Is 9mm Luger another high pressure round that should not shoot Cast?

[DonMountain]

After shooting cast projectiles for the last 30 years or so, I have come to the conclusion that there are certain calibers that do not operate well with cast lead bullets. All of the high pressure "magnum" rifles of smaller calibers seem to fit into this category, like .223 Remington, .243, 7mm Mag, 6.5 Swedish Mauser and 300 Win Mag. Although I "play" with much reduced velocities of cast bullets in these calibers just to see what I can do. My question is, there has been much discussion here about cast lead bullets in the 9mm Luger pistol and all the "problems" it presents. Is this another one of those that should only be used with jacketed bullets for best performance? Particularly if used for a self defense carry pistol? :roll:

[tazman]

My 9mm pistols shoot cast boolits just fine. I have 4 semi-autos and 1 revolver in 9mm and all shoot cast well with no issues.
It is all boolit selection and sizing.
I will grant that jacketed bullets give slightly better groups but not by a lot.
357 mag revolvers operate at roughly the same pressure that the 9mm does and lead works fine there also.

[reddog81]

I've found it harder to work out all the details with higher pressure rounds, but it is doable. For 9mm I usually stick with loads around the 25,000 PSI level as opposed to ones above 30,000. In general 9mm is one of the more finicky rounds and just about every other common handgun round is easier to load.

[dragon813gt]

Don't tell my 9s, or the AR15s, they they aren't supposed to shoot cast. I don't want them to know that fact. They are harder to work w/ but it's called "load development" for a reason. If I wanted to strictly follow a "recipe" I would only shoot jacketed.

[Reddirt62]

My nines eat cast all day long...nom,nom!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[DerekP Houston]

Caveat, I don't own a glock.

My 9mm pistols and carbines have been running fine with PC 9mm RN design from MP. I load standard 124gr"ish", not anything super long like the 147gr. I've also had success taking my hitek coated rounds with an additional layer of BLL on top with no leading. I size to .356, though I may hone my sizer out to .357 for a bit more accuracy.

Guns used:
LC9s pro
Beretta PX4 full size
Beretta CX4 carbine
Walther PPQ m2

I did have leading when I first started casting for it and have had to tweak my alloy and use a 38SW expander. For carry rounds I still use TMJ/Plated rounds as I've found loading and unloading the same rounds repeatedly dings up the front of my rounds.

[merlin101]

Gee, I must be lucky or something. I started loading 9mm way before I started casting, some of the store bought shot good some were pretty good. Rarely had a problem with leading, now I have 4 9mm handguns and 1 carbine all but one fires lead. The one odd ball is my Keltec and I don't shoot that much at all.

[Grmps]

9MM not so much a casting problem it's a tapered case issue. People have a tendency to over crimp with a factory crimp die and under size the boolit in the last step of loading. running an undersized cast boolit through any caliber is a problem.

Get the crimp just hard enough to hold the boolit and not downsize it.

The harder the lead the less problem this is.

I size and crimp in one die than have the Lee factory crimp die barely "kiss" the cartridge to ensure proper chambering.
I consistently get the size I'm looking for.

Pull a couple boolits to make sure you're not downsizing them.

For the higher speed boolits it a matter of both fit and alloy to get a boolit hard and elastomeric enough to withstand the centrifugal force and not self distruct. Many have had success aloying copper and pushing the boolits over 3000 fps

[gwpercle]

I've had success with four different 9 mm pistols. The easiest is a WWII Walther P-38 a compact Springfield gave the most trouble....it has almost no throat. But I worked it out.
A NOE mould for a 124 grain truncated cone gas checked boolit solved any leading problems even with a rather soft alloy. I use a 50-50 mix of COWW and lead, air cooled. Works like a charm.
I did have fits getting the seating depth right for the compact one and tried a few lighter powder charges before I got reliable functioning without battering the old P-38 but after that all is good.
Gary

[fredj338]

About all I shoot in my 9mm are cast for practice. I want good expansion in a SD bullet but if I had to, I could make a decent LHP work too. Coated would work even better.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/136hp-1050.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/136hp-1050.jpg.html)

[DonMountain]

Are there no gas checked bullet molds for the 9mm Luger?

[sundog]

Are there no gas checked bullet molds for the 9mm Luger?

Ranch Dog 358-135-RF (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC357135RF/bullet/sketch.jpg) if you can find one. It's a dandy.

[Devon]

Are there no gas checked bullet molds for the 9mm Luger?

NOE has several options in stock.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34_256&products_id=2019&osCsid=7eue31d2gghgltc3auargn5i82

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=34_256&osCsid=7eue31d2gghgltc3auargn5i82

[fredj338]

Are there no gas checked bullet molds for the 9mm Luger?
Yes, several makers do gc, but IMO, adding a gc is just adding cost & complication for most handgun needs. I can run plain base to 1400fps w/ little to no leading. For most service calibers, you aren't going much past 1100fps or so, no gc needed. I have had the gc taken off several of my molds & would like to remove it from a couple more.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I have sent coated cast down the bore of my USPSA race guns pushing 1500fps and according to Quickload, in the ballpark of 40,000psi and they perform just dandy. I have done cast/lubed through other 9mm's at much less ridiculous performance numbers but not slouching either, those did just fine too. The big ticket is fit as always and just enough crimp to take the mouth flare/belling of the case down to flush and only a miniscule more if needed. Same applies to plated bullets. Too much will size it down or cut through plating or coatings and give it a place to fail.

[runfiverun]

good lord I hope you can shoot 9mm with cast, I just loaded 10,000 of the damn things.
next your gonna tell me I gotta tear down all those 223's and 40 S&W's I got loaded and only shot half of them.

[kens]

Not sure here about the question,
Are you asking if 9mm is difficult to feed properly?
Difficult to shoot accurately?
Difficult to prevent leading?
As far as the rifle calibers you mentioned above, most all of them are fast twist off the shelf. Cast rifle bullets work better in slower twist barrels.

[dragon813gt]

next your gonna tell me I gotta tear down all those 223's and 40 S&W's I got loaded and only shot half of them.
Uh oh.....you can't shoot cast in a 40 S&W. That means I'm gonna have to pull down all the 10mm rounds I have loaded w/ 800-X. If cast cant be shot in the 40 Short & Weak then it definitely can't be shot in the real deal cartridge [emoji23]

[Eddie17]

All my 9mm's, only shoot cast. And shoot very well!

[jmort]

At 35k psi the 9mm can be shot with a gas check as per the Ranch Dog designs or sans gascheck as is common. I find a gas check on the 9mm to be beneficial. So, do what works for you. Regardless, I have a lot of 9mm handguns and carbines and I mostly shoot cast. Not sure there is any caliber that will not shoot cast bullets just fine.

[GhostHawk]

I currently load cast for 3 9mm firearms. A Custom made stub barrel for my Handi Rifle single shot. A Hipoint C9 pistol, and a Hipoint 9mm Carbine. (and another in .40sw)

Just like everything else, bullet fit is king.
When you get the bullet big enough yet it will chamber then you start playing with the other variables.

Mine tend to be mostly loaded with Red Dot, from 3 grains to 4.5 depending on which gun they are intended for. They are loaded up in 100 round MTM boxes and the load is on the box.

In the case of my Hipoint C9 pistol cast .3595-.360 lead was more accurate than Federal FMJ factory loads by at least an inch at 20 feet.

But I will admit I don't always push for max speed either.
The 4-4.5 gr loads of Red Dot are quite comfortable in the Hipoint Carbine or the single shot. But are a bit snappy for my taste in the pistol.

Why make my own ammo if I can not adjust it so that it makes a perfect fit to my needs.

I tend not to chase the whole speed thing. That's a young man's game.
I do like perfect function without issues, and accuracy is always nice.
And it has been my experience that true accuracy and speed seldom go hand in hand.

More like opposite ends of the teeter totter. You raise one you lower the other.

Its all about balance, and where you are sitting on the board.

[Bzcraig]

Ranch Dog 358-135-RF (http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC357135RF/bullet/sketch.jpg) if you can find one. It's a dandy.

It is indeed and the only mold I have for mine, it's that good! I recently had the lube grooves removed, upped the weight to 142 and still shoots wonderfully.


NOE has several options in stock.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=34_256&products_id=2019&osCsid=7eue31d2gghgltc3auargn5i82

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=34_256&osCsid=7eue31d2gghgltc3auargn5i82


All my 9mm's, only shoot cast. And shoot very well!

Yup and yup

[jmort]

^^^ That is a masterstoke design. I have one from NOE and one from Accurate. Every Ranch Dog mold I have is a beautiful thing. It has been tested and proven on hogs. It works real good.

[Kosh75287]

I like the looks of the 135gr. FP, but I'm having good success with s 125gr. cast FP & 5.8-6.2/Herco. The same load with a 124/125gr. J-word projectile shoots about as well, but not any better.

[Petrol & Powder]

My problem with 9mm isn't that it's incapable with cast bullets but rather the barrels are inconsistent. You have to match the cartridge to the gun and 9mm pistols are ALL over the map in my experience.

So, while I can and have made 9mm cartridges with cast bullets that shoot just fine in a particular 9mm pistol; I find it difficult to create a cast bullet 9mm load that shoots well in more than one pistol.

I have multiple pistols chambered in 9mm and I have made loads that shoot well in individual pistols but it's just not worth the logistics headache to maintain multiple setups for multiple cast bullet 9mm loadings. Different alloys, different sizing dies, different seating depths, different crimps, blah, blah, blah....

So I picked one 9mm pistol that liked cast bullets and created ONE cast bullet load that works well in that one pistol.

Could I make multiple loads for multiple pistols ? - Sure, but I don't wish to do so.
And BTW, the one pistol that was the easiest to load cast bullets for turned out to be a Beretta 92. Nice sharp rifling, generous chamber, no issues with feeding.

Now, with 38 Special it was a breeze to find loads that would function beautifully in several revolvers. Some cartridges are clearly a little more "cast bullet friendly" than others.

[Michael J. Spangler]

9MM not so much a casting problem it's a tapered case issue. People have a tendency to over crimp with a factory crimp die and under size the boolit in the last step of loading. running an undersized cast boolit through any caliber is a problem.

Get the crimp just hard enough to hold the boolit and not downsize it.

The harder the lead the less problem this is.

I size and crimp in one die than have the Lee factory crimp die barely "kiss" the cartridge to ensure proper chambering.
I consistently get the size I'm looking for.

Pull a couple boolits to make sure you're not downsizing them.

For the higher speed boolits it a matter of both fit and alloy to get a boolit hard and elastomeric enough to withstand the centrifugal force and not self distruct. Many have had success aloying copper and pushing the boolits over 3000 fps

This is the best advice here. Do not squish your bhllets down with a crimp. Use hard enough lead to keep the bullet from being squished by the beck tension on that tapered case.
Solved all issues for Ken.

[fivefang]

Don Mountain, yes there are several GC Molds available, I use the Beverage Can GC's on my #383 Saeco 140 gr.# 356402 Lyman 120 gr. also on my Lee 356-124, for about 50 Yrs. I have shot them without GC & had just minor leading problems & I do like to stay close to 35K pressure wise I also have a NOE 4-Cav. 2 GC, 2 PB, my favorite is the 383 Saeco, Fivefang

[Kosh75287]

So, while I can and have made 9mm cartridges with cast bullets that shoot just fine in a particular 9mm pistol; I find it difficult to create a cast bullet 9mm load that shoots well in more than one pistol. I guess part of the dilemma lies in what level of accuracy and function you're seeking. I've found the "5.8-6.2/Herco/124-124gr.AnyBulletType" works pretty well in almost a dozen 9x19mm firearms, from P-35s to Berettas to High Point Carbines to CZs, etc., etc. What kind of groups are you looking for, as a criterion for an acceptable combination? I HAVE noticed that certain pistols seem to like LRNs better than LRNFPs or the converse, or JHPs better than JSPs, etc.

[tazman]

I use 2 different boolits for the majority of my 9mm shooting. The NOE 358 135 FP and the Lyman 356402. I have other molds that work well but I just like the way these perform.
I use these two in all my 9mm handguns and they shoot well and feed well in all of them.
I have a Beretta 92(which will eat and function with almost anything), a Taurus 92, a Springfield Range Officer in 9mm, and a S&W 929 eight shot revolver.
The design of the boolits I use doesn't put the base of the boolit deep enough into the case for it to be in harm's way. This allows me to use plain range scrap(water quenched from the mold) for all the boolits without worry about swaging the base. If I size these at all, I size to .358. They all feed with no issues in my pistols, none of which have been modified in any way.
Most of the semi autos like loads on the hotter side, somewhere near max or just below. The revolver doesn't care what powder charge you run through it.

[winelover]

Four 9mm pistols, here.....HP, Nano, Sig 320 compact and SA Mod 2 Sub Compact. Use three different style cast bullets......RCBS 125 RN GC (first acquisition), Lyman 120 TC PB, NOE 115 RF PB with HP option. All feed and function with the same load and any of the above bullets, zero leading. No specific load, tailored for each gun. Use RCBS carbide dies and their optional taper crimp die. Ran the 125 RN GC for many years, before I got tired of buying and installing gas checks.

Winelover

[Forrest r]

The majority of issues with the 9mm/cast bullet combo come from the factory expanders that come with the 9mm die sets. You want an expander that is long enough to expand the cases deep enough to protect the base of the bullet from being swaged down in the 9mm cases.

Over crimping is 1 thing. Swaging the bullets bases down is just as bad if not worse.
https://i.imgur.com/FRwVBdq.jpg

A factory lyman m-die in cut-a-way cases.
https://i.imgur.com/arq5Wpx.jpg

Some casters have issues with softer lead and they bump up the alloy (make it harder) and the issues go away. Namely stop the bullets from being swaged down in the cases.

I bought a mihec 125gr mold for the 9mm. I really like that bullet so I made that custom expander pictured above specifically for that bullet/seating depth. Using nothing more than +/- 9bhn alloy and pc'ing the cast bullets I have no problem loading 1050fps loads for a 3.6" bbl'd taurus pt111 g2. The loads aren't in p+ territory but they are on the hot side.
https://i.imgur.com/ZxGtzF4.jpg

Same bullet/expander combo used is a 1911 for target loads (27,000psi/1100fps).
https://i.imgur.com/a8fXZPh.jpg

A 10-shot group group with the 9bhn/1100fps/9mm loads. This is not a hand picked/cherry picked target by any means. It's nothing more than the target I used to test that 5.0gr/wst load.
https://i.imgur.com/Zi6ljnv.jpg

There's casters/reloaders on this website that have forgotten more than I known. When they say "Heck Ya" to reloading cast bullets in the 9mm's. They know what they're talking about.

I only wish I had the lead these guys burn up in 1 week shooting their 9mm's, I be set for life with casting lead.

[Lloyd Smale]

other then carry all my 9mm handguns and my ar15 see nothing but cast. Couldn't afford to shoot them any other way and the 9mm is about as fun to shoot as it gets. I shoot 1000s of rounds of cast every year out of them.

[FISH4BUGS]

After shooting cast projectiles for the last 30 years or so, I have come to the conclusion that there are certain calibers that do not operate well with cast lead bullets. All of the high pressure "magnum" rifles of smaller calibers seem to fit into this category, like .223 Remington, .243, 7mm Mag, 6.5 Swedish Mauser and 300 Win Mag. Although I "play" with much reduced velocities of cast bullets in these calibers just to see what I can do. My question is, there has been much discussion here about cast lead bullets in the 9mm Luger pistol and all the "problems" it presents. Is this another one of those that should only be used with jacketed bullets for best performance? Particularly if used for a self defense carry pistol? :roll:

That is almost all I shoot in my 9mm guns....including 4 machine guns. The only FMJ's are the 147gr subsonic loads. I don't like to put lead through any of the suppressors.
I would suggest using factory ammo for carry and cast for practice.
Oh....my mould? 6 cavity H&G #331

[lightman]

I've shot lots of 9mm cast in my pistols. Mostly Browning, Sig and Walter. It seems to be more work in a 9mm to find a good load than other calibers. I've also noticed more variations, and issues, with the different 9mm brass. Cast is definitely doable.

[bpatterson84]

I'd say that 9mm did take me longer than usual to figure out. PC fixes most things, after that really only had to work out depth/crimp nuances and figuring out the propellant type/amount.

[MT Gianni]

I believe that most of the cartridges listed by the OP are failures by some due to lube, fit, alloy and pressure. Yes top ends happen best with the 223 & 243 with jacketed. That doesn't mean you can't be happy with 75% loads. With handguns it becomes an advanced course to get full 100% but it is attainable rather easily.

[fecmech]

The majority of issues with the 9mm/cast bullet combo come from the factory expanders that come with the 9mm die sets
Amen to that! I never could figure out what all the fuss over 9MM's was as I never had any trouble with them. The light went on one day, I use an M die when I load on the turret and my CH Auto Champ expander is just like the M die. I wasn't some super knowledgeable reloader, I was just lucky in my choice of tools.

[Elkins45]

Lots of good advice in this thread. To summarize:

Cast your bullets hard enough they don't swage down when loaded.

Make sure you aren't sizing them too small for the bore.

Use a case expander that goes deeper than just belling the case mouth.

As long as you do all those things you stand a good chance of success.

[bob208]

I load and shoot two 9mm luger pistols three 9mm largo one destroyer carbine. all with the same 124 gr rcbs tc bullet. no leading or other problems at all. I use standard dies nothing special.

[DougGuy]

I will offer this as well a all the other expert advice here. *IF* and I say IF you can look in your barrel, and don't see much freebore, or NO freebore, and the rifling runs right down to the mouth of the chamber itself, then there really isn't any room in the barrel for the boolit!

The best accuracy out of a handload comes with the boolit seated into the throat in the barrel where the freebore is pretty snug and there isn't a lot of room in there so the boolit has no choice but to be guided straight and squarely into the leade ins to the rifling. This is how it SHOULD be, this is how SAAMI spec'd the 9mm chamber but in reality, not very many 9mm auto pistols are throated properly for jacketed ammo let alone cast boolits.

So among all the discussion about boolit seaters and custom expander plugs, and which kind of crimp die to use, is the bottom line and that is boolit fitment. Don't overlook the throat in the barrel as fitment here is equally as important as anywhere else. Many times once properly throated, you can seat out long enough that your boolit is not running into the web of the case at the bottom, you have more room for powder, generally less pressure is developed with a longer COA, and the throat is a nice lengthened gradual approach to the rifling which distorts the boolit the least amount along it's path to the muzzle. Plus longer COA will in most cases feed much better than short COA.

[GONRA]

GONRA has 3 dozen 9mm Parabellums in my Junque Pyle.
For decades, reloaded nothing but CAST 115 grain and 125 grain lead bullets in these.

Remember - am "just plinking with collector items without beating 'em up" here -
not concerned with "terminal performance".
This goes for all semiauto pistols (.25 ACP and up) I have.

[bobthenailer]

Are there no gas checked bullet molds for the 9mm Luger?

I have a RCBS 2 cavity 124 gr gc ( NFS )

[happie2shoot]

This is my go to boolit for the 9mm, it falls from the mold
at 131gr, it works great in every 9mm I own, it falls at
.361 so I can fit it to any 9mm or 357.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690306/6-cavity-mold-358-125-rf

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690574/double-cavity-mould-358-125-rf

Have shot it in a six inch 357 sig at 1670fps, it had a free check,
also had HF red and LBT blue lube on it.

In the 9mm I usually use HS-6 powder and push it to 1240fps
in the four inch barrels, that also goes around 1350 fps in my
6.5'' BH, have five BHs that shoot 9mm.

In the BH, have got under 1.5'' at 30 yards, it has a lot of jump
in that long cylinder.

[alamogunr]

Just found this thread and read every post. Very interesting especially since I have gotten interested in the last few months in reloading cast for the 9mm. My original intent was to load the Lee 105gr SWC. It should work in a couple of Sigs, one of which has had Doug Guy's magic performed on it. When I inquired about the two S&W Shields(one for son & DIL),he told me the barrels were too hard on tooling(reamers).

I loaded some of the 105's over 4 gr of Red Dot. They had to be seated so the top driving band was even with the mouth of the brass so would pass plunk test. This compacted the powder some and was very short OAL. Shot OK but was sort of snappy and the short length didn't lend itself to feeding. Looking at a couple of NOE molds that have been featured this week. Will definitely back off on Red Dot and also try other powders. This thread definitely bookmarked.

[HeavyMetal]

The 9mm seems to give a lot of people problems, I've read a bunch of similar threads posted over the years and usually I make the same statement about loading for a 9mm.

Find a copy of Ken Waters 9mm pet loads second issue, in it he covers most of the reasons the 9mm give shooters problem, google can be your friend here and I suggest you read carefully several different paragraphs which will help you when you start loading the 9mm.

First paragraph deals with can length, Ken found a .020 difference in length in one factory box of 9mm ammo, this can play havoc with expanding case mouths for cast boolits, the second paragraph deal with can capacity which can vary a lot for maker to maker.

up shot of his article is try to use same brand case's, guess we'd all like to drop a couple hundred on new Starline brass but that doesn't alway work for everyone, LOL!

Be aware of case length issues, try to always get the cases with in a few thousandths of an inch, which means trimming but you only need to do it once most of the time ( mostly cause the darn thing throw brass everywhere) but you may need to pay more attention to 9mm cases than most others.

search for Kens 9mm articles, he wrote two the update or second article has the info you really need, and decide for yourself if you want to reload for the 9mm.

By the way Ken has some good loads listed some very accurate out to 50 yards in the updated article.

HM

[asmith80]

Just found this thread and read every post. Very interesting especially since I have gotten interested in the last few months in reloading cast for the 9mm. My original intent was to load the Lee 105gr SWC. It should work in a couple of Sigs, one of which has had Doug Guy's magic performed on it. When I inquired about the two S&W Shields(one for son & DIL),he told me the barrels were too hard on tooling(reamers).

I loaded some of the 105's over 4 gr of Red Dot. They had to be seated so the top driving band was even with the mouth of the brass so would pass plunk test. This compacted the powder some and was very short OAL. Shot OK but was sort of snappy and the short length didn't lend itself to feeding. Looking at a couple of NOE molds that have been featured this week. Will definitely back off on Red Dot and also try other powders. This thread definitely bookmarked.

Not sure what equipment you're using to load your 9mm with, but if you've got a Lee powder thru expander die, and are having to load short to plunk, you may want to look into getting a 38 S&W plug to replace the stock 9mm one. It'll expand the brass deeper than the stock plug, so you have less chance of accidentally swaging down your boolits when you seat.

I've used the NOE 358-135 FN to good success, since you're in the market for a new mold. I really like the Accurate 35-130Z since I Hi-Tek coat. I don't have to worry about running into the lube groove when I seat them long.

[popper]

35-135S HiTek, 357 & WST - probably 30K psi. AC Isocore. XDS9. No leading, accurate & fast repeat shots.

[Engieman]

I have five 9's now, and few more prior to selling a couple...and all I ever shoot is cast. Going on 35 plus years now. Home cast with range lead, purchased cast via the various dealers, Hi-Tech, lubed lead, powder coated, I shoot them all with no issues. I don't shoot plus +P, but I do shoot at the higher end of things for clean burning. Shoot away

[Engieman]

Oh, and let me add that I am a Bullseye/accuracy shooter, no action events where I'm spraying shotgun pattern lead as fast as I can