Compound linkage single stage presses

[LittleLebowski]

I have a gunshot arm and am somewhat sensitive to the mount of force needed to resize precision rifle brass. I am looking for advice on presses that meet this criteria.

[Grmps]

Any large single stage press will work, the trick is to extend the handle (create more leverage) to limit the force you need to exert.

There may be some compound action press out there that I don't know about that would be good too.

[lightman]

The RCBS Rockchucker will resize rifle brass about as easy as anything out there. C-H, Lee, Lyman, Hornady, RCBS and Redding all make an "O" frame press with compound linkage. Some of the "C" frame presses don't have the mechanical advantage of compound linkage. It would be pretty easy to make a longer handle if you needed it.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Most any modern press uses compound linkage. Or, use your other arm.

[Sasquatch-1]

If you can find a Corbin "S" press (Dave Corbin) that has the loading conversion piece with it, it creates considerably more force then my RC's. I have never used it for reloading but have used my RC's for Swaging. I find the dedicated swage press exerts a lot more pressure with less effort.

[Artful]

I have an RS3 and my Co-ax is easier to size with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c9ZFsSgyeA

[dragon813gt]

This is what you want for easiest sizing: https://www.ch4d.com/products/equipment/presses/RC000

But now back to reality. Any of the current single stage presses have compound linkage. I prefer the Lee Classic Cast. I have a bunch of the others. The handle on the Lee is adjustable so you can set it where it works best for you.

[jaguarxk120]

Take a hard look at the Redding UltraMag press, the compound linkage
gives more mechanical advantage.

[country gent]

Ideally would be to try one before purchasing it. Some Gun shops will allow this even. Another way is to use one of the bullet swaging presses as they have much more advantage power wise do to the intended uses. a longer handle may help with leverage but your also moving more thru a bigger arc. Another way might be to "pre size" with the seating die then finish size with the sizing die. I have a rcbs summit and for case forming its wanting in power. my Bonanza Co Ax is good power wise with the standard handle but the over head linkage limits what tools can be used also. ( this is the same with the summit) Lyman orange crusher is okay for power and tool use. I did extend the handle 8"-10" on mine also for heavy case forming work. RCBS rock chuckers have been a standard for many years for power and ease of use. Right now mine is set up for bullet sizing and mounted horizontally. The RC was originally desighned as a bullet swage press also. Some of the heavier lee presses may be okay also, but lee uses a different handle mount that's harder to make a new handle for if you want to extend it.
My extended handles are made from mechanical 4140 tubing with inserts for threads and a plug for the end This helps to reduce the weight of the longer handle when using.

[jmorris]

I can't think of a reloading press out there that doesn't use compound leverage to amplify applied force.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I can't think of a reloading press out there that doesn't use compound leverage to amplify applied force.

The older ones ones like Hollywoods did not.

[Walt]

Take a hard look at the Redding UltraMag press, the compound linkage
gives more mechanical advantage.

My Ultramag makes life lots easier with larger cases. The older I get the more I appreciate it.

[lightman]

I can't think of a reloading press out there that doesn't use compound leverage to amplify applied force.

I think some of the "C" frame presses don't, but I could be mistaken. I started loading on a Herters "C" frame press that did not have it. We kept our lead inventory on the back of the table and would still shake the table when sizing normal 30-06 cases. The Rockchucker was a big step up in the world.

You guys are right about some of the bullet swaging presses having a tremendous amount of leverage!

[jmorris]

I don't know how old this Hollywood is but that's a compound linkage.

http://img0019.psstatic.com/125203566_vintage-hollywood-single-stage-reloading-press-n1-ebay.jpg

Even the cheap Lee C press uses compound linkage.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(hu4jr2rmo22tri45s0kwbeiz%20))/imgPart/lee-90045_1.jpg

[EDG]

Any of the bigger compound leverage presses will work ok with the right technique. If you have a press that will FL resize a .50 BMG case it should be easy to size most hunting and target rifle brass.
When I get cases that require more than a comfortable amount of effort I can use both arms on the handle.
My stool is the right height so that I can just lean on both arms with my upper body weight to push the handle down. I am taller than most people and I have a 36" sitting height so my upper body is plenty large enough to push the handle down.

You can also get an ambidextrous press that permits the use of the handle on either side depending on using your left or right arm.
The very large RCBS Big Max can be set up with a horse shoe handle arrangement that would permit easy use of both arms.

[flashhole]

Here's another vote for the Redding Ultramag. 300 Win Mag, 7mm RM, re-forming 30-06 to 25-06, 45-70 and a bunch of small stuff. Ultramag doesn't break a sweat.

I've owned a Rockchucker and a Co-Ax. Still own the Lee Classic Cast. None compare to the Ultramag.

[Hamish]

Dude,

No smoke, no bias that will not stand, you need to look at the RCBS Ammo Master II.

204313

This thing is physically twice as big as most any other press, meaning the arm and linkages are longer, meaning more leverage. It's big enough that it's designed to do 50 BMG single stroke. I can do any case conversion I want simply by leaning on the press arm.

It's fairly expensive, but it's worth it's weight,,,,,

[Walt]

Here's another vote for the Redding Ultramag. 300 Win Mag, 7mm RM, re-forming 30-06 to 25-06, 45-70 and a bunch of small stuff. Ultramag doesn't break a sweat.

I've owned a Rockchucker and a Co-Ax. Still own the Lee Classic Cast. None compare to the Ultramag.

My experience also with the Rockchucker. My Ultramag has sat on a custom pedestal since day one. Even then the handles long throw caused some bending when operating it. Dan at Inline Fabrication set me up with a custom Ergo Lever and eliminated that added strain completely. He now has that style lever as a stock item, it's worth a look.

[EDG]

The Hollywoods, simple linkage C presses, and the RCBS Jr do not use compound leverage.


I can't think of a reloading press out there that doesn't use compound leverage to amplify applied force.

[jmorris]

Have any photos of them?

I found some RCBS JR2 photos but I guess they already went to compound linkage.

https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/2320142215/11567204/bill-007.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

[EDG]

You are kidding right? That RCBS JR2 not a compound linkage. That is the only linkage that the RCBS JR ever had.
Apparently you need to learn what a compound linkage looks like so you can identify one when you see it.
I have to ask what do you think a SIMPLE LINKAGE looks like if you think the RCBS JR is a compound linkage?
How about you show us a photo of what you think is a simple linkage is? What you are calling a compound linkage is the simplest linkage.



Elements of a compound linkage
1. Ram
2. Swing arms (the long links) Without swing arms you cannot have the compound swing motion and the RCBS JR does not have them.
3. Toggle block connected to the ram and the swing arms or long links.

The RCBS JR just has a pivot block that only pivots it does not swing and rotate at the same time like a toggle block.





Have any photos of them?

I found some RCBS JR2 photos but I guess they already went to compound linkage.

https://picturearchive.gunauction.com/2320142215/11567204/bill-007.jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

[jmorris]

I was going by the definition of compound lever.

http://wiki.dtonline.org/index.php/Compound_Lever

This would be a class 2 1 lever machine or a 2 bar linkage.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Tool-pliers.jpg/1200px-Tool-pliers.jpg

This is a 5 bar linkage that applies force from one lever to another to increase force.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Locking_pliers.jpg

This is also a compound lever.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Coupe_ongle_annotated.svg

[ulav8r]

The JR handle and pivot block act as a single piece and the link just transfers motion from the pivot block to the ram. I would call it a simple, non compound leverage.

Compare the effort of full length sizing large rifle brass in the JR versus the RC with the same lot of brass and dies, and the difference will be clear.

[dragon813gt]

The JR series of presses suck for FL sizing of bottleneck rifle cases. Tried it once to see what it would take and it's significantly more force.

[EDG]

Compound implies multiple force multiplying features. A plier effectively has only a single movable lever attached to an identical handle which could be called a static member. There is nothing multiple or compound about it. It is no more compound than a seesaw.

I am not sure why you picked vice grip pliers when they are not a reloading press.

Why are you are dodging the photos of a compound linkage reloading press?
Note the long links that allow the toggle block to rotate under the ram as the handle is lowered.
Ultramag press

204467
Lee presses with swing links -
204468

RCBS A4 Big Max

204469






[QUOTE=jmorris;4158033]I was going by the definition of compound lever.

[jmorris]

A lever arm that has a fixed pivot and one that rotates in an arc, a link that connects to the moving pivot at one end and converts the rotational movement into a linear movement at the pivot on the other end.

Is that what I am seeing on the JR2?

That would be the same description for how this one operates as well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=204471&d=1506053183

http://rcbs.com/RCBS/media/RCBSMedia/PDFs/Instructions/English%20(EN)/Summit_Reloading_Press.pdf

[jdh47]

I think the new MEC metallic press offers a lot of good features.

https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/29_3/bestbuys/MEC-Marksman-Metallic-Reloading-Press-26720-1.html#.WcUF97pFwqQ

Joe

[jmorris]

I guess sometime in the middle of the night I thought was thinking about the OP's question and how to put qualitative numbers to the various presses.

The idea of a hydraulic compression force transducer came to mind so I got up this morning and threw one together.

The idea is pretty simple need a bore and piston with a diameter of 1.1276 or so to have 1 square inch of surface area, a gauge that reads in pounds per square inch and some fluid. Then I could pull on the handle with a scale and read the gauge for an input/output force comparison.

It works as I intended, however the area I can measure with it now is of little concern because nothing needs force at that height. In any case I don't seem to have any 7/8-14 bolts or die just a tap and didn't feel like single point cutting the threads but I'll make an adapter so it can sit where the die goes and I can adjust it up or down and measure the last 0.000-.100 of travel the ram has because that's where most of the mechanical advantage is. Then we can have some numbers to play with.

FWIW the little Lee there, at that ram height, was 8:1 or 40 psi for 5lb of pull on the handle.

[lightman]

I'm not sure that we are all on the same page here. There seems to be some confusion in defining "compound linkage". My first press, an old Herters "C" frame press, had a much simpler linkage than my Rockchucker has. You had to stand up and seriously lean on it to size a properly lubed 30-06 case. To the point that you moved the whole bench, even with several hundred pounds of lead stacked on back of it. I do this same job with my Rockchucker with one arm while sitting at the bench.

Back to the original post, I expect any of the major brands "O" frame presses will be easy enough for the OP to use. Sure, we all have our favorites. But truthfully, there is probably not a wrong answer. If I were to buy another press it would be a toss up between a Co-Ax or that big C-H press. What a Hoss!

[lightman]

I guess sometime in the middle of the night I thought was thinking about the OP's question and how to put qualitative numbers to the various presses.

The idea of a hydraulic compression force transducer came to mind so I got up this morning and threw one together.

The idea is pretty simple need a bore and piston with a diameter of 1.1276 or so to have 1 square inch of surface area, a gauge that reads in pounds per square inch and some fluid. Then I could pull on the handle with a scale and read the gauge for an input/output force comparison.

It works as I intended, however the area I can measure with it now is of little concern because nothing needs force at that height. In any case I don't seem to have any 7/8-14 bolts or die just a tap and didn't feel like single point cutting the threads but I'll make an adapter so it can sit where the die goes and I can adjust it up or down and measure the last 0.000-.100 of travel the ram has because that's where most of the mechanical advantage is. Then we can have some numbers to play with.

FWIW the little Lee there, at that ram height, was 8:1 or 40 psi for 5lb of pull on the handle.

Looking forward to seeing more on this. I always enjoy seeing your projects and admire the workmanship that you put into them.

[LittleLebowski]

Well, OP has a gunshot strong right arm and a circa 1967 RCBS Jr press he would like to trade into a press with more leverage however anyone wants to define it.

[Artful]

Hang in there LittleLebowski - this is where it gets interesting - some of us have tried various presses but I have yet to see a scientific chart of the mechanical advantage listed for each reloading press. This is what your quest boils down too. you want the greatest work done with the least pressure applied to you damaged flipper. That is what this will tell us.

Found this,

calculating mechanical advantage of a press, measure the distance of the arc when you cycle the handle the end of the handle divided by the distance the ram moves at the same time ie; 30" divided by 3.5" of ram movement = 8.57 to 1 ratio?
As the leverage is a variable the mechanical advantage changes constantly through the swing of the arc of the handle movement, I think their formula is too simplistic. That's where the actual measurement of force applied to the handle in correlation to force applied by the ram comes into it's own.



I mean if your feeling flush you can buy one of these

http://www.ch4d.com/Media/images/catalog/RC000.png
http://www.ch4d.com/products/equipment/presses/RC000

Rock Crusher Press

2 3/4"-12 top thread.
1 5/8" ram diameter.
Accepts 7/8"-14 threaded shank shell holders.
8 1/4" stroke.
27 1/4" overall length.
Shipping weight: 103lbs
Item #:RC000 $1,583.40
740-397-7214
Monday - Friday
10am - 6pm EST
Made in USA
Which I bet probably beats the ultra mag, A2, Co-ax and anything else "normal" but I doubt I'll ever own one.

Oh, a little googlage found this link
http://reloadingtips.com/pages/reloading-press-comparison.htm


Hornady Classic Single Stage Reloading Press

Weight 9.6 lb
Max opening height 3.875
Ram 7/8"
Max mechanical advantage approx 28:1
( Last 1/2 inch of ram travel)
Primer catcher grade B+

Hornady LnL AP Progressive

Weight 29 lb
Max Opening 4.75
Ram 2"
Mechanical Advantage 18:1
Primer catcher grade A+


Lyman Crusher
Weight 16.2 lb
Max opening height 4.25
Ram 1"
Max mechanical advantage approx 18:1
( Last 1/2 inch of ram travel)
Primer catcher grade F


RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme
Weight N/A
Max opening 4 3/8
Ram 1"
Mechanical Advantage 24:1
Primer catcher grade B

Forster CO-AX
Weight N/A
Max opening 4.0"
Ram 2 at 5/8" each
Mechanical Advantage 30:1
( This press has so much leverage that the manufacturer offers a "Short throw" arm to reduce the leverage.
Primer catcher grade A


found this as well
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?113714-Reloading-press-mechanical-advantage

[jmorris]

Well, OP has a gunshot strong right arm and a circa 1967 RCBS Jr press he would like to trade into a press with more leverage however anyone wants to define it.

I understand and will have some numbers on some of them this next week. I even have a co-ax to test.

This is the easiest one on my arm.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrFhnDQ-eUU

I also understand you are looking for a single stage but progressives reduce the repetitive motion that you have on single stages by quite a bit. Just how much depends on how many dies you are using but 3:1 wouldn't be overstating things.

Case lube will also ease sizing, no matter how much leverage.

[dragon813gt]

The Co-Ax can have all the mechanical advantage in the world. I hate it's operation. I find pulling down on the handle to be more stressful on my elbows. It's one thing to consider when choosing a press such as that.

[Preacher Jim]

Also the coax takes more pounds applied than a rock chucker not much but enough to make a difference with injured arm plus reaching up verses pushing down from normal position.

[LittleLebowski]

Appreciate the input gents, definitely not feeling flush with money, got a family to support on one income.

[LittleLebowski]

Case lube will also ease sizing, no matter how much leverage.

Yup, got several different varieties.

[TNsailorman]

As far as case lube is concerned, I picked up some Imperial Die Wax at the suggestion of a friend many years ago and have not used anything else since. It is smooth and slick and seems to ease the amount of pressure needed to size cases. I wipe it on with my fingers and wipe is off with an old bath towel. works for me, james

[HeavyMetal]

Dollar for Dollar I don't think you can do better than the Lee Classic Cast press, many may have a bit more leverage but for the additional cost I see no advantage, heck for the price of the CH rock crusher you could have a bionic arm built, LOL!

I have a Lee Classic Cast and can generate a bunch of leverage with it and if I need more the press lends itself to creative use of pretty much as long a handle as you want to put on it!

Hunting the auction sites can find you a used one for reasonable money, heck I just bought a Lee Classic Cast turret press on this site for a C note plus shipping a great deal for sure.

Imperial sizing die wax is the way to go if you can find some original green stuff that is, all I've seen since redding took over is a white colored wax and it does not work as well as the green!

HM

[Artful]

Hmm, I bought Imperial sizing wax before anyone bought the company and it wasn't green.

[flashhole]

Me too, bought some way before the company was sold. Never saw any green wax but I have seen green labels on the tins. Great product. I always have an extra tin in reserve. When I break open the reserve tin I order two more. One tin lasts a long time.

[ulav8r]

My Imperial was purchased before 1980, it is white.

[Kevin Rohrer]

My Imperial was purchased before 1980, it is white.

Mine was bought about 10-years ago. It is also white.

[country gent]

Ive been using it since the late 70s early 80s and its always been white. Its one of the best case lubes and works very good. I find it does lessen the force needed to resize brass a bit. Ive even taken to a very light coat on the rounds loaded with carbide dies as it reduces the force to size a lot there. Not really needed to prevent sticking cases but the ease it adds is. I have an old cotton bath towel I use to apply it with A amount in the towel add cases and grab 2 corners of each end in each hand and rock it or agitate for a few minutes. 100 cases or a couple thousand they get a nice even coating like this. A new or clean towel takes more lube until its impregnated with lube so be carefull not to under lube cases when starting out. I store the towel in a ziplock bag when not in use.

[Ed in North Texas]

Dollar for Dollar I don't think you can do better than the Lee Classic Cast press, many may have a bit more leverage but for the additional cost I see no advantage, heck for the price of the CH rock crusher you could have a bionic arm built, LOL!

I have a Lee Classic Cast and can generate a bunch of leverage with it and if I need more the press lends itself to creative use of pretty much as long a handle as you want to put on it!

Hunting the auction sites can find you a used one for reasonable money, heck I just bought a Lee Classic Cast turret press on this site for a C note plus shipping a great deal for sure.

Imperial sizing die wax is the way to go if you can find some original green stuff that is, all I've seen since redding took over is a white colored wax and it does not work as well as the green!

HM

I have 6 presses (not counting 2 MEC shotshell). Two are Lee Classic Cast "O" frame presses. Both were bought new, delivered for a bit over $100.00. My Rock Chucker isn't any better, but it sure was more expensive. Someone back on page 1 stated that you can't put a longer handle on a Lee press. I don't know what Lee press he has, but most of the Lee single stage presses have had simple steel tube handles for years - which allow a longer steel tube to be substituted.

[jmorris]

I finished the fixture and set it up on my Co-ax first. If it's adjusted where it is loaded right at the spot of most leverage, just the weight of the handle as an input gives over 50lbs of force at the ram.

I am thinking of having it so it is bottomed out at the base of a case for setup then dropping a shim inside the case so I can make repeatable measurements from machine to machine as far as input/output force. I'll see what the other presses I have look like but I might have to change my gauge and or build another one.

[Drew P]

Hang in there LittleLebowski - this is where it gets interesting - some of us have tried various presses but I have yet to see a scientific chart of the mechanical advantage listed for each reloading press. This is what your quest boils down too. you want the greatest work done with the least pressure applied to you damaged flipper. That is what this will tell us.

Found this,

calculating mechanical advantage of a press, measure the distance of the arc when you cycle the handle the end of the handle divided by the distance the ram moves at the same time ie; 30" divided by 3.5" of ram movement = 8.57 to 1 ratio?
As the leverage is a variable the mechanical advantage changes constantly through the swing of the arc of the handle movement, I think their formula is too simplistic. That's where the actual measurement of force applied to the handle in correlation to force applied by the ram comes into it's own.



I mean if your feeling flush you can buy one of these

http://www.ch4d.com/Media/images/catalog/RC000.png
http://www.ch4d.com/products/equipment/presses/RC000

Rock Crusher Press

2 3/4"-12 top thread.
1 5/8" ram diameter.
Accepts 7/8"-14 threaded shank shell holders.
8 1/4" stroke.
27 1/4" overall length.
Shipping weight: 103lbs
Item #:RC000 $1,583.40
740-397-7214
Monday - Friday
10am - 6pm EST
Made in USA
Which I bet probably beats the ultra mag, A2, Co-ax and anything else "normal" but I doubt I'll ever own one.

Oh, a little googlage found this link
http://reloadingtips.com/pages/reloading-press-comparison.htm


found this as well
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?113714-Reloading-press-mechanical-advantage
Exactly! This is why jmorris's invention is better than their formula because it measures actual force at the END of the stroke where 95% of the work is being done. The rest of the travel is simply moving the ram, and case into and out of the die.

I also agree ergonomics play an equally important part in the outcome, even more than lube. Which is why the over the top presses are no good for me. And this is where the Lee classic cast shines again. Unlike most other presses where the stroke handle is fixed, the lee allows much adjustment for the user to dial in where the "hard part" of the stroke will be. It sounds like your arm hurts when you tax it a lot but it's able to do most of what you need, so adjusting just where the magic happens with your particular bench height and situation may be all you need for satisfactory results, and at $100 it's an experiment you can't afford not to try. And if it needs a tad more length it's a simple 1/2" shaft purchase away.

In other words the adjustability feature of the lees handle means that it will require less effort to size a stubborn case than a similar designed press having the exact same ratio mechanically. Don't forget that just as these lever arms are swinging and trading distance/force so are the arms on our body, in exactly the same way, and part of the same operation.

[psweigle]

I have to say, I love my Lee for doing 30 carbine brass, which if you've ever sized, you know how much force is needed. I can adjust the handle to a steeper angle and really get the leverage needed. Does the belted mag cases with ease. And as stated, if you need more leverage, you can put in a longer handle. I use it much more than my jr2. I do however like the jr2 with the Lee autoprime II.

[Artful]

While a longer handle will improve mechanical advantage it says nothing about the initial design.

[LittleLebowski]

I went back home to Wyoming for hunting and took two shooting buddies with me. One of them is giving me a Rockchucker :D