olive oil, 3f then a felt wad then bullet. At one time I had my revolvers getting stiff to turn the felt wad cured my problem. Also store bought bullets should be a little sticky. My guns rifle and revolver are a little wet at the end of the barrel a sure sign my lube is working. Hope this helps, & HAPPY TRAILS.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I doubt you will get 0.003 inches of bump. You can increase the diameter of the bullets you purchased by tapping the end with a hammer. This essentially "flattens" the bullet. Running them through a sizer would get them concentric, but finding one in .433 would require a custom one. Imperfect bullets of bore diameter will likely shoot better than perfect bullets that are undersize. You don't have much to lose.

Another thing to try is to load two card wads slightly larger than .433 between powder and bullet. This would help seal the gases to prevent blowing the lube off the bullet so quickly, and even in aid in any bump up. I use the cardboard backing from writing tablets. You can cut them with a sharpened fired cartridge case.

Another possibility is using a .410 shotcup with a bullet inside like a sabot. You will have to trim the petals to the end of the case, but than can be done after loading too. Check your bore after every shot if trying this until you are sure the combo works. You may need to drop back to the .427/.428 sized bullets.

[Don McDowell]

The fouling and inaccuracy most likely came from the .430 bullets in the .433 bore.
Probably best to get a cleaning rod out and go into that bore and do some lead mining. That small of bullet in that large of bore is liable to have left a mess, especially if that old rifle had any pitting in the bore, or what looks to be pitting that may actually be lead left from years ago.
What were those modified tc maxiball cowboy bullets lubed with? Might want to try some of the original style bullets from a Lyman or RCBS type mould.

[BeemerMark]

I use desperado bullets for smokeless but they are still on the hard side (BHN 10) for BP. You load seems on the light side also. With GOEX and a 200 gn bullet is should be around 39 gns of FFFg. I think the 2.2 cc dipper is only about 20 gns. I could be wrong.

[yeahbub]

It might be a good idea to find out what diameter pin gage will just pass in the neck of a fired case to see what diameter boolit will still chamber. Then a max allowable diameter will be known.

Another way to get a boolit large enough to seal the bore is to start with a dead soft .445-.450 round ball over a case full to the neck, a card wad and grease cookie as mentioned by Reloader4410. The ball is seated snugly enough to stay, but not enough to appreciably expand the case mouth (chambering issues). It will swage down easily enough when fired and have sufficient bearing surface for the rifling to spin it without stripping. I've done this with a Marlin .44 mag over 8gr of Trail Boss and accuracy was a ragged hole at 50 yards. They're too delicate for general use, but they'll eliminate the undersize boolit problem and tell you if the old gal wants to group.

Right offhand, I can't think of a cheap shortcut to a .434 or .435 diameter boolit. Most .44 molds cast smaller than that, so it'll have to be "bumped" or swaged, which means an investment. Maybe somebody out there has a handful of .43-something hollow-base boolits they're willing to send you?

[Buzzard II]

My .02 cents worth if you want to try. I used a 200 grain accurate bullet in a Uberti iron frame lever gun. No fore arm wood-yeah it gets hot. I think I used pure lead. Sized one thousand over bore ( I use a luber sizer to .429) and lubed with SPG. Starline brass full length sized, lube cleaned off and all work done in an old single stage press. I used 28 grains KIK 2F and 5cc of shotgun buffer. Any primer I had. I compressed the powder and buffer with the bullet. Good shooting!
Bob


PS- I shot N-SSA, the whole event without cleaning my gun using the KIK. No problems. I couldn't make one stage with Goex fouling the gun. KIK is a little hotter than Goex too! I also use an old Belding and Mull powder measure as it's real accurate and puts the Lyman 55 to shame. I also used a muzzle protector on my ram rod and a brass bristle and brass wire bore brush. Pro Shot I think from Midway USA. I used Ballistol to clean the gun-inside and out. I usually shoot on the bench about 1 1/2 inch group at 50 yards taking my time. N-SSA is standing and timed, so it opens a lot. Don't use gun oil in a black powder gun-ever. If your bore is .433, you might want to size to .434. Yeahbub has a great way to check the size of the bore. It worked for me too.

[Larry Gibson]

Babbot213

I did considerable testing of Desperado bullets with both smokeless, BP and BP substitute powders. They are excellent bullets and I highly recommend them. However, unless they changed the lube on them they will foul heavily with BP and some BP substitutes. The fouling will be hard just as you mention. It is the lube that causes the heavy fouling. When I cleaned off the lube they use (a sticky purplish blue soft lube) and relubed the bullets with SPG and my own BP lube (beeswax/olive oil) they did not foul. While the 44-40 I used, among other cartridges, was not an original Winchester (it was an Uberti) the .430 Desperado bullets I used performed very well......as well as my own cast 200 gr RFs.

[Buzzard II]

In an older gun (any gun really) you must slug the bore as they are usually on the small size.

[Walks]

Buying from a custom caster may solve your bullet dia. Problem. Montana bullets maybe able to help you. Or you can buy a custom mold from someone like N.O.E.
I have never met a Cowboy Action Shooter that shot BP, without either casting/loading their own. Or conning a close friend to do it for them. A REALLY CLOSE FRIEND. And a dedicated BLACK POWDER LUBE is an ABSOLUTE MUST. Swabbing the bore out every 8-10 shots is a must that I learned the first BLACK POWDER Match I shot.

[emmett22405]

Plus 1 on what LGibson says. My old Uberti Iron Frame Henry loves the Desperado .428 in both 200 grain and 240 with smokeless --a SAMMI safe load involves reloader 7 if you are interested pm me. For black powder and duplex loads the original lube has to go. I place the bullets in very hot warming water with a drop of liquid dish detergent and stir a bit, paper towel dry and relube with SPG. I find that with Swiss 2 or 3f or Olde Eynesford (same granulations) about 34(200) and 30(240) respectively grains compressed (duplex on pm) they shoot one ragged smear on a 200 yd gong to the same pointo f impact as the smokeless load noted above. For my old cans of unused Goex, duplexing is absolutely necessary to keep the fouling down esp the last few inches of barrel. You should slug your bore to see if the 428 or 430 is needed . John Kort has written extensively on bp and duplex loads on this and other forums for the 44-40

[John Boy]

If anyone has any pointers, I’m willing to listen.
Babbott - just take the advice that has been posted on several forum articles (The Open Range - Marlin Owners and Cast Boolits) written by John Kort, w30wcf, w44wcf. And buy his Accurate 430215C designed mold

[Outpost75]

^^^^What JohnBoy said!

208702

[yeahbub]

Babbott213, I was sniffing about on the Accurate Molds website and saw some interesting candidates, particularly the 43-200QL http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200QL-D.png which has a generous lube groove for the long barrel and an oversize ogive diameter specifically for oversize bore dimensions if the chamber will not allow the use of a boolit large enough for the grooves. If the chamber is big enough, any .44 mold can be lapped out to the size you need, but if the chamber's tight, this is one route to something workable. Some years back, a fellow shooter had a Rossi '92 in 44 mag which had a bore and groove of .426 and .434 which seemed to be a chronic issue with those back then. Couldn't hit a house from the inside, even with soft lead. His chamber wouldn't allow a big enough boolit either. I wish we'd have known about these back then.

[John Boy]

Outpost - John Kort is one of my closest friends and shooting buddy. He sent me an email about the Accurate with a hand drawing of it just before putting in the order for the mold saying ... What do think about about this one, John? My reply - Sure beats the hell out of them Big Lube bullets! My rifles are very accurate with John's design
Big Lube 44
208716

[Outpost75]

Yes,, John helped me with 43-200QL for my Rossi and he tested some in his original 1873 Winchester with .435 groove diameter. That bullet is the answer for rifles with tight-necked SAAMI chambers and large groove diameter. Just size nose to fit. Driving bands will be well lubed, but left as-cast.

[john.k]

The first mold I removed the gas check groove,I overdid it,and it came out 435,was a 427215.But it wasnt a total loss,I sold it on the range notice board.Nearly knocked over in the rush.

[mzlldr]

Hi there. Am curious about your comment re not using gun oil in a black powder gun ever ---- so what do you use as a replacement ?
I look forward to your advice .
Regards
mzlldr

[cajun shooter]

Ballistol to clean. I use 2oz of the liquid in 14 oz of water to make my "moosemilk". You may spray it over the entire gun as it was developed to be used on both wood and metal by the Germans for the military. Then use a product by the name of EEZOX for your bore and other metal parts. I've used it for several years now since John Boy did a test on the Jersey shore.
Ive shot the 44wcf with BP since the 70's. John Kort and I have exchanged ideas for several years and he is a very nice man. I also designed a bullet for the 44wcf on the Accurate bullet designs. Mine is listed under the name of Fairshake which is my SASS name.
John shoots a long bbl Marlin and I shoot a Uberti 73 with a 20 in. bbl. He tested my bullit and had good results but the lube was not enough for his longer bbl. Marlin after a few magazines loaded up.
I will say that you need to change your bullet lube and I agree that you need a larger charge to provide the upset you need. I shoot 37 grs with my 210 gr. bullet

[Grapeshot]

For someone who shoots an A.Uberti 1866 in .44WCF, I pour in a charge of 3Fg until it reaches the mouth of the case. I then put a card wad on top of the powder and compress the powder until I can seat my bullet. a Big Lube .430 200 grain slug from Springfield Slim. The bullet gets a good crimp. I prime the case, before all of this, with a Magnum large pistol primer. I hope this helps. You might want to slug the bore to make sure you're using the right diameter bullet.