Needing help 458X2 in BB94 Winchester

[OlDeuce]

I had a strange request from a long time friend,and thats info on a BB94 458X2 Loading Data ? Boolet weights etc.....
Has any of you Guys Shot something like this !!! It must be close to a 45-60??? or so Thanks

Ol Deuce

[Ramjet-SS]

I built one years ago in a number 1 Ruger. I will see if I can find the data but it is very simular to the 450 Marlin.

[rking22]

A good friend had one in a bolt gun. It uses belted cases, 350 REM mag mostly. Surprised it would fit in a BB94. I can see if he has data after selling the rifle, but I would be careful of the case dia vs design spec in the 94.

[OlDeuce]

I built one years ago in a number 1 Ruger. I will see if I can find the data but it is very simular to the 450 Marlin.

Oh.........Ok Thats kinda nice ...The Info for the Marlin 450 will be easy to come up with !! I'm not a heavy loader ...LoL Thanks for the come back Ramjet-SS

Ol Deuce

[skeettx]

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri140partial.pdf

Lyman 457483
Great bullet

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16289

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I just looked at the loads at reloaders nest. Some of those loads would maybe be a might more than I would run through a BB94.
A couple of those 50+ grains of 4198 with 400 grainers are getting into loads that an 1886 frame will shudder under.
The new 86 frames will tolerate more... but a BB94 ??? We shoot a 50 Alaskan and 55 grains of 4198 is topping out the stress factor on our 86 (jap) frame.
I would not consider going much past those 450 Marlin loads. The 336 is a strong lever action... Is the BB94 equal ?
Mike in Peru

[Texas by God]

Before they were discontinued, Winchester made the 94 AE bb in .450 Marlin. "Timber Carbine" or some such.

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[OlDeuce]

Good morning
I just looked at the loads at reloaders nest. Some of those loads would maybe be a might more than I would run through a BB94.
A couple of those 50+ grains of 4198 with 400 grainers are getting into loads that an 1886 frame will shudder under.
The new 86 frames will tolerate more... but a BB94 ??? We shoot a 50 Alaskan and 55 grains of 4198 is topping out the stress factor on our 86 (jap) frame.
I would not consider going much past those 450 Marlin loads. The 336 is a strong lever action... Is the BB94 equal ?
Mike in Peru

Good Morning Mike...........Your so right about the frame shaking in it's boots LoL..........We'll keep this BB94 in one piece or :dung_hits_fan:
LoL How you been doing in all that THIN AIR??? Kinda tuff to keep that pie warm:roll:

Ol Deuce

[Ramjet-SS]

I have a Winchester AE model 94 in 450 Marlin. I do not even load that to max Cartridges of the world has a page or so dedicated to the 458x2" American.

[OlDeuce]

I have a Winchester AE model 94 in 450 Marlin. I do not even load that to max Cartridges of the world has a page or so dedicated to the 458x2" American.

Ramjet........do you shoot any cast in your AE? Ol Deuce

[Ramjet-SS]

I have a GC 350 grain WFN from an accurate mould. I loaded it over 32.0 grains of AA5744 CCI large rifle primers. Average velocity for a 10 shot string was 1528 FPS.

I also loaded a 460 Grain WFN GC that bullet has to be seated really deep to function. I used Unique for that bullet.

[Ramjet-SS]

So here is some data that comes from Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes For the 458 x2" American

Cast bullet Load data
250 grain 28.0 grains of 4198 1828 FPS
300 grain 25.0 grains of 4198 1370 FPS
405 grain 45.0 grains of 3031 1535 FPS

Jacketed
300 Grain Hornady over 40.0 grains of 4198. 1825 FPS velocity.


I see that they played with a 458 X 1 1/2 as well.

[tech54K]

Thanks for this info and details.

[pietro]

Before they were discontinued, Winchester made the 94 AE bb in .450 Marlin. "Timber Carbine" or some such.



The 1998 .44 BB94AE was a standard 20" Carbine

The 1999 .444 BB94AE was the ported 17" barreled Timber Carbine.

There were also 24" (?) barreled .444 BB94's with a black synthetic stock, called the Black Shadow.

The 2004 .450 Marlin version was the ported 17" barreled Model 94 Timber, built on a BigBore receiver, re-inforced, but made w/o the rear side bulges.

Winchester also made Timber Scout Model 94's on the standard receiver in the few years prior to the New Haven plant closing, but they were chambered for non-BigBore cartridges like the .30-30 & .44Mag (etc).

.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Back in the 60's and 70's there were write-ups about the 458 x 2" in Model 94's and Marlin 336's. Marlin's 1895 ended most of that. The 450 Marlin is the 458 x 2" with a unique lawyer belt so you can't chamber and fire in a 300 Win Mag or other such magnum's resulting in catastrophe.

[runfiverun]

I dunno about some of those velocity's, the recoil will jar your eyeballs loose.
I tried running my 375 win BB up to where I run the marlin and the recoil was about double in the 94, it was worse than in the steel crescent plated 86 with another 150grs of bullet weight.

[skeettx]

AMEN!!! On the 375 BB packing a wallop !!!
WOW!!
Mike

[OlDeuce]

My friend is bring the 458x2 to me this afternoon!!! So my project next week is to get the brass to size and get her loaded up!!!! I'll do a few pictures
also !!!

Ol Deuce

[OlDeuce]

My friend brought the 94 BB and what a beautiful Lever gun I was impressed !! This 458x2 has a Shelling Barrel with the Weatherby coloring WoW

All 115 rounds are scribed and ready to get a 1/2'' cut off!!! good thing I have a lathe .....saves a lot of work !!!
https://s20.postimg.org/c50jdj8tp/IMG_4446.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/emcakssq1/)

Ol Deuce

[OlDeuce]

This afternoon I cut the first 30 cases ! WoW ...talk about thick Brass!!!! This brass should last a lifetime in the 94BB!!!!! it took me 2 hrs with
setup and cutting then!!!

Ol Deuce

[beagle]

Now that you've cut to length, look at inside neck reaming for the depth you'll seat the bullet. In my case, a .458 X 2" on a high numbered Springfield, I got continual case smoking of the case mouth until I reamed mine. Might remember that./beagle

[runfiverun]

when I make 375 super brass from 375 win.
I scribe them then cut the cases with a tubing cutter then just trim to length.
it still feels like it's an all day thing from blank brass start to finished 50 rounds.

[nekshot]

Geeesh, no pictures!!!!! I am drooooling to see that gun seen as I have a 444 Timber 94 that is beautiful.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

For shortening LONG cases, I use a mini chop saw and a Wilson Case Holder (used in a Wilson Case Trimmer). Set a stop block along the chop saw rail. The Wilson Case Holder keeps the case square and eliminates the taper or rim/ belt issues when cutting, also gives something to hold.

[OlDeuce]

Geeesh, no pictures!!!!! I am drooooling to see that gun seen as I have a 444 Timber 94 that is beautiful.

Yup Nekshot ! Check this out
https://s20.postimg.org/yo6eg8vhp/IMG_3932.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/cc8lmuwdl/)
https://s20.postimg.org/vstb9drhp/IMG_3934.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5ki6k07e1/)
https://s20.postimg.org/6y9tfb6nh/IMG_3930.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/xw3qh1rah/)
https://s20.postimg.org/i9h2hf2wd/IMG_3931.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/6kd2tgbxl/)
https://s20.postimg.org/x0bufc6zx/IMG_3926.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/outsh6iqx/)
https://s20.postimg.org/9trhzx019/IMG_3921.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5kmrxqwrt/)
https://s20.postimg.org/541kbb90t/IMG_3919.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/fe3zajyw9/)

With a full Charge this thing has got to hurt !!
Ol Deuce

[OlDeuce]

when I make 375 super brass from 375 win.
I scribe them then cut the cases with a tubing cutter then just trim to length.
it still feels like it's an all day thing from blank brass start to finished 50 rounds.

I'm going to try your trick of the tubing cutter .........Stands to reason ...... Good Tip!!:goodpost::awesome::2_high5::2 drunk buddies:

Thanks

Ol Deuce

[rking22]

Pretty neat!! More room in there than I expected, and plenty meat on the barrel shank. I thought it was going to be tight in that action, like a Fosters can in a coke machine :)
Based on my 375, I suspect some notable reaction to the action of firing! Over all, " It weill keile" , on both ends :)

[OlDeuce]

The tubing cutter works quite well ! Thank you for the tip!
https://s20.postimg.org/pga156fzh/IMG_3939.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/46meubzop/)

Ol Deuce

[Texas by God]

Aw, man you had me till I saw that front barrel band-er...clamp?
Sorry, just my opinion!

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[Ramjet-SS]

I rigged up a clamp,like the one used on the power Lyman brass trimmer . Put it in the lath set the stock then trimmed with a sharp bit. Rotate the clamp 90deg release the brass then to the next one.

That gun is a very effective cartridge works really well on elk and moose.

[OlDeuce]

Fire & Smoke on Friday:guntootsmiley::guntootsmiley::2_high5::2 drunk buddies:

[OlDeuce]

It's so Huge......................LoL
https://s20.postimg.org/dtuz15yzx/IMG_3935.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/o3xe0eovd/)

Ol Deuce

[rking22]

Thats what she said :) couldnt resist. Eagerly awaiting the range review, I really like the BB94s.

[Texas by God]

This thread has served to make me want a .450 Marlin again! Marlin or Winchester. My Rossi .357 and Winchester 30-30 need a big brother. And I already have 60 reloads with Lee 340 fp in the stockpile.

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[Ramjet-SS]

I scratched that itch with model 94 Take Down 450Marlin :Fire:

[OlDeuce]

This thread has served to make me want a .450 Marlin again! Marlin or Winchester. My Rossi .357 and Winchester 30-30 need a big brother. And I already have 60 reloads with Lee 340 fp in the stockpile.

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Well By God Texas ! This will push you over the edge !! I Hope!!

https://s20.postimg.org/4nznalcod/IMG_3940.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/o5uaqj9m1/)
https://s20.postimg.org/y4f9d0j1p/IMG_3942.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4p9l40ei1/)

Now that I have the dies figured out ,the 458 win mag dies are a 1/2'' to long . the 45-70 dies did the job with the exception of the crimping !
the 45-70 bullet seater is 1/4'' to long ! So I need to to put the seater die in the lathe and cut a 1/4'' plus off the bottom ! That will fix it right up!!

I'm ready for smoke&fire on Friday {it maybe saturday morning......The Wife Hmmm} We'll See:bigsmyl2:[smilie=l::dung_hits_fan:

OL Deuce

[OlDeuce]

I scratched that itch with model 94 Take Down 450Marlin :Fire:

Ramjet..........Really ......WoW .. they are making the 94TD in 450 Marlin!!!!!!:2_high5::goodpost:

Ol Deuce

[Ramjet-SS]

Yes they are it is a fantastic potent lever gun. They do port it I really like shooting the 325 WFN GC grain boolit at 1600 FPS. The 300 grain HP runs as high 2200 FPS that gets ones attention in hurry!!!!

[Ramjet-SS]

Awesome rifle http://https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/9/tested-winchester-m94-te-lever-action-in-450-marlin/

[OlDeuce]

We got Fire & Smoke !! lol Not bad with cast Boolit 371gr RN first firing ! Lite 21gr IMR 4198 she was light but the gun stayed in one piece LoL So
my next load 25gr of IMR 4198 and again test load and it was lite So the next load was getting down to earth ! It was 40 gr of IMR3031 ! With the 371gr
cast it was a Moderately lite load! a good starting point with a cast boolit . I would say in the 1350 fps range!

The barrel has an excellent chamber! just a slight neck size and your ready for a reload! I'm really impressed with the Barrel Not so much with the GunSmith
that did the work! What ya think??

Ol Deuce

[skeettx]

Well, it shoots, is safe, and functions
You now have it and are not throwing up when you look at it
So all appears to be HUNKY-DORY
Mike

[Ramjet-SS]

let's get some holes punched in paper that last load will take down anything in North America .

[OlDeuce]

let's get some holes punched in paper that last load will take down anything in North America .

Hahaha Yup But I tuned it up and my final load is 45gr IMR3031 with the 371grRN ..........Than I took my 45-70 RCBS boolit seating die and cut
5/16'' off so I could a crimp on these loads!! I did good ! a nice tidy crimp !!!! My primers look ! the carbine isn't overwhelming to shoot ! The chamber
is like near perfect !! They did a super job on the Barrel !!!!!
some photos

Ol Deuce

https://s20.postimg.org/5mg0cvq0d/IMG_4470.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4wx80ipgp/)
https://s20.postimg.org/xch6rk48d/IMG_4472.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/61vvjn1bd/)
https://s20.postimg.org/cqxtlwx9p/IMG_4466.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/wljv81ch5/)

[OlDeuce]

Gentlemen................Thank You so very much for all the input!:2_high5::goodpost::awesome::guntootsmiley: Every thing worked out very well.
The test fires ,the load information, Thank you !!!! My Friend will have to get it on paper LoL His shoulder not mine:roll: Oh ya The last 5 I
put together were the 300grHP. with 42.5gr of IMR4227 app 2100fps! That should get his attention ! Love it !:Fire::Fire:

Ol Deuce

[Ramjet-SS]

Awesome