Do we need to cut the tails?

[docone31]

I am just wondering,
Is it neccessary to cut the tails? I haven't loaded with tails on, but it would be one less step.

[pdawg_shooter]

If you are loading full density loads (seems to give better accuracy) as I do, clipping tails is required. Light loads make no difference. If I was loading light loads I wouldn't bother to patch.

[oso]

Hmmm, I hadn't though about using the patch tail as filler, but I have considered using confetti instead of bran for filler. For me there might be a problem running 'em through the sizer as the twisted clipped base come out pretty well ironed flat. The tail stub might just pick up a bit more lube, but I don't see any advantage to leaving it long.

[wonderwolf]

I'm not so sure about using confetti as a filler as you would need a lot of it to amount to the density needed would you not? Would it be possible to soak a bunch of shredder shreds in water and make your own thick particle paper using a punch to punch out wads. Crap now this has me thinking...I've yet to get a wad punch for my 45. But I have been dumpster diving for cork board and fiber materials.

[EDK]

Get yourself a press mounted punch...Buffalo Arms has them. Finding a cheap arch punch in the right size is a hassle....and using it and a hammer is worse. Spend a few dollars and save yourself aggravation! I like the press mounted punch for trying things...wax paper between card wads and the lube wad...over primer wads in the casing...whatever you fancy. You can run off some wads with it pretty quick too.

You'd really do better to buy a bag of 1000 wads for around $20; they will last you a few shooting sessions. LOL! I am using .060 and .030 in the 50/90 SHILOH for grease groove boolits and hope to load some paper patch from the KALYNUIK mold this week end. I've been on 10 hour days during the week and overtime on the week ends lately. Only got to do some pistol shooting...but I did find a S&W 624 (44 Special, 6.5 inch barrel) at the local gun shop Saturday; picked it up yesterday for $480.

You either have the money for the toys...or the time to enjoy them. If you have both, you're a lot luckier than the rest of us here. Maybe it'll be better after I retire in a few years, but I doubt it.

To quote a co-worker, ' DON'T GET OLD....YOU WON'T LIKE IT!"

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Southern Son]

+1 on what EDK said about the press mounted wad punch. They are fantastic. I was using one that was mounted into a drill press. I thought that was a good thing, but within 10 minutes of using the press mounted one I have vowed never to do that again. They are faster, easier to use and more accurate. Within reason, anything that fits into the slot can be cut and it WILL be the right size, exactly.

[BrentD]

Why not simply avoid making a tail in the first place? There is no reason to make a tail on a paper patched bullet.

Brent

[bcp477]

In my experience, one can cut the tails or not....it seems not to matter. I do cut them, myself. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me, especially since I use the tail as a handle to hold the (dried) wrapped bullets, while painting them with bullet lube (Lee Liquid Alox). The tails are quite convenient, used that way. Then, as a last step, once the lube is cured, I cut the tails, before weighing and boxing the finished bullets.

[eka]

Brent,

To avoid the tail, do you just make the patch to where the paper folds in flat around the base?

Keith

[BrentD]

Keith,
Yes, I cut the patch about 0.07-0.1" or so longer than the length I need on the side of the bullet. The excess is folded under and the bullet stood on its base to dry, or if wrapped dry, loaded directly into the case.

You should be able to see some of the bullet under the base with the paper folded under. Like this:

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/image3711.jpg

Brent

[bcp477]

Note that folding the paper under (and avoiding the tail) works much better with hollow base bullets. With flat base ones, in my opinion, twisting a "tail" is the better (easier, anyway) technique. I used to go to pains to fold a nice, flat, overlapped "base" on my bullets....but realised over time that this is more work than it is worth. So now, I twist tails. Much simpler and easier to do, it is.

[BrentD]

I use a folded under patch with any bullet regardless of flat or cupped. I know of no serious paper patch shooter (most of whom use flat-base bullets) who twists tails.

I can't see how twisted tails is easier. Did it once, long ago.

But of course, cats can be skinned two ways. That would be my way and "the wrong way" - just kiddin' :) :) :)

Brent

[bcp477]

Oops, I didn't realise that I am not a "serious" paper-patch shooter. What a pity. Tell me, how does one qualify for such an honor ?

[BrentD]

I do not know you. Hence, my statement stands.

[bcp477]

Ah, I was kidding. However, it appears that you ARE a snob. Good enough. Now I know.

[BrentD]

How would I know you were kidding.

I may be a snob. I don't really worry about it. Meanwhile, the statement is, nonetheless, true.

Is it not?

[Black Prince]

I gave you boys a heads up in the Death Match for Bull Goose Looney at Raton thread, so this should come as no surprise to you.

[Don McDowell]

According to the instructions of paper patching in an Ideal handbook from prior to 1900 if you're loading hollowbase the tail should be twisted and pushed into the base, and when loading flat base they should look like the ones in Brents picture.
I fold the paper on both styles.
I suppose in the end it all boils down to what ever flips yur skirts and makes ya happy, as most things in shooting seem to be an idividuals choice.:drinks:

[bcp477]

Black Prince.....

Yes, you did.....and you were spot on.

[RMulhern]

Oops, I didn't realise that I am not a "serious" paper-patch shooter. What a pity. Tell me, how does one qualify for such an honor ?

bcp477

For such an honor?

Easy!

Roll 50,000 PP bullets and we'll let you join!!:Fire:[smilie=1::Fire:

[Black Prince]

The sycophants are cut from the same cloth. As Charlie Askins used to say, "and more is the pity."

[bcp477]

Oh well. There's always one, or more, in every group. I look on it as a positive - in the narrow sense - because now I know who to avoid, or better yet, who to ignore.

[Southern Son]

Black Prince, is that the same cloth, or the same paper patch?

[Black Prince]

:) :) :)

[Don McDowell]

Black Prince are you figuring to shoot your paper patch loads at the Se Regional King of the Hill match, Jim Kidwell and co are putting on this October?

[leftiye]

More than one sycophant/snob/slob here, no doubt.

[wiljen]

Another thread in this forum was already closed when it became vitriolic. I am seeing a lot of the same names and same type of comments here. Keep it on topic please.

[45nut]

Boggles my mind how it is that a hobby you all share can cause such hard feelings, believe me nobody has any agenda regarding any member whether long time or newly registered, nobody in the staff here would care about any discussions here as long as they stayed civil. The firefights on this board lately are all within this area or the BPCR area and amongst people that share a passion within their choice of firearms, so why is it so hard to get along, or simply discuss without slamming and insults?
If the lack of respect for fellow shooters like this was common at a match, how many of you would attend another?
Why is this forum any different than that? We all have so many agencies and anti-gun groups against us already to see such animosity between fellow shooters is quite troubling to say the least.
Surely you have heard of the quote..." We need to hang together or certainly we shall all hang separately"

Please conduct yourselves as gentlemen, scholars and sportsmen first, leave the insults off the board. If you need to settle issues beyond civil discussion take it to private messages.

[Black Prince]

If you look at the names involved, and the dates those names joined Cast Bullets, and when the trouble started, you will see a direct correlation in all of those events. Other boards have had similar problems because of those same names and their same behavior patterns, and it seems that someone, somewhere on the internet would put a stop to them because they cause trouble everywhere they go with the constant little snide remarks just below the level of what it would take to get them thrown off a board.

This is your board and I WILL FOLLOW your rules. They are very reasonable. You have good moderators who are levelheaded people and know their business. I understand that it is a privilege to be here and that you may revoke it at any time. I appreciate having the opportunity to be here and will not knowingly or willfully do anything to jeopardize keeping that privilege.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't give a rip one way or another about post count or join date--if someone can't be civil, he/she/they need to GET GONE. Those who persist in that course of conduct that can't find the door will be shown it forthwith. Dunno about the other moderators and administrators, but if the BPCR and Paper Patching sections disappeared--it wouldn't bother me a bit. Both are more trouble to manage than they are worth (my opinion).

[waksupi]

I don't give a rip one way or another about post count or join date--if someone can't be civil, he/she/they need to GET GONE. Those who persist in that course of conduct that can't find the door will be shown it forthwith. Dunno about the other moderators and administrators, but if the BPCR and Paper Patching sections disappeared--it wouldn't bother me a bit. Both are more trouble to manage than they are worth (my opinion).

Ditto what Al says. There are some who just can't play well with others, and need to go elsewhere. If you want to see the BPCR and Paper Patch forums stay here, there better be a real attitude adjustment. I have no problem moving people down the road.

[RMulhern]

I don't give a rip one way or another about post count or join date--if someone can't be civil, he/she/they need to GET GONE. Those who persist in that course of conduct that can't find the door will be shown it forthwith. Dunno about the other moderators and administrators, but if the BPCR and Paper Patching sections disappeared--it wouldn't bother me a bit. Both are more trouble to manage than they are worth (my opinion).

9.3X62AL

Just possibly there's not too much wrong with the PP or BPCR forums that a NEW MODERATOR wouldn't cure! It's quite obvious that you couldn't care less about both of these forums whether they exist or not by your above statement! Frankly....I wouldn't expect a SP shooter to care one way or the other as that's about like having Tiger Woods being in charge of a 'Mumbley Peg' forum and it just makes commonsense to have a BPCR/PP person as a Moderator! (My opinion)

[45nut]

Well, you simply do not get it do you? We do not hold this BPCR area to different standards, and many times we look away when our terms of service are breached but it is the members duty to abide by the terms of service first. Civil discourse is all we ask. Why is that so hard to understand?

We do not have dedicated area moderators, we are all volunteers. This is supposed to be fun and enjoyable for the staff as members first, not a task. Only when blatant insults are thrown about do we step in, anywhere. Is the BPCR segment of shooters too high and mighty to be civil?
Oh, and if the idea of a dedicated moderator that is a BPCR shooter is all that matters, then ask yourself who is qualified and send me a pm with a nomination and an agreement from them to accept the job on the terms all staff has agreed to.

[onceabull]

Civil discourse twixt members of some factions of BPCR seems to mostly honored by it's absence ,and not only on this board..Seems as though some carry "wounds" from board to board,--doubt it will help "get even".. oNCEABULL

[Nrut]

This is the best and most active forum on the net for PP for SMOKELESS shooters that I have found so far...Since I am not interested in blackpowder shooting I would sure hate to see this forum cut...Like Black Prince said above there was no trouble here until............:roll:

[wiljen]

Unfortunately, most of the discourse we are referencing has been uncivilized and the comments made about needing someone who understands BP shooting to moderate the group points to a basic misunderstanding of the issue at hand. Do I shoot every possible discipline and have all the answers? Nope, and I never will. Does that, in any way, inhibit my ability to be a moderator and to make sure tones stay civil and parties remember that this is a family site? Nope, and it never will.

My expectation of BP shooters is the same as my expectation of all shooters. I would refer you back to the concept that an armed society is a polite society and ask that you all embrace the code of honor and chivalry that prevailed during the era in which your sport developed.

I have asked Ken to allow me to take over this forum personally. Please understand my expectations as written above and know that if it becomes necessary to discipline people for their actions, my intent is to discipline all involved equally. I care not who starts slinging mud, if you pick up a mud ball, you too are guilty.

[9.3X62AL]

In the interest of clarity, I currently have BPCR loads in 32-20, 44-40, and 45-70 that I fire frequently, and paper-patched loads in 9.3 x 62 and 303 British get some range time too.

So, it isn't a matter of unfamiliarity with or disinterest in the venues--not at all. What I was expressing earlier was utter disgust with the belligerent, demeaning tone that a few habitues of these forum sections seem to require engagement in to communicate effectively with one another. THAT was the rationale behind the desire to close the sections, and nothing else. I would certainly miss the information that flows politely much of the time here, but the fact remains that obnoxious dialogue is like a tagger crew in the Sistine Chapel--disruptive, ugly, and destructive. People sharp enough to shoot in these esoteric venues are smart enough to communicate politely and civilly--obnoxious behavior is therefor a CHOICE, and one that is unacceptable anywhere on this board. If your needs dictate that you communicate in rough or rude fashion with one another, may I respectfully suggest that you start your own forum(s) that cater to coarser courses of conduct?

[Buckshot]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree...............
In my shooting with my rilfe I have not found that to be so, because..................
I tried it that way, and for me it never seemed to work............
I tried it that way , and it seems that (so & so) is easier for me...............
I can appreciate your statement but my rifle just ...............
I've read that too, and tried it but my rifle..................
I see your point but this has worked well for me................
I did that too, but then I tried ..................
For those designs I've found it to work, but for these others.................
Well, each to his own. I'm glad you're having success with it, but for me................

............I believe any of the above would work better then, "You're wrong you moron". :-) Or similar words to that effect.

.............Buckshot

[45 2.1]

This is the "Paper Patching" forum. Just because you can use patched boolits in a BP rifle doesn't have much to do with this forum. Its about paper patched boolits.

As far as nipping the tails, I twist the tail, let the body dry somewhat with the tail still damp, nip with altered sidecutters and place the base on a flat surface and twist in the direction of the folds. This makes a nice flat base. If you don't nip the tail, it can imprint into the base of the boolit when fired and leave a good depression causing some accuracy problems.

[wiljen]

This is the "Paper Patching" forum. Just because you can use patched boolits in a BP rifle doesn't have much to do with this forum. Its about paper patched boolits.


Is the assumption here that people are having others patch the bullets for them? How else would you use patched boolits in a rifle without patching them to do so? I am not aware of any sellers marketing patched boolits and would be interested in such if they are out there.

[45 2.1]

I am not aware of any sellers marketing patched boolits and would be interested in such if they are out there.

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page7.html

[BrentD]

Montana Precision Swaging used to sell patched bullets and they may still do so - I don't know. If they patched some of their .440" bullets, I suspect they may be very close to bore diameter. For those that like groove diameter, I know they used to patche .450" bullets to .458-.460 or so.

MPS used to sell bullets direct, via Buffaloarms.com and via Cabelas, but I'm not sure that they sold patched bullets in all those venues

Brent

[Bullshop]

We sell patched boolits.
Blessings
bic/bs

[wiljen]

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize that was an option and will have to look into that for the 45-70. I'll admit to trying patching my own but found out I didn't particularly have the skill or the patience for it.

[montana_charlie]

This is the "Paper Patching" forum. Just because you can use patched boolits in a BP rifle doesn't have much to do with this forum. Its about paper patched boolits.
I am about to use the word 'serious'.

BrentD used it earlier, and (unexpectedly) elicited a reply which started the rancor that has invaded the thread.
My use of the word is not intended to imply that any particular thread contributor is not serious about paper patching bullets...but is a descriptive term which indicates a dedication to wringing the best possible performance from a rifle. The pursuit of that may involve paper patched bullets, and would be carried forward with the same attention to detail used for other projectile choices.
The person would obtain at least one mould cut to produce a smooth-sided bullet; would accumulate a selection of papers and specialized tools; and may even modify the chamber of the rifle in question. These would be indicators of a 'serious' paper patcher.

The statement I quoted above seems to be a reversal of the 'norm' for paper patching discussions. It appears to me that 'serious' paper patchers are (primarily) those who DO use the method for loading BPCR cartridges...even if some of those prefer to use smokeless propellants.
I find myself smiling in wonder when reading about 'experimentors' wrapping paper around grease grooved bullets or .22 caliber bullets...or trying to find a paper patch that will survive the rigors of a magazine.

I followed the link to Montana Bullet Works and found that they only patch bullets larger than .38 caliber. Even the venerable old .38-55 does not seem to qualify (in their minds) as suitable for paper patching.
Considering that as one indication...and the majority of other paper patching discussions around the net...I would say that while paper CAN be wrapped around any bullet, it is the BPCR chamberings that are most commonly in use by paper patchers.

From that perspective, I would say that "just because you can use patched boolits in a BP rifle" has a lot to do with this forum...but not to the exclusion of other applications.


If you don't nip the tail, it can imprint into the base of the boolit when fired and leave a good depression causing some accuracy problems.
Having yet to wrap my first bullet, this statement sounds so logical to me that I will never even try twisting tails.

CM

[45 2.1]

My use of the word is not intended to imply that any particular thread contributor is not serious about paper patching bullets...but is a descriptive term which indicates a dedication to wringing the best possible performance from a rifle. The pursuit of that may involve paper patched bullets, and would be carried forward with the same attention to detail used for other projectile choices.
The person would obtain at least one mould cut to produce a smooth-sided bullet; would accumulate a selection of papers and specialized tools; and may even modify the chamber of the rifle in question. These would be indicators of a 'serious' paper patcher.
CM

Charlie-
Serious? If you were you would have tried everything from 22 caliber to 12 gauge slugs. No large caliber 10, 8 or 4 bore rifles around here unfortunately. Paper patch can and will excede the best of most everything not posted by me and a couple of other fellows here, IF you know how it wants to be shot, blackpowder and smokeless. I haven't got to try several things yet, from lack of being able to obtain original banknote paper used in the original cartridges. You asked me one time about what group size would get my interest if you remember. I said 1/2 MOA which my 1895 will do with a smokeless 45-90 ballistics paper patched load will do. That is about the limit I have gotten paper patch to do in conventional rifles, which includes BPCR rifles, blackpowder and smokeless loads. I'm sure that i'm not the only experimenter that has been able to do this either. Naked boolits will shoot better groups than that...........

[leftiye]

CM, Serious aside, I had to applaud 45 2.1's first statement (#39). This forum is about paper patching, not about black powder. This even though everything you said is probably accurate and correct.

In between some of us getting into a personality assassination contest earlier, some of us also had some gastric distress about being relegated to purgatory (or worse) because we weren't BP(and/or BPCR) shooters.

[montana_charlie]

some of us also had some gastric distress about being relegated to purgatory (or worse) because we weren't BP(and/or BPCR) shooters.
Well leftiye, you'd have to admit that it wasn't me who sent you to purgatory.
I don't say very much in this P/P section because most of the discussions are of the type that you alude to...non-BPCR applications.
I had not even read this thread until this morning, and finally did only because it's long life sparked my curiosity.

As for being serious, I already admitted I haven't wrapped one yet. But, I am slowly working up to it...

CM

[leftiye]

CM, All's cool. More something I had to say than something to be said to you. As I said, I actually think everything you said was correct. I just happen to be interested in paper patching, and not interested in black powder. If someone else happens to like black powder, that's okay with me.

[docone31]

In response to my own thread.
I went to the range and fired my patched loads.
20 had the tails cut. 20 did not. The 20 with cut tails had gas checks. The 20 that had tails did not. Same casting. Sized .308, with two wraps of Meade Tracing Paper.
I did not notice a difference in shot placement between the two. Mind you, I am happy with 2" groups.
I did have some unwrapping when I loaded the patches. I am going to try to find some wetting agent that won't stick when fired. I had read sodium bicarbonate helps.
I put the patches on soaking wet, and roll them in a cigarette roller. Real tight wraps. The water squeeges off during wrapping. All in all, a pretty easy of wrapping.