Taylor throating?

[Schreck5]

I have tried everything and my 2 .45 bisley are still leading up. I'm at my wits End! One is a stainless 5.5" bbl and the other is a7.5" blued bbl. Cylinder. throats are reamed .4525 and forcing cones are recut at 11 deg. How hard is it to Taylor throating the barrels, or is it even advisable? Should this be done by a qualified smith? Fire lapping sort of maks me nervous too.

[jcren]

Contact dougguy on here. Awsome results at a more than fair price. If he can't fix it, it is a paper weight.

[dubber123]

You should have cured most of the potential causes. Can you detect thread choke at the barrel/frame junction? What is your alloy, lube and load? Don't fear firelapping, it works REALLY slowly, particularly on Ruger SS guns.

I have been shooting 300+ grain plain base boolits from a 5.5" Bisley at 1,300+ fps., you should be able to get there too.

[Schreck5]

Contact dougguy on here. Awsome results at a more than fair price. If he can't fix it, it is a paper weight.

Thanks, I pm' ed Doug guy. Maybe there is hope yet.

[Char-Gar]

Most leading can be traced to the loads. Continual monkeying with the gun may not be the way to go.

[Outpost75]

^^^^^^What Char-Gar said!!!!

Nothing is said in the OP about the alloy hardness or load... It would sure be nice to have more info.

In my experience most leading is caused by bullets being too hard, not too soft. Elmer Keith did all of his .44 Magnum development with 1:20 and 1:16 tin-lead alloys which were 10-11 BHN, and in those days considered "hard" because you could barely mark them with a thumb nail.

Factory loads in black powder cartridges such as the .44-40 were usually either pure lead or were lightly alloyed, typically 1:75 or 1:50 tin-lead, which works just fine up to about 13-14,000 psi.

I use 1:40 tin-lead for most revolver loads up to 900 fps/20,000 psi, and for plainbased rifle loads at similar pressures up to 1300 fps in cartridges like the .32-20, .38 Special., .44-40 and .45 Colt. I use 1:30 tin-lead for most loads in the .357 and .44 Magnums with bullets which "fit," in somewat less than full charges topping out at about 28-30,000 psi.

1:20 tin-lead works fine for gaschecked rifle loads not exceeding about 35,000 psi in rifle cartridges such as the .30-30, .44 Magnum, etc.

The ONLY time I use harder alloy is for GC rifle loads over 2000 fps, over 45,000 psi in cartridges such as the .30-'06 to cycle my M1 Garand, etc. There I use 50-50 wheelweights and linotype, about 16 BHN, which works well with properly fitting bullets, with 36-40 grains of 4064, RL15 or Varget and good lube to 2200 fps.

This business of needing very hard alloy is pure BS and needs a stake driven through its heart in the same manner as the Lyman folklore of slugging your barrel and matching bullets to groove diameter. Horse manure!

[Schreck5]

I have tried straight ww, and 50/50/2%. Plain based and gas checked, mild to wild. Cylinder. throats reamed to .4525, forcing cone recut to 11 deg. About 1" at both ends of bbl are clean, middle portion is heavily leaded. The forcing cone e is not leaded, but leading starts immediately after forcing cone.

As soon as I can get to town, I will get some Chore Boy and then run a tight patch through it.

[EMC45]

What kind of bullet lube are you using?

[Schreck5]

What kind of bullet lube are you using?

It is a mix of bees wax and white lithium grease with a little Johnsons paste wax. It tends to be very sticky.

[Bookworm]

.... About 1" at both ends of bbl are clean, middle portion is heavily leaded. The forcing cone e is not leaded, but leading starts immediately after forcing cone.


Leading in the middle of the barrel ? Like, under the roll-mark ?

Sounds like a candidate for fire-lapping.

[mart]

Like dubber said, don't be afraid of fire lapping. Especially Ruger stainless.

[Schreck5]

Leading in the middle of the barrel ? Like, under the roll-mark ?

Sounds like a candidate for fire-lapping.

WOW... YES....you are exactly right! Leading EXACTLY matches the roll stamping. I have always read about that...why didn't I think of this. Seems so obvious now. So Taylor throating probably won't door any good, right?

[Schreck5]

What grit of compound should I use for the stainless bbl. 220 grit?

[Schreck5]

Just spoke to '2 dog' and he was very helpful and willing. For anyone needing help as I do, I would highly recommend Him! BIG THANK YOU to 2 dog.

[2 dogs]

You are quite welcome Sir. If anyone has any questions about firelapping I will be happy to help.

[Bookworm]

Shreck, when you decide what to do with this, please post back. Particularly if you firelap.

I think there are many people interested in the process and results.

[Schreck5]

My lapping kit should be here Thursday. or Fri. I should be able to have some results by next week some time. If my health holds out.

[DougGuy]

Taylor throating does two things. It was developed by John Taylor to extend the throat and leade ins for a Weatherby rifle that has experienced throat erosion which extends the life of the barrel by reaming out the eroded part of the leade ins.

Whoever discovered this works on revolver barrels with thread chokes I am not sure of, but if a thread choke is severe, .003" or .004" then Taylor throating would be recommended for this revolver if it cannot be rebarreled because by the time firelapping removes a choke this severe, it will have "softened" a significant amount of the rifling ahead of the choke and it can leave a permanently ruined barrel as a result. You have to know how much you can firelap out of a barrel before you start, or you run the risk of totally ruining the barrel. A choke of .002" should be about maximum in stainless for firelapping, .003" in blued steel maximum.

The other thing Taylor throating does is provide a tapering, snug fitting freebore that holds the boolit perfectly concentric with the bore, and perfectly squared with the centerline of the bore so that when it hits rifling it is already sealed and aligned to perfection in the bore. This can promote accuracy beyond basic pistol smithing which can not only cut groups, but mainly add distance to the effective accurate killing range of a revolver. It will lower pressure, greatly decrease leading if not eliminate it totally, and it can in some cases lessen recoil.

But for the sake of discussing Schreck5's two Rugers, unless there is enough thread choke to stop a tightly patched cleaning jag at the frame/barrel juncture, Taylor throating is not necessary. Could his Rugers benefit from it? Sure, it's possible. I -do- own one one of the original now very hard to find Clymer 45 caliber Taylor throating reamers.

[Schreck5]

Well guys...if it were to for bad luck yadda yadda yadda. Shot all 100 Beartooth fire lapping bullets today out of the stainless Ruger. Only gained .0005 in the barrel threads. Yes that's right, 1/2 of one one thousandths. Anywho...I started having trouble cooking the hammer back. Figured it was just dirty from the gritty lapping compound even though I cleaned it after each cylinder full. Got it home, stripped the gun clear down, cleaned it put it back to gather, aaannnddd it still refuses to cock about half the time. I'm tired, disappointed, and disgusted so I'm going to take a shower and go to bed. Got church in the morning.

Does anyone else have days like this or am I just a bad-luck-kind of guy.

[white eagle]

try a different lube
go to White Label and try some 2500 or carnuba blue

[Schreck5]

I forgot to mention that when I now slug the bore the slug goes down smoothly and evenly until it hits the threaded portion, so that much was a success. I will make up some more lapping rounds and work on the blued gun as I understand that it will be easier to do. I will also seat the bullets backwards in the case, per '2 dogs' advice. Thank you 2 dogs!

[2 dogs]

Taylor throating for a sixgun was developed by Allen Taylor. Sadly, he is no longer with us. The following comments are from his son, Rev. Jim Taylor, Shootist.

It was developed for the sixgun by my Dad, Allen Taylor .. back at the end of WWII. He found that by using a long throat it allowed the bullet to be centered in the barrel before the rifling gripped it.

The first article I wrote was about my LInebaugh 45 built on a Ruger. I burned the throat in a few thousand rounds of H110 and 2400 loads. Dad and I throated it and I wrote the results up for the Cast Bullet Association and several other publications.
With that gun the accuracy improved a lot .. and it was accurate previously. The thing is, it shot extremely well with bullets of .450" .452" and .454" diameter.
Jim Stroh added it as an accuracy option on his guns. Gary Reeder uses a version of it (his is longer) and calls it the Maxi Throat. (Reeder has modified the Taylor throat for the popularity of heavier bullets often used today)

Ross Sefried (Seyfried) also wrote it up in the major magazines (Guns and Ammo) when he tested a few barrels and the Taylor Throated one was the only one to shoot under an inch at 100 yards.

The throating was designed with the idea of accurizing the average shooting gun without making new cylinders and lineboring. It works pretty well for that.

I have know the Reverend Jim Taylor for some 20 years, so Taylor Throating for sixguns goes pretty far back. I thought some of you might find this interesting.

As for our original poster Schreck5, per our conversation on the phone, when slugging his barrel(s), he felt restriction not only at the threads but under the lettering on the barrel as well. Since his restriction was at the threads as well as again further down the barrel, simply Taylor throating would not fix his restriction issue. In this case, he has very little to lose by firelapping and everything to gain. My advice to him was to find fired brass cases that were a slip fit in both cylinders and to start with the blued sixgun first. That way, if the blued gun lapped right in, he wouldnt be stuck with a bunch of firelap ammunition that would not fit his stainless gun. He opted to firelap the stainless gun first instead. No harm done. Just a different path down the same road. Let's see what the next session yields.

[Schreck5]

Taylor throating for a sixgun was developed by Allen Taylor. Sadly, he is no longer with us. The following comments are from his son, Rev. Jim Taylor, Shootist.

It was developed for the sixgun by my Dad, Allen Taylor .. back at the end of WWII. He found that by using a long throat it allowed the bullet to be centered in the barrel before the rifling gripped it.

The first article I wrote was about my LInebaugh 45 built on a Ruger. I burned the throat in a few thousand rounds of H110 and 2400 loads. Dad and I throated it and I wrote the results up for the Cast Bullet Association and several other publications.
With that gun the accuracy improved a lot .. and it was accurate previously. The thing is, it shot extremely well with bullets of .450" .452" and .454" diameter.
Jim Stroh added it as an accuracy option on his guns. Gary Reeder uses a version of it (his is longer) and calls it the Maxi Throat. (Reeder has modified the Taylor throat for the popularity of heavier bullets often used today)

Ross Sefried (Seyfried) also wrote it up in the major magazines (Guns and Ammo) when he tested a few barrels and the Taylor Throated one was the only one to shoot under an inch at 100 yards.

The throating was designed with the idea of accurizing the average shooting gun without making new cylinders and lineboring. It works pretty well for that.

I have know the Reverend Jim Taylor for some 20 years, so Taylor Throating for sixguns goes pretty far back. I thought some of you might find this interesting.

As for our original poster Schreck5, per our conversation on the phone, when slugging his barrel(s), he felt restriction not only at the threads but under the lettering on the barrel as well. Since his restriction was at the threads as well as again further down the barrel, simply Taylor throating would not fix his restriction issue. In this case, he has very little to lose by firelapping and everything to gain. My advice to him was to find fired brass cases that were a slip fit in both cylinders and to start with the blued sixgun first. That way, if the blued gun lapped right in, he wouldnt be stuck with a bunch of firelap ammunition that would not fit his stainless gun. He opted to firelap the stainless gun first instead. No harm done. Just a different path down the same road. Let's see what the next session yields.

:drinks:

[Bookworm]

Wait.... are you saying you broke a Ruger ?

Impossible ! :o