Persistent Occassional Failure to Fire

[Javelin Dan]

Hey folks,

It’s been a while since I posted, but I have a persistent problem that I thought I’d throw out and see if those more experienced could help. I’ve been hand loading for about three years now. Among other calibers, I load for .32 ACP and .32 S&W long. With the ACP’s, I’m using a Berry’s 71 gr. Plated RN bullet, and with the longs I’m using a Missouri Bullet 100 gr. tech coated semi-wadcutter. But the projectiles are not the issue here. In both loadings I’ve been using 2 gr. Bullseye and Winchester SP primers. In both cases, I’m using previously fired brass of mixed headstamps. All rounds are pressed on a Lee’s single stage press.

The problem is that with the long rounds, I experience a failure to fire maybe once every ten rounds. If I cycle through the cylinder and try to fire that bullet again, about 50% of the time it will fire on the second try, 50% of the time it won’t even if I rotate around and try a third time.

I know most of you will point to the primer not being seated deep enough. I’m leaning that way too, but don’t know what to try next. Here’s why…

Early in my hand loading career, I was having problems with many failure-to-fires. In fact, I posted here about the problem. I was counseled to to find a way to make sure the primers were properly seated. I followed someone’s advice and bought one of those primer tools with the long plunger and spring (ram tool?), but I never really liked it and couldn’t get a feel for when the primer was seated, so I went back to the Lee’s tool. I eventually learned that instead of pushing hard on the handle to seat the primer, I would just grab the frame of the press and the handle and squeeze together firmly. This way, I could “feel” the primer go home and seat and just to be sure, I even adapted to a “double tap” method just to make sure that sucker was home.

I now no longer have any issues at all with failure-to-fires in my .32 ACP’s or my .38 Specials, but the problem persists in my .32 longs. I do want to acknowledge that I did notice early on that in using mixed headstamps, there can be a wide variation in the amount of pressure required to seat a primer. Some slide in like a greased pig, others feel like you’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole. For some reason, this seems more pronounced with the long brass than with the ACP. One thing I’m wondering is if I bought all new brass (Starline?), would a lot of this go away? OR, could I be having a light firing pin strike in my 7-shot Kimmel snubbie?

Anybody, anybody, Bueller…?

[Outpost75]

The imported brass, PARTICULARLY S-B has differently dimensioned primer pockets than US manufacture, and they tend to run tight. If a particular make or batch of brass has tight primer pockets, I would swage or ream them. I don't know about striker energy in your Kimmel. Winchester WSPs are harder than Remington 1-1/2 or Federal 100s, but not as hard as CCIs.

I shoot Colts and S&Ws with stock factory actions, deburred and smoothed up, but standard springs. My revolvers will set off Federal 200 small rifle primers 100 out of 100. I had JGS make gage holders for size "C" .225x.400 annealed copper crushers so the gunsmith who does my work can check striker indent of my .32 ACPs which I carry for deep cover. My former German police Walther PPs made in the mid-1960s all have 0.012" copper indent on the government gage and 0.028-.032" driven striker protrusion, same indent specs as a 9mm M9!

Revolvers are set up for minimum 0.010" copper indent in DA mode, with 0.011" being the target.

I use only Starline, Remington or Winchester brass.
I clean primer pockets.
I don't prime on the press, I use an RCBS Posi-Prime hand tool only.

[David2011]

Agreed, if you have S&B brass the pockets will be very tight. All S&B in my reloading room goes in the scrap brass bin. It can be fixed with swaging or reaming but I'm not going to as long as I have lots of brass.

OTOH, I use most any other brand of brass randomly mixed, never clean primer pockets and prime all of my large volume handgun rounds for sport and competition on (gasp!) progressive presses. I do prime most rifle and all low volume handgun on an RCBS bench primer. No FTF in the last 100K or so rounds.

[JSnover]

Don't rule out the gun. Maybe some problems with your load technique caused trouble with all of the others and you never knew there was a mechanical issue with the Kimmel.

[Hick]

One thing you can check is to feel the primers after priming. Primers are supposed to be seated slightly deeper than the base of the brass. Try your fingers--With the brass upside down in a loading block run your fingers over the primers one by one. Fingertips are amazingly sensitive-- you can easily tell if a primer is not seated deep. This is an easy way to rule out primer seating as the problem. I do this on every case I prime (I prime 50, then run my fingers over the primers while they are in the loading block, before charging).

[Javelin Dan]

Hmmm...good food for thought fellas. In the beginning, I was cleaning my primer pockets with a small caliber wire bore brush on a slow speed cordless drill. But I started cleaning my brass by soaking it in a solution of Lemi-Shine and Dawn (a trick I learned HERE!) and since then, no need to clean the pockets - they come nice and clean out of the bath.

Maybe I will cull through my several hundred rounds of long brass and relegate the S&B's to the scrap bucket and see if that makes a difference. Boy, when new, those S&B .32 ACP's sure pop out of my Keltec P-32!

Ever since I originally had the problem, I have been very keen on looking at the installed depth of the primers - especially the ones that fight back. Since then, I've not had one that wasn't below flush...though I don't measure the depth.

I DID give some thought to trying a softer primer, but have read that they can result in more accidental ignitions on the loading bench. Anyone want to weigh in on that one?

[country gent]

A new spring for the revolver wouldn't be expensive. Smiths had a tension screw on K and N frames mains springs also that could be adjust tension up or down. You might try a new spring and while apart check for burrs and rough areas. You could also sacrifice 5-6 primers in cases with no powder or bullets, Fire them and see what the indent looks like.

[Rcmaveric]

I have no idea about the inner workings of revolvers. I will buy one and take one apart next year. But i did have fail to fires in my pistol once, and only in that one pistol. The rounds worked great in my others. Compared the firing pin strikes to those from my other and noticed the where shallower on that pistol that would fail to fire alot. Order a new firing pin and firing pin spring. Once it arrived i compared to old firing pin and i was surprised to find that my old firing had broke just the tippy tip off so it wasnt noticable. The new firing pin was rounded and the old one was flat. Hadnt had a problem since.

[Bzcraig]

I have two 38 snubbies I lightened the springs in and for those two I only use Fed 100's because they are soft. I have not had any concerns doing so.

[runfiverun]

I'd separate the brass by brand and see if a trend pops up.
if it's totally random I would try another brand of primer.
if after all that I would look at the pistol itself.

[Wayne Smith]

I got the Lyman Primer Pocket Uniformer in a set. One pass through the S&B brass and it is the same as all the rest.

If you have grit in your primer pocket the bath will not necessarily get it out.

[Digital Dan]

Not to argue against the primer seating advice, but ran into a similar problem with an ancient Marlin 94 a few years ago. Primer seating was not the issue at all, but rather need for a thorough cleaning and replacement of the firing pin and hammer spring. Coincident to that experience I also have a Stevens 44 that required a new hammer spring to resolve the same issue.

A suggestion regarding loading methodology if I may? Do not mix brass brands on the assembly line. Segregate them by brand, load each domain separately. Do not ever mix brass when assembling max loads, nor should you assume that a satisfactory max load in one brand of brass is suitable for all brands. Ignore this advice at your own risk.

[JeffG]

Any time I'm having primer strike issues, assuming the primers are seated and bottomed out, they are usually CCI's. Some of mine, with stock springs just don't play well with them. By and large I use Winchester or Federal and never have an issue. I also have never had an issue with Federal primers. I just treat them like any other, with respect. I do not load any of them on progressive presses, preferring to use single stage press primer tool or RCBS hand tool. If I'm loading SD ammo, I use Federal.

[lightman]

My first thoughts since you had this issue in more than one gun was primer seating. If you have it narrowed down to just one gun now, I would take one thing at a time and either prove it as problematic or eliminate it. Uniform the primer pockets and be sure your primers are bottomed out. Maybe try a different brand of primer.

The next thing I would do is what Digital Dan suggested. Break it down and give it a good cleaning. Maybe try to obtain a new spring.

[second chance]

I got the Lyman Primer Pocket Uniformer in a set. One pass through the S&B brass and it is the same as all the rest.

If you have grit in your primer pocket the bath will not necessarily get it out.

Wayne, I keep seeing "S&B" in this thread, is that Starline brass? I have a bunch(thousands) of "new" starline brass from yrs ago, and I was planning on using it, now that I'm back to shooting and reloading. But I don't need any headaches! Back when I bought it, it was the brass of choice?

[Outpost75]

Wayne, I keep seeing "S&B" in this thread, is that Starline brass? I have a bunch(thousands) of "new" starline brass from yrs ago, and I was planning on using it. now that I'm back to shooting and reloading. But I don't need any headaches! Back when I bought it, it was the brass of choice?

S&B, S-B headstamp is Sellier & Bellot, from Czechoslovakia. Probably the worst brass you will come across.

-*- headstamp is Starline, 100% Made in USA and the BEST of current manufacture!

[second chance]

Thank you Outpost, I was going to hate parting with my "new" old brass!

[Silverboolit]

A couple of thoughts on the Kimmel.... First, check the firing pin protrusion with the hammer down. Second thing that I would check is if the rims on the .32 Long's are the same thickness. Some brass may have thinner rims and there fore do not get as deep of a primer strike.

[Texas by God]

Outpost, I'll have to disagree. Federal is the worst brass IMO. S&B have tight primer pockets but so did some new Starline .41 mag nickel plated brass I bought.
No big deal either way I just use the press mounted primer arm.
IMO YMMV.
Best, Thomas.
And what is a Kimmel? I know Kimber and Korth.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Outpost75]

Outpost, I'll have to disagree. Federal is the worst brass IMO...

You are right as to Federal RIFLE brass. IT IS SOFT and no good at all for anything hotter than a .30-30 because the primer pockets usually loosen on the first firing in calibers such as .223, .30-'06, .308 and .270!

Federal PISTOL AND REVOLVER brass is good.

[Texas by God]

Ok, I'll agree on the handgun brass. And yes with a hand primer tool S&B HANDGUN brass is hard to seat primers. But I've yet to wear out my S&B .38 Special, 9mm, .45acp, .223 & 30-30 brass despite several loadings. It's not my #1 pick but I won't toss it! Tight pockets is the only issue I've seen but that beats split necks and loose pockets or soft rims.
What's a Kimmel?

[Char-Gar]

My first thought would be to clean the internals of the firearm from any old grease and oil and then relubricate. It the problems persist look for worn mainspring. Last thing to look at is the ammo.

[MT Gianni]

Google tells me Kimmel is an RG clone cast and made in the US after GCA 1968. I would see if it is the same DA and SA and strongly suspect a light primer strike.

[Driver man]

I would also look at the revolver cylinder-indexing. A worn bolt or cylinder notch can cause erratic alignment with subsequent primer alignment. It doesn't take much to get a miss fire.

[HeavyMetal]

reading this thread I can see multiple problems that were most likely being covered up by one another!

Lets sort through causes and see if something comes up the OP may not be aware of,

1 WD 40 if you have can of this with in 10 foot of your primer stash your looking for trouble!! Many aroesol sprays can "carry" fumes long after being used, ask me how I know this, LOL! Years ago I removed any such petroleum based material from the loading / component storage area and such problems failed to return. You can also have this problem if you clean your brass with Brasso, the petroleum based residue will stay in the case and haunt you later with mis fires, again ask me how I know, LOL!

Next what primers are you using? Lee has been scaring people for years with dire warnings about using federal primers in their tools and running the risk of blowing your fingers off. However they are the easiest primer to use and very consistent in size and ignition they are my go to primer for serious target shooting period Winchester follows and is used in most of my general practice stuff.

Years ago all the gun mags had writers telling you the primer must be seated below the case head and you should be able to feel the primer seat and run your finger over the primer to feel it was actually lower than the case head, who a lot of hooy! I never once found a case that would accept a primer in such a way until I bought a Primer pocket reamer / uniforming tool.

Holy Moly that made a difference! However it also takes time and effort to run a 1000 case's with a cordless drill and a reamer uniforming tool but you may try this just to satisfy you need to get the primer pockets right, I still use mine but these days only in serious target stuff or during load development.

Next lets talk about your gun: are you skilled enough to pull it completely down, clean it and put it back together? Some of the smaller "inexpensive" revolver can be a challenge to remove the hammer and other ignition parts out of the gun.

But since this seems to only be happening to one gun I think I'd start with a complete tear down and clean up and lube that puppy, you may have broken parts and not even know it, seen coil springs still work but "become" Two piece springs when removed from the pistol!

If this is beyond your skill level take it to a gunsmith but be aware some may not even want to touch it pending on the quality of the pistol in question, had it happen with an old High Standard 22 revolver I got from my Grand parents, it had a hand issue and would not lock up all the time, most smiths simply refused to look at it and suggested I buy a new Ruger 22 auto and hang the old High Standard over the fire place.

Not having a fire place I finally found a smith that would tackle the job, they are now long out of business, and the gun get a bit of a work out every Thanksgiving when the family get together. He did good work and it still locks up tight and correctly.

Bottom line here: I think you got a gun problem and I would start by having that looked at right up front. Then do the other stuff I've outlined above, one step at a time until you figure out the issue if the gun checks out!

HM

[Javelin Dan]

Wow- much to think about but I will take all seriously under advisement. MT Gianni is correct...A Kimmel is a German made gun and asI understand it, a left handed relative of RG. However, this IS an all steel gun and it is seven shot and God help me, I like it!

[HeavyMetal]

looking forward to a post report after a good gunsmith has a look at your Kimmel