CCW ammo, factory vs handloads

[DerekP Houston]

So my recent trip to the range, most of my 380 ammo shot just fine but I did get 3 rounds that took a second strike to fire. This leads me to believe if I want to carry consistent ammo I either need to start depriming prior to cleaning brass, and really check the primer pockets for debris/clean them with the tool. I checked the balistics tests for recommended and it appears at the current velocities the golddot HP would expand well for my purposes if I wanted to handload. The 90gr Hornady Critical defense got the nod for 380 factory ammo and I already have the ranger bonded for my 38 specials. Just curious what everyone else is running for the belly guns. 9mm and up the penetration and expansion tests looked a lot more reliable with different bullets and I would have more rounds in the chamber than my bersa.

Here's the post in question I was reviewing:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

edit: had a few credits and I always like powder valley, ordered some gold dots and XTP bullets to test in my guns. Will just baby the brass and see what results I get at the range. Couldn't stand the price of factory ammo...

[dragon813gt]

Looks like I'm switching ammo. I've been carrying the 135 grain Federal HydraShok. But those expansion results are pretty poor. I have a load worked up w/ XTPs that shoots the same POI. Not as cheap as cast but a whole lot cheaper then shooting the SD ammo. I think it's time to switch to the Federal HST ammo.

[DerekP Houston]

I understand your points just not really interested in anything lawyers have to say, that myth has been disproved and that will be Texas law shields problem if they have to defend me.

Then venerated fbi load did not perform as well as I expected it would nor did some of the pricier options like star and rip loads.

I don't mind paying for the performance, if it's warranted. I would only shoot 20 rnds at most every month or so to empty my magazine and test function.

I'm almost positive my results in light primer strikes were the result of high primers or not being fully seated. I'll use a single stage for my sd rounds and clean the primer pockets for each before I retest. Not a big deal with plinking ammo but the ftf on first pull had me concerned with carrying it for sd.

[tazman]

On the failure to fire issue, I agree it is probably primers not seated fully. I used to use hand priming tools and had issues like that. I have arthritis in my hands which makes hand priming tools painful and difficult to use.
I now use on press priming where I have a lot more leverage and control of seating depth.
I haven't had a failure to fire due to an improperly seated primer since I changed priming methods. I also don't clean out the primer pockets before priming on my handgun cartridges.

As far as bullets used, I load the Hornady 124 grain XTP. It expands well over a range of velocities and shoots accurately in my weapons(9mm). I have practice ammo that uses cast boolits that shoots to the same point of impact with similar accuracy.

[Rick Hodges]

With the 380 I am more concerned with penetration than expansion. I know expansion is nice but not if the round doesn't penetrate more than 5" through winter clothing and into where it needs to be. My 380 uses Ranch Dog 95gr. FP's at just under 1000 fps and I call it good as it gets.
That said, my everyday carry is a 40 S&W with 180 gr. Gold Dots.

[DougGuy]

I would seriously question the logic of carrying a .380 in defense of one's life when there are so many more effective choices! Granted any sidearm is better than no sidearm, and in recent years there have been improvements in ammo that put the lowly .380 into the "effective enough" energy zone to do the job.

Rather than read some paid writer's blog in a gun rag or manufacturer's claims, shoot it into some red clay and dig the bullet out, see how deep it goes and how it expands. Next time you are hunting and bring down a whitetail, throw an old jacket over it and put a couple of rounds into it's chest. Examine the wound channel and the recovered bullets. These two simulations will give you a much better estimation of what your edc loads will do should you have to depend on them. The same tests done with other more widely accepted self defense calibers will show you in an instant WHY those calibers are preferred. YMMV..

[DerekP Houston]

I would seriously question the logic of carrying a .380 in defense of one's life when there are so many more effective choices! Granted any sidearm is better than no sidearm, and in recent years there have been improvements in ammo that put the lowly .380 into the "effective enough" energy zone to do the job.

Rather than read some paid writer's blog in a gun rag or manufacturer's claims, shoot it into some red clay and dig the bullet out, see how deep it goes and how it expands. Next time you are hunting and bring down a whitetail, throw an old jacket over it and put a couple of rounds into it's chest. Examine the wound channel and the recovered bullets. These two simulations will give you a much better estimation of what your edc loads will do should you have to depend on them. The same tests done with other more widely accepted self defense calibers will show you in an instant WHY those calibers are preferred. YMMV..

Usually I carry an lc9s 9mm but the bersa 380 is always in my car in case I forget, and I occasionally carry it as the holster is more comfortable. I know there are "better" choices caliber wise but my wife is looking to get her chl this year and she likes the same gun. Other than my gut I'm a bit on the "smaller" side for concealment wise. If its open carry it doesn't matter as much and I'll carry my M&P 40 which passed all of the requisite tests with no issues in penetration or expansion. Just too dang hot most of the year here and I don't have 'winter coat' barriers to worry about like places up north do.

The tests appeared to be very thorough, not your typical gunrag waste of space to advertise and it's been updated a few times as new rounds come out. If I had a location to test in wetpack newspaper or such I would be more than happy but I'm limited to public ranges at the moment.

[DougGuy]

Usually I carry an lc9s 9mm but the bersa 380 is always in my car in case I forget,

Well you earn a point for this one, if they break in your car and get it, they ain't got a more formidable gun! But then it is offset by leaving a firearm in a car so 1 ball 1 strike!

[DerekP Houston]

Well you earn a point for this one, if they break in your car and get it, they ain't got a more formidable gun! But then it is offset by leaving a firearm in a car so 1 ball 1 strike!

Fair enough, it is in a locked center console at least ;). And if they steal it I'm only out 200 bucks, it is a cheap throw away for a reason. When the shields were on sale + rebate i seriously considered replacing it but couldn't justify it at the time.

[buckwheatpaul]

Derek, Thank You for the post....The Dallas Medical Examiner used to put out a similar list back in the 1970's and all the L.E. picked their ammo based on their results....Paul

[str8wal]

And if they steal it I'm only out 200 bucks, it is a cheap throw away for a reason.

Problem isn't how much money you are out, but rather what they do with that gun.

[Gray Fox]

In the .380 I'd tend to agree that it might get the penetration you need vs. just about any wonderful HP from that caliber and barrel length. If you go to the Box o'truth website you can view many different Fackler Box tests they have done and form better opinions about what works and what doesn't. I think he even does some tests with ammo folks send him. GF

[tazman]

The statement about the winter coat barrier was a good point and makes the 380 a valid choice.
Here in Illinois, we get both seasons and a little bit in between. During the cold months, I like to have a little more power.

[rintinglen]

When it is cold, I can conceal just about anything this side of an 8 3/8 inch N-frame Smith. My Sig P220 makes no more bulge than my 342 Smith, under my linesman's coat. I can go loaded for bear and no one will be the wiser. .357's and 45's,oh my. Though a full size 4 inch 38 gives me no qualms, yea though I walk...

When it is hot, I expect to have to penetrate at most a hoody, a t-shirt and 6-8 inches of thug. A .380 in the pocket means I'm discretely armed. My home defense guns are loaded with plus P loads, mostly Remington 38 special, +p 125 JHP's. No airweights need apply, since, most likely, my wife may need to use one more than I, and she is recoil sensative. They were the duty round of choice (The Police Commission's, not necessarily mine) back when I carried a badge and a gun and I have seen the reports, autopsy and otherwise, where it worked.

Give up on the notion of magic boolits. I know of three instances where in suspects took multiple 45 ACP hits, yet who continued to shoot, or in one case advance with a stolen pair of scissors. One ran over 50 yards before collapsing in an alley when he ran out of blood. Likewise, I spoke to the investigating officer's about a gang banger who took 2 32 ACP's to the chest and liver and died ere he ran 10 feet. Shooting straight is best stopper.

Back on topic, I have carried handloads and would do so again if we have another "obamanation," where factory ammo is unavailable. I have HP moulds ranging from 32 ACP up to 45 Colt. Given a supply of 40-1 or softer, I can make my own boolits that will expand, shoot reasonably accurately and function well. I don't kid myself that I can produce ammunition equal to or better than the factorries day in and day out. But I can make a box of excellent ammunition If I apply myself. Mostly I make practice ammo.

[9.3X62AL]

The biggest advantage that factory ammo has over home-rolled rounds is the sealants applied at case mouth and primer annulus. These prevent moisture or petrochemical vapors from affecting primer and powder reliability. My old shop's carry ammo in 40 S&W and 45 ACP is the Winchester White Box hollow points, which are the old Black Talon bullets dehorned and absent the uber-lethal black finish, once known as SXT Ranger. FWIW. These work--VERY WELL. I carry them and trust them. I reload practice ammo that duplicates their ballistics using cast bullets, and cycle through the carry rounds twice a year. This has been my regimen for 40 years of CCW and cop work. Failures to fire of factory ammo are EXTREMELY rare, and most such events are firearm faults.

I have attended many prosecutor "staffings" at which homicide or officer-involved shootings are presented for review prior to charges being filed. As far as the D.A. was concerned, the question of "Handload vs. Factory Load" never came up. At all. In California, too--not a place known for being a fanbase of the 2nd Amendment. It just didn't matter. Expressions of my professional and personal opinion of Massad Ayoob's ravings have gotten me removed/banned from a couple bulletin boards, so I have become a bit more circumspect in my heresies as I have matured. But my assessments remain unchanged and unrepentant.

[swheeler]

1. lawyers who say that if you load your own ammunition and use it for self defense, that the fact you used handloads will convict you just for that.

That just doesn't make any sense, sounds like horse-hockey to me.:???:

[9.3X62AL]

That has been my experience in criminal court. Civil court is more of a food-fight, but still "(M)uch sound and fury signifying nothing." (The Bard)

[DougGuy]

When a lawyer doesn't have enough of a case and needs to stretch things to fit, they will use the "You couldn't buy deadly enough ammo across the counter so you loaded it yourself." And if you don't think that won't fly, don't bet the farm on it, juries are made of the same idiots that elected Ob two terms.

[Lefty Red]

A good shoot is a good shoot. Besides, with ammo called Critical Defense, Guard Dog, Extreme Penetrator, or Ultimate Defense I don't see a problem with reloaded ammo especially if you have printed data showing the stats.

I know legal shooting gurus have said it's bad, but no one has EVER presented a case where the ammo was TOO deadly.

Lefty


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[308Jeff]

I have been long told that handloaded SD ammo is risky.

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I carry stupid expensive factory SD ammo, just to be safe.

[DerekP Houston]

I have been long told that handloaded SD ammo is risky.

Whether this is true or not, I don't know. I carry stupid expensive factory SD ammo, just to be safe.

I have some for my other guns just honestly hadn't thought of it for my 380. I ordered some gold dots and xtp from powdervalley. i'll load some up and give them a test to see how they function in my gun before I spring for buying that pricey factory ammo.

[Love Life]

The biggest advantage that factory ammo has over home-rolled rounds is the sealants applied at case mouth and primer annulus. These prevent moisture or petrochemical vapors from affecting primer and powder reliability. My old shop's carry ammo in 40 S&W and 45 ACP is the Winchester White Box hollow points, which are the old Black Talon bullets dehorned and absent the uber-lethal black finish, once known as SXT Ranger. FWIW. These work--VERY WELL. I carry them and trust them. I reload practice ammo that duplicates their ballistics using cast bullets, and cycle through the carry rounds twice a year. This has been my regimen for 40 years of CCW and cop work. Failures to fire of factory ammo are EXTREMELY rare, and most such events are firearm faults.

I have attended many prosecutor "staffings" at which homicide or officer-involved shootings are presented for review prior to charges being filed. As far as the D.A. was concerned, the question of "Handload vs. Factory Load" never came up. At all. In California, too--not a place known for being a fanbase of the 2nd Amendment. It just didn't matter. Expressions of my professional and personal opinion of Massad Ayoob's ravings have gotten me removed/banned from a couple bulletin boards, so I have become a bit more circumspect in my heresies as I have matured. But my assessments remain unchanged and unrepentant.

I thought you preferred the 9mm 147 gr gold dot load![emoji3]

On a serious note, I also carry the Winchester white box hollow point ammo when I choose to carry factory ammo.

Most of my ccw guns are usually loaded with one of my cast loads though. They shoot straight and penetrate well. I really don't even consider expansion characteristics when choosing a load to carry.

Holes kill stuff. Put enough holes in something and it'll die.

I've seen people run off after being hit multiple times with much heavier stuff than anyone will ever carry for social purposes. That has definitely influenced what ammo I carry.


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[9.3X62AL]

I thought you preferred the 9mm 147 gr gold dot load![emoji3]

You aren't close enough to drive to now--SO I CAN'T BOUNCE A ROCK OFF YOUR HEAD. More's the pity.

One must be careful while shooting those subsonic 9mm loads. They can raise such a welt.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

The easiest way around the SD ammo vs. Home rolled is this: I checked with the local sheriff and asked what they all carry in their duty firearms . I carry the same thing . No way any lawyer can spin that around to bite me in the ***! If the local LEO'S are using it, and I am as well ,then the Prosecution has no leg to stand on in the ammo arena. Just my .02 - CASTER

[Bigslug]

My take on .380 is pretty straightforward: The round doesn't have enough juice to penetrate adequately if it expands, so I opt to carry with ammo that doesn't expand.

For carry, I like Winchester's Q4206, which is a 95 grain flat nose FMJ, so you get at least some meplat crush in the deal.

For practice, I've got the Ranch Dog NOE 100 grainer, which is essentially the same slug with no copper overcoat. Since it's basically a duplicate in terms of what it does on impact, yeah, I'd probably not have any qualms carrying it, but then, since it's basically a duplicate in terms of what it does on impact, why not avoid even the possibility of "EVIL HANDLOADS!" coming up?

[9.3X62AL]

Dang--that #Q4206 is an interesting little round. It has been a long time since I have paid much attention to the 380 ACP. Have you happened to clock any of this stuff to see how close the velocity is to paper claims of 955 FPS?

[bedbugbilly]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . but I am curious. You refer to our 380 and some needing double strikes . . . yet I didn't see you mention what pistol you are using. It may very well be your ammo, primers, unclean pockets, etc. . . . BUT . . what handgun are you suing? As an example, a Smith Bodyguard, and I've read this in many posts on a number of forms, can have issues with "light strikes" requiring a second pull of the trigger. At lesst on that particular handgun, you can easily pull the trigger the second time.

My point . . . is it your handgun or your ammo . . . in this case,, your reloads? Have you had issues with the same handgun and commercially loaded ammo? I have nothing against a 380 or any other caliber . . but if a Smith Bodyguard is sometimes known for light sticks, I've got to believe that other brands might have an issue once in a while.

[DerekP Houston]

I've got no dog in this fight . . . but I am curious. You refer to our 380 and some needing double strikes . . . yet I didn't see you mention what pistol you are using. It may very well be your ammo, primers, unclean pockets, etc. . . . BUT . . what handgun are you suing? As an example, a Smith Bodyguard, and I've read this in many posts on a number of forms, can have issues with "light strikes" requiring a second pull of the trigger. At lesst on that particular handgun, you can easily pull the trigger the second time.


My point . . . is it your handgun or your ammo . . . in this case,, your reloads? Have you had issues with the same handgun and commercially loaded ammo? I have nothing against a 380 or any other caliber . . but if a Smith Bodyguard is sometimes known for light sticks, I've got to believe that other brands might have an issue once in a while.

Bersa 380 thunder, it has not needed double strikes in the past. I have not cleaned it in a few trips though and this time was all range/pistol fodder that was home brewed. I was loading on a lee turret press before and recently switched to a LnL AP. Yes I can crank out ammo faster but occasionally I get "high primers" and figured that was the cause. After I take another trip to the range I'll make a more conclusive test. This time I'll load another 20 just on the turret press and if they fire 20/20 I'll assume I've narrowed down the issue.

It is a DA/SA pistol so I can just pull the trigger again and they fired, it was just one of those "ah ha!" moments where I realized perhaps my plinking ammo should not be in my carry gun. For the new HP jacketed bullets, I'll take the time to clean the primer pockets, seat them on a single stage and load carefully instead of just yanking on the handle and loading as many as I can.

I haven't actually bought any factory ammo for either my 380's or my 45's....once I got the casting bug I just cast up fresh rounds and start the ladder test until I get good function. This case I use an NOE RN 100gr design and size to 356.

I've been loading primarily 45 acp on the LNL for now, anytime I catch a round dragging on the station after seating the primer I take it out of rotation and firmly reseat the primer on a separate press. Never had an issue with light strikes on my 1911's.

This thread was more just to see what more experienced loaders were doing. Thanks everyone for their input and advice.

[tazman]

I was talking to a couple of police officers from Peoria a few years(possibly a couple of decades, I can't remember for sure) about what ammunition they carried. They were allowed at that time to pretty much carry what they wanted.
One of the officers said he carried 38 special wadcutters loaded up to max velocity(so it was probably 3 decades). He claimed they cut their way through tissue rather than bruising their way through. He claimed the blood trail was enormous.
I have no other data about that particular load's effectiveness. He may have been feeding me B.S. and I would not be able to prove otherwise. It does sound at least possible.

[Catshooter]

The biggest advantage that factory ammo has over home-rolled rounds is the sealants applied at case mouth and primer annulus. These prevent moisture or petrochemical vapors from affecting primer and powder reliability.

Al,

I remember (pre-Y2K, I'm old) reading the same thing somewhere. And it got me to wondering. I was loading up a mass of pistol ammo at the time so I dropped three of the rounds into a little Tuperware container of water.

These were 9mm, 115 grain Remington JHPs. No sealing done by me.

After 30 days I took one out and it fired fine.

After 60 days (or so) took another, same thing.

The third one fired fine after more than 90 days in the water. The press fit of the primer and bullet was tighter than I thought.

Of course then I bought a bunch of Roy's Primer Sealant and went nuts with it: sealing everything I could find. :)


Cat

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce B did a similar thing, and included gun solvent immersion among his tests. He might have included Ed's Red among the test media. Not sure on that. One of the several cartridges immersed for quite a while did have a half-azzed ignition IIRC. I think he posted his results on here. I do know that he was pretty convinced that sealant wasn't required for most users, esp. those of us in dry desert climates. I think he even immersed primed cases in solvent, and some of those went off IIRC.

[rintinglen]

One thing I have always wondered at is the notion that you can shoot some one "a little bit."

Granted this sort of thinking was more prevalent back in the seventies, when the folks whose grandchildren are in Black Lives matter movement groups were protesting hollow points. But it still has echoes in the writings and assumptions of some gun writers. It seems it should be obvious that ballistically poking a hole in someone is life threatening, regardless of how it's done. I guess some folks still think you can use silver bullets to shoot the guns out of outlaw's hands. Or perhaps they simply don't think.

[Lefty Red]

I was talking to a couple of police officers from Peoria a few years(possibly a couple of decades, I can't remember for sure) about what ammunition they carried. They were allowed at that time to pretty much carry what they wanted.
One of the officers said he carried 38 special wadcutters loaded up to max velocity(so it was probably 3 decades). He claimed they cut their way through tissue rather than bruising their way through. He claimed the blood trail was enormous.
I have no other data about that particular load's effectiveness. He may have been feeding me B.S. and I would not be able to prove otherwise. It does sound at least possible.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/amp/

I trust Ed Harris's opinion much more than I do Chris Baker's (from Lucky Gunner's site), but they come to the same conclusion about the DEWC.

Lucky Gunner has some really good raw data on popular self defense loads and their performance in ballistic gelatin. But then come to the conclusion that 9mm is better than 357, so I take their recommendations with a grain of salt. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Side though/hi jacking.......you hardly ever see big ammo companies test WWB or Remington Value Pack hollow point loads against any of the hyper/expensive ammo. It's like they want to sell the more expensive stuff. :)

BTW, if your pistol with shoot it the Lee 105gr .358 SWC shot great out of my TCP738 and G42. Loaded to Lyman's stats.

Lefty


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[M-Tecs]

These are great numbers for 380 ammo. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

[William Yanda]

The easiest way around the SD ammo vs. Home rolled is this: I checked with the local sheriff and asked what they all carry in their duty firearms . I carry the same thing . No way any lawyer can spin that around to bite me in the ***! If the local LEO'S are using it, and I am as well ,then the Prosecution has no leg to stand on in the ammo arena. Just my .02 - CASTER

I like that idea. Even if I were in a neighboring county, the rationale would work and the authorities there probably made the same decision.

[Bigslug]

Dang--that #Q4206 is an interesting little round. It has been a long time since I have paid much attention to the 380 ACP. Have you happened to clock any of this stuff to see how close the velocity is to paper claims of 955 FPS?

I have yet to feel any inclination to, as my penetration concerns really only stem from expandables in this caliber. After I got 9 milk jugs of penetration out of a hardball-speed, hardball weight LBT-LFN .45 at 24 BHN (expanding duty loads almost universally stop in 3, sometimes 4), I pretty much quit worrying about minutiae when pouring the hard stuff. As I recall, I did a velocity workup with the .32 and .380 Ranch Dogs, and believe I also recorded jug results, but damned if I can find the thread. I seem to recall 6-7 jugs, but. . .too many projects to be sure.

At any rate, if you look at the pictures in the link on the OP, there's a lot of .380 hollowpoints with failures to expand that are penetrating in the 20" range, where as almost ALL of the ones that ARE opening up just aren't getting it done for penetration depth.

So, a few observations:

1. A lot of these .380 hollowpoints don't even have the steam to expand in bare gelatin.

2. Those that DO reliably expand don't penetrate enough.

3. Murphy would suggest that even those that aren't likely to expand WOULD expand and stop shallow when you need them to dive deep.

4. An FMJ or harder cast bullet will give you better predictability than an HP that might, or might not do its thing at the lower energy levels being discussed.

5. Cheap FMJ is a lot more likely to save your bacon in the .25/.32/.380 auto performance envelope than expensive HP, and it's a lot more likely to be lawyer-proof than a home-cast solid that will perform exactly the same way.

[Thumbcocker]

On the topic of ammo for self defense and what a prosecutor will or won't do I will offer the following:

I am currently a prosecutor and have been since 1989. I have dealt with two situations where citizens shot BG's and as the office "gun guy" was nominated to speak with both of the citizens. In each case I told the citizen that our office had no intention of taking any action against them for their use of force. In both cases the BG lived. To my knowledge no civil action was taken against the citizen.

Some facts to consider:

The officeholder, called State's Attorney here but also called District Attorney or other things in other jurisdictions is an elected official. They answer to the voters and try to reflect the values of their voters. Despite what you may have heard about Northern Illinois, much of Illinois is rural, middle of the road or conservative, and pretty pro gun. The office holder wants to keep his or her job and doesn't want to go out of their way to anger their constitute base.

Additionally prosecutors have an ethical duty to seek justice. What does the evidence show and will it support a case.

The two shootings I have personal knowledge of were absolutely justified and there was not even the remotest thought given to charging the citizen. As to the firearms and ammo one was a WWII bring back CZ .32 and the other was a IIRC Jennings .22 LR. I know the Jennings used Stingers. I have no idea what the .32 was loaded with. To be honest me, my boss, and the investigating officers did not care what the ammo choice was. There was simply no issue about the shootings.

I cannot speak about more urban areas of Illinois or what might have been the result of civil cases would have been ( I can make an educated guess based on the make up of juris on cases I tried in the jurisdiction where the shootings took place).

I personally carry factory ammo based on its effectiveness based on studies I read on the few occasions I carry a firearm but if I am knocking around the farm I carry my loads in whatever pistol "fits my hand best" that day.

I can not speak to results or "what if" about what might happened in a specific jurisdiction with a different political or cultural environment.

[Bigslug]

Bruce B did a similar thing, and included gun solvent immersion among his tests. He might have included Ed's Red among the test media. Not sure on that. One of the several cartridges immersed for quite a while did have a half-azzed ignition IIRC. I think he posted his results on here. I do know that he was pretty convinced that sealant wasn't required for most users, esp. those of us in dry desert climates. I think he even immersed primed cases in solvent, and some of those went off IIRC.

I cannot speak to solvents, but I can speak to Winchester SXT's and extreme humidity. We had a sergeant in a plainclothes assignment who was carrying something smaller day-to-day, while leaving his big duty gun and belt in the trunk of a city car that had a faulty seal. During our annual SoCal "monsoons", 3-4 inches of water flooded the spare tire well. This went unnoticed for several weeks, creating a mini-Vietnam inside the trunk. The Glock came through it with flying colors; the blued 870 in the rack did not; every single one of the 46 rounds of SXT went off as if fresh out of the box.

That said, one needs to regard one's carry rounds as perishable once you remove them from the proverbial "cool, dry place". The top two rounds especially get beat up a lot downloading and rechambering. The nice thing about these little .380's is that the ideal carry ammo is also range practice ammo, so cycling out for new is as easy as going out to train.

[Jeffrey]

The best argument I have heard on the negatives of handloads for self defence is that factory loads are a known thing. It is easier to determine how far the perp was from the shooter (powder burns) when shot by a factory load than by an unknown hand load. That being said, I carry Glaser Safety Slugs in warm weather and Federal Hydra Shocks in cool weather in the firearm. Spare magazines and speed loaders for carry are all HydraShocks because Glaser is PROUD of their ammo. All of my hunting, practice and SHTF ammo are handloads.

[mold maker]

When and if I ever NEED to draw and fire in self-defense, what comes out of the barrel is of little consequence as long as it does the job. I'm only concerned with stopping a fight and walking away as unharmed as possible. The damage done to my attacker, as long as it serves the purpose, is of no consequence to me. I'll deal with legal problems as a live person.
I wouldn't carry a single shot and won't stop firing till the fight is over. I'd prefer to deal with 10 on a jury, then six carrying my casket.

[9.3X62AL]

Pretty decent summation, MM. 98% of the real world has similar outlooks. It's the fringes of reality where idiots spout drivel and that drivel starts to reproduce. Add on the compassion fascists and bottom-feeding advocate-class, and reality gets bent severely.

[DerekP Houston]

Good to know, thanks gents! I'm going to switch back to my turret press for 'carry' ammo and I'll use the jacketed bullets just so i can keep them separated for now. A FTF here and there doesn't bug me with my cheap components but something I'd like to avoid with carry ammo. Will run a few additional tests when i get back next weekend and take some to the range. Appreciate everyone chiming in here good food for thought.

[Texas by God]

My thoughts on the matter- .380 and below I woud use factory imported fmj ammo (hotter) for penetration. 9mm and above I like Hornady Critical Defense. I tested it by shooting down into 5 gallon buckets of water from 10' above. Consistent perforance and the .45 acp will break the bucket from hydraulic force. It's cheap enough to defend my life with. Reloads for play and hunting, factory for defense.

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[Walkingwolf]

I carry anything that gets the fudds panties in a twist. I'm just like that though.

[DerekP Houston]

apparently I need to do inventory more often, down to my last box of carry ammo for the 38's too. At least the prices are back down to normal now, last time I ordered was ~3 years ago. Don't think casting has really saved me any money though ;) I just shoot more.

[tazman]

Don't think casting has really saved me any money though ;) I just shoot more.


Ain't that the truth. My wife constantly reminds me about how much reloading was going to save me.

[9.3X62AL]

Well, the "Shoot more" part of the picture was the object all along.

[dragon813gt]

Anyone that got into casting/reloading to save money was fooling themselves. I could have bought countless tens of thousands of rounds for what I've spent on tooling. But I like being self sufficient.

[sqlbullet]

I always tell people that getting into reloading/casting is at best a shoot more for the same money situation, and often just a new hobby.

But...Truth be told I lucked into a good situation with a lead supply and I probably make money now overall. However, I worked hard to cultivate contacts and create this situation.

As far as handloads for carry loads, I pattern my handloads after pull down data from boutique ammo makers that use starline brass. Not sure how you can tell if the loads in my gun were loaded by me or by buffalo bore.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

Anyone that got into casting/reloading to save money was fooling themselves. I could have bought countless tens of thousands of rounds for what I've spent on tooling. But I like being self sufficient.

Same here. I lied to myself ,knowing darn good and well I wasn't gonna save any money. I guess in hind sight self sufficiency was my goal all along. Plus I get to tinker with different equipment, work up experiments, and it's kinda like a therapeutic effect to boot. - CASTER

[charlie b]

I agree with a couple of folks.

.380 (or 9mm MAK in my case) load with hardball of some type. I use the Buffalo Bore because I also carry it in the field. If not that then factory (foreign) loads. As noted the .380 hollow points just don't have enough penetration, unless they don't open up.

For the other pistols I just ask what the local cops carry and use it. By the same reasoning I used to carry 158gn SWC in my .38spl (FBI load).

Reloads? Only for the range or hunting. YMMV.

[9.3X62AL]

but if you use the same gun and ammo as the local cops do, aren't you just going to be accused of being a nutjob who thinks hes a cop?

Allegations are easy. Proof is a tougher nut to crack. And printer's ink is cheap. I haven't subscribed to a newspaper since January 1997, and cancelled the day after the local birdcage liner splashed the front page with the color photo of our two murdered deputies as found on the scene of their death. Newswhores will say and do ANYTHING to boost circulation. Pay them no mind, and same goes for the bottom-feeding bar card holder that sues you when the dust settles. Get insured by NRA if you CCW, use good judgement, and you will be largely attorney-proof. Aquarium owners have little suckerfish in their tanks to keep things tidy--view CCW insurance coverage in that light. Many homeowner's insurance policies cover events occurring inside your residence and on your property--most have "riders" you can amend the coverage with to include public CCW.

If it comes to that, say "I use the loads authorized by the local law agency because if those loads are good enough for their purposes--saving their lives--then the same ammo should be appropriate for citizens." Assuming the issue ammo is available over the counter--and it almost always is--have at it. My old shop issues Winchester White Box HPs.......180 grainers in 40 S&W, and 230 grainers in 45 ACP. Again--in my 28 years doing cop work, the question of factory load/handload never came up, the sole focus of the prosecutor was whether the shooting was justified. IME, most prosecutors give considerable benefit of doubt to citizens engaged in lawful activities who are set upon by predators with lethal/great bodily harm inflicted or attempted.

[robertbank]

Just a note from above the 49th. If your life is threatened and you were to kill the BG the only question is in our courts..."Was the individuals life threatened?. If it was then the crown cannot put itself in the place of he/she who was threatened - a very old English common law concept and claim life was not threatened enough to justify killing the BG. That said the test is reasonable as it relates to being threatened. A BG saying is going to kill you and has no object in hand to do so would be a tougher call than a fellow brandishing a knife and advancing on you. In short an obvious defensive encounter is the test. If the BG is running away from you, your life isn't being threatened so shooting the BG as he leaves the scene is not a good idea. Our Bill of Rights does not include Property Rights so stealing your son's bicycle is not grounds to shoot the individual who is stealing the bike.

The Castle Principle is, again embedded in English Common Law so when it comes to defending yourself in your own home - the Law is clear. You can take any means necessary to defend yourself. I have a friend who is retired Judge and I think that is as good of description as he likely would give after a few beers.

I can't recall a report of any incident where an individual killed someone up here while being attacked by an individual. There surely must be cases, I just have not heard of any. We only have 550 ish murders up here on any given year and those that involve firearms ( about 150 per year IIRC) are mostly drug dealers arguing over who should be standing on which street corner.

I tend to think some of the examples folks tend to worry about are red herrings. If it is a legal shoot you walk, if not you don't.

Take care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Bob--

Canada's standard seems to be identical to my agency's policy on use of lethal force, and the citizen standard is practically identical. The USA and the States plagiarized the living daylights out of English Common Law, for good reason--it was well thought-out. Problems result when tyrants try using the shield the law provides as a sword, which is why we parted company with Britain. No sooner than that was accomplished, we adopted much of the Old Country's best ideas and put them in motion. Go figure. Americans are a rebellious lot, but consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Allowances are made for private citizens that a law officer might not receive, including retired duffers like me. There is a higher expectation of restraint on the part of trained officers, and that is reasonable. As always, avoidance is the best policy if at all possible. Take the truck--steal the yard furniture. They won't get into the safe with the war toys and jewelry. I don't want to shoot some dweeb over property, esp. if he's running away. Not my problem any more. Losses like that are why I carry insurance. I would be reluctant to shoot someone in my house unless he/she was armed, and if the perp just ran off I still wouldn't fire. I sleep with enough ghosts as it is.

[tazman]

If I remember correctly, here in Illinois, years ago, you were required to retreat if there was any option at all to do so. So if you shot anyone, even inside your home, and had a possible escape path and didn't use it, you were considered at fault. Manslaughter charges at the least. You couldn't even claim you were in fear for your life. That was reserved for police officers. You had to run.
Things have changed here in recent years. We still don't have a Castle Doctrine that I am aware of, but at least you can defend yourself.
I would love to be proved wrong about these statements but this is how I remember it.

[Petrol & Powder]

This discussion seems to come up with some regular frequency.

Getting back to the OP's issue with Failure to Fire and handloads - this is generally a result of primers that aren't seated fully or oil contamination of the primer (in the case of an ammunition failure) OR insufficient firing pin protrusion and/or force (in the case of a firearm failure)

As 9.3x62AL pointed out, failures of factory ammunition are rare and when it does occur, the firearm is more likely the issue. When we switch to handloads, the failures tend to be attributed to the ammunition more often and are usually due to improperly seated primers.

I agree with 9.3x9862AL that one of the huge advantages of factory ammo is the sealant applied to the case mouth and primer. Metallic cartridges are reasonably waterproof & oil resistant to start with but the sealants used in factory loaded ammo is a plus.

Now, with that out of the way - let's talk about the criminal and civil liability of handloaded ammo.

I totally agree that a justified use of force is a justified use of force. In the criminal arena, the type of ammunition is very likely to be a non-issue.

In the CIVIL arena it is LIKELY to ultimately be a non-issue in the end BUT ; why fight that battle if you don't have to?

A lot of people have some difficulty understanding the difference between criminal and civil law.

If someone uses deadly force, they will come under scrutiny. That scrutiny will include the potential of criminal prosecution (but not the certainty of criminal prosecution) AND the potential of a civil action.

It is impossible to prevent someone from suing you. They may not be able to successfully sue you but there is NOTHING that you can do to prevent a lawsuit. The goal isn't to prevent a lawsuit because it is absolutely impossible to prevent a lawsuit. The goal is to prevent a SUCCESSFUL lawsuit. With that in mind, the type of ammunition used will probably not be a significant factor in a civil suit but why even open that door ?

OK, moving on.

The .380 auto cartridge - There was a time when the .380 was the best you could do in a small, blowback, semi-auto pistol. The limitation wasn't the cartridge but rather the guns that were available. If you were confined to a small, lightweight, concealable semi-auto pistol; the .380 Auto was about the most potent cartridge that could be chambered in those small guns.
Times changed and we now have small locked breach semi-autos chambered in 9mm Luger and larger calibers. The selection of small GUNS got better.

So we now have better options in small guns. The .380 is a fine cartridge but we have more choices now.

Any ammunition carried in a self defense firearm needs to be as reliable as possible and as effective as possible.
We have a lot of commercially available ammunition that fits that criteria.

[Rick Hodges]

In 31 years in law enforcement, being involved with criminal and civil suits arising from use of force and shootings, both justified and not.....the only place I have ever seen or heard of the issue of handloaded v factory ammo was in a magazine piece by a shill who touts the be an expert while making money selling his brand of factory ammo and the pages of websites. Nobody has ever shown an actual case.....where the determining factor in either criminal or civil cases was whether or not factory or non factory ammo was used. We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[dragon813gt]

We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Three, now don't try to tell me otherwise [emoji6]

[9.3X62AL]

In 31 years in law enforcement, being involved with criminal and civil suits arising from use of force and shootings, both justified and not.....the only place I have ever seen or heard of the issue of handloaded v factory ammo was in a magazine piece by a shill who touts the be an expert while making money selling his brand of factory ammo and the pages of websites. Nobody has ever shown an actual case.....where the determining factor in either criminal or civil cases was whether or not factory or non factory ammo was used. We seem to love to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I know EXACTLY who you are describing as a "shill". If that fraud could be purchased at actual value and sold at perceived worth, the profit margin would be decadent.

[Walkingwolf]

I know EXACTLY who you are describing as a "shill". If that fraud could be purchased at actual value and sold at perceived worth, the profit margin would be decadent.

Whoever it is, he is a boob.

[robertbank]

Whoever it is, he is a boob.

Eh you might be on to something.

Take Care

Bob
ps The NHL season starts tonight. The world order has been restored. "Here we go Oilers...Here we Go"

[DerekP Houston]

Got a bit off track from my original question but still all good input. Thanks gents. My new turret press arrived monday and I'll make sure to clean the primer pockets and seat them a bit more forcefully prior to loading up my rounds. I'm the first to admit it was probably user error, I got addicted to the progressive press quicker than I realized. I've also got a spare lcp 380 to test the same rounds in to see if it was my gun or not.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[tazman]

P&P,

In AZ ... If it is a justified self-defense shooting (if you are not convicted of the crime), or you are not charged criminally ... NO civil case can be brought against you for the shooting.

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Derek---I have been thinking about the 380 as a self defense round since you started this thread. If you are comfortable with the gun and have reliable ammunition, I see no reason not to carry it. After all, bullet placement is more important than the size or power of the projectile. I think you will be able to work out the issues you have with the primers. After that it is all in getting confidence in the gun.

[9.3X62AL]

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Roger that. Comprehensive tort reform nation-wide is long overdue.

[JBinMN]

I wish other states were that enlightened.

Derek---I have been thinking about the 380 as a self defense round since you started this thread. If you are comfortable with the gun and have reliable ammunition, I see no reason not to carry it. After all, bullet placement is more important than the size or power of the projectile. I think you will be able to work out the issues you have with the primers. After that it is all in getting confidence in the gun.

The bolded is what is my families goal when we shoot. Particularly our .380 pistol. We practice using those little paper plates @ 10 yds most of the time, then work on close ups at speed. For any who might not be familiar with those little plates I think they are called "cake" or "snack" plates and are about 2/3rds or half the size of the regular sized ones. Point being that they are approximately the size of a persons head. More than one of us can hit most rounds in the size of a baseball more times than not, in the middle of the plate, with some "fliers' on occasion. I am not saying that to boast, but to say that the target is about the size of a attackers head, and bullet placement into that area should an attacker decide to try to attack, would likely end the confrontation. If they are not being hit in the head, they are likely gonna be concerned about that & ducking & most likely forgetting all about advancing further.

IMO, the goal is discourage/end the confrontation. Of course , there are better shooters & maybe a lot better options of firearm to consider. But, as Tazman said, "Bullet placement" goes a long way, regardless of how distant the target & the circumstances of preventing /ending an assault. Even up close, & little as it is, that .380 is better than nothing, & even a determined attacker would likely take note of it. A little dog can bite , just as much as a big one.

If one thinks about some crazed drugged up person attacking them, I try to consider , "what are the chances?" that it is going to happen & "How did I get myself into that situation in the first place?", to let them become a danger to me or mine. Situational awareness is just as important as bullet/shot placement also, IMO. Perhaps staying away from places that would allow for this to happen would be the best bet. & if one considers that this could happen in ones home, then, the distance is closer & your shot placement should be easier than at 10 yds.. I reckon if you are still concerned get a more powerful carry firearm.

----------------

Although I have strayed a mite form the OP subject, I will add to try to get things back on track.

I do not carry on a regular basis, although I have something close to hand at all times, just not on my person. At home, or even when traveling. I do not put myself in places I would need to CC, and I live rural, so the likelihood of issues that might involve me in a bad situation with others is quite limited. What might be at hand though, may or may not have factory made ammo in it. I am of the mindset that if it comes down to self defense (and defense of others), it does not matter what I have to use, if I am justified in my actions. It does not matter to me if it is a homemade club or a baseball bat, a store bought cane or a walking stick I made from something I picked up on a nature walk, Or, any item I decide to use to do the self defense actions. Including using ones body. Any judge should understand this, or the jury should have that explained to them, if the subject of factory or home made ammo being used was every to come up in a self defense trial. [ If I am on that jury & someone starts bringing that comparison up, if the self defense was justified, the method or implements used in that self defense are irrelevant to my thinking & the trial would probably end up with a not guilty verdict... Or, a hung jury or jury nullification if I was the only one to think like I do.].

If someone is concerned enough that they want to make the decision to carry factory or home made, I would suggest that you carry factory if you think it would be an issue of some kind, based on the popular thinking & laws where you are at.

If you are concerned with "your" loading/reloading of carry ammo, then you will either have to be very diligent & precise in your choice of components & assembly. Then test fire some out of those your load batch & then maybe use the rest for your carry ammo to trust your own loads... ( load 50 & test 25. or whatever suits ya. If you have no failures with the tested rounds, you likely will likely not have any for the rest of that batch. The "odds" will help ya decide. Then repeat this whole operation when ya need to turn over the ammo for newer stock.)


Or, trust the factory rounds to be better than your own loads. ( I would still do the "test". Even factories have issues from time to time. Same as with firearms, some are lemons & some are well made, right? ;) )

G'luck in your decision(s)!

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P,

In AZ ... If it is a justified self-defense shooting (if you are not convicted of the crime), or you are not charged criminally ... NO civil case can be brought against you for the shooting.

It may be a very brief case under those circumstances but there is nothing that can be done to stop a civil suit.

Just because a civil action is likely to be unsuccessful doesn't mean it cannot be attempted.
Just because a civil case will be dismissed very early in the process, doesn't mean that process will never be commenced.

I know it may seem like semantics but the proper way to phase that is to say, "no successful civil case may be brought against you".

Most, but certainly not all, attorneys will avoid filing frivolous lawsuits that are highly likely to be unsuccessful. Most, but not all, attorneys will avoid exposing themselves to sanctions for filing frivolous lawsuits. And then there is the pro se (unrepresented) plaintiff that charges ahead on his/her own without the assistance of counsel.

I have been on the defense side of civil suits and even when the actions of the plaintiff are outrageously beyond the law, the actions are still commenced. Those actions do not survive long ......but they absolutely begin.

I'm not trying to play word games with you or anger you. A law suit that is prohibited by statute may die a VERY quick death in court but it will still get to court.

[DerekP Houston]

It may be a very brief case under those circumstances but there is nothing that can be done to stop a civil suit.

Just because a civil action is likely to be unsuccessful doesn't mean it cannot be attempted.
Just because a civil case will be dismissed very early in the process, doesn't mean that process will never be commenced.

I know it may seem like semantics but the proper way to phase that is to say, "no successful civil case may be brought against you".

Most, but certainly not all, attorneys will avoid filing frivolous lawsuits that are highly likely to be unsuccessful. Most, but not all, attorneys will avoid exposing themselves to sanctions for filing frivolous lawsuits. And then there is the pro se (unrepresented) plaintiff that charges ahead on his/her own without the assistance of counsel.

I have been on the defense side of civil suits and even when the actions of the plaintiff are outrageously beyond the law, the actions are still commenced. Those actions do not survive long ......but they absolutely begin.

I'm not trying to play word games with you or anger you. A law suit that is prohibited by statute may die a VERY quick death in court but it will still get to court.

Again, this is why I keep Texas Law Shield up to date.



If you "use" a firearm or any legal weapon in Texas under the Texas Law Shield Firearms Legal Defense Program, our program attorneys will represent you in any legal proceeding (criminal or civil), for zero additional attorneys' fees. This includes all criminal charges arising from a "use" of a gun or any legal weapon.

Police Investigations
Grand Jury Proceedings
Trial, both Criminal and Civil

[9.3X62AL]

From the "MY EYES GLAZE OVER" Department........

Rick Hodges.......did you see where Our Favorite Shill was beating his gums AGAIN about the LV/Route 91 atrocity? Ugghh.

[Rick Hodges]

From the "MY EYES GLAZE OVER" Department........

Rick Hodges.......did you see where Our Favorite Shill was beating his gums AGAIN about the LV/Route 91 atrocity? Ugghh.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people need to seek attention....there seems to be a terrible hole in their psyche that needs filling. They are just incapable of seeing what damned fools they are.

[sawinredneck]

Someone please pm me on this "shill", curiosity is killing me I guess.

[9.3X62AL]

The Shill loves to litigate and petition bulletin board sites over negative commentaries. Tread lightly.

[bob208]

in pa we have stand your ground and castle doctrine. which means if it is a good shoot then the one shot nor his family can not sue.

many many years ago I loaded for some police forces. this was in the wheel gun days. they had mag handguns but were not allowed to use mag ammo. so they got a lot of skeeter skelton loads. never a problem about being hand loads.

[birch]

I am a fairly good handloader and I've experienced all sorts of bullet ad powder combinations that are much better than factory ammo.

With that being said, don't think a 25 round box of Hornady critical defense can be beat. I load my wife's SIG 238 with as many of those babies I can stuff in the mag with one on the flight deck. The folks at Hornady have achieved self defense ammo perfection. I practice with my 1\3 as expensive hand loads and send her out the door with the best ammo money can buy---NOT MINE!!!!

[DerekP Houston]

Happy to say 100+ rounds with out a hiccup through my bersa thunder. Hornady XTP were slightly more accurate and .2gr less powder than the max load for 90gr golddots. Looks like a thorough cleaning and slowing down my loading process fixed my issues.

[dragon813gt]

Looks like a thorough cleaning and slowing down my loading process fixed my issues.
Good to hear. Finding and fixing an issue is always satisfying :beer:

[kysunfish]

Staying to the light strikes thing I will say that the piece of glass on my bench has helped me detect a lot of high primers over the years.

[robertbank]

Staying to the light strikes thing I will say that the piece of glass on my bench has helped me detect a lot of high primers over the years.

Good tip....thanks.

I try to avoid S&B brass for this reason. I am not sure if they have a crimp on their primers or just tight primer pockets but I find using S&B brass a high primer farm.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

"......a high primer farm." Stealing this. Too funny, Bob.

[Hans Gruber]

The only "risky" part is reliable function. IF you are an accomplished hand loader it is quite possible to produce ammo that will fire with the same degree of reliability as factory ammo.
As for "liability" in terms of using a hand load, that's about 99% "Hollywood hogwash" and 1% folklore. The fact is, if one is covered by "justifiable self defense" it matters NOT what was the means used to stop the attacker....a bullet, a car, an axe, a sword, a light saber, etc. ANY "argument" that can possibly be presented by an assistant DA that you deliberately loaded "cruel and inhuman" ammo can be equally applied to the simple fact that you "deliberately" PURCHASED "cruel and inhuman" ammo....for what it's worth.

Over the years I have begun to seriously rethink the entire concept of non-magnum handgun ammo and have found myself preferring to carry FMJ because I KNOW it is more likely than expanding ammo to pass far enough into and through a recipient to hit all that can be hit. Virtually ALL modern self defense ammo is underloaded using bullets engineered to "pass" the "gel test"...IMO. Go over to Lucky Gunner and view their EXTENSIVE results of firing a wide variety of handgun SD ammo and let your own eyes be the judge.

I can buy a 50rd box of Remington .40 S&W 165 grain FMJ for less than $18, and it develops an honest 484 lb-ft of kinetic energy. In a "performance" load I'm looking at $25-$50 for 20 rounds of ammo that generates less than 400 lb-ft of KE - often less than 350 lb-ft. Granted the FMJ round does not create the same impressive temporary expansion "bubble" but after the gel settles down, a truncated cone FMJ does create a respectable "permanent crush cavity." It also tends to go THROUGH a lot more.

The "interesting" thing about gelatin test is that they are completely UNLIKE an actual human. There is no "bone" to be passed through and this is more than significant. So regardless of what ANY gel test indicates, even today, there is no proper data that validates the effectiveness of an expanding slug over a FMJ slug.

Having said this, velocity IS a very good indicator of terminal effectiveness. Even a non-expanding pistol round, driven fast enough, creates a significant "expansion bubble" in gelatin...

For well over 100 years now, various militaries and police agencies around the world have relied on FMJ handgun ammo and if it were totally dismal in terminal performance, by now there would have been a global push toward something more effective. The fact is, if a pistol bullet hits something that matters...the recipient goes down. If it does not the recipient continues the fight. The exact SAME FACT applies to HP and expanding, low-velocity ammo....

[Hans Gruber]

When we go out into the field carrying a .460 Rowland for protection against bear attack WHAT ammo do we prefer? A 255 grain hard cast lead round nose, flat point. This bullet is NOT designed to expand, but instead designed to punch THROUGH to the vitals and beyond.

The fact is, humans are basically the same size as a small bear, a mountain lion, a rogue deer...etc. Thus, when using "lethal force" against a human why do we "presume" a 9mm is "enough?" We would certainly NOT presume that for a 200 lb white-tail deer!

Even IF we compare non-expanding bullets, "magnum" level handgun bullets tend to be far more effective than sub-magnum calibers. The "problem" is that calibers sufficient to reliably put down a large human don't fit within the "self-defense" carry paradigm.

[sawinredneck]

The major flaw with that philosophy is many of us live in and carry defensively, in urban areas. A bullet “punching all the way through” increases the chance of hitting someone beyond the assailant, that we really don’t want to hit.
The reason militaries use ball ammo is they did studies years ago. If they killed a soldier they just tied up one or two people taking care of him. If they just wounded a soldier they could tie up to a dozen people taking care of them. It has nothing to do with the lethality of the round, sorry.

[Walkingwolf]

The major flaw with that philosophy is many of us live in and carry defensively, in urban areas. A bullet “punching all the way through” increases the chance of hitting someone beyond the assailant, that we really don’t want to hit.
The reason militaries use ball ammo is they did studies years ago. If they killed a soldier they just tied up one or two people taking care of him. If they just wounded a soldier they could tie up to a dozen people taking care of them. It has nothing to do with the lethality of the round, sorry.I have heard from a friend, of a friend, married to a third cousin, that knows a guy who heard that rumor. But I have never seen an actual citation to such.

IMO a person to be responsible has to ALWAYS be aware what is behind the threat, no matter what the ammo. I also heard rumors that people tend to run when there is gun play, and don't usually stand behind a bad guy, or a good guy. If your in a crowd, maybe it is a good idea of having more than one option for SD.

[sawinredneck]

For a time I worked security at a bar, it was in my best interest to know the penetration of the rounds I was using. Just saying not everyone’s circumstances are identical.

[sawinredneck]

And it seems the US military is changing it’s mind on the matter even.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/hollow-point-ammunition-us-army/amp/