327 Fed vs 44 Special

[OnHoPr]

I have just been pondering the two calibers. Both seem borderline for under 50 yd deer. I do not want to track over 100 yds really. The 327 fed if you could get squirrel accuracy @ 50 yds seems like with a 125 gr hardcast should do the job on a deer neck. Have any of you done the double lung boiler room shot with a soft boolit with the caliber with successful outcome. The 44 special loaded close to 1000 fps with a soft 240 gr should do a boiler room shot under the 50 yd mark and not have to track to the next county.

My ponderance is based on that I might not be able to handle the 44 mag as well in my coming years. I personally think the 357 is to light or less expectant for deer, and a little large for squirrel. Though, the 357 can do a fair job on targets. I do have more respect for the larger cal with a hunk of lead. Though, with a bunch of range time plinking I think the 44 special might become less comfortable than the 327 fed with a 32 H&R or 32 long. The 32 long seems like it could be a decent little squirrel round.

Another use for an excuse to go to the range would be for CBA postal shoots whether the 50 yd irons or 100 yd scope. I don’t think I would put a scope on the 44 special, but something like the Single Seven might be able to at least present a target. A scope might help with aging eyes for squirrels. I am not sure with the 1 in 16 twist. I noticed that neither cal has a double action with a 6” barrel. They are all kinda short for my taste with 3. or 4. something inches.

There is a small wedge percentage on the pie chart concerning SD.

Pie chart consist of
50% plinking
20% squirrel
15% deer
8% CBA
7% SD

Thoughts

[Texas by God]

It sounds like you already have a .44 mag? There's your .44 special! .433" round ball over 3 grs Bullseye for squirrels. The 240 gr at 1000 fps will get that deer at 50 yards assuming good shot placement. But by all means buy a .327 Federal as well. It can match the .30 carbine that lots of people that don't know better kill deer with every year!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

er ...

[str8wal]

If you think the 327 is enough for deer and self-defense ... and guessing that you cast & reload ... the 357 will do everything the 327 will and more!

What he said ^^^

Do not dis the original magnum. With the right bullet it is easily a 50 yard deer gun, and some.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[OnHoPr]

I'm confused ...

If you think the 327 is enough for deer and self-defense ... and guessing that you cast & reload ... the 357 will do everything the 327 will and more!

A accurate 38 Special wadcutter load will just as easily take small game as the 32's ... with the option of heavier boolits for deer ...


I was trying to relay that with a 50 yd squirrel accuracy load on a neck shot deer was sufficient for deer, not necessarily the boiler room. Just about any accurate (2MOA) rested CF pistola cartridge will take a deer down with a neck shot.

I don't think you will get 2MOA out of a 44 RB load. Maybe if you had some MceDees fries at the park they would be accurate enough.

Heck they make 22 Derringers for SD or PD, so that is a whole spectrum of opening up a can of worms.

Comfort with recoil and multiple shots is where the 327 comes to mind. It also might have a better chance of 2MOA.

The pistola would only be a secondary weapon in the deer usage. Probably only short range shots on the same shoulder side as the long weapon while in a blind.


more than one rabbit or quail has been taken with down loaded 44 or 45's!

I can see possibly a rabbit, maybe squirrel, but a quail or timberdoodle hit with one and your getting into the pate' material. I just don't think I will be that good of shot to hit one on the wing though.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

r ... ;)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

[/url]

[rking22]

I cant say on the 327, but there is nothing marginal about the 44 special on 50 yard deer! Might also suggest a nice custom Gp 100 in 41 Special. Throats WILL be right and it is accurate , don't see them every day either!

[megasupermagnum]

I've never shot a deer with a .327 federal, but I think it would do better than one would think. Not with the tiny 85 and 100 grain self defense hollow points, but some bigger bullets. I'm shooting 120 grain cast SWC in my LCR, and get 950 fps from my 1.8" barrel. It would be even faster if I used a slower powder. With a 6"+ barrel, I would have no problems using it on deer. Remember that people shoot deer with .223 Remington. Inside 50 yards, just about anything will work.

[rintinglen]

Were it I, I'd go for the 44 special and never look back. I have three Ruger 327's, 2 single 7's and a 4,2 inch sp101, but they are deer guns only in the mind.

Mine are extremely accurate, enough so that in a perfect scenario you might make that spine shot, but then you might not. The spine of a deer is only about 2 inches thick. A boolit that misses low will result in a wounded animal heading for the high country, to live or die as dependent upon their immune system and what got hit on the pass through. A 125 grain boolit at 1200 or so FPS has little power to spare.

A 44 launching a 44-250 at 1000 fps has a bit more umph to work with. A caster can find many boolits to fit a 44. I have moulds ranging from 110 to 280 grains. I could conjure up something for everything from Squirrels to Black bear for my 44's. I would be hard pressed to come up with a .327 load that I would trust to do the job on a decent size deer.

I have 7 44's, 4 Maggies and 3 Specials. I would take any of them before going afield with a 327 looking for deer.

[cainttype]

I'd consider any cartridge that I felt needed to be placed in the spinal column of a deer's neck to be effective as inadequate, even unethical.
Handguns are obviously handicaps to the average shooter when compared to rifles, and I'm no fan of neck-shots with rifles either. I've seen too many failures that "barely" missed the spine and caused unnecessary suffering (sometimes EXTREME suffering), to ever recommend neck shots as a good practice.
Compound that with the fact that sub-2 MOA revolvers are more the exception than the rule, and VERY few shooters can consistently hold that well from common field positions, and the arguements against borderline cartridges gets more difficult to overcome.

The 44 Spcl is fully capable of cleanly harvesting most medium game well beyond the 50 yard mark, and practically any hunting revolver can be scoped if the owner really wants to do it.
Given the OP's two choices I'd take the 44 Special every time, place my shots through the largest viable kill zone (the heart/lung area), and cleanly take deer for as long as you're able to enjoy hunting and the shooting sports.

[smkummer]

I agree that your shooting requirements would be satisfied with a 6" .357. I fire a lot of 38 wad cutters ( 148 grains and 3 grains bullseye) for cowboy action and practice. I am confident that I can fire a 38 wad cutter in my small and medium frame Colts until I am on my death bed. The best part of .357 and 44 magnum is its "special" side ( 38 special/44 special).

[Lloyd Smale]

yup. Ive killed animals as large as a 800lb cow buffalo with a 44 spec and wouldn't even waste 2 minutes pondering taking a 327 out deer hunting.
Were it I, I'd go for the 44 special and never look back. I have three Ruger 327's, 2 single 7's and a 4,2 inch sp101, but they are deer guns only in the mind.

Mine are extremely accurate, enough so that in a perfect scenario you might make that spine shot, but then you might not. The spine of a deer is only about 2 inches thick. A boolit that misses low will result in a wounded animal heading for the high country, to live or die as dependent upon their immune system and what got hit on the pass through. A 125 grain boolit at 1200 or so FPS has little power to spare.

A 44 launching a 44-250 at 1000 fps has a bit more umph to work with. A caster can find many boolits to fit a 44. I have moulds ranging from 110 to 280 grains. I could conjure up something for everything from Squirrels to Black bear for my 44's. I would be hard pressed to come up with a .327 load that I would trust to do the job on a decent size deer.

I have 7 44's, 4 Maggies and 3 Specials. I would take any of them before going afield with a 327 looking for deer.

[dverna]

I'd consider any cartridge that I felt needed to be placed in the spinal column of a deer's neck to be effective as inadequate, even unethical.
Handguns are obviously handicaps to the average shooter when compared to rifles, and I'm no fan of neck-shots with rifles either. I've seen too many failures that "barely" missed the spine and caused unnecessary suffering (sometimes EXTREME suffering), to ever recommend neck shots as a good practice.
Compound that with the fact that sub-2 MOA revolvers are more the exception than the rule, and VERY few shooters can consistently hold that well from common field positions, and the arguements against borderline cartridges gets more difficult to overcome.

The 44 Spcl is fully capable of cleanly harvesting most medium game well beyond the 50 yard mark, and practically any hunting revolver can be scoped if the owner really wants to do it.
Given the OP's two choices I'd take the 44 Special every time, place my shots through the largest viable kill zone (the heart/lung area), and cleanly take deer for as long as you're able to enjoy hunting and the shooting sports.

What a great reply. Most "hunters" cannot hit a 2" target with a rifle...never mind a pistol.

I am firmly in the camp of take enough gun....a humane kill is the goal. I cannot shoot a powerful pistol well enough to get the job done so I use a rifle. You may be at that point in your life as well. If you are set on a pistol caliber, look at the pistol caliber lever actions. Even with the short 16" barrels you will get more velocity (energy) than a pistol and they are easy to carry plus recoil will be acceptable. .44 Mag or .45 LC would make a nice set up for deer at 100-125 yards. I have three .357 lever actions but have never shot a deer with them. Many say they would be adequate but I prefer more certainty.

BTW, a lot of deer have been killed with a .22 but that does not make it a deer caliber.

As I get older, I cannot take the pounding, my eyesight sucks, and quite frankly, I am not as good a shot as I was years ago. So YMMV.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm in rintinglen's camp, I would select the 44 Special and not look back. Use a soft bullet, flat nose or HP, 900-1000 fps. DONE.

The 327 Federal looks impressive on paper but I don't think it's a deer cartridge. Deer aren't bullet proof, poachers take deer with .22's all of the time but that's hardly ethical. I just don't think the 327 has enough mass to guarantee ethical kills.

The 357 mag does have the mass and speed needed.

If we remove deer hunting and self-defense from the list, a 32 caliber will work nicely.

The 32 S&W long can be an outstanding cartridge for small game and target shooting. The right load in the right gun can be very accurate. The 32 H&R mag extends the small game capabilities of the 32 S&W long. I never quite warmed up to the 327 federal; not sure what it really accomplishes other than making impressive numbers on paper.

I think the OP has created a list of applications that is too broad for one handgun. A single gun that is well suited to deer hunting, self-defense, squirrel hunting and target work is going to be defined by the cartridge that can fill all of those needs. In other words, the lowest common denominator.

[rking22]

A single gun that is well suited to deer hunting, self-defense, squirrel hunting and target work is going to be defined by the cartridge that can fill all of those needs. "
A SW 696 comes closest in my mind, but I need the squirrels kind close. 44 special can do it all, but getting the right revolver could be a challenge. I have a 327 and like it as a cast shooter, but its not an all rounder like the 44 , or 357 and 41 for that matter. Probably a good reason the 44special ( and 357) are still with us!

[rking22]

I agree 100% math and numbers don't kill deer! Need enough projectile mass and enough power to go all the way thru. At that point its all about WHAT it goes thru. Got to be a critical organ, at that point the deer is "dead" question is how long does it take him to figure that out and fall down. That varies and is not real dependant on any calculation, too many variables.
A 327 will definately kill a deer, but leaves little margin. If that 120 grain bullet hits the ball joint in the shoulder a perfect shot may yield a v e r y l o n g trail.

[Kosh75287]

Depends on WHICH .44 Special revolver the OP has in mind, but s long as it's not a Charter Arms Bulldog, I'D want the .44 Special. I think it is far more deer & defense capable than the .327 Federal, which is basically a .30 U.S. Carbine in a revolver.

[OnHoPr]

I agree that your shooting requirements would be satisfied with a 6" .357.

It does kinda point in that direction doesn't it.

I use to shoot about 10,000 rounds a year of 357 back in the '70s. First, a buddy of mine and I use to belong to a range and bought their 148 gr wadcutters to shoot. Then we got set up for reloading. We tried a bunch of different powders and loads and came up with a Green Dot load that was around 1050 fps with 158 gr WCs that was accurate in the BH 357, S&W 19 n 66, Dan Wesson, and Python. Though, I used a 15.5 gr charge of 2400 behind Sierra 150 HC for hunting. First deer I ever shot at 19 yo was a cold calculated two hand (not excited) hold between two knees sitting against a pine tree at a doe broadside @ 20 ft with the scoped BH. Even though I had not acquired any tracking skills then I did a grid search for the 3/4 mile to the next section road in the Manistee NF, the section had sparse underbrush, no recovery. Well, that left a bad taste in a first deer 19 yo memory bank for deer hunting.

I do see deer killed with the 357 and it is accurate enough for squirrels and loaded down to WC levels pleasant to shoot. I suppose a neck shot could be done with it as well. Many 6" barrels versions are available. Full house loads do have a sharp recoil, though. The SBH with its grip makes 44 special loads comfortable to shoot, but I have killed deer with one and I am at the time now where hunting with one specifically would probably not happen. I would just use the pistola in a if a deer creeped up on my left side close range or if I had to set the long gun against the tree to do some slow serious tracking and still having something go boom on my person.

When it comes to SD I do not think I will ever get a CWP (or whatever they're called now). I still forget to take my phone when I should be taking it in case of emergency. With the SD, if you are going to carry then you should most likely carry every day. So, in that sense it would just be more of a home SD weapon. I would probably still keep it in a case.

The 327 fed with 32 long or loaded down 32 H&R would be just ducky for squirrels and target. While the 327 fed full house load could go boom in the SD and deer venues. Can't the 327 fed match the 30 carbine and come close to a mid range load with the 30 Herrit? The 44 special loaded to 700 or 800 fps should be comfortable to shoot for plinking and I here they can be accurate. If loaded with the slowest powders close to 1000 fps can be done with a 240 gr and still stay in the 15,500 Cups or Psis which would meet close range deer and SD needs, or one would summarize. I use the Lee 240 RN in my muzzle loader and it is my go to boolit, though I push it about 1800 or 1900 fps, but its good to 200 yds.

I have not shot in a while, but I use to put 4 out of 5 in a cigarette pack @ 100 yds with the SBH. I harvested many squirrels at the top of oak trees with the single six and shoot bottle caps at 25 yds. I do not know how well I can shoot now, so if I can't anymore then it will just stay in the case and maybe punch paper once in a while at the range. The DNR range with help from the NRA put in a 10 yd pistol range. If I have to shoot at the 10 yd range to keep the boolits on target like 90% of the people that go shooting there, the gun will stay in the case at home. The first time I hit 100 on the golf course was the last time I went golfing.


I think the OP has created a list of applications that is too broad for one handgun. A single gun that is well suited to deer hunting, self-defense, squirrel hunting and target work is going to be defined by the cartridge that can fill all of those needs. In other words, the lowest common denominator.

Just teetering on the weight beam
Yea, that sounds like an idear, I should go to a range that has pistolas to try out just to see if I can shoot anymore. Hate to buy a gun and let it start a dust collection. I just might be getting to the health and age where a shotgun with birdshot and buckshot will be my only shooting tools.

[saleen322]

The fore mentioned load with the 44 Special of a 250 grain bullet @ 1000 FPS has a sectional density of .194 and muzzle energy of 555 fts/lbs. One of the most accurate 327 loads from my Blackhawk is a 120 cast SWC gas check @ 1519 developing 615 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and has a sectional density of .176. I don't really think there is much practical difference as a hunting load so I would go with the one you like. YMMV

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

r ...

[OnHoPr]

I noticed that neither cal has a double action with a 6” barrel. They are all kinda short for my taste with 3. or 4. something inches.


I agree that your shooting requirements would be satisfied with a 6" .357

There is one of the other weights going from pan to pan on the weight beam. I looked a bit and did not find any pistolas in the 327 or 44 special with 6" barrels. They were all 4.3" or shorter. Is there any pistolas out there that are escaping my inquiries. Even going back to '50s vintage. Something like the M24 maybe. A High Standard or different brand other than S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc maybe a Dan Wesson? The only barrel I have seen longer than the up to the 5.5" or longer is the Single Seven. Now, I am not going to be putting down $1500 on a M24 or $2750 on a Python. I did look at the Charter Arms as I have always thought of having one since I started shooting pistolas. Charter Arms has a 4. something inch Target Model which only weighs like 22 oz and Elmer seemed to think they were accurate, I suppose if you got a good one. An old Security Six comes to mind once in a while, almost bought one in the '70s.

I have been use to using the Ruger SAs for most all of my life, but I have shot the previously mentioned 357s a bit. Not saying that I (WAS) as good as Evil Roy on the SASS and Cowboy Western shooting, but I could shoot the single action pass 15, 20, 25 yds accurately better than most could do with the double action. Though, I am not opposed of the double action. I would just never use it unless SD or some old man form of competition arose for fun.

More criteria; back when I was 16 I got hit by a car, ooouuch. Well, when I acquired my pistolas I found out that I couldn't carry a western style belt/holster on my right hip. This is when I was 18 yo. I have always carried cross draw with just the western holster on a regular belt. Then in my mid 30s I went to a shoulder holster. So, I might not even be able to carry on any waist position now since Mr. Bad Disc and Mr. Sciatica are knocking on the door the last few years. If I go cross draw the gun will have to be light weight. Other than that the shoulder system will have to be used.

Another question; is there any pistolas out there like the old Colt 1911 in 30 carbine that would fit the accuracy criteria? Or if something like that could be accurized in a target format, besides a Desert Eagle 357.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

P ...

[saleen322]

Saleen,

How loud is that load you have listed for your 327?

How much does it slow down by 50 yards?

How much penetration does it get? In what?

While we have heard of people using a 223 with half the bullet weight and twice the speed you mentioned ...

It is as loud as a gunshot :)

Penetration, in 357 terms using the same hardness of bullet, a 120 from a 327 will penetrate better than a 357 125 gn, not as well as a 170, about the same as a 158 if at same speed. However the 327 is faster.

I set the chrono at around 12 feet so the math says it should be 1390 give or take at 50 yards

I have no idea what you are talking about related to the 223

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

......

[rking22]

Sectional density , higher it is better the penetration, other factors being comparable. As I've stated, I like the 327 and feel it can kill a deer. That said comparing a heavy for caliber 327 to a lightweight 357 is cooking the books. 100. In 327 vs 158 in 357 if you like numbers. I don't, initial dia and mass is more important in hunting than "energy" numbers. Thats my experience, others may have a different opinion.

[Green Frog]

:coffeecom OK, this discussion has gone on for 2 pages... it's like a fisherman saying "Fly rod or deep sea rig?" You don't use the same fishing rod for all forms of fishing. Or maybe a driver saying "Sports car or minivan?" Different tasks require different vehicles. Maybe you could find one "do it all" revolver, but it most certainly won't do all things as well as some more specialized revolvers would. If I were limited to one revolver for everything, it would probably be a 4 or 6" S&W Model 686 (unless I could find a 5" :wink: ) in 357 Mag so I could shoot the full range of 38s and 357s... but I still wouldn't be as well equipped as having a K-22, a K-32, a 357 L-frame, and a 44 or 45 N-frame. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! 8-)

Froggie

[saleen322]

Penetration, in 357 terms using the same hardness of bullet, a 120 from a 327 will penetrate better than a 357 125 gn, not as well as a 170, about the same as a 158 if at same speed. However the 327 is faster.

Sectional density was mentioned and that is key to predicting penetration. Sectional density is developed from the ratio between the mass and diameter of the projectile and it actually came from estimating artillery penetration. This is over simplified but look at it like this: take a 1/4 inch steel washer and a steel nail that weighs the same and equal in hardness. Put the nail on a board point first and strike it once with a hammer then lay the washer flat on the same board and hit it with the same hammer, using the same force. The nail will penetrate deeper because it has the greater sectional density. You could then increase the mass of the washer by swapping it for a 1/2 inch washer but the sectional density ratio still favors the nail even though now the washer is heavier than the nail but the washer will still not match the penetration of the nail.

The reason why I said the about the penetration of the 327 mag because of its sectional density number for the 120 grain bullet which is .176. The 357 magnum numbers are: 125-.140, 158-.177, and the 170-.191. The 327 mag with the 120 grain bullet at .176 SD closely matches the 357 mag 158 grain bullet at .177 SD so you could reasonably expect the same penetration on the same medium at the same velocity. Hope this makes sense.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I feel I must put an end to all this prattle. Did you ever shoot a hot loaded 32-20? Your ears will not like it and you don't want to some day have to wear a hearing device. I don't and I hear very well and I have been shooting all my life and I just turned 83, besides there in no center fire cartridge that compares to the 44 SPL so dump the idea of just another hot 32. Any questions?

[lefty o]

There is one of the other weights going from pan to pan on the weight beam. I looked a bit and did not find any pistolas in the 327 or 44 special with 6" barrels. They were all 4.3" or shorter. Is there any pistolas out there that are escaping my inquiries. Even going back to '50s vintage. Something like the M24 maybe. A High Standard or different brand other than S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc maybe a Dan Wesson? The only barrel I have seen longer than the up to the 5.5" or longer is the Single Seven. Now, I am not going to be putting down $1500 on a M24 or $2750 on a Python. I did look at the Charter Arms as I have always thought of having one since I started shooting pistolas. Charter Arms has a 4. something inch Target Model which only weighs like 22 oz and Elmer seemed to think they were accurate, I suppose if you got a good one. An old Security Six comes to mind once in a while, almost bought one in the '70s.

I have been use to using the Ruger SAs for most all of my life, but I have shot the previously mentioned 357s a bit. Not saying that I (WAS) as good as Evil Roy on the SASS and Cowboy Western shooting, but I could shoot the single action pass 15, 20, 25 yds accurately better than most could do with the double action. Though, I am not opposed of the double action. I would just never use it unless SD or some old man form of competition arose for fun.

More criteria; back when I was 16 I got hit by a car, ooouuch. Well, when I acquired my pistolas I found out that I couldn't carry a western style belt/holster on my right hip. This is when I was 18 yo. I have always carried cross draw with just the western holster on a regular belt. Then in my mid 30s I went to a shoulder holster. So, I might not even be able to carry on any waist position now since Mr. Bad Disc and Mr. Sciatica are knocking on the door the last few years. If I go cross draw the gun will have to be light weight. Other than that the shoulder system will have to be used.

Another question; is there any pistolas out there like the old Colt 1911 in 30 carbine that would fit the accuracy criteria? Or if something like that could be accurized in a target format, besides a Desert Eagle 357.

i believe amt made a 30carbine 1911, i could be wrong. used properly a 327fed will kill a deer with zero issues.