Turnbull 1886

[rldarmstr]

Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.

Very disappointed!

[osteodoc08]

Miroku actually makes very finely crafted firearms. Both the citori and 1886 for certain as I have each. It far exceeds anything being put out by Henry or Remlin in terms of finish and quality, not to say Henry and Remlin are bad. The Browning branded 1886s are more faithful copies than the Winchesters BTW. Too bad their prices are redicukous on sites like GunBroker.

Fear not, use the correct screw and enjoy our finely crafted firearm that will last several lifetimes.

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree with osteodoc. As much as I dislike an American classic like Winchester being made elsewhere, they are putting out a quality product much better than anything Remington is now making.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Miroku makes a damn fine gun, not only Winchester's but high end Browning too. Winchester and Browning are today and for some time, just a trademarked brand name used under license. There is no such thing as Winchester or Browning anymore. All the guns sold with those names are guns made by someone else or guns that are wholly-owned, designed and branded by someone else and they are imported here with a different brand name and model and maybe some small changes. Just like all the Springfield XD pistols. Those are Croatian made gun by HS Produckt with the Springfield name slapped on it. LOTS of guns are that way today, sold under a brand that is just a name. There isn't a Winchester or Browning or Springfield factory machining out guns anymore. Turnbull really didn't have any feasible options for a new canvas to build off of apart from making it all from scratch and Miroku is a fine stand-in. If it were mine I would be only slightly annoyed they just didn't use the same metric thread as it came instead of two mixes of fastener types.

[NSB]

I had Turnbull rework a new Winchester/Miroku 1886 for me and do the CCH, lengthen the throat (there is virtually no throat in the Winchester since it is made to SAAMI specs), and added a modern recoil pad on the stock. When done and complete the gun will shoot five shots in 1.5" at a measured 114 yards and functions flawlessly. Winchester proper hasn't made a lever gun in many, many years. Miroku makes outstanding quality firearms, second in quality to no one. Your complaints against Turnbull and/or Winchester amount to nothing. You've ended up with an outstanding firearm and any perceived problems you're finding don't amount to a hill of beans. There is nothing seriously wrong with what you're describing and it in no way effects the quality or value of the gun. If you're that unhappy with it just sell it. There are lots of buyers who will take it off your hands for what you have in to it. If you want a true Winchester, made in the USA, be prepared to pay a lot and perhaps get a more than well used firearm. FWIW, I've had Turnbull do a couple of guns for me and they stand behind what they sell and their reputation speaks for itself.

[Randy Bohannon]

I would put the Miroku made guns against any of the modern incarnations of historical lever guns.I would also take the Miroku gun 10 out of 10 times. If I had a complaint on any of them it would be rebound hammers and tang safeties, legitimate complaints for sure but can be worked around.

[EMC45]

Miroku AND Howa are both good Japanese gunmakers. Howa made the Smith and Wesson rifles and shotguns from years back and they also make some of the Weatherby rifles too.

[rldarmstr]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

[Shawlerbrook]

Wish they(Miroku)would make Marlins, metric screws and all.

[sac]

what tang sight did you use, Marble lists the metric ones for the Miroku.

[NSB]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

Restoration is wonderful....if you can get any to restore. Turnbull will restore your gun if you take it to them. As far as manufacturing, no one makes quality receivers and parts for these guns as well as Miroku does. Turnbull did try to use Pedersoli guns a couple of years ago and didn't get the quality results they were looking for. You seem to be pretty confused about what Turnbull does. They don't manufacture complete guns from scratch and they don't tell anyone that they do. There are NO DOMESTICALLY MANUFACTURED receivers to use for these guns. Winchester went out of business several years ago and the supply of good condition receivers is close to ZERO. You're not very well informed about any of this and you seem to be on a quest to bash someone whether it be Turnbull, Miruko, or Winchester (just a trade name anymore, not a manufacturer of lever guns). Do a little more research before you spend your money. If you're not happy at this point you only have yourself to blame. Miruko uses metric threads and they're making the guns. That's just the way it is. Maybe you should just buy a Marlin 45-70 and have Turnbull CCH it and slick it up. They'll do a fine job on any gun you send in to them. Had you done a bit of research before buying you wouldn't be crying now....about next to nothing. Sorry, it's just not a problem to anyone but you. I don't think they're going to change how they do things when everyone else is happy and one person isn't.

[country gent]

Turnbull can request standard threads ( SAE NEF) but then its a special run and costs go up on the receivers due to swapping out tooling back and forth for each run. Not sure how much extra this would cost but it would be passed along to the consumer

[Char-Gar]

My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

Doug Turnbull has never hidden any facts about the firearms he produces. I don't have one, but I certainly knew he uses finished Miroku receivers. If you didn't know, that is one you.

[Eldon]

Perhaps before anyone starts messing with a custom rifle, it might be prudent to contact the maker ????

Knowing Doug since he was a toddler as well as having 2 complete restorations done by him, I can't think of a straighter shooter in the business.

[Edward]

Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.

Very disappointed!Perhaps as you learn you will appreciate the fine workmanship that has been provided ,or maybe not as that depends on you (not Turnbull) !

[Greg G]

From a machinist...threads are threads. I would just get the right screw for it and not worry about it. I can understand the surprise though. I went through that I while back with cars that used a combination of English and Metric bolts. Very confusing.

[sharps4590]

Re-branding firearms is certainly nothing new. Sears, Western Auto and a host of others did it in this country for decades. How many single barrel shotguns did Crescent make and stamp another name on it? If one picks up an older British or German firearm with a few exceptions it's likely the name on the barrel was not the maker of the gun. I have a Reilly stamped British double and Reilly never made a gun in his life.

[Traffer]

Miroku actually makes very finely crafted firearms. Both the citori and 1886 for certain as I have each. It far exceeds anything being put out by Henry or Remlin in terms of finish and quality, not to say Henry and Remlin are bad. The Browning branded 1886s are more faithful copies than the Winchesters BTW. Too bad their prices are redicukous on sites like GunBroker.

Fear not, use the correct screw and enjoy our finely crafted firearm that will last several lifetimes.

++ what he said.
Good thing you did your homework. There are many sae-metric threads that are very close and make it confusing. Always good to get it from the maker what they actually used. This is not the last time you are going to encounter metric threads on things you think are SAE. It is happening more and more as Japanese. Chinese and European stuff gets more common here.

[John Taylor]

I don't know why you are complaining, the originals did not use a standard screw size. I had to have a custom tap made, .205-28.

[KCSO]

Mirouku makes good guns and has been supplying them to us for years...Charles Daly, Winchester, Browning, Ithaca... and I probably missed a few on the way. The Winchester sxs shotguns were never Winchester but were Jap. Brownells sells the extended screw you need and actually notes in the catalog under tang sights SCREW NEEDED.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Maybe this is common knowledge to everyone else but it news to me. I bought a Turnbull 1886 Winchester copy a while back. More recently I decided to put a tang sight on it. My eyes are old and the tang sight helps greatly. In mounting the tang sight I found the rear tang screw was not long enough. My thread checker seemed to indicate that the screw was a 1/4X40 thread. I can make a screw on my lath but I had difficulty in getting a 1/4X40 die so I emailed Turnbull to verify the thread and also ask if they had screws for tang sights.

What I found out is that the rear tang screw on the Turnbull 1886 is metric thread. (5.5X05) When I asked, "Why in the world would someone use an obscure metric thread on a Winchester copy?", the answer I received was "The base for our Turnbull 1886 rifle is the receiver made for Winchester by Miroku in Japan. We get them in here and the first thing we do is complete the tang safety conversion and half cock conversion like an original 1886. We also drill and tap the second hole in the tang for the tang sight and tap it to original 10-36. We cannot change any of the metric screws."

To my way of thinking, their first mistake was using a Jap made receiver for another company (Winchester). Second mistake was Winchester using metric threads for their own copy. Had I known this prior to purchasing the gun I would have gone another route, for a lot less money.
.
Very disappointed!


You can buy a 5.5mm x 0.5 die from China for about $11 postage paid on eBay. Whatever people say about Chinese thread tooling, it will be amply good for one-time use on a tang screw. 5.5mm is about .2165in., and the external diameter of a Unified No.12 screw is .216in. I think the Brownells blank screw kit in No.12 would be long enough, at $6.95. If it isn't, the new screw would have to be turned. But the Brownells ones have a very narrow slot, usable as-is, or which you can widen. I use a fine hacksaw blade with the ondulations of the edge belt-sanded flat. General-purpose hardware screws have a wide slot on the principle that a screwdriver needs to outwear hundreds of screws, but a narrower slot and blade suits gun work better.
x
It has to be acknowledged that Miroku do some of the best factory gunsmithing, in measurements that aren't exotic to them. Muzzle not the ox that treadeth out the corn.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Or you could have bought one of Turnbull's already restored real live Winchester 1886's. They usually start around $25K. They are really nice and you wouldn't have to deal with the Future Regret of having Metric Screws that you are probably never going to remove.

Randy

[rldarmstr]

Well I'll tell you why I'm complaining; I'm 71 and have dealt with American Standard screws all my life. Some on guns some on other things. I have many taps and dies and on an American gun I expect the have non-metric screws. I suppose if everything worked out with Turnbull making the rear screw metric and the front screw American standard there there would be no problem but that isn't the case.

The people at Turnbull told me to contact Marbles (that's the sight I'm trying to use) so I did. I gave them the metric specs that the people at Turnbull gave me in our email correspondence. The screw from Marbles arrived today and guess what, it's too small a diameter. It just falls through the threaded hole in the lower tang. So now I have to contact Turnbull to see if they gave me bad information or if Marbles made a mistake. The paperwork from Marbles states that it is a M5X5.5 which I guess is the same as what Turnbull told me 5.5X05? And then I will probably have to call Marbles again and try to get a correct screw (whatever that is), then I have the return the screw I got that is wrong.

it's just an unnecessary big *** hassle when it shouldn't be.

[ascast]

i agree with all of it, and no gun should leave the shop without the proper screws just ridiculous

[Traffer]

Please don't take this the wrong way. If I were you I would spend some time familiarizing myself with metric threads. It really is not that hard. The easiest way is to start comparing them to SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) standards. After a while it gets easier just like metric wrenches ... like 12 mm is close to 1/2 in.
Here are a few web pages that might help:
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/length/inch-to-mm.htm
https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/TapDrillSizes.pdf
https://www.cefns.nau.edu/Groups/fabricationShop/documents/ThreadSizeCharts.pdf

[rldarmstr]

I appreciate the helpful intent of your post but at this stage of my life and for this situation I don't think I will go that route. I have done just that in years past; grabbed a book and educated myself on whatever it was that I needed an education on, but not this time.

Turnbull started this by using a combination of metric and standard screws on the same piece. The situation was compounded by either Turnbull giving me the wrong info on the screw that I needed or by Marbles supplying me the wrong screw.

Had Turnbull used American Standard screws universally on this piece I could have solved the problem myself and be shooting instead of looking at more calling and emailing and time spent.

Sorry if this sounds overly negative but that's the way I feel about it. Had I known that the screws were a mix of metric and standard on Turnbull's 1886, I probably would have not bought the gun.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I think YOU probably misunderstood the actual thread call out .

The actual metric size would be M5 x.5 not what you wrote above. The M5 part denotes 5 MM in major diameter. The .5 part denotes the thread pitch which is .5MM or .5MM between the tops of the threads.

5mm is .1965". and .5 mm is just under .020" at .01965" or very close to 40 TPI,,, but not exactly the same.

You sound pretty miffed about all this and I would suggest selling that gun and removing all this anxiety from your world. Life is too short to worry about such trivial things, and if you can't stop worrying about them I recommend eliminating them.

You should have mounted a receiver sight on that gun anyway. Then you wouldn't have this problem and it would be much more accurate.

Randy

[Randy Bohannon]

The Win/Miroku 1886 and 1873 share the same tang sight hole spacing and threading. I went with the MVA sight on my 1873,recieved the correct screws with a fantastic tang sight.They also make the Marbles style peep sight for your rifle,worth every penny and be done with it.

[Lloyd Smale]

no different then Clements or John Linebaugh building guns on ruger frames.
My original post did not say anything about Miroku quality of a finished product. Miroku may make the best darn firearms in the world for all I know? My consternation arose over the fact that Turnbull, who bill themselves as a restoration/manufacturing company uses foreign made receivers. And, beyond that they are not just the castings, which Turnbull would then machine to final spec's, they are apparently complete and finished with metric screw threads. But drilling a hole, taping a hole and threading a screw to mate with it is not a complicated process. Seems to me the firearms manufactures could specify that good old western hemisphere screw threads be used instead of metric! It makes things a little easier for those of us that tinker.

[rldarmstr]

I think YOU probably misunderstood the actual thread call out .

The actual metric size would be M5 x.5 not what you wrote above. The M5 part denotes 5 MM in major diameter. The .5 part denotes the thread pitch which is .5MM or .5MM between the tops of the threads.

5mm is .1965". and .5 mm is just under .020" at .01965" or very close to 40 TPI,,, but not exactly the same.

You sound pretty miffed about all this and I would suggest selling that gun and removing all this anxiety from your world. Life is too short to worry about such trivial things, and if you can't stop worrying about them I recommend eliminating them.

You should have mounted a receiver sight on that gun anyway. Then you wouldn't have this problem and it would be much more accurate.

Randy

I didn't misunderstand because it was through email correspondence that Turnbull supplied the information. I have it on hard copy. They (Turnbull) gave me incorrect information. Marbles supplied me with the correct screw.

[NSB]

I didn't misunderstand because it was through email correspondence that Turnbull supplied the information. I have it on hard copy. They (Turnbull) gave me incorrect information. Marbles supplied me with the correct screw.
It's not wrong when you don't understand it. Turnbull has been doing these guns for a very long time and I don't think they're even a little bit confused about any of it. Post a copy of the email and let's see what it says.

[rldarmstr]

I'm having difficulty uploading the documents and there are peoples names on these documents that I don't want to show so I'm cutting and pasting.

This came from Turnbull

Robert: The screw size is 10-36 for the front screw (short) and 5.5X05 metric for the rear(long ) screw. The head size is different for Marbles, Lyman and others .You should be able to order screws for whoever made the sight. We do not stock them, but order them if we need to from Marbles, Lyman or Brownells.


This is Marbles order after I spoke with them and gave them the diameter of the original rear tang screw.

204632

As you can see the screw was an M6 not a 05 or M5 as the guy at Turnbull specified.

I have the correct screw now so this is all a mute point I suppose? It was a ordeal that I personally think should not have happened. And, I still have a problem with anyone using multiple screw types (metric/standard) on the same finished product. It disturbs my sense of order.

[Char-Gar]

I'm having difficulty uploading the documents and there are peoples names on these documents that I don't want to show so I'm cutting and pasting.

This came from Turnbull

Robert: The screw size is 10-36 for the front screw (short) and 5.5X05 metric for the rear(long ) screw. The head size is different for Marbles, Lyman and others .You should be able to order screws for whoever made the sight. We do not stock them, but order them if we need to from Marbles, Lyman or Brownells.


This is Marbles order after I spoke with them and gave them the diameter of the original rear tang screw.

204632

As you can see the screw was an M6 not a 05 or M5 as the guy at Turnbull specified.

I have the correct screw now so this is all a mute point I suppose? It was a ordeal that I personally think should not have happened. And, I still have a problem with anyone using multiple screw types (metric/standard) on the same finished product. It disturbs my sense of order.

An ordeal..really? It disturbs your sense of order? You must have a mega dose of OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) as there are not many folks who think your screw issue would be an ordeal. It would be a minor irritant at best.

[dragon813gt]

I happen to agree w/ the OP that all the screws should either be SAE or metric. Mixing on the same firearm is a bit ridiculous. But only in the US would someone complain about metric screws. We would be a lot better off if we switched to what the rest of the world uses. Makes it a real pain when I'm working in a foreign country on one of the units the company I work for makes. Finding SAE parts locally is pretty much an impossibility. Vehicle manufacturer switched to all metric for a good reason.

[rldarmstr]

Well Char-Gar we're all different. In your case I would say that you are Narcissistic and intolerant of others with differing opinions. But then I'm probably as wrong with that opinion as you were with yours.

[Char-Gar]

Well Char-Gar we're all different. In your case I would say that you are Narcissistic and intolerant of others with differing opinions. But then I'm probably as wrong with that opinion as you were with yours.

No, quite tolerant of the ways others do and look at things. Human beings and their behavior have been my stock in trade for well over 50 year. People actually interest me more than guns and I like the vast majority of them even with their peculiar ways and all of that.

My daughter whom I love dearly has a dose of OCD, so it is easy for me to spot. She has her P.hd in psychology, so she know what it is and how to deal with it. I can walking into her home and rotate some piece of decor a few degrees and as soon as she comes in the room she spots it and says "Dad, I know what you are doing". It bothers her "sense of order.

It is not a bad thing in reasonable doses, but knowing what is controlling our attitudes and actions can be a big help in life. We all have our quirks and issues, so they are no biggy as long we know how to deal with it. Putting a name on it is the first step in dealing with it.

It seemed to me that your OP was a mountain out of a molehill thing and I noted the same frustration on the behalf of other posters. Just trying to figure out what the different screws upset you so badly and I still believe I did. They bother your sense or order. People with such a a hyper sense of order, generally fall somewhere on the OCB/OCD scale.

Anyway, enjoy your new rifle. I hope you can put the metric/english sight threads behind you and have a ball with the rifle, but I am not sanguine about that. Likely you will never be truly happy with the rifle.

I would like to have a Turnbull 86, odd ball mix of sight threads and all, but they are way out of my price point.

[osteodoc08]

This thread will now be closed.