PDA

View Full Version : Honchos Only



Oldfeller
11-16-2005, 05:51 PM
Honchos Only

If you are holding a completed order for the first of the year, please PM me.

(only those Honchos with over 25 checks on hand)

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
11-17-2005, 06:01 PM
I am now in a position to attempt to cost broker our finished Honcho orders at a discount. Fine details (like who pays for bulk shipping, taxes etc.) have not shown their true colors yet, but will be known after the first fully completed transaction. Bear with me, this is newly invented ground and these type of incidental order placement costs will be passed on to me -- (I ate them last time because I had no clue they existed until after I had shipped my molds).

First run goal cost for a custom-cut six banger mold (with shipping included) will be Honcho priced at $37 (shipped price would be $43)

To reach this goal we need to accumulate 25 mold orders per design as a minimum requirement. We need to accumulate entire design orders and mass them into a single order. Bonus discount is negotiated according to the size of the final quarterly brokered total order, so it VARIES from quarter to quarter according to how many molds it finally stacks up to be.

Example: I take a check from a Honcho (who took in $56 bucks a mold because that was how things were when he started) for $37 a mold. (he has to charge shipping which brings it up to $43) I accumulate all the Honcho checks and drawings for the quarter and make a single brokered order once a quarter, cutting the best deal I can off the total quantity of molds accumulated.

When I ship the molds, I include a rebate check which evens the Honcho back up for the entire group discount price (whatever lower it wound up actually being based off of total $$$).

The Honcho evens up the members by sending little rebate checks back with their individual mold shipments. (sorry, how else are you going to give them back the $13 bucks I got for us already?)

When we do this a time or two (and I see how it goes in reality) a few more bucks may come off the $37 Honcho price based on some increased quarterly total quantities.

We will also know a better "fixed price" by then, so the rebate checks can stop too. If the quantities could go up to around 200 per quarter AND STAY STEADY, then some additional discounting is possible and that would be passed on as well. By doing it quarterly, 200 molds is very possible as they will be somewhat cheaper yet and even more people will want to play at that lower cost per six banger custom mold.

Now, some SIGNIFICANT downsides ....

LEE Jr. or Pat could stop this deal or screw it up if they wanted to. That's one reason to hold on to some extra funds until the order is on physically hand and all charges have been settled. "Miscellaneous Order placement" costs that come in after the fact really suck -- but I have seen them before out of this same daisy chain of characters.

LEE screw ups on individual molds would become "remote" to me -- the Honchos would still have to notice them and then the no-win fun starts. How do you get LEE to make good on their screw-ups when buying through a daisy chain? Answer -- customer service.

Some of Pat's famous words about past drawings still rings in my ears "Your 45 degree call out did not say it was an included angle, so we cut it at 45 degrees to the machine motion" or his famous "Your drawing tolerances do not over-ride LEE standard tolerancing as shown on our general order specifications sheet -- this is not a print non-conformance issue to us". And the very best one "We didn't sell that order to you and the people placing the order for that mold had no special requirements placed on that mold whatsoever."

In short, the more remote you are in the daisy chain the more screwed you are. Thus, the drawing HAS to carry the total requirement message very clearly and the Honcho and the buying group will have to fight out the drawing screw ups with LEE as a general "customer service" issue.

This arrangement is NOT PERFECT -- it has risks. LEE can still screw up an entire order and blow everybody off if they choose to. At least I can make sure your drawing will be up to snuff so you can go back to LEE and I think it would be a good thing for Honchos to ship a copy of the drawing along with the molds so folks would have their ammunition on hand should they have to load and fire that customer service bullet.

But it does save us $19 bucks a mold.

With possibly more discount later on as the order numbers increase and we gain credibility and a comfort level with the middle man (who currently has lots of reservations himself and is "going out on a limb" somewhat in his own eyes in doing this much).

And please, don't waste everybody's time playing "guess who" -- you could guess real accurately by looking at a discounted list price sheet but I am not ever going to tell you until I am allowed to tell you (I promised not to cause the man any trouble with his boss -- I sure hope I can keep that promise ...... right guys?)

What do you think? It HAS risks and we need to talk them out.

Oldfeller

felix
11-17-2005, 06:17 PM
Looks like rebate checks are the only way to go. Every one should anti up more green than the total cost of the order to cover these wild excursions at the box office (Home of last honcho in line). ... felix

Oldfeller
11-17-2005, 06:56 PM
To give the Honchos that placed orders "pre-deal" a chance to gracefully & cleanly finish out all their existing stuff ordered directly under the old LEE rules, the first quarterly broker order will take place on December 15th.

Sorry for the inconvenience for the orders placed directly with LEE before today (I am part of two, so I participate in that inconvenience as well).

If some Honchos feel a strong group need to order before Dec. 15th and are willing to take a lesser volume discount, well -- I can ask. PM me if you feel like you are tending this way because of group pressure to "go ahead and get the molds". You won't have any great big volume to base a really strong discount on, but you will get something off I am sure.

Oldfeller

mike in co
11-17-2005, 08:48 PM
not to throw a curve...but is it possile the new middle man can obtain a significant discount on bult orders of 6pack handles ??

Willbird
11-17-2005, 10:14 PM
Well I sent our 454-275 in already. The last order that went in with a hi-lighted print Pat called to say they wouldnt hold the tolerance, Talked to Doug, he talked to Pat, they held the tolerance. This order I just put in the cover letter "Talk to Doug, he can hold the tolerence" . The day Pat crawled under Lee's desk to get his job things took a turn for the worst.

Bill

Oldfeller
11-18-2005, 07:37 AM
Mike, handles might be added on to a mass order and might get some form of discount. I will check into it closer when that time comes. Until then, we need to get organized and come up with a successful first buy to prove out the system before adding on too many bells and whistles.

Oldfeller

Willbird
11-18-2005, 08:26 AM
This would open up ideas for all kinds of group buys, I but other Lee 6 cavity when I need them. Other guys buy lots of Lee stuff.

I would be in for 3-6 sets of handles, I need to look at them to see if we can make better ones.

Bill

Char-Gar
11-18-2005, 01:03 PM
Sounds like the way to go..but Lee already has the 311407 money and the molds are in production. Next time...

wills
11-18-2005, 05:09 PM
I was froogling for a low price on a Lee hand press recently and came across this site. http://www.bosesguns.com/articles.asp?id=1 It seems to carry a lot of Lee products and the thought occurred to me “How about finding an online merchant already set up to take orders, ship etc., not too large to appreciate the volume of business this group might generate?” Maybe this one could be interested in future orders.

alamogunr
12-01-2005, 12:01 AM
I was froogling for a low price on a Lee hand press recently and came across this site. http://www.bosesguns.com/articles.asp?id=1 It seems to carry a lot of Lee products and the thought occurred to me “How about finding an online merchant already set up to take orders, ship etc., not too large to appreciate the volume of business this group might generate?” Maybe this one could be interested in future orders.

Aside from the possibility of having an online co. handle group buys, the prices on handles from the above link are very good. Not sure that Lee would do as good, probably to avoid alienating their existing outlets. I'm going to place an order for several sets, as soon as the holidays are over.

kywoodwrkr
12-01-2005, 11:42 AM
Bose doesn't use sound judgement when it comes to shipping costs however.
I ran six handles through their pricing and came up with a shipping cost of almost $15($15.90 actually) for USPS priority mail.
UPS is about right($8.75) but there is the $7.70 fixed rate boxes from the USPS.
My take is if a company is in the business of shipping a lot of orders, they should stay up on saving money for their customers.
Guess it's not my boat so I don't need to worry about rowing it however.
FWIW.
DaveP

Oldfeller
12-02-2005, 06:48 PM
Please prepare a personal check written out to me (PM me if you need the address) and your drawing and a typewritten signed note saying EXACTLY how many molds you are ordering at $37 each. Send this to me to arrive by the 15th of this month or the entire order will be delayed.

One of the downsides of this ordering method is we are all somewhat used to taking late orders and fowarding them on to LEE -- we will NOT be able to do this on the brokered orders. The orders you have on hand when you cut your check and mail it to me will be it for this order.

On these orders we negotiate the very best price we can with the volume we have on hand and then we will send the man a check along with the drawings and he moves it forward to LEE, once again totally depending on the drawings to tell the entire tale of what is wanted.

Obviously I will have had to cash and clear your checks to do this ....... right?

Equally obvious, your drawings must be totally up to snuff to prevent any issues from taking place as those drawings must carry all the freight on communicating with LEE as the middle man will be told NOT to change anything nor is he to allow LEE to change anything from exactly what is on the drawing. Your tolerancing on all critical features, WW metal only notes, snap fit to Hornaday gas check notes must all be there.

You still have several days left to pull it together and your checks should hit the mail by Wednesday the 7th to give US postal grunts the proper "slowness time" to get the checks to me by the 15th.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
12-04-2005, 01:37 AM
Update on the 15th order -- we got a 30 caliber soup can that is struggling to get the orders in, we got a 7mm Soup Can drawing that has a designer saying his work was "scabbed" and we got one moderator quietly suggesting that we might delay the first brokered order until after the first of the year to let some of this settle out a bit.

Plus, money is tight and some folks are saying they would participate if it was after the first and Christmas was over.

I am "open" to a delay, tell me your feed back on the delay topic. We got one group holding a lot of orders, waiting on the rest of us, and this needs some concensus.

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
12-04-2005, 02:38 AM
I have just been publically accused of scabbing a drawing, and I really don't care for it very much. The person doing this quotes "commercial rules" and common business practices and is a professional designer who wants design control and complete secrecy of his drawings (his choice -- his call).

Let me be very clear, this is clumping together of Honcho molds is NOT a commercial enterprise. This is a coordinated group buy from a hobby group. If any of you folks think this is a commerial enterprise, you are mistaken. It is a hobby group purchase and nothing more -- it is not a business of any kind.

It also ain't no money maker, let me clue you in. Nobody has ever made a dime doing this stuff, indeed I have lost small change on every mold deal since day one. So has Jumptrap. So has Buckshot. So has Chargar. So will you. If you have any delusions on these points, I hope this clarifies it.

Your drawings and transactions will become known. Secrecy is undoable, forget it. Your drawings are going out into the public domain and they will eventually be picked up, modified by somebody else and reused.

I used to be worried about this sort of stuff, but I got over it. Some still are wrapped around the axle about it, so I am publically announcing a clear "no secrecy" policy before the first group brokered order so everybody starts out cleanly understanding exactly where we are on this topic.

=========================================

Your drawings ARE NOT A SECRET if they are part of a brokered buy. You are passing them through me (a "scabber" of those voluntarily public-posted bit graphics that were intentionally provided to the group by the designer for use in open design discussions on the list), you are passing them through at least two or three different LEE Master Distributors (any of which may "steal" your drawing ideas since it is sent to them to quote) and you are eventually giving the designs over to LEE PRECISION who has a WRITTEN POLICY that anything they custom order cut that they have ongoing rights to use the designs, in whole or in part.

=========================================

Is this clear enough?

Now, if you have been working with Bob you should realize that you have an issue to deal with. Bob expects SECRECY of his designs. You can't pass them on to me to go through this long chain of secret stealing miscreants -- you really can't.

I cannot (and won't try) to keep Bob's design secrets. And I never have agreed to do it nor will I ever agree to do it. And Bob certainly knows that, and he has offered stuff up voluntarily anyway for list use. However, some of you apparently HAVE agreed to do this secrecy stuff with Bob. It is an issue for you to deal with if you have done so.

==========================================

Now, as far as the delay to the first of next year -- it has been moderator "suggested" and it really has become needed as I for one have to replace the 7mm Soup Can drawing since it IS based on an old public bit-map drawing that was provided for group discussion that commonly referred to as El Longo (originally done by Bob and given up voluntarily by him TWICE for list use as a public bit map graphic). Nevertheless, a new CAD drawing is on the way for the 7mm Soup Can bullet, one not involved with secrecy or open to any accusations of "scabbing".

I have located a CAD designer who will voluntarily "demystify" any drawings that you unfortunately have gotten entangled with secrecy issues with your group purchase. Part of this demystification will be the correct nominals and tolerancing to prevent (in as much as such is possible) issues with LEE PRECISION, along with changing any past "secret" designer-specific details. After this is done, you will be able to talk about your drawing if you have any issues or questions and you will be able to provide drawings to your members if needed so they can defend themselves from LEE errors.

This same CAD designer can also work from a pencil on graph paper (correctly toleranced) full page sketch. The resulting CAD drawings will be title blocked to CAST BOOLITS and will be public domain drawings.

This will be a free service until folks get over this "secrecy" nonsense.


Kelly Alexander

Oldfeller
12-09-2005, 07:20 AM
Brian, the honcho over the 30 Soup Can mold buy is saying his real orders are trickling in slower than he originally anticipated and he may be ready to go by Jan-Feb time frame. He says he will be ready to go by April for sure, and is willing to wait a bit for his orders to roll in.

We have 2 mold orders I know about that are ready and waiting. Who else is out there who is ready to go right now? Once I have this information I am going to make the case to our moderators that things are calm enough to start moving forward with the ones that are ready as the next crop likely isn't going to be fully ready until the next quarterly buy.

Kelly

Oldfeller
12-10-2005, 01:00 PM
It is suggested that we wait until the 15th of January. This gives time for honchos to sort out their groups and everybody to recover from the Holidays.

Go ahead and send me your drawings along with a tenative count of how many molds you may be ordering -- there is some legwork I can do before we start cashing checks and going for it on the 15th of January.

Oldfeller

StarMetal
12-10-2005, 01:15 PM
Well crap, that sucks....that's a looooong wait. I changed my mind, I don't want in. I went out to the mailbox and pulled my check to you. I'll just have Dan make me one, sorry for all the hassle.

Joe

Oldfeller
12-10-2005, 04:52 PM
Sorry Joe, there are at least one or two of our moddyraters that 1) always have had good sense and 2) have almost always been correct in their assessment of things so, as much as I hate to say it, I'll listen to their opinion. Actually, that's how moderators really get picked around here, for those individuals who are respected enough so folks will listen to them.

I don't expect eveyone will be happy with the delay, much less a group that has been complete and ready to go for over a month already. But they can speak up for themselves, just like you did, if they wanted to. (actually, they posted a poll and the majority voted to wait for the group buy).

Oldfeller

Oldfeller
12-21-2005, 06:51 PM
The 15th of January has been suggested as group order date.

This means all the preliminary work done last month with the distributors has gone under the bridge and over the dam and also the new 2006 LEE pricing structure will be in place when we strike up the conversations with the distributors shortly before the middle of January, so I fully expect some minor changes due to the delay. What exactly, I can't tell you -- we will all have to wait and see.

Another wrinkle is that my new job has decided to send me off to a week of out of town corporate training starting Jan 22, so I hope the honcho's listen when I say "send me in your drawing and your best guess on your mold count in advance so I can try to do some of the legwork with the distributors in advance". We need to actually place the order on the 15th, not just be starting collecting it all together.

I would have preferred to lock down 2005 pricing by placing the order before the first of the year, but that is not what was recommended by the group leadership.

So we roll with the circumstances.

Oldfeller