Pressure signs and what they mean

[6bg6ga]

Recently reloaded some 40 cal in 180gr SWC with 5.2 gr or WW231 which is well in the safe zone. OAL case length was to fit the chamber of the Glock 35 I was loading for. The plunk test showed I was spot on length wise. Shooting them revealed these was pressure excess pressure in my opinion based on what father taught me 55+ years ago. A flattened primer means its hot but when the primer starts coming back on the firing pin look out. That my first experience with the excess pressure of this type.

People were shooting 9mm's and I examined their factory loaded brass and found the same thing. So what gives? Was Papa wrong? Everything I have been taught was an error?

[6bg6ga]

204626

204627

204628

[kingrj]

Sometimes an oversized firing pin hole in the slide can cause primers to give this appearance and in combination with firing pin drag from a too weak firing pin spring can also do this..With out pressure testing equipment the next best thing is a chronograph. If the load chronographs at or less than what the loading manual suggests for this load you are likely ok. If pressures are too high then the velocity will be much higher than listed. I know this is going to sound kinda stupid but I am going to ask anyway...so do factory loaded rounds make the primers look the same way? If so you probably don't have a problem..

[17nut]

Glocks has that odd square firing pin hole wich ends up as a raised spot on the primer.
They all do it and it has little to do with high pressures, well yes it has to do with high pressure but not excessive pressure.
It's a quirk in the guns of the camping gods maker, that and the water pistol trigger!

[35remington]

Daddy nor yourself knew anything about Glocks or pistol primer behavior. Now you do. And yeah, "interpreting" what you see on primers requires context. Otherwise it is bad information subject to misunderstanding.

As here.

[tazman]

Coming to pistol reloading from rifle reloading, I had the same thoughts for a time until I found out that handguns are a different beast. Even with higher pressured handgun cartridges(9mm, 357, etc) the pressure signs aren't as obvious or even the same as in a rifle. A lot has to do with the differences in the components. Pistol primers are usually much softer than rifle primers and vary more lot to lot. Same for the brass.
Where a rifle firing pin must be fitted closely to avoid the appearance of cratering, often handguns are are fitted loose for reliable ignition and function.
You just have to get used to what your particular pistol does and, as was mentioned before, use a chronograph to verify your results.
If you have access to pressure testing equipment, go for it.

[OS OK]

If you 'tinker' in the upper 'nether regions'...get a Chrony and use it. Primer flatness around the edges varies in pistols and revolvers and it varies from one brand to the next...oversized firing pin holes will do this. When you start to get mirror images of the breech face on the base, that's another indication of high pressure. What does your group size tell you when you shoot off a bag? Do you have the unexplained fliers? With too much pressure everything will start to go sideways...why go there?

Without pressure testing equipment only the Chrony and 'good sense' will keep you out of trouble.

Yo Daddy was spot on!

[Eldon]

Over and over we keep beating this subject ! KISS applies !

If your load exceed the published velocity of a reputable current reloading manual (you need a chronograph !) using EXACTLY the same componets you are, you are on your own.

Don't bore me with "loose bores", "altitude", "phase of moon" etc.. KISS applies and a chronograph is the answer !

[OS OK]

with the amount of chamber variation in handguns, its been told to me that until case heads separate, primers come out of the pocket, or the cylinder wall splits, you have no actual way of figuring out the chamber pressure.

Very true...but, like knowing the seasons without a calendar we have to know the pressure signs, indications that excessive pressure is there or is going to be there if we keep boosting the charge without the pressure testing equipment. You don't need a rocket scientist, just good common sense.

These are from a batch of new plinkers I worked up this past week for the 9. Lee TL-356-124-TC, they're 126 grains PC'd like this and with the soft 11BHN Pb...Loaded with 3.8 grains of Bullseye they have the lowest ES & SD of all the loads tested (3.5 ~ 3.9 grains in .1'th grain incremental batches), @ 1,048 FPS they are not as fast as they could be but they aren't slouchers either, they group the tightest also with no fliers...tested in batches of 10.


204634

This is what the typical primers look like coming from this same batch of plinkers. The one on the left was shot from the Browning High Power and the right one came out of a Beretta 92F...one might say that the primer on the right is starting to show signs of overpressure because of the oversized firing pin hole and the raised area around the dimple. The only way I can be sure that it is not is by relying on my Chronograph...it's all I have and I'd like to think it has saved my bacon more than once especially back in the day when I thought that speed was everything...."taint so!"

204635

[gnostic]

They don't look too hot. Notice, the radius on the primers still there...

[6bg6ga]

Wouldn't the longer barrel keep the pressure longer thus more speed.

[OS OK]

I have never understood how people feel velocity can be used to determine chamber pressure. seriously, look at the load data in your favorite manual. you can see the max charges, and the max chamber pressure and see that the same velocity can be got from multiple powders with different pressures.

Add in how some barrels throw bullets faster then others, and barrel lengths as well. Its not hard to beat the velocity on the box with its 4 inch test barrel data if your using a 6 inch 357. and it miraculously doesn't change the pressure.....

Im not being an *******, just assertive. If a person loads 3 grains of BE under a 148 grain wadcutter, and only manages to get 650 fps from a 2 inch j frame, but can get 700 from his 4 inch k frame,, has the chamber pressure increased somehow to cause the higher velocity?

That's not what we are talking about. We are not measuring, we are talking about 'signs, indications' of overpressure using the limited equipment some of us have available.

[tazman]

I have never understood how people feel velocity can be used to determine chamber pressure. seriously, look at the load data in your favorite manual. you can see the max charges, and the max chamber pressure and see that the same velocity can be got from multiple powders with different pressures.

Add in how some barrels throw bullets faster then others, and barrel lengths as well. Its not hard to beat the velocity on the box with its 4 inch test barrel data if your using a 6 inch 357. and it miraculously doesn't change the pressure.....

Im not being an *******, just assertive. If a person loads 3 grains of BE under a 148 grain wadcutter, and only manages to get 650 fps from a 2 inch j frame, but can get 700 from his 4 inch k frame,, has the chamber pressure increased somehow to cause the higher velocity?

You test factory loads and standard book loads in your handgun over a chronograph and use that data as a reference. Then you start working up your new loads. If you are exceeding those velocities and not using a slower powder, you are probably running a higher pressure.
This way you aren't comparing different barrel lengths or different guns. It still won't tell you what pressures you are running, but serves as an indicator of where you are.
If you have a certain velocity you want to achieve, this method can help get you there safely. If you are simply trying for absolute max velocity, you are on your own without pressure testing equipment.

[OS OK]

Wouldn't the longer barrel keep the pressure longer thus more speed.

That's an interesting discussion to listen to. Longer barrel, more burn time and more gas is created if the appropriate powder is used but the other side of the coin is this...all the time the projectile is accelerating it's creating more volume behind it for the gas to fill and the gas has to keep building pressure to keep accelerating the projectile and doing it in such a short time that it just boggles my mind to contemplate.

[OS OK]

Your up early this morning Taz...

[Eldon]

The INCORRECT info goes ON AND ON. Primers DMS ! Does anyone here READ ? Buy Handloader ? Still believe the earth is flat ? The chrongraph is the best tool (absent a pressure bbl) available. Find me ONE ballistics expert that says primers are the BEST way to measure pressure. (Not your uncle Caleb who believes CNN).

This so SIMPLE, it's amazing people whose ballistic knowledge ended in 1970 think they have the answers.

[OS OK]

Why don't you two boys take over here and bring us all up to speed regarding 'pressure signs'...


The INCORRECT info goes ON AND ON. Primers DMS ! Does anyone here READ ? Buy Handloader ? Still believe the earth is flat ? The chrongraph is the best tool (absent a pressure bbl) available. Find me ONE ballistics expert that says primers are the BEST way to measure pressure. (Not your uncle Caleb who believes CNN).

This so SIMPLE, it's amazing people whose ballistic knowledge ended in 1970 think they have the answers.

^ You give it a shot and see if you can write an intelligent paragraph without insulting anyone...



Perhaps if we were using balloon head brass to load say 357 magnum or 44 magnum or 454 casull, then I could agree that visual signs could be used as a way to say if you were loading those cartridges to "hot and heavy".

But when you consider that brass has lot variations, brand variations, country variations.

Consider that the primer is not a very useful thing visually because if you fire a cartridge and the primer looks like it was flowing around the firing pin in a bad way, you have to consider the following:
1. is it really to much pressure?
2. too soft of primer
3. is firing pin to small for firing pin channel?
4. is firing pin channel face worn out or damaged?

If you wanted to get picky about it, any piece of brass that goes through an unsupported barrel in a semi auto and comes out with that bulge, can be considered as having signs of extremely high chamber pressure.

^ and you...try to keep it on point, we ain't loading baloon head brass with modern powder and expecting it to hold. In fact BH brass hasn't been mentioned at all.
Go ahead and jump in with your friend there and straighten us out...only stick to the topic...'pressure signs', put it in context with 'working up a load', that should make an interesting read.

That oughta keep it on point...

[kingrj]

Damn this is getting interesting!! It seems that everybody is pretty much in agreement but the fights have started! LOL!

[JBinMN]

"Just the facts ma'am, just the facts."
http://uploads.neatorama.com/images/posts/942/71/71942/1399831324-0.jpg

:kidding:

A little levity... I thought it funny anyway.

;)

[OS OK]

Me too . . . :bigsmyl2:

Your telling your age!

[tazman]

Your up early this morning Taz...

Had to make a middle of the night bathroom run and couldn't get back to sleep. This seemed like the best place to visit.
Don't ask for pictures. You really don't want to see me in my bathrobe.

[6bg6ga]

Thank you boys for straightening me out. Yes, I'm lost totally lost because I followed what has been handed down for decades for those of us that don't own a chronograph. Please do forgive me for me for my stupidity. I'll run right out and purchase a $1000.00 chronograph so I can see the speed that will tell my roughly what the primer does that is unless you happen to own a Glock and then all bets are off. Also please do forgive me for owning a Glock or for that matter posting this thread.

[tazman]

Thank you boys for straightening me out. Yes, I'm lost totally lost because I followed what has been handed down for decades for those of us that don't own a chronograph. Please do forgive me for me for my stupidity. I'll run right out and purchase a $1000.00 chronograph so I can see the speed that will tell my roughly what the primer does that is unless you happen to own a Glock and then all bets are off. Also please do forgive me for owning a Glock or for that matter posting this thread.

Where is your purple font?

[Eldon]

1. Chronographs don't cost $1000. (dare I say manifest ignorance ?)
2. Reading primers and tea leaves have the same credibility.
3. Nothing unique about a Glock. Too hot a load is ----- (drum roll) too hot a load.

I have the facts backed up by real experts in Handloader. You have old wives' tales. Thasss all folks !

[6bg6ga]

1. Chronographs don't cost $1000. (dare I say manifest ignorance ?)
2. Reading primers and tea leaves have the same credibility.
3. Nothing unique about a Glock. Too hot a load is ----- (drum roll) too hot a load.

I have the facts backed up by real experts in Handloader. You have old wives' tales. Thasss all folks !

Son, I realize cheap chronographs don't cost $1K but then again I buy decent equipment.

Reading primers has always been a source of useful information but maybe not for your age group.

The know it all's here on the forum have explained the Glock's ability to deform a primer please go back and re-read some posts.

Handloader LOL I'll believe Elmer Keith any day as opposed to some geek with little or no experience claiming to be an expert.

Nothing unique about a Glock.....well son the same loads I ran thru a Glock showed no primer problems/ or what us old people would call excessive pressure when run thru another 40 cal of another brand. It doesn't hurt to be cautious.

Lastly, experience and common sense dictate that one move forwared cautiously. Being old and believing in the "Old wives tales " has so far kept me from blowing my darned head off. So, I would rather be wrong and be cautious than be a fool.

[6bg6ga]

Where is your purple font?

It doesn't work

[OS OK]

Looks like we got ourselves a 'New Fish' here boys...Eldon, take a bow!

Your gonna be mighty entertaining to follow around the forum.

[OS OK]

Where is your purple font?

Purple is for them limp wristed SanFransciscanites over on the coast...


It doesn't work

Real Men do it in pink! Goes well with that old salty and wrinkled up and 'tanned like a hide' skin.

[JSnover]

I don't feel the need to max out my hand loads but I have shot some that were "a little warm" yet by some miracle I was able to figure this out without a chronograph. Had something to do with increased muzzle blast, more recoil, couple of split cases, kinda flat primers, stuff like that. None of these indications taken separately meant much of anything (the brass had been loaded quite a few times) but all of them together were enough to make me back off a little and double-check a few things. I got all the horsepower I needed without blowing up any guns.
If I owned a chronograph I'd STILL pay attention to the sound and feel of each new load and inspect my brass, watch for sticky extraction/heavy bolt lift, etc. That neat little gadget can tell you a lot but it can't warn you about excess headspace or an oversized firing pin hole, oily chamber… All of these will cause "pressure signs" in a perfectly safe load.
Start with good data, pay attention for anything unusual.
I'm not knocking the 'graph, just saying you can get by without it for most purposes.

[tazman]

I don't feel the need to max out my hand loads but I have shot some that were "a little warm" yet by some miracle I was able to figure this out without a chronograph. Had something to do with increased muzzle blast, more recoil, couple of split cases, kinda flat primers, stuff like that. None of these indications taken separately meant much of anything (the brass had been loaded quite a few times) but all of them together were enough to make me back off a little and double-check a few things. I got all the horsepower I needed without blowing up any guns.
If I owned a chronograph I'd STILL pay attention to the sound and feel of each new load and inspect my brass, watch for sticky extraction/heavy bolt lift, etc. That neat little gadget can tell you a lot but it can't warn you about excess headspace or an oversized firing pin hole, oily chamber… All of these will cause "pressure signs" in a perfectly safe load.
Start with good data, pay attention for anything unusual.
I'm not knocking the 'graph, just saying you can get by without it for most purposes.

The stuff you are talking about is valid and comes with years of experience. The main reason I usually recommend a chronograph is a lot of people are trying to get absolute max velocity out of their loads.
There are a lot of things that go into reaching a max load for a particular handgun, many of which you mentioned. I started out reloading a long time ago when I couldn't afford a chronograph and could barely afford to reload. I learned many of the same tricks and experiences you did.
I feel that even a cheap chronograph makes a good reference tool for working up a load, even if you have no desire to max out the cartridge. That is why I recommend them. They are more affordable now than ever as long as you aren't looking at the absolute top tier chronograph.

[35remington]

The value of a chronograph is that the gun firing the cartridge discussed here is an autoloader and has a functional range......too slow and it won't autoload. Too fast, above the standard speed, and guppy belly brass often starts showing up, usually before the primer gives definitive signs of stress that only show up when things get way too far out of hand.

The idea is to know well before you get to levels that cause problems, not to recognize them belatedly when you're already there.

Start low. Check for positive functioning and verify velocity is no more than the standard range expected. Don't exceed recommended maximums. Quite frankly it's best to stay away from maximums and duplicate standard to even substandard speeds as long as they function the pistol positively.

An example of recent use is my 40 Shield, which is a bit snappy with 165 to 180 grain factory loads. I wanted positive function with less velocity for my extended practice sessions so trotted out the chronograph and learned I could easily trim 100 fps plus off what the factory loads give using my handloads with 175 grain bullets and still cycle the gun reliably. I suppose you could do the same thing without having the chrono just seeing if the gun cycled using a reduced charge, but a benchmark was set that is now targeted when a new powder is tried, so there is less guesswork.

To re familiarize and get up to serious business, at least part of the practice sessions use factory duplication ammo which is where the chrono comes in handy again because I want to know I am duplicating standard velocity rather than guess. The full standard velocity stuff emphasizes a firm grip to reduce the vertical stringing I get if I go too loose in my hold. Brain fade is the enemy of shooting small snappy autoloaders accurately. It ain't a bullseye 22 gun.

[jeepguy242]

Still believe the earth is flat ?


the flat earth society has members all over the globe!

[6bg6ga]

I have been schooled in the differences in pressure signs between normal semi-automatics and Glocks now. I don't need a chronograph to tell me how to load I simply won't use a Glock as a reference for my pressure tests. You guys that want to believe everything some young un-experienced editor writes in a worthless rag can go ahead and do so at your own risk. The depth of the firing pins marking on the primer varies with make and model and varies with each gun or can.

Don't care to have a chronograph because I have a number of OLD loading manuals which will keep me going until I can no longer walk and or shoot. I don't need a chronograph to tell me longer barrels= more velocity either.

[6bg6ga]

I also don't need a chronograph to tell me if a load is too light to have my semi-automatic function correctly ejecting or loading a round. Simple common sense will tell you hey it didn't eject the round ...I need to increase the load or it didn't load the round I need to increase the load. I just don't need some of this new fangled technology when common sense can serve me well. I don't need to be tied down to a phone either. Some cannot function without their phone at their side. Heck I have seen guns and a cell phone on a bench at the gun range.

[kingrj]

I have been schooled in the differences in pressure signs between normal semi-automatics and Glocks now. I don't need a chronograph to tell me how to load I simply won't use a Glock as a reference for my pressure tests. You guys that want to believe everything some young un-experienced editor writes in a worthless rag can go ahead and do so at your own risk. The depth of the firing pins marking on the primer varies with make and model and varies with each gun or can.

Don't care to have a chronograph because I have a number of OLD loading manuals which will keep me going until I can no longer walk and or shoot. I don't need a chronograph to tell me longer barrels= more velocity either.

6bg your original question in this thread was perfectly ligit and a GOOD question...Not sure how this all became a "measuring contest" for others but I appreciate your asking straight forward questions concerning reloading safety...Keep it up..We will all learn along the way. I learned about the square Glock firing pin hole from this post too!

[Plate plinker]

Chronographs are cheap fingers are not. Go buy a chronograph. Not sure where he was writing about this but Larry Gibson posted some information recently about this subject. Specifically he was writing about what little value flat primers and bulges etc.... had in his experience with pressure testing.

[JSnover]

If you want a chronograph you can buy a chronograph. If you NEED one, by all means go get it. One of these days I will but right now it isn't something I have to have.
I test for accuracy and function and I'm aware that calculated velocities are not the same as actual but until my circumstances change I'll get along.

[OS OK]

empirical evidence. FASTER , PRESSURE , VOLUME , LARGER , HIGHER PRESSURE , VOLUME , velocity.

If bullet velocity was actual proof of chamber pressure, then please explain how barrel length is so important with velocity results.

This is the ticket...at the end of the day all you have is a bunch of empty cases. They have the primer signs but other signs may be present too. Could be some have smoke on the outside of the cases or split necks, lotz of sign there all the way through to case head separation.
All the signs were indications of pressure, or...the lack of pressure. Some sign may only indicate that your brass needs annealing and has gotten work hardened...etc.
The thing about sign is that you need to let it tell you the story and you need to try to interpret what it's saying...it ain't as simple as you might think because some sign is telling you that your platform needs looking after and there's nothing it's saying about your load other than the load is within parameters...
Sign, sound, recoil, proper action in a semi auto, Pb deposits in the barrel, spray coming out of a revolver...on and on and as you grow older you become even more aware of the signs...they ain't just old wives tales or something some old fart made up in his OCD head...it's sort of a 'Non Professional Country Boy Forensics' that a brass stuffer develops. It might not pass with the academic boys in their white coats but everyone ends up with the same conclusions at the end of the day.

I posted an article some time ago that one of the academics wrote about empirical evidence...I find it interesting, it's about a rifle cartridge and what is going on from ignition to exit of the barrel...you might enjoy the empirical evidence there...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion

[35remington]

The point I was trying to make was that if velocity is within the range expected for the loading or below per established loading data given any reasonably standard barrel length, you can discount primer appearance as being the only relevant factor to be judged as there is additional information that helps to resolve the question. Simple, no?

If additional info (velocity) helps to clarify the safety of the load (and it certainly does help greatly) then it cannot be dismissed as needless information. Differences in barrel length can also be allowed for. If your short barrel gun is outrunning the longer barrel used to develop the load data it is prudent to figure you may be somewhere other than desirable in terms of your loading.

I doubt anyone intends to use blackpowder in their Glocks. If they did, velocities and pressures would be lower than standard velocities due to the small volume of autoloader cases developed and intended for smokeless powder. I have tried it in the 45 ACP just for laughs.

[OS OK]

You know, something interesting I've noticed with a new Chronograph recently purchased...it figures the Average velocity, ES extreme spread, SD standard deviation and it list the velocities by shot shot string number and shot number. Seems like a lot of numbers flying around but when you put them on paper they start to tell a story too...I think.?. I just started this and time will tell.

As stated earlier, I like to shoot for group size and velocity all in the same whack, also just started running 10 rounds in a test string instead of 5 to get a broader sampling.
When I plotted the Avg. velocity, ES and SD on paper in graph form and comparred that to the actual target group size, I found that the lowest ES & SD has shown up along with the tightest groups. And so far they haven't shown up with the highest velocity..."with pistols''. Rifles and barrel harmonics are a different game all together.

[kingrj]

For those who's interest in a chronograph has been "spiked" by this thread..If you are handy with a soldering iron I will be happy to send schematics to allow one to build a very accurate digital chronograph who's components can cost as little as $20...I designed and built my own that includes a direct reading digital readout in FPS and is fully programmable but that is just overkill in my part..I also use ambient light screens that I purchased separately but a simple piece of mechanical pencil lead for a start screen and a piece of cardboard wrapped with fine wire will work just fine for a stop screen for pennies..

[6bg6ga]

For those who's interest in a chronograph has been "spiked" by this thread..If you are handy with a soldering iron I will be happy to send schematics to allow one to build a very accurate digital chronograph who's components can cost as little as $20...I designed and built my own that includes a direct reading digital readout in FPS and is fully programmable but that is just overkill in my part..I also use ambient light screens that I purchased separately but a simple piece of mechanical pencil lead for a start screen and a piece of cardboard wrapped with fine wire will work just fine for a stop screen for pennies..

Can I make the circuit using vacuum tubes? just kidding. I'd love to see your schematic. I will need projects when I retire in the spring and this one sounds like a dandy.

[HATCH]

If you are serious about having commercial quality reloaded ammunition then you need to buy a chronograph.

I can't remember the model I have right now but I can hook it to my netbook and it will display the data in real time as I shoot.

If you don't know how fast your rounds are going then you really don't know anything.

Each lot of powder has variances.
If you grab a older manual the data may not be correct because most powders have changed slightly over the years.

My standard plan when developing a new load.
Look up the data.
Load ten rounds in 2/10ths of a grain difference from the min load to the max load.
Buy a box of factory ammo in the weight bullet your shooting.

Go shoot across the chrony.
Start with the factory first. It allows you to make sure everything is ok and working. And you have 50 rounds of factory to deal with.
Then shoot the rest. Start at the min and work your way up.
You can shoot all of them or you can stop the load past the factory speed. Your call.

Most newer chrony will calculate data for you.

Speed per round
Average per batch
Standard deviation per batch
Min speed per batch
Max speed per batch.

Standard deviation is the big thing to look at.
It's the average amount of change in speed per each shot.
The lower this number is the higher chances you have of making the round hit the same home every time.
You would be surprised when you start doing this.
I have tested factory 22 tcm rounds and had a SD of 76 fps.
My loaded ammo for the same velocity had a SD of just 13!!

[Love Life]

I use to chrony everything. Now, for handgun, I load until I get a really accurate load. I might chrony that one...maybe. If I have a specific velocity envelope I want to reach, then I'll break out the chrony for that too.

Rifle I chrony for the same reasons. For long range I need SPEED. The fun part is getting the accuracy with the FPS envelope I am shooting for.

[6bg6ga]

If you are serious about having commercial quality reloaded ammunition then you need to buy a chronograph.

I can't remember the model I have right now but I can hook it to my netbook and it will display the data in real time as I shoot.

If you don't know how fast your rounds are going then you really don't know anything.

Each lot of powder has variances.
If you grab a older manual the data may not be correct because most powders have changed slightly over the years.

My standard plan when developing a new load.
Look up the data.
Load ten rounds in 2/10ths of a grain difference from the min load to the max load.
Buy a box of factory ammo in the weight bullet your shooting.

Go shoot across the chrony.
Start with the factory first. It allows you to make sure everything is ok and working. And you have 50 rounds of factory to deal with.
Then shoot the rest. Start at the min and work your way up.
You can shoot all of them or you can stop the load past the factory speed. Your call.

Most newer chrony will calculate data for you.

Speed per round
Average per batch
Standard deviation per batch
Min speed per batch
Max speed per batch.

Standard deviation is the big thing to look at.
It's the average amount of change in speed per each shot.
The lower this number is the higher chances you have of making the round hit the same home every time.
You would be surprised when you start doing this.
I have tested factory 22 tcm rounds and had a SD of 76 fps.
My loaded ammo for the same velocity had a SD of just 13!!

I'll disagree with you. I don't need a chronograph anymore than I need to own my own cell phone. I can make a call without one the same as I can make good ammunition without a chronograph. If I actually wanted to know deviation in speed I might purchase one or possibly make one.

Now, this thread has gone from me asking a simple question to the absolute absurd notion that I must be incable of making good ammunition simply because I don't own a chronograph. If the question was asked about how I prep my cases, develop my loads, weigh my powder charges one might actually arrive at the conclusion that I might possibly know how to develop a load and actually load ammunition that will result in halfway decent groups. For example my cases are grouped according to manufacturer, case length, and size of primer hole and my charges are weighed individually thus resulting in smaller tighter grouping for me at least.

I praise technology when I want it and when I need it and in this case I don't need or want it. For me part of reloading is knowing or at least thinking that I might possibly know enough to load ammunition on my own so I will stick to my sick perverted notions that I can still do so that I still posess the knowledge to reload without blowing my damn fool head off or possibly blowing up a perfectly good gun.

Those that feel they need the technology possibly because they lack the experience or possibly because they have a home delivered subscription the "Handloader" or some other rag can keep their notions and ideas and I will keep to my old fashioned ideas that I can spot excessive pressure, when a charge is too heavy or too light and when a charge might possibly cause damage to either myself, my gun, and or others that might be close enough to be hit by flying metal.

Enough said

[tazman]

I can respect that you want to continue doing what has worked well for you. You are loading ammunition that serves your purposes well. That is enough.
If you have any questions that I might be able to help with(although I don't have any idea what that might be since I am not as widely experienced as others), please don't hesitate to ask.

[6bg6ga]

I can respect that you want to continue doing what has worked well for you. You are loading ammunition that serves your purposes well. That is enough.
If you have any questions that I might be able to help with(although I don't have any idea what that might be since I am not as widely experienced as others), please don't hesitate to ask.

Thank you for understanding that I seem to keep a hold of the basics. The basics as I will call them is how many of us older shooters learned to develop loads in the years prior to the dawn of the affordable chronograph. Some need to understand that the basics some of which were developed by the great Elmer Keith have actually served us well over the years. Granted, the so called pressure signs are not an absolute and for that matter nothing should be considered to be an absolute when it come to loading. Myself like a few older fellows here seem to favor the idea of safety over all else. Safety first gentlemen followed by the fun of shooting.

I develop a load possibly different than others here. I will get out the bible (Lymans reloading or another trusted source) and possible start at the bottom and maybe load 10 and put them in a plastic sandwich bag with the load clearly written on the bag. I will do these in groups of possibly .5 tenths of a grain intervals. Now, I don't need a chronograph at this point in time to tell me anything. I am judging at this point in time the ability of this load to group tightly. I will go thru all these loads and write down the group size and eventually end up with a good tight load.

Here is where some disagree with me....I now monitor the primer of the loads that are getting toward the higher end of the spectrum. Granted all guns aren't the same and the pressure signs I seem to want to follow will show me if there is a pressure difference between two different guns, or for that matter two guns of the same model.

Sure, the chronograph can tell me velocity and difference between the 10 rounds that I load but that isn't helping me right now. The primer signs that I rely on tell me what I need to know at this point in time. Is the load too hot? For many years Elmer Keith didn't have access to a chronograph yet he developed the majority of the loads the bible that we rely on yet today.

I guess if I didn't want to go to the depth I am going to I would rely 100% on a chronograph to tell me velocity and differences between my base. Gentlemen, I say to each his own but by all means please do keep safety first and please do not load over what is considered to be the maximum loads according to the reloading books.

[6bg6ga]

WHY is anyone or everyone here considering that factory ammunition is actually something that can be used as a baseline beyond wether or not that cartridge length or bullet profile feeds in your semi auto.

if a gun has no actual effect on velocity other then barrel length, why was it discovered that the ruger Blackhawk convertibles were able to give their semi auto cartridges ie 9mm and 45 acp about an extra 100 fps because of the extra bit of length in the cylinder?
did that increase the chamber pressure? NO , just the velocity

Good points. I live with the idea that nothing can be necessarily considered optimal for any handgun any semi-automatic. I for one rely 100% on reloading my own ammo. I haven't bought a box in probably 40+ years. Length for me is calculated by how it fits in the chamber and how it fits in a magazine for example. I use the posted length in the reloading books as a base to work from. I seem to favor the longest round that I can chamber and get to work reliably in a magazine. People are going to find out several things about barrel length but I'm not telling right now. As you have already found out chamber, and tightness of the bore contribute to velocity and no two animals are the same. I suggest that someone dredge up some of the older manuals that show barrel length and speed relations.

Ability to feed with a semi-automatic. My experience may differ from others here. My 1911's favor polishing the feed ramp as well as the type of magazine used. I have one 1911 that will feed anything with a Brownells magazine and take away that magazine and it will only feed round nose hard ball. With the magazine it will reliably feed 185gr SWC and 200gr SWC and even 165gr SWC.

[6bg6ga]

I will take kingri up on his offer if its still good. Its sounds like his home built chronograph may be far better than most of the store bought ones.

[kingrj]

I will take kingri up on his offer if its still good. Its sounds like his home built chronograph may be far better than most of the store bought ones.

Well you are in luck my friend because I just happen to have 4 circuit boards I had printed up left that make up the universal "front end" of my chrono design and I will fully assembly it with components I have left and ship it to you along with instructions on how to "finish" it in any number of configurations. Instead of the dual micro processors I have on mine you can add one with BlueTooth capability and program it to display on your smart phone or tablet if you want..Or you can skip the microprocessors and just wire up 16 simple little lights to display the elapsed time and use a pocket calculator to figure the velocity. It will work with "sky screens" or it will work with the pencil lead and wound wire screens as I mentioned earlier...PM me you address and give me a couple of weeks to finish up the board. It works on a 6 or 12 volt battery..

[6bg6ga]

Pm coming

[JBinMN]

Looks like a happy ending to me. LOL
;)

:drinks:

[35remington]

"WHY is anyone or everyone here considering that factory ammunition is actually something that can be used as a baseline beyond wether or not that cartridge length or bullet profile feeds in your semi auto."

Because the velocity it gets in the particular arm being used IS a baseline, whatever that velocity is. Nobody said that velocity should be identical for a three inch barrel versus a five inch barrel.

It is the baseline for that particular gun, and handloads can be developed in reference to it for that particular gun. There is a fundamental misunderstanding here that prompted this reply.

[osteodoc08]

A chronograph is handy, but please remember different powders have different pressure curves and velocity. Trying to get a specific velocity to match factory ammo is foolish unless the same powder is used.

Please let's keep this one on the rails or the thread will be closed.

[tazman]

Thank you for understanding that I seem to keep a hold of the basics. The basics as I will call them is how many of us older shooters learned to develop loads in the years prior to the dawn of the affordable chronograph. Some need to understand that the basics some of which were developed by the great Elmer Keith have actually served us well over the years. Granted, the so called pressure signs are not an absolute and for that matter nothing should be considered to be an absolute when it come to loading. Myself like a few older fellows here seem to favor the idea of safety over all else. Safety first gentlemen followed by the fun of shooting.

I develop a load possibly different than others here. I will get out the bible (Lymans reloading or another trusted source) and possible start at the bottom and maybe load 10 and put them in a plastic sandwich bag with the load clearly written on the bag. I will do these in groups of possibly .5 tenths of a grain intervals. Now, I don't need a chronograph at this point in time to tell me anything. I am judging at this point in time the ability of this load to group tightly. I will go thru all these loads and write down the group size and eventually end up with a good tight load.

Here is where some disagree with me....I now monitor the primer of the loads that are getting toward the higher end of the spectrum. Granted all guns aren't the same and the pressure signs I seem to want to follow will show me if there is a pressure difference between two different guns, or for that matter two guns of the same model.

Sure, the chronograph can tell me velocity and difference between the 10 rounds that I load but that isn't helping me right now. The primer signs that I rely on tell me what I need to know at this point in time. Is the load too hot? For many years Elmer Keith didn't have access to a chronograph yet he developed the majority of the loads the bible that we rely on yet today.

I guess if I didn't want to go to the depth I am going to I would rely 100% on a chronograph to tell me velocity and differences between my base. Gentlemen, I say to each his own but by all means please do keep safety first and please do not load over what is considered to be the maximum loads according to the reloading books.

In most of the ways you describe, my own load development mirrors your own. I search for accuracy and reliability before I look for velocity. I use the chrono at the end of development to get some idea where I ended up. I also start near the bottom of the load data recommended in my several loading manuals. The lower power loadings seem to be where the best accuracy come from in the majority of my guns.
With my rifles, I can use the velocity numbers to put into my bullet drop calculator and get approximate scope adjustments for longer distances. I like hitting the paper with the sighting shots. It makes fine scope adjustments much easier.
I will only fire handgun loads over a chrono when using a powder I have never used before as a comparison to what I have been doing.
I gave up the search for ultimate velocity long ago. In the things I do with firearms, it isn't necessary. I prefer a slower hit to a fast miss. I also like to keep shooting my current barrels for as long as possible. Re-barreling is expensive.
So far this has worked well for me.

[35remington]

Osteo, If the load data suggests powder that brackets the factory attained velocity and remains within pressure limits, then an entirely different powder than the factory used can be loaded to duplicate factory velocity as long as the load data maximums are not exceeded. And safely.

Baseline factory velocities can still be used with different powders per loading manual suggestions. I duplicate factory velocity with any number of powders and stay within load data guidelines. I will suggest more than a few are still confused by this as I have to interject yet again on this point.

[osteodoc08]

Osteo, If the load data suggests powder that brackets the factory attained velocity and remains within pressure limits, then an entirely different powder than the factory used can be loaded to duplicate factory velocity as long as the load data maximums are not exceeded. And safely.

Baseline factory velocities can still be used with different powders per loading manual suggestions. I duplicate factory velocity with any number of powders and stay within load data guidelines. I will suggest more than a few are still confused by this as I have to interject yet again on this point.


I do agree to a point. There are a lot of ifs and assumptions in using that method. I make a living with my hands and would prefer to keep them intact. The data that is provided is using, typically, a generic receiver with no cylinder gap. Also a longer barrel will provide a higher velocity. I find data in the manuals is rather optimistic at best for velocity, especially in handguns. If you want to chase velocity based on a factory loading and a load manual and different powders, have at it. I still would not suggest this method.

I do realize if you get a factory UMC load and it runs at 1000fps and a load manual lists a powder to obtain a velocity of say 900-1100 based on the load range you "should" be able to safely match the factory 1000fps you obtained over the chrony but it's not a guarantee.

[35remington]

Since pressure tested data is being followed, there are really no significant "ifs and assumptions" in so
doing.

Load data has safely duplicated factory velocities in handguns for many years now.

Your not "suggesting" that method rather ignores the fact that is how it is specifically described as being done. By the load data suppliers themselves. It is rather easy to duplicate factory load velocities in most calibers while staying within loading manual guidelines.

Somehow you are suggesting if one stays within loading manual suggestions and factory velocity is duplicated, the load may be unsafe, which sounds rather odd. Remind yourself that pressure tested data is being followed.

Since the caliber mentioned by the OP is loaded by many, it is common to duplicate factory velocities just as I have described. I do so myself without exceeding loading manual guidelines .

There is really no other way to do it. I do not see your point as valid as it is contrary to what is actually being done safely.

[35remington]

Keep in mind you are not duplicating anything but what the factory load did in YOUR gun. If a load is listed as acceptable in a loading manual(s) that accomplishes this, and is verified as such over your own chrono, exactly what problem will it cause in your handgun?

[35remington]

The bottom line is.....if the load data has to be exceeded to reach the factory velocity pick another powder.

Easy, no?
Thank you for finally affirming my already correct point. I did say within loading
manual guidelines.

[44MAG#1]

"Now, this thread has gone from me asking a simple question to the absolute absurd notion that I must be incable of making good ammunition simply because I don't own a chronograph."

If one has learned something by asking a question them one has learned something.
Some people like to show their knowledge, not to help but to just show what they know.
I own a chrono but rarely use it. If you have knowledge of pressure signs and what to look for then for the most part questions need not be asked unless you are invoking responses just to get a long thread on the subject .
One knows when asking a question like this there will be Dukes mixture of responses that may or may not be helpful or even correct.

[OS OK]

I don't think it's motivated by looking for a long thread...this is all just response to that question and the various rabbit holes we go down doing that.
Now someone wants to close the thread because theres some energetic differences? I don't see anyone calling names or anything like that...just adamant statements of various views and understanding.

We are all talking about pressure signs...not all see it from the same perspective. Allow the conversation to continue and we still won't all agree but, I'll tell you this...everyone will have looked at it through an others glasses and whether or not they change their opinions or change their load workups, it definitely gives all a little new perspective...something new to chew on. Eventually a light comes on in every mans head whether it be today or somewhere in the future...but it happens.

[35remington]

A helpful hint has been if you have contradictory info (load data says okay, confusing primer signs make you worry otherwise) then pull in other data to help resolve the issue.

Measured velocity helps do that. You may not like that response, but it is still a valid point.

[44MAG#1]

Who wants to close the thread?
When one comes on here and asks a question this is one of the quirks of an open forum is everyone has an opinion. Opinions vary as to value. Some have the ability to sound convincing on their opinion as to how correct it is.
Still opinions mean the most to the one giving them.

[OS OK]

The mod did in #59....

[tazman]

Perhaps I need to read the posts a bit more thoroughly. I had missed that line in his post.
Then again, he wasn't wanting to close the thread. Just was warning to keep it civil.

[OS OK]

Taz it's getting so that you can't get emphatic/get your blood pressure up without one of the mods waiving his/her hammer over your head.
Constantly pushing the 'family forum' line...yet when a poll is posted you see that we don't have the youth among us...and it was civil.

This poll . . . http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?339006-Casters-ages-with-a-more-uniform-scale&p=4163655#post4163655 . . . Casters' ages with a more uniform scale . . . for example, 2 in the age group of 20~25, (adults), 0 responding for the under 20 age group.

Men/adults have a way to communicate where the oddball/extremist/loudmouth/knowitall in the group tends to ostracize themselves via their own commentary, but on the other hand, given enough time and feedback to recognize the error in their way/thought/idea/whatever, eventually they come around or fade off into cyberspace somewhere.
If not, then people get fed up with their BS and don't bother to respond or take them seriously. The thread has a short term hiccup and it rolls along when one of the fellas says "lets get back to/or regarding the OP's original question in the post at hand". After all we are all adults engaging each other.
More than once I've seen a thread start to go south and then one fella clarifies what he meant to say and suddenly 'all is well' and the thread progresses. Men learn to have respect for one another when they witness this.

I get irritated with the 'little threat' when it's not necessary. It's authoritarian.

I know...save your responses..."It ain't our house, not our rules...we're guest here. I got it."
It's just kinda like going to the Dr.'s office and having the little girl who does vitals speak to you like your a 6 year old...(some will get it some won't).

[HATCH]

Taz it's getting so that you can't get emphatic/get your blood pressure up without one of the mods waiving his/her hammer over your head.
Constantly pushing the 'family forum' line...yet when a poll is posted you see that we don't have the youth among us...and it was civil.

This poll . . . http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?339006-Casters-ages-with-a-more-uniform-scale&p=4163655#post4163655 . . . Casters' ages with a more uniform scale . . . for example, 2 in the age group of 20~25, (adults), 0 responding for the under 20 age group.

Men/adults have a way to communicate where the oddball/extremist/loudmouth/knowitall in the group tends to ostracize themselves via their own commentary, but on the other hand, given enough time and feedback to recognize the error in their way/thought/idea/whatever, eventually they come around or fade off into cyberspace somewhere.
If not, then people get fed up with their BS and don't bother to respond or take them seriously. The thread has a short term hiccup and it rolls along when one of the fellas says "lets get back to/or regarding the OP's original question in the post at hand". After all we are all adults engaging each other.
More than once I've seen a thread start to go south and then one fella clarifies what he meant to say and suddenly 'all is well' and the thread progresses. Men learn to have respect for one another when they witness this.

I get irritated with the 'little threat' when it's not necessary. It's authoritarian.

I know...save your responses..."It ain't our house, not our rules...we're guest here. I got it."
It's just kinda like going to the Dr.'s office and having the little girl who does vitals speak to you like your a 6 year old...(some will get it some won't).


When the staff gets called to a thread multiple times over issues then that thread risk being closed.
I have seen MANY threads "GO SOUTH" in the matter of minutes. Mostly PIT thread.
Our job as Staff is to stop this from happening.
This includes waiving our little hammer over your head in the hopes that you will be careful in your responses.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Some members just don't care and like feeling the blow of the hammer.

Your poll that your linked.
Does it include the over 500 "GUEST" that are currently viewing CB right now?
And considering we have over 40K members and the poll has under 600 response, I don't think it really reflects CB members.
One last thing, what under 20 year old is gonna respond to a poll anyway??

The thread has run its coarse.