getting started with a Savage BVSS in .308

[jime444]

Picked up a Savage 12BVSS in .308, 1in10 twist, low round count, under 100 or so. Known gun, I've seen it shoot, 0.5moa groups several times at 100 yds with jacketed bullets.
Would love to shoot it with the local benchrest cast bullet group and like it to be reasonably competitive; hopefully 1-1.25 moa. A few questions, if I may:
1. what bullet? 311299 or 314299 or?
2. Alloy?
3. neck tension?
4. I'd like to shoot it with 2400, 16-18gr. any other powders/load that will work?

Any info you can share would be great.
Thanks in advance.
Jim

[old woody]

I too would like to see the answers to your questions as I have a similar rifle. My limited efforts were disappointing !!

[Texas by God]

jime444- Welcome to the forum. You will find hundreds of years of combined experience here. And nice folks willing to share it.

[Tom W.]

I had the single shot model. I couldn't get it to shoot cast, although it was probably my fault. 1000 yards with a 16x and Sierra Match Kings was not much of a problem.

[tomme boy]

The barrels on these are really rough. I had one that tore patches till I had around 500rnds through it of jacketed to smooth it up.

[Texas by God]

I haven't tried it in the .308, but the Lee C309fp cast from water quenched wheel weights on top of IMR 3031 shoots well in my 10" twist 30-30 rifle.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[waco]

You might try this boolit. It was designed for the .308 throat. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_322&products_id=1177
I have the plain base version and it cuts holes at 100 yards in my Rem. 788 in .308 with 10.5gr of Redot.
ACCOWW plus 1% Sn would work. Lots of powders will work well to put you in the 1600-2000fps range.
I'd shoot for around 16-1800.
I use an RCBS .310" neck expander die for my .308's
Waco

[waco]

205344

[tomme boy]

Waco. That was designed to shoot accurately to 2200fps in a 10 twist. I was able to push it to 2400 before it really went haywire. Someone with more knowledge than me and a more careful caster could push it harder.

Another one that shoots really well in 308 is this one I had made. It was made for the 308win also. Runfiverun loves it in his A10. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png

[waco]

That Accurate mold is on my short list.....

[jime444]

any more bullet suggestions? NOE or Accurate molds?

[waco]

I have heard that the original Saeco 315 or either copy( NOE or Accurate) is a great boolit to try. It's on my list.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_350&products_id=473

[jime444]

Help!!!!!! Well, that was a disaster with the Savage BVSS....... Couldn't keep them on the target at 100 yds....and the rifle leaded up after 4-5 shots near the muzzle......Tried the NOE hunter, sized .310 in WW plus 2%tin and 16-18gr of 2400.........cases neck sized with a .311 die. not impressed at all. I guess I'll take a chamber/throat/leade cast and send it to someone who can help me.........Man, that was disappointing............especially after all that work.

[waco]

How did you sort your boolits?
Was all your brass fully prepped?
What dies are you using?
Were the boolits seated to engage the rifling or was there a "jump"? If so, how much?
Was this a GC or PB boolit?
If GC, were the GC's seated squarely on the boolit?
It seems odd you had that bad of results....
I would also maybe try sizing to .311"
I'm sure others will chime in with more suggestions.

[jime444]

here's the details: brass prepped: Remington brass, FL sized to just chamber (used a headspace mic to verify consistency), all trimmed to maximum length 2.015, Lee expander plug .311 and just enough bell mouth to load the bullet by hand.
bullets: CWW plus 2%tin; all weighed +/-0.3 gr. gator gas check, run thru .310 sizer of Lyman 450 plus gas check tool.......
powder, weighed charges of 2400; 16-18 gr +/- 0.1, no chrono used.
dies: RCBS seating die, backed off for now crimp; bullets seated into the lands, touching+, engraving lands. no crimp. runout was less than .003in.

that sucked..........I'd rather throw rocks......it's cheaper. very disappointing, thought I'd be much better than that...... Spent 1/2 hour gett'n (mining) the lead out.......the only funny thing noted was bullet nose distorted a bit (.001-.002, got thicker) during sizing. Is my alloy too soft? or, do I need to get a lot harder, like #2 or even linotype metal? or, something even more drastic.......

[Jr.]

As suggested before, the savage barrels need a "break in" before they smooth out. There are many different procedures out there but basically you just need to run enough jacketed rounds through it to glaze the barrel and make it smooth out a little bit.

[Larry Gibson]

What lube?

You might WQ the bullets immediately after cutting the sprue to harden them. Also suggest H4895 powder starting at 25 gr and work up to 29 gr. Use a Dacron filler.

Also NS the cases.

[jime444]

lube was beeswax/alox blend, similar to SPG, should work fine at 1400-1600 fps.....coudnt believe I got leading with a tight bullet at those velocities.........maybe I'll try firelapping the bore to help smooth it up.........am I too soft? what are you guys using for bullet hardness?

[robg]

Lee 160 or 180 boolit works for me over 18 gr 2400 lla lubed and hornady gas check. gas Check in neck of case crimped in fcd .

[Larry Gibson]

I wouldn't firelap the bore. Leading at the muzzle is an indication the bullet isn't carrying enough lube or the lube is deficient. The NOE Hunter bullet should have sufficient lube capacity so that leaves the lube you're using isn't up to the task.

I suggest switching to a lube of proven performance for the job at hand. I suggest Lar's White Label 2500+ or the NRA 50/50 formula.

[nekshot]

Help!!!!!! Well, that was a disaster with the Savage BVSS....... Couldn't keep them on the target at 100 yds....and the rifle leaded up after 4-5 shots near the muzzle......Tried the NOE hunter, sized .310 in WW plus 2%tin and 16-18gr of 2400.........cases neck sized with a .311 die. not impressed at all. I guess I'll take a chamber/throat/leade cast and send it to someone who can help me.........Man, that was disappointing............especially after all that work.

If I had all my cast load initiations to a rifle a success, I would seriously wonder what went wrong. For me the pathway to success is as much fun as moa success. What do you have to do after you achieve what you wanted?

[jime444]

well, I would have been ok with 4in groups at 100yds, happy with 2in groups, ecstatic with MOA+.......now, paper plate groups at 50 YDS...........that's **** frustrating and disappointing........when you can't keep it on the paper, the hill looks very steep from the bottom; that's why I'm here in order to help me climb...........but, now I'm a 1000ft lower down the slope.

[tomme boy]

Get rid of the Rem brass to start. Use Federal brass. It is a little thicker in the neck. Plus it is not as hard. The cases are way more consistent in weight too.

Next, get a RCBS neck expander die in 0.310"

Next, as Larry said, get another lube and water drop bullets. Or you need to let the bullets sit at least a month or two to harden and stabilize.

And let me ask this, how does it shoot with factory made ammo? And how experienced of a shooter are you? I have a few rifles that have to shoot by a free recoil method to shoot up to its full potential. Are the scope rings tight and mounted correctly? Is the scope faulty? How is the bedding on the stock?

ALL OF THESE CAN EFFECT HOW THE GUN SHOOTS. Take a step back and check the rifle over first. Start be making sure that the barrel is completely clean and no copper remains from jacketed bullets that were fired. Then run a patch down the barrel with lube that you are using on the bullets. You are kind of seasoning the barrel by doing this.

Then change 1 thing at a time to see what is going on. If you change lube and neck tension and seating depth all at once and it gets a little better, WHICH of the things you changed made the difference?

[guicksylver]

Well...a challenge...!!! To start... why was the gun for sale? Had there any work been done to it? did you check the scope mount and rings? ..if it came with a scope take it off and check the scope mount(s) to see if it ( they) was loose?

To be honest if it had a 1-12 twist I would be happier..especially with cast bullets...with a 1-12, 17grs of 2400 under the 30 hunter will produce sub MOA groups @ 100yds..out of a .308..you might want to drop it by .5 grs with the faster twist..

There should be no need for special alloy or lube...the .308 dotes on cast bullets..AFTER ALLTHE COPPER HAS BEEN CLEANED OUT OF THE BARREL..

Try shooting another 100 rounds of jacketed out of it to help smooth the barrel out and get a base line on what the gun will do..then give it a through cleaning and start over ..remembering that it wil take at least 20 rounds to "season the" bore...start with .309 bullets and work up to .311...your groups may not be great BUT one size will be better than the others..use that one..

Here's what a Rem 700 VS with 5r rifling in 1-12 will do with cast..again start about .5 gr lower with the faster twist....good luck...Dan
https://i.imgur.com/PLUiNbe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rGaEOqE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8Fkt2sb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/mypSOlS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FttYQRt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dIk7nxj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QFi0sr9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2j5BZDX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hXLXOL3.jpg

OOOPS got the A4 in there ...BUT it's a 1-10 twist!!!
https://i.imgur.com/iBoTB7J.jpg

[tomme boy]

The 30 Hunter is made for a 308win with a 10 twist and for about 2200fps. I know, I designed with help from Larry Gibson and NOE. I ran it to 2400fps with 1.5" groups out to 300 yds.

You just HAVE TO SORT ALL bullets. Anything that looks off gets tossed. Then weight sort them. And water drop or age them. Mine shot SUN MOA up to 2100fps.

And one of the biggest things not many talk about is your lead. If you know exactly what your lead is, it will shoot better. The mold is spect for WW lead but Lyman #2 shot more consistently. Make the largest lot of lead you can at one time so it is ALL the same.

If you don't believe me PM Larry. Pretty much all that he uses.

[jime444]

ok, some answers to previous questions.
This rifle, with 174gr shpbt will shoot 0.5-0.75MOA at 100 yards (a max load of varget). It has about 300 rounds through it. I thoroughly cleaned any trace of copper from it; using sweets and other cleaners........spent a hour making **** sure.......the bore feels ok, with a slight choke towards the muzzle.
I'll try a better lube; probably 2500. The bullet casts right at .312, I size to .310 add a gas check, with a .311 case neck expansion plug. My lead was from 200lbs of mixed COWW's; Ive got a 50 lb pot; so the batch is about 50 lbs or so. I added 1% tin to help it cast. I'm going to up the hardness to at least Lyman #2, maybe all the way to a linotype mix and try that. I noted some bullet changing dimensions when I added the gas check in my Lyman 450. Yes, I'm changing a bunch of things; but when your groups at 50yards are 10in or so; there's something really ugly going on. When I get them to stay on the target; then I'll start modifying one variable at a time. thx.
As for hardness, are you guys shooting at least #2? how about linotype?

[tomme boy]

What expansion plug are you using? If you are using a 0.311'' plug and are sizing to 0.310'' then the bullet should fall into the neck.

What are you using to measure the bullets? That mold is supposed to be 0.311" I rarely ever had any bullets come out anything over 0.311''. How round are they? Wondering if you mold is being held open a little by something??? Hold it up to a light when you are casting with it and it is up to temp. You should not be able to see any light between the two halves when closed. If there is you need to find out what is causing it.

Yes lino will work. But you may run into another problem with antimony wash. That will also look like leading. If you want to try some more of the bullets and lube you have right now, tumble the bullets in ALOX after they are sized and lubed like you have been doing. It is a work around till you get another lube.

[Jr.]

Another question not sure if it was mentioned here already, did dyou slug your barel? I had a savage 110 in 30-06 that had the barrel turned backwards, that is to say the muzzle was at .311 and the Chamber end was .308. I started at the chamber end and my slug fell out half way towards the muzzle, I had a problem with keeping this rifle on paper as well, this is just a thought.

[guicksylver]

I'll try a better lube; probably 2500.
No need for a better lube any lube will get you to at least 1.5" @ 50 yds

The bullet casts right at .312, I size to .310 add a gas check,

I'm hoping you mean to say you add a gas check THEN size to .310...seat gas check using Lyman check seating tool then size, better if you had a Lee push trough as the Lyman 450 with out the correct nose punch and and even with it will bump the bullet nose section up in dia. as you size..use Lee push through for sizing and then with a slightly larger sizing die in the 450 lube the bullet.

with a .311 case neck expansion plug.
With a .310 bullet you want around a .308-.309 expanding plug

My lead was from 200lbs of mixed COWW's; Ive got a 50 lb pot; so the batch is about 50 lbs or so. I added 1% tin to help it cast. I'm going to up the hardness to at least Lyman #2, maybe all the way to a linotype mix and try that.

Again you should be getting .50 " groups @ 50 yds with your alloy..try 3-4-93 mix..no need for really hard stuff



I noted some bullet changing dimensions when I added the gas check in my Lyman 450.

Well don't that say a lot.!!!! when were you adding the gas checks? before sizing I hope

Yes, I'm changing a bunch of things; but when your groups at 50yards are 10in or so; there's something really ugly going on. When I get them to stay on the target; then I'll start modifying one variable at a time. thx.

As for hardness, are you guys shooting at least #2? how about linotype? d stuff..

If you like I will send a bizillion links to guys shooting .35" groups using COWW+ 2% tin air cooled bullets AND ONE DAY OLD....YUP SOME CAST ON THE SAME DAY... heck some are using straight lead and 2% tin

Seat bullet so base is above the neck....don't remember what bullet you are using... but in the .308 with a bullet from 155-200 grains and using 17 grs of 2400 or 21 grs RX7, 12 grs Unique you should be getting at most 1.5" @ 50 yds..

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/noes-311291-in-the-308-winchester-showing-promise.2586/

For now keep the velocity at around 1450- 1550FPS..these are UNDER Lyman's Starting loads where the accuracy is usually the best..

If this doesn't work PM me and I will send bullets that will group @ 50 that way you can compare your to mine..speaking of which can you post some pictures of yours?...Dan

[jime444]

more answers to questions:
I've been told a +.001 larger expander die to bullet size is correct.........that it provides the right amount of neck tension...from what Ive measured, the springback is about 0.0015in in the 30 cal case.....the bullet at .310 and .311 sized neck(shrinks to .3095 actual or so) felt good, the bullet was not loose in the case whatsoever. maybe go to a .310 expander die and that would provide me at least 1.5 thousandths neck tension.

so, what's the rule of thumb? a neck expansion die at .308 with a .310 bullet would give me .003-.004 tension.....that seems way too much for a lead cast bullet?

[waco]

more answers to questions:
I've been told a +.001 larger expander die to bullet size is correct.........that it provides the right amount of neck tension...from what Ive measured, the springback is about 0.0015in in the 30 cal case.....the bullet at .310 and .311 sized neck(shrinks to .3095 actual or so) felt good, the bullet was not loose in the case whatsoever. maybe go to a .310 expander die and that would provide me at least 1.5 thousandths neck tension.

so, what's the rule of thumb? a neck expansion die at .308 with a .310 bullet would give me .003-.004 tension.....that seems way too much for a lead cast bullet?

I use the RCBS .310" neck expander die and load boolits sized to .311"
I have good luck with this combo. Maybe not quite the groups Dan gets but close.
You may have to just try a few things.
Dan gives a lot of good advice. He has helped me out quite a bit and he knows his .30 cal rifles.
Waco

[tomme boy]

I sized mine 0.310'' and used the 0.310" rcbs neck expander. It was perfect for Federal bass. It has a thicker neck and that is what you want in a Savage chamber. Remington bras is too thin to fill the chamber. It is one reason Federal GMM shoots so well. And the brass is also a little softer. Remington brass is all over the place on the annealing.

Post some pics of your bullets after you have sized them. I would like to see if you have a varying bearing surface on the leade angle of the bullet.

[guicksylver]

I use the RCBS .310" neck expander die and load boolits sized to .311"
I have good luck with this combo. Maybe not quite the groups Dan gets but close.
You may have to just try a few things.
Dan gives a lot of good advice. He has helped me out quite a bit and he knows his .30 cal rifles.
Waco

Waco also knows what he is doing..my groups only appear to be smaller 'cause I shoot off bags he shoots prone and uses a bi-pod...

[jime444]

Thanks, guys......you've given me a bunch to try; working up loads this weekend; hopefully will get out next week and try again.....wish me luck and good fortune.......Thx again...Jim

[guicksylver]

Tomme Boy Is also right on about the brass....but for now there is something else really wrong...as I said I would expect you to be getting at least a 1.5" group at 50 yds with slightly undersized /oversized bullets, straight lead as an alloy, with wrong seating depth , bad lube and mixed untrimmed brass...unless you were using 45 grs of Varget....and a Loverin style bullet..

[tomme boy]

I am wondering if your seater die is swaging the bullet when seating. I had a Lee seating die that would do this.

Take a measurement of your round before and after seating the bullet. Measure a fired round on the neck. And measure your brass thickness in the neck. Post these if you can. These will help to see if you have room in your seating die and in the neck of your chamber.

[jime444]

Back from the range and feel much better about this whole operation. best got 10 shots into a 1.55 in. group (round) at 100 yds, good conditions, light wind. details:
.310 sized hunter + GC, bullet hardened up some to Lyman#2. White lube 2500. 16.5 gr of 2400 weighed. bullets weighed within +/- 0.2 gr. used a .309 neck plug after neck sizing, redding seating die. think I had about .0025 neck tension. All federal brass; trimmed to 2.015in. Fed match LR primers. loaded round measured .3405 at neck; .3435 chamber.
Think I must have been having lube failure with this barrel earlier, that plus my WW's(plus tin) were soft about 9BHN when I measured them with my saeco tester. No lead showing after 50 rounds now; checked with tight patch between groups.

At least I've got a rifle and not a shotgun, now. Thanks for all your help. Now the fun begins with lots of variables to tweek, one at a time......Thanks again.

[waco]

Well done! Keep us posted.

[charlie b]

Thanks for the work on this one. I was trying to decide on a new rifle and also decided on a 12BVSS. I got it in .308 for a couple of reasons, one being I wanted to eventually shoot cast in it. But, first I am going to dabble in long range stuff. We are lucky to have a 1000m range about 20min from the house.

Just got back from the first trip to the range for sight in and barrel break in. That group in the pic is the very first group shot with the rifle. Took me about 10 rounds to 'break in' and near a zero. This is a lower level load and will work up later. This is also the first time I ever zeroed a rifle at 200m instead of 100m.

The rifle makes me look like a much better shooter than I am. Most of the time my 100m groups look like this.

Barrel break in. In the past I'd shoot one, wipe out copper, shoot another, wipe, etc until there is little or no blue left on the patch. This time I never encountered any copper fouling. From the very first shot in the bore. I think this is a keeper. :)

Will post more when I start with cast stuff.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180618/e1ab9d929b7545baf644515d47ed6b83.jpg