Ballard sight.

[marlinman93]

This is a pretty strange "tang sight". It's made to mount on the tang area of a Ballard rifle, and accepts a modified Lyman receiver sight. It was on a Ballard #4 Perfection in .32-40 I once owned. I think I'll put it back on another of the same model and caliber that I own.

https://i.imgur.com/qU6YZsFl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ew8OOA1l.jpg

The receiver sight is milled with two receiver slots, and a large thumb knob to secure the sight. The back of the mount is milled with two rails that have positive stops to return the sight to zero when removed and reinstalled.

https://i.imgur.com/VtijBual.jpg

Craftsmanship is very nice, and the base appears to be a nicely finished casting that is blued. Spacing is the standard Ballard 1.125" holes. The Lyman has 125 minutes of elevation, which should be good for most mid range work.
Wonder who made them, and how many might have been made?

[ulav8r]

It may be the only one.

[country gent]

Wonder if that's a one off one of the old riflesmiths or home hobbyists came up with back in the day? Some of the radiouses appear to be hand cut or filed. On a production part a cutter and set would have been used. But it is an interesting and usable looking set up. Thanks for showing it.

[Scharfschuetze]

Quite interesting. Old aperture sights really interest me and good shooting can be done with them.

I note that the old Lyman knobs are the 4 MOA per rotation variety. I'm not sure when Lymen went to the current 3 MOA revolution thread, but it was more than a day ago.

[marlinman93]

Wonder if that's a one off one of the old riflesmiths or home hobbyists came up with back in the day? Some of the radiouses appear to be hand cut or filed. On a production part a cutter and set would have been used. But it is an interesting and usable looking set up. Thanks for showing it.

There are areas on the base that are obviously milled, and some might even be touched with a hand file, but if so a very skilled person with a file. But the bottom side of the base is lost likely a casting, or somehow hollow ground, as the 4 corners are the only part that would contact the receiver on a Ballard. A very good design idea, as it allows for any inconsistencies between base and receiver but having 4 very tiny contact points.
I see no signs of "hand" cuts, or "file" cuts, but most definitely milling machine cuts. The front and back edges of the base showing casting grainy surface that was not fully polished off, so I'm pretty sure it started as a casting.

[Bigslug]

M.M., I can always count on you to show me something neat! That right there is a fun bit of target rifle history.

One of the things that draws me to Ballards is that is was such a good target mechanism that the basic late 1850's action concept outlived its original sighting systems and remained desirable well into the age of Unertl scopes and click-adjustable peeps. If you can imagine improving a Japanese katana made in 1600 with a Hogue rubber handle. . .yeah, it's a little like that. Between a totally original unaltered Marlin and one of these multi-generational hybrids that guys like Pope or Ackley may have worked on, it's hard for me to say which is cooler. I understand the muzzle loading Whitworths had a following that might have led to something similar, if the convenience of self-contained brass rounds hadn't ended the romance. . .

[missionary5155]

Good morning
What a find ! Some fine old "craftsman" decided he did not want that big ol' elevation knob sticking out there in the air on his Ballard to snag on stuff. Happily this sight did not end up in some private "museum' where it would be forever forgotten.
Mike in Peru

[marlinman93]

I think you're right Bigslug. The Ballard rifles were often converted and reworked into specialized competition rifles, and my guess is this was used on one of the custom built target rifles done after bolt guns became popular in the 20's and 30's.
Someone competed with a Ballard in benchrest, or prone matches that required iron sights, and wanted a great sight that was easier and sturdier than the typical tang sight. I think the gun may also have been used with a scope, so the sight was made to be quickly removed, but also reinstalled without affecting the zero on the sight setting.
If I come across another Ballard that's been modified and looks like this type of competition rifle, I'll likely install this sight on it. I held it in place on various Ballard rifles I own, and it just didn't fit the era of this sight on mine. But I'm sure one will eventually pop up that needs a sight of this style some day!

[Bigslug]

Hmmm. . .a No.4 Ballard in a classic 200 yard target cartridge, with an early Lyman 57 sight. . .

Seems to me like you need a Merit iris disc screwed in place of the fixed aperture and a spirit level globe in the front. This concept intrigues me greatly. Vernier scales make my brain hurt - gimme micrometer clicks every time; period correct or no.

[marlinman93]

Hmmm. . .a No.4 Ballard in a classic 200 yard target cartridge, with an early Lyman 57 sight. . .

Seems to me like you need a Merit iris disc screwed in place of the fixed aperture and a spirit level globe in the front. This concept intrigues me greatly. Vernier scales make my brain hurt - gimme micrometer clicks every time; period correct or no.

I do have a spare Hadley that fits this sight, and would use that if it goes on one of my Ballard rifles. Probably don't need a spirit level at such short distances as 200 yds., and likely it will run out of elevation around 450 yds. in most old calibers. But a spirit level would certainly be a big help in accuracy past 200 yds.!
Almost all my old single shot Ballard and Remington rifles have vernier sights, so I'm comfortable with them. What confuses me is when I get to a modern vernier repro sight, as they use different markings than the old 1800's sight makers used. I usually have to ask somebody what their sight markings equal, and hope they actually know their sight well enough!

[BenTolson]

I know this is an old thread... but I am curious about the markings inside the slide. That's not a Lyman 57, it's a Lyman 48 sight, left side mount. interested in learning more of the heritage. Wonderful craftsmanship...

[Green Frog]

Hey Vall, did you ever find the “right” Ballard to put this sight on? It just looks way too cool to be left on a shelf or in a box somewhere.

Froggie

[marlinman93]

There are no markings on the backside of the sight. Not sure if whoever built this neat sight bought unmarked sights from Lyman, specifically for these bases they built?

No Charlie, it's still in my sight box along with many others I've collected over the years.

[Green Frog]

Que lastima! :(

[marlinman93]

Que lastima! :(

It looks good in my collection! But I think I may have found a place it wont look bad on, and since this is a .32-20, it will also have enough elevation too.

https://i.imgur.com/KYC0y6Hl.jpg

[Green Frog]

SUH-WEEET! I approve (through eyes green with envy). And that 32-20 should be perfect for 100 yd iron sight matches. You’ve got my vote, for whatever it’s worth. :mrgreen:

Froggie

[gnoahhh]

SUH-WEEET! I approve (through eyes green with envy). And that 32-20 should be perfect for 100 yd iron sight matches. You’ve got my vote, for whatever it’s worth. :mrgreen:

Froggie

Uhhh, but aren't your eyes always green?

[BenTolson]

After messaging Vall, he verified that there were matching markings inside the sight slide groove & slide back revealing that it started life as a Lyman 48 BSA (for the Martini action). Slots were then milled to match the custom base... I'm going to show this to a couple gunsmiths I know to see if they might consider duplicating it. It will be alot like building a custom car as I would never be able to get my money out of it, but it's too neat to not try. Glad to have stumbled on this thread...

[marlinman93]

I'll post a picture of a 2nd base I have that is similar, but D&T to directly bolt a Lyman receiver sight to. I'd assume a receiver sight for one of the flat sided actions would work?

https://i.imgur.com/ehSMoxul.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LzJakHLl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/YHMuO1ql.jpg

Not sure why these are coming out a little fuzzy?

[BenTolson]

That looks interesting.... I don't know of a Lyman 48 that is completely flat in the back to fit, however, a Lyman 56 just might.... I will do some digging to see if the hole spacing matches. Can you verify if the threads are 6-48?

[marlinman93]

That looks interesting.... I don't know of a Lyman 48 that is completely flat in the back to fit, however, a Lyman 56 just might.... I will do some digging to see if the hole spacing matches. Can you verify if the threads are 6-48?

Arent the Lyman sights for the Marlin and Winchester lever actions both flat on the back?

[Green Frog]

Wasn’t there a Lyman #66 sight specifically for flat sided actions (like most lever actions)? Unfortunately all of those Lyman sights are long out of production and getting harder by the day to acquire. :| :(

Froggie

[marlinman93]

Wasn’t there a Lyman #66 sight specifically for flat sided actions (like most lever actions)? Unfortunately all of those Lyman sights are long out of production and getting harder by the day to acquire. :| :(

Froggie

Yes, the 66A was for most of the Win. lever actions and the 66MB was for the Marlins. They also made the 48L for the Stevens 417, 417 1/2, 418, etc. that was flat sided. Not sure if those might not work too?
But as you say, they're all tough to find and expensive these days. A good machinist could take any of the 48, 57, or 66 sights made for round receivers like a bolt action, and mill them flat though. And those for bolt actions are far more common.

[BenTolson]

The Lyman 21 (manual windage) & 38 (adjustable windage) were the original flat side receiver sights. Lots of moving parts... They were nicknamed "climbin' Lyman's". Complete specimens can bring over $700+. Then the model 56 was introduced. It was all steel construction... had a large dial in the center to set the elevation. It was a simple, sturdy sight. Current values can run over $300. for Winchester versions. It was replaced by the 66... which started off as all steel but was soon changed to alloy. There in lies the issue... mounting an alloy sight on a steel receiver can cause alignment problems when the temperature changes.