Misfires with IMR4198, Allox Lube and Cast Bullets in 45-70 Marlin 1895's

[Glacierwolf]

I have no clue why two brand new Marlin 1895's, both stainless, one a 4 shot other a 6 shot model - are giving me so much grief with cast bullets! I have been casting since 1986 for 44mag, 357, 45acp, 480 Ruger pistol and 308 Win, 338 Win, and most recently 223 and 300 Blackout with no troubles. For rifle I lube in a plastic bag with Allox, let dry, then use the Lee Size kit, and re-Allox and let dry a few days. To prevent the finished bullet from being sticky I dust them with Mica powder. This is all old hat for me.

So, imagine my surprise when my first batch of 45-70's have 50% duds and disable both rifles with lead stuck in the barrel. Good primer strikes. One round went, 'fwoomp' and I could see the lead going down range. The lead on ones that sound like a complete misfire - I hear just a click - they have exited the case and gone a tiny bit into the lands and grooves. As if it has ignition but a failure to ignite the powder. The mess of unburnt powder from these rounds all over the receiver - sometimes comes out looking like a Rice Krispy treat and is stuck together.

Yesterday I made a batch of Hornady 250 Monolithic 45-70's. When I finished that batch I used the same batch of primed brass, powder (just a smaller charge of I-4198), and cast projectiles. Today at the range 100% of the Hornday fired fine (as expected) but after one good round of cast, the next two were duds and disabled both rifles with lead stuck in the barrels.

None of my books are calling for magnum primers with cast 45-70 300 or 400 grain. I suppose this is something I could try.
My 338 and 30 cal cast rounds - most using 4350 and A-1680 never had an issue.

Since all things are equal - and the only difference is Allox....... I am thinking Allox and 4198 do not play well together. Perhaps this is the 'big guy' telling me to try paper patching?

Any help appreciated. Any disrespectful comments about my handloading techniques will be graded on both humor and originality! I do not touch my primers, and, use a RCBS electronic scale and powder measure. So, no chance of contamination.

Thanks guys!
Glacierwolf

[Uncle R.]

If the same components (powder, primer, cases) work fine with Hornadys but give duds with cast, then the problem is definitely related to the cast boolits.

If the boolits are stuck in the rifling then the primers are firing, but the powder isn't igniting properly.

I'd guess the problem will prove to be the alox is somehow contaminating the powder, or (more likely) the bullet pull is too light.

Can you try letting the alox set up an extra week or two, and eliminating the mica?
This would likely help either of the two problems mentioned above.

Can you try a smaller expander for more neck tension?
Can you try a serious roll crimp to help resist bullet movement on primer firing?
How big is your powder charge? Would it be reasonable to use a filler to hold the powder against the primer?
(I'll defer that question to those with more experience than I have at using fillers.)

Those are the first suggestions that spring to mind.
Good luck...

Uncle R.

[Duckiller]

I would suggest it is time to buy a used luber/sizer and switch to a harder lube. Not sure where you are at but ALOX is a soft lube that melts in heat. I have switch to Carnuba Red that I got from a member/advertiser. May have to heat up a little with a cheap hair dryer, but it doesn't melt when I take ammo to the range. It definately sounds like your lube is contaminating your powder.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I never had to use filler or mag primers with the 45/70 and imr4198 and rel 7, I HATE liq. alox, so I would try conventional lube, you could put the boolits base down in a tray and pour melted lube up to cover the grooves to ry it before you buy a machine, but more likely you need a stronger crimp. let us know how it goes, good luck!!

[runfiverun]

the difference isn't just the alox.
the engraving pressure and powder amount are vastly different.
I'm going with your pressures are too low.
a filler would help.

[buckshotshoey]

My inclination is its alox related but could be too much case volume for the powder chosen. Wipe the bottom of boolit clean and dry before seating. It could be a simple matter of over lubing. It shouldnt take much alox to get the job done. If that doesn't do it, choose a powder that fills to near the base of the boolit.

I, for some reason, always cleaned all lube from bullet base before seating. Didn't know why I was doing it. Guess I just didnt like a moist lube sitting on the powder. I think i got in that habit while shooting maxi balls with Thompson's Bore Butter in warm- ish weather.

[unique]

I doubt it is alox related. Try again with powder positioned near primer. Raise barrel up lower slowly and fire. Bet problem goes away.

[swheeler]

Sounds like it's time to put some dacron filler as a powder positioner in the case.

[Kraschenbirn]

Hmmmm...never experienced anything like that with 45-70s loaded with 4198 in my 1885 Highwall or Remington RB and I pan-lube, 'as cast', with Emmert's, only swiping the boolit bases across a piece of folded paper towel to remove any excess before seating. Granted, both are single-shots but Emmert's is a much softer lube (beeswax/tallow/lanolin) with a much lower melting point than dried Alox. Also, I question any need for a 'stronger' crimp; the only crimp applied to my 45-70s is a light touch with a Lee FCD to remove any belling of the case mouth that might remain after the boolit is seated.

FWIW, I'm with Unique and Swheeler...by one method or the other, try ensuring that the powder is against the primer when the hammer drops.

Bill

[RED333]

You are getting good advice, alox is not the issue. What is your lead alloy, to soft? The Hornady 250 Monolithic is harder than lead, thus keeping the pressure up to light off the charge.

[dondiego]

I have never had dry liquid Alox cause a squib or ignition problem, but I have had problems with not enough neck tension, and powder not sitting on the primer causing ignition problems with starting loads.

[big bore 99]

Never had a problem here with that powder. In my 45-70's I put in a small ball of paste wax with the alox. Drys faster and tack free. I've moved up up paper patching now. Go easy on the alox.

[chevyiron420]

I have had the same problem with my 45/70 rolling block. I bet you have lumps of stinking powder left over after the failure to fire.

[longbow]

I didn't see what charge you are using but I am with the too low a pressure guys. If your charge is too light it may not be reaching high enough pressure to burn properly with the cast boolits. I'd be surprised if it is Alox related.

If your charge is too light a filler may help but most likely upping the charge to book minimum if you are lower than that will solve it. Otherwise, if you are running light charges, try a faster powder.

Longbow

[Lance Boyle]

It would be easy enough to crimp five and test that. Test another five settling the powder to the
Rear.

I just started with 4198 in 38-55 and have had no issues but it's noticeably smaller. No alox commercial cast bullets until I get a mold for it.

[Glacierwolf]

Thank you guys for all the advice!!

I took the exact same components and steps - only with magnum primers - and they fired perfect 10 for 10 this morning. Then I read the posts ......... really great into - and I am feeling confident the issue is the lack of tension on the lead bullet and not a heavy enough crimp. My Lyman book tells me for 300gr cast 32gr IMR-4198 is min, and, at that low of a loading the brass isn't expanding well - got some blow by. So I went to 34gr and that sealed the chamber nicely. My goal is to make a nice light training load.

Funny thing - my ex-wife, when we first moved to Kodiak Island, Alaska - I started her on a 444 Marlin with light loads and didn't have any issues like this. Of course, I was using a 44Mag back then and crimped the 444's same as the 44mag.

I am going to start with a box of nice new brass and pay closer attention to the seating tension. And go for a heavier crimp. I have a place to shoot less than a mile from home, so, should only be a few days before I come back with an update. Back in the early 80's we used to stuff Dacron in our 357 and 38 special target loads.

Something else. The Hornady Monoliths FX projectiles - the brass needs to be trimmed to 2.040" and after 3 firings this is the brass I have been using for these light loads. Its just a tiny bit shorter, but, it lets me seat the bullets exactly where they need be for the best crimp and have no worries about being a tad too long for COL. 34gr seems to fill to where that 300gr is probably close to touching the powder.

Again, thank you all in advance for your time. I will take your info to heart, make some new batches, trigger them - and be back with results.

Kevin

Again, thank you for the outpouring of great info.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Forget!!!!!!!!!!! the Hornady monoflex or the FTX gu7mmy nose!!!!!!!!!!! Hornady is a better company then those bullets and their stupidly non-standard brass indicate!

I'm NOT a tumble lube or Alox lube fan. Never could see dealing with the mess.

I do however make it a habit to clean the bottom of cast bullets after sizing/lubing and before loading.

Then, forget the fillers! 4198 is not hard to ignite, so as it seems you have already found, a better crimp will get things going in fine shape.

Crusty Deary Ol'coot

[35remington]

Low pressure with light charges of 4198 and lightish cast bullets is a known problem. Especially when the powder migrates away from the primer. Large swings in velocity can be expected to occur at a minimum. Squibs under worst case scenarios.

When labs that give loading data test ammo for pressure and velocity they are required by procedure to orient light charges near the primer. This is often not mentioned in their data.

Therefore you may obtain poor results with near minimum but supposedly adequate charges.

Get a chronograph. Try with powder near primer and powder near bullet. Even with magnum primers velocity variation under such conditions may be 200 plus fps. With such conditions occurring either change your load or use a Dacron filler.

Cold conditions worsen velocity variation and increase tendency to poor ballistic consistency.

Rule of thumb is 300 grain bullets and low pressure loads are very poor in the 45-70. If you want to shoot slow light cast bullets try 16-21000 psi loads using Red Dot or some other fast pistol/shotgun powder, not light charges of slower powders that sloshes around greatly in the case.

[buckshotshoey]

I shoot the RCBS 325 gr plain base. I started with 42 grains Varget. 45 grains to 50 grains is very accurate in my Henry, and only recoil in the 16 to 12 gauge shotgun range. If you can shoot trap and skeet all day, you can shoot these all day.