Really poor man's double rifle

[bikerbeans]

Both barrels were bulged at the base of the chokes. Since I mostly shoot slugs and RBs from my scatterguns I opted to over prune a bit at 20". This is an abused 12ga ML by pedersoli. I have tested fired it with .69" RBs, 0.02" patch and 60g goex ffg. Gonna try 50 yard groups next week. Gun is rated for 89g ffg and 1 & 1/4 oz of shot, but with the short barrels I think 60 to 70g ought to be enough.

The sights are attached with jb weld. If I like the way it shoots, I will properly attach the sights and have the barrels bead blasted and properly refinished.

BB

[sharps4590]

Good luck with the regulation....or lack thereof.

[uncle dino]

Looks like fun! D

[StolzerandSons]

If the regulation doesn't work out at least you can still use it as a coach gun...if you had a team of horses, a coach, a driver and you call shotgun first. :kidding:

[Smokepole45]

BB
A buddy and I each have CVA 12ga. doubles that I made from kits when they were available about 35 yrs ago. I was skeptical when he showed up with .690 balls and asked me to go shoot some with him. We used ticking for patches and 90grsof 2f. I was very surprised when after about 6 shots I posted a 3X5 card and hit it twice with a left and right at 40 yds. The patch combination was a fairly snug fit so I gave it a wet and a dry patch after a couple of shots from each barrel to keep the ball going down smoothly. Velocity over my chrony was about 1000 fps as I recall.
Have fun! That shorty looks like a great idea to me. I wonder how it will pattern with 6's?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ball guns - or any slug gun - are liable to make groups a whole lot more than twice as big at eighty yards as at forty. Yesterday, while walking my dog and picking blackberries, I passed little noises in the undergrowth just a few feet away which I thought were too small for a pheasant. When I was past, one of our little roe deer leapt out and across the path ten feet from me. Any deficiency in a gun in that situation, is a deficiency in handiness.

Regulation of the barrels is basically a function of how much recoil energy is imparted to the gun. Even a sleeved bore often isn't that bad if it feels similar, like the Bohemian muzzle-loader I thought had always been a 14ga shotgun till I found a single set trigger in one barrel, and fitted with rifled liners. The powder charge doesn't make that much difference, since if a heavy powder charge recoils more, it does more of it when the ball has already parted company with the muzzle. Adding some extra weight, like dust shot or lead filings between the wads, will move the points of impact further apart. But if you need them moved closer together, try a cast zinc ball.

[nekshot]

that has fun written all over it! Congrats on a very interesting gun.

[markX]

Always thought about doing something like that with an old sxs. Good luck!

[longbow]

I have been told that if you file very slight angles on the muzzles you can move groups around some to help regulate. I have not tried it myself but have been told and also read of it.

With round ball that may initiate a spin by leaking a bit of gas on one side before the other but out to 50 yards or so shouldn't cause much trouble from spin and if it brings groups from each barrel together it would be good.

Nothing to lose by trying and if it works you have a nice little slug gun. You can always use it with buckshot, double or tri-ball loads too if regulation is not good.

I've often wondered why the doesn't seem to be any history of hollow base (Foster style) or Brenneke style slugs used in muzzleloaders... or at least I haven't seen much after early matchlock days. I guess the Nessler Ball would be close to that. Nessler Balls were used in Europe and some in the American Civil War. In any case, a hollow base slug with lube grooves or a lubed wad behind it might be okay in a smoothbore. It would be fun to try anyway.

That should keep you busy for a while playing with the new gun.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

LB,

25 years ago I was removing foster slugs from factory ammo and shooting them out of a 12ga front stuffer. Minute of deer to about 60 yards, per my faulty memory. I have a fullbore HB mold but it throws a 1 3/4 oz slug and not sure if it would load without sizing.

This double is for my amusement, not hunting, and I look forward to trying to make it shoot where I point it. I bought a CVA 50 cal double RB mz a long time ago and was able to play with loads to"regulate " it well enough to put a whitetail in the freezer. The CVA was regulated by varying, ball size, patch thickness and powder charge, no gun mods. Since I have already put a file to the muzzle of this shotgun I am not opposed to removing a little metal if it needs it.

BB

[bikerbeans]

Double barrel double post!

BB

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't know anyone personally who has bevelled the muzzles, but it sounds convincing. I would start with a visually very slight bevel. I don't believe it would be as harmful as it would be with an elongated, flat-based rifle bullet, for which read all you hear about barrel-crowning. What you can't do is minimise the tendency to produce a wobble by using deep wadding behind the ball. If the ball leaves the muzzle before any gas, you can't change where it goes. I don't know of anyone drilling holes into the barrel, on the outside to make them converge and above and below the rib to do the opposite. But it might well work better. Again though, start small.

A ball can a roll in two different ways. The easy one to control, by a sabot or tight patch, is rolling along the barr wall. But the most perfectly projected ball is liable to start rolling in the air. Basically a cushion of compressed air builds up in front of the ball, which eventually but at an unpredictable location slips out from behind it.

Slugs with forward weight distribution essentially have a light tail at the retar, to prevent roll or wobble by creating drag. The most extreme example I know is a set of Corbin swaging dies, surely fabulously expensive, which make a sort of little bomb with a pointed and finned tail. A nineteenth century device was an ordinary nail with its head cast into a ball and the rest of it sticking out.

The trouble is, appendages of this kind, when they wobble to one side and get forced back in by drag, don't just stop in the centre. Inertia makes them wobble out on the opposite side, then back, then... A drastic cyclic wobble can arise. The nail dodge was said to be better than a plain musket ball at hitting something battalion-sized at three hundred yards or so, although surrendering afterwards might have been tricky. But it was no better at hitting something smaller at hunting ranges.

[rockrat]

Look up Sabatti double rifles. People had problems with their guns as many were regulated with the "grind muzzle" option. Might shoot great @50 and be two feet apart @100. I had a 45-70 that way.

[bikerbeans]

Preliminary range results, using 70g ffg goex, 0.01" dry patch and 69 cal lee RB.

Right barrel shoots to POA at 50 yards, left barrel same elevation but a foot left of POA. Gonna slowly massage the left crown and see if I can get both impacts on a paper plate at 50 yards. I didn't like the rifle sights so I removed them. I plan to install a trade rifle style front sight and use a consistent check weld for the rear.

Gun is a lot of fun to shoot and BP smoke is a good thing.

BB

[longbow]

BIS:

I made a mould to produce finned slugs several years ago. A simple push out mould with a slotted and bored core set screwed in place. The slugs looked good and had good balance point but didn't do any better than most other slug designs.

I shot some commercial "Rocket Slugs" Diehard sent me as well and they were a 4 finned affair but they shot even worse. I haven't tried those Corbin slugs but the ones I have seen have a large hollow cavity in the nose so I am not sure they would have very good weight distribution. Hard to say without trying them though.

One of the regular posters here (who's name I have forgotten) commented on "blanketing effect" making fins more or less useless because they ride in a partial vacuum behind the shockwave at the nose of the slug. The finned military smoothbore slugs now used are very long and more dart like with fins beyond the body which is tough to do with a shotgun slug.

Turbo1889 posted some info on optimum Foster slug length which was something like 1 to 1 1/2 X diameter and Brenneke style being something like 1 1/2 to 2 X diameter for best stability.

I think there is a tendency to wobble as you point out and that there are slug proportions and balance that minimize that tendency.

Of course round balls do not have that tendency to wobble being spherical and generally fly quite well until they pick up a drag induced spin. Good launch and very smooth balls should provide the longest stable range.

As for beveling the muzzles, I have not been able to find the original article I saw but there are several posts on Double Gun Shop and American Longrifles about beveling the muzzles of shotguns to correct POA. Beveling the face of the muzzles is commented on as well as removing small amounts of metal from the inside of the muzzle. The intent appears to be the same and that is to create a corrective force by bleeding gas off once side of the ball. I think I'd try beveling the face of the muzzle as it would be easier to correct if it didn't work by simply flattening and squaring the faces of the muzzles again. We are talking just a few thou being removed so gas leaks out there giving uneven force on the ball as it leaves the muzzle.

Like I said though I have not tried it, just read about it and been told it works.

Sounds like BB has himself a fun gun and at least one barrel that shoots where it is pointed so that's good. And yes BP smoke is a good thing!

Longbow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

We are talking just a few thou being removed so gas leaks out there giving uneven force on the ball as it leaves the muzzle.




It might be better if we weren't. That is what can make an elongated bullet wobble or start a round ball rolling earlier than it otherwise might. That is why the idea of a hole drilled in the barrel intrigues me. An inch or more back (I'm guessing here), with something like a shotgun wad behind the ball, it would kick the barrel sideways before the ball exits the muzzle. I would start the hole improbably small with a jeweller's drill and enlarge it as required. It is a lot easier than starting a hole large and reducing it.

I'm sure you are right about a smooth and accurately formed ball being slowest to pick up a roll in the air. We do see people talking here about casting zinc balls to increase velocity and/or reduce recoil. I can't see why we couldn't use the most perfectly polished spheres of all, ball bearings in a shot cup wad or other wrapping. 23/32in. is .719in. and 18mm. is .709in. They are available from about 57 cents apiece on eBay, and if you have a sand or wood backed range you will get them back for reuse.





Sounds like BB has himself a fun gun and at least one barrel that shoots where it is pointed

Some people don't even have one.

[longbow]

Now that you mention it, I haven't thought about ball bearings in shotcups for quite sometime. They would indeed be about as perfect a sphere as can be found for sure.

BPI lists recipes for some very light payloads and they may be suitable for a ball bearing. I'll have to check that out.

I'd be inclined to use steel shot wads with thick petals rather than risk pinching a thin petal off then having hardened steel "burnishing" the bore of my shotgun.

Might be a good way to test the maximum dependable range for a round ball from smoothbore. Kinda light but certainly a perfect sphere.

[flint45]

Looks cool it will be great for up close shooting keep us posted how it does.

[kens]

Yeah, that's got fun written all over it.

[Rio Grande]

Why not a slug on one side, and buck on the other?
You have versatility, why not use it?
Sort of like modified and full for a shot shooter. First for up close, second for a bit more away.
Regulation not so much an issue then.

[scattershot]

I was thinking of that myself. Why not just shoot roundballs from the barrel that shoots them well, and load the other with shot? Similar to the old Cape Gun concept.

[BAGTIC]

Now why would a sphere pick up drag induced "spin". Even with an imperfect sphere it would rotate just enough to assume an orientation that produced the least drag and stay there. I suggest that what happens is that the ball begins to veer to one side or another and then because there is no spin to balance out the direction of the veering it begins to accumulate in the same direction just as do bird shot. Or are we to assume that bird shot patterns spread because they are spinning?

[DIRT Farmer]

There is a lot of history of barrels being beveled to get them to shoot together even with shot. I have moved the point of impact on several. The cheaper old muzzleloading guns were just brazed together not regulated. It does not take much just a slight bevel with a sharp hard pen knife on the oppisite side of where you want the charge to go. Shoot patterns and work slow

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Now why would a sphere pick up drag induced "spin". Even with an imperfect sphere it would rotate just enough to assume an orientation that produced the least drag and stay there. I suggest that what happens is that the ball begins to veer to one side or another and then because there is no spin to balance out the direction of the veering it begins to accumulate in the same direction just as do bird shot. Or are we to assume that bird shot patterns spread because they are spinning?

General Hatcher explains it as being like what is rather inelegantly termed the spit ball in baseball, bowled without spin. A cushion of higher-pressure air builds up in front of it, and at some unpredictable point along its path, the ball slips out from behind it. picking up a transverse spin. The resulting difference in airspeed on different sides of the ball produce different pressure, much like the upper and lower surfaces of an aircraft's wing. A spin picked up by rolling along the bore surface has the same effect, but has it right from the start, and is most often in the same direction, due to the roll being along the bottom of the bore.

This does explain why a hundred-yard group can be much more than twice as wide as a fifty-yard one. I'm sure it does happen with birdshot, although it is impossible to distinguish from other causes of spread, such as choke, deformation of pellets, muzzle blast and penetration of gases past the wad.

Yes, cheap guns, breech-loaders included, sometimes got no regulation at all, in the sense of pattern testing and resoldering. A few rifles had two notches in the rear sight. But that isn't to say the barrels were parallel to one another. It would require massive extra weight in the fore-part of shotgun barrels to do that deliberately. The barrels were shaped to give an amount of convergence that had been found to shoot not too far apart.

Only a few Belgian guns were brazed all the way to the muzzles. It was a lot more trouble, and it was very easy to damage the steel by overheating. You wouldn't want that to be repeated in true barrel regulation. The better Belgian makers were among the first to want to avoid brazing altogether, hence the invention of monobloc construction, initially known as the Pieper breech, which made it possible to get by with soft soldering alone. Here is another way to the same end in my 1926 Pieper. You can barely see where chopper lumps (aka underlugs) like tiny axe-heads integral with the barrel, are almost invisibly dovetailed together. BSA did the same, making their rather good and inexpensive 12ga a little wider and heavier than it needed to be. But mine is a 24ga, and if I noticed, I could live with its feeling like a 20 and firing the load of a modern 28.


206040

Chopper lumps were known as a concept, like video phones and self-driving cars, for a long time before they became practical. In the days of damascus barrels and for a little afterwards, they needed a harder steel for the lumps needed to be harder than they could make into good barrels. So three pieces, with the lumps brazed into the barrel assembly. As barrel steels and the forging of of them improved, makers of British best guns took to flat and brazed chopper lumps. They changed in the 1940s to silver solder for those few inches, which melts at lower temperatures than brazing, and soft solder the rest.

[dogrunner]

I have been told that if you file very slight angles on the muzzles you can move groups around some to help regulate. I have not tried it myself but have been told and also read of it.

With round ball that may initiate a spin by leaking a bit of gas on one side before the other but out to 50 yards or so shouldn't cause much trouble from spin and if it brings groups from each barrel together it would be good.

Nothing to lose by trying and if it works you have a nice little slug gun. You can always use it with buckshot, double or tri-ball loads too if regulation is not good.

I've often wondered why the doesn't seem to be any history of hollow base (Foster style) or Brenneke style slugs used in muzzleloaders... or at least I haven't seen much after early matchlock days. I guess the Nessler Ball would be close to that. Nessler Balls were used in Europe and some in the American Civil War. In any case, a hollow base slug with lube grooves or a lubed wad behind it might be okay in a smoothbore. It would be fun to try anyway.

That should keep you busy for a while playing with the new gun.

Longbow

Baird, in Hawken Rifles, mentions and posts photos of precisely this method of regulation. Dunno, have never tried it, but the concept makes sense.

[texasnative46]

bikerbeans,

IF it was my shotgun, I'd have one of the barrels rifled for a ML Cape Gun.

yours, tex

[quasi]

Baird, in Hawken Rifles, mentions and posts photos of precisely this method of regulation. Dunno, have never tried it, but the concept makes sense.

He also discusses it in a 3 Book series sold by Precision Shooting Magazine years ago, the books were called "the best of Black powder Cartridge magazine" I believe.

[bikerbeans]

Update. I finally sourced 40 pounds of extremely pure lead and made a bunch of 30:1 alloy. I am casing a +700g HB slug that drops about 0.735" and then sizing it to 0.722". This is a decent fit but not to tight. A 12ga over powder card will hold the slug in place when the other barrel is fired with 65g ffg. I was able to POI of both barrels by beveling the muzzle. Right barrel is decent left barrel is still impacting too far left of POA. Today I drilled one 1/8" hole at 9 0'clock on the left barrel about 2" back from the muzzle. Will try again next week and see what that does. If I keep trimming the barrels and can't regulate this gun maybe I just go all in an make a 12ga ml Howdah pistol.

BB

[bikerbeans]

Well the 1/8" port in the left barrel moved the POI 4 to 5 inches to the right so that is close to POA, however the HB slug is now tumbling! Back to a roundballs i guess.

BB

[kens]

I heard good things about these molds,
http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/index.html

they are brass, single cavity, and use the Lee handles

[longbow]

Nothing wrong with a round ball! They are still my favourites.

RB's may respond to muzzle beveling better than a slug which can tip and wobble if it gets uneven forces on the base.

Longbow

[finstr]

I heard good things about these molds,
http://www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/index.html

they are brass, single cavity, and use the Lee handles

Those molds look fantastic!

[longbow]

I don't have one but have read nothing but good things about them and he'll make them in any size you want.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

I will try patched .690" balls first because I have a mold. I may also try the HB slugs with a wad if I can find one that will fit down a .723" bore.

BB

[kens]

I don't have one but have read nothing but good things about them and he'll make them in any size you want.

Longbow

here is a youtube on these molds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHo0qDU1b6U