Problem alloy..."slushy".

[dahermit]

My brother gave me a 100 lbs. or so scrap lead. Some clip on wheel weights, some undetermined. When casting bullets using my Lee magnum melter (I dip), a thick "blanket" of metal comes to the surface. I appears much like Anitmony, but when I hit it with a propane torch it does not want to melt like Anitmony has for me in the past. After awhile it adhears to my RCBS ladle and turns all the colors of the rainbow...Gold, Purple, and Blue. It does not flux back into the melt with my usual mixture of powdered charcoal and parafin. I end up scraping it off the top of the melt. It is not likely zinc inasmuch as the bullets are still filled out. No mater how hot I run the pot, the bullets remain shiny instead of acquiring a frosted apearance. What have I got and what can I do about it?

[Oklahoma Rebel]

did you light your flux on fire? I was doing the copper sulfide thing last night and had the same problem, no matter how much I stirred. finally after adding enough pine shaving and wax, it ignited, and when the flames cleared, like magic!, all that was left was some brownish- grey powder.

[triggerhappy243]

if you think there may be zinc.......................... a drop of muriatic acid on the chunk of **** will be the best way to see. it will foam and fizz like crazy if it has zinc in it,

[dahermit]

I always light it on fire.

[dahermit]

if you think there may be zinc.......................... a drop of muriatic acid on the chunk of **** will be the best way to see. it will foam and fizz like crazy if it has zinc in it,

The bullets are filling out without a problem...I do not think the problem is zinc inasmuch as people report that bullets will not fill out if the alloy has been contaminated with zinc.

[triggerhappy243]

Foaming is an indication of zinc contamination. If you keep getting this layer coming up, please just try the acid test. I have cast with zinc contaminated lead, you can get good bullets, but the foaming never goes away.

[dahermit]

Foaming is an indication of zinc contamination. If you keep getting this layer coming up, please just try the acid test. I have cast with zinc contaminated lead, you can get good bullets, but the foaming never goes away.

Where did I say "foaming"? I said "slushy"...just like I have experainced in vertially every melt I have experainced...only more of it.

[triggerhappy243]

Does it look like watery oatmeal?

[triggerhappy243]

Just trying to figure out what you have. Without pictures of the surface, we can only guess what it is.

[dahermit]

Does it look like watery oatmeal?
No, it just looks like Antimony slush like normal, only it does not go back into solution with fluxing and the flame of a propane torch does not melt it as Antimony will. Nevertheless I will get some Muratic Acid from Walmart at the first opportunity and test with it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I wonder if it is some other metal we aren't used to seeing? you could send a sample of the slush to bne, he only charges one pound of lead, pretty good deal if you ask me! and he's usually pretty quick with an analysis

[dbosman]

Basically, ditto here.
I don't collect WWs any more as the last batch had some odd weights that started melting at 350 degrees F and made a slush on top of the melt. At 700 degrees F with three fluxings all was fine. I made it into ingots and melted some for casting. After cooling bullets were large for that mold. They should have been .357 - .359 but measured .364.
I kept the ingots, figuring I'll use them for something but they are in a closed lid bucket labeled as Not for Bullets.

The odd part is they cut with side cutters. Not as easily as pure lead, but not like zinc at all.

[runfiverun]

you got pure lead.
the stuff on top is oxides. [you can oxide an entire pot of pure lead away]
the purple and gold swirls, shiny no matter the heat, and no frosting is a dead giveaway.
turn the heat down.

[GhostHawk]

I'm with Run5, only time I see those colors is with pure and temp is a smidge too high.

[Smoke4320]

While I am no expert in alloys the only time I have seen what you described by colors and top layer is/ has been with pure lead
As said above lower melt temp

[dahermit]

Addendum: I have tested the alloy using Muriatic Acid (via eye dropper) as a test for Zinc as was suggested by a poster in this thread. No foaming, no bubbling...no reaction at all.

[John Boy]

What have I got and what can I do about it? Start by posting the temperature of the melt ... using a thermometer.
Pure lead melts at 620F. Melt with multiple colors indicates over heated pure lead
Next - what flux are you using and how many times do you flux the melt?

[dahermit]

Start by posting the temperature of the melt ... using a thermometer.
Pure lead melts at 620F. Melt with multiple colors indicates over heated pure lead
I have never owned one of those "thermometer" things. Not about to buy one inasmuch as I will shoot up that amount of lead in about two months, and have never used one despite casting since 1964 or so. I do not anticipate need one in the future. The alloy I am having trouble with came from clip-on wheel weights...not pure lead.


Next - what flux are you using and how many times do you flux the melt?I use powdered charcoal and parifin (sometimes Beeswax instead of parifin), to flux my alloys. I light the mixture when it smokes. I flux once before I start casting, after the alloy has melted. I cast with two (yes, Two), six cavity Lee molds...one cools while the other is being filled, so the Lee Magnum Melter empties pretty fast. During the casting session, I refil the pot once and flux again. When I get to the bottom of that pot full, I quit casting but refil the pot and let cool when it melts. The bullets are 125 grain 2R round nose that I use everyday (72 rounds a day), seven days a week, to shoot my backyard steel bowling pin set-up. So, I shoot a whole lot and cast a whole lot. This is the first time (since the early sixties) that I have gotten such a heavy slush on the top of the melt.
I suspect zinc despite the fact that there is no reaction (dripped on with an eye dropper, left at least 20 minuts) to the Muratic Acid at all.

[popper]

Probably NOT Zn. Save it and add to soft later, it MAY go back into the alloy. Sb locks up with a lot of different 'additives' in WW, some you can't separate easily.

[dondiego]

The stick on wheel weights that I encountered were almost pure lead. Not like clip on WW at all.

[triggerhappy243]

glad to hear no zinc.

[dahermit]

The stick on wheel weights that I encountered were almost pure lead. Not like clip on WW at all.

The melt consisted of almost all clip-ons with only a very few stick-ons.

[John Boy]

It appears much like Anitmony, but when I hit it with a propane torch it does not want to melt like Anitmony has for me in the past.

Well, I don't have a clue what melted antimony looks like, but it melts at 1118.534℉
So good luck with your mess cause I can't offer any suggestions

[MaryB]

I have seen this in high tin and antimony alloy like printers lead... it will flux back in with lots of pine sawdust and beeswax

[David2011]

I have seen this in high tin and antimony alloy like printers lead... it will flux back in with lots of pine sawdust and beeswax

Agreed. I frequently use monotype with wheelweights. The monotype forms a slush on top of the melt but sawdust mixes it back into the melt with ease.

David

[DerekP Houston]

I have seen this in high tin and antimony alloy like printers lead... it will flux back in with lots of pine sawdust and beeswax

I've seen that recommended a lot, I keep all my 'dross' from skimming my bottom pour. I've got a few lbs for the next time I make ingots and i'll flux the devil out of it to save what I can. Itching to get back to melting some lead once it cools off and dries out here.

[dahermit]

I have seen this in high tin and antimony alloy like printers lead... it will flux back in with lots of pine sawdust and beeswax

I have been using powdered charcoal. Where does a person get pine sawdust?

[MaryB]

Take a 2x4 and use a skilsaw and make a bunch of fine cuts... I collect it from my table saw base too. Anytime I am doing cutting of lumber I arrange to catch the sawdust. Another option is pine bedding shavings form the pet section at Walmart etc...

[Smoke4320]

Yes the dog bed pine shaving work great and cheap too

[runfiverun]

it doesn't have to be sawdust.
I pick chunks of rosin off the trees when I see them.
pencil shavings will work too.

[kens]

I played around with the copper enriched alloy, and I got the oatmeal looking stuff. It took a lot of sawdust fluxing and it melted back in, but the bullets casted difficult, and higher temp than regular alloy.

[dahermit]

Addendum: This A.M. I cast some more bullets with that "slushy" alloy. However, I tried fluxing with Pine shavings and Beeswax as per suggestion. It fluxed no better, no worse than my customery powdered charcoal and Beeswax. I ended up skiming the slush off the top and disguarding it. The alloy makes acceptable bullets, but noticed that they stay shiny no matter hot hot the molds get...unlike most alloys. However, they are usable nontheless.

[triggerhappy243]

shiny is not a bad thing. but does the slushy issue come back after you skim?

[dahermit]

shiny is not a bad thing. but does the slushy issue come back after you skim?

Somewhat, but less than when first melted. However, the skimming is removing more alloy than normal, or what I want. I mentioned shiny, not because it is bad...just that it does not feel/seem normal from what I have experianced in the 53 or so years I have been casting. There is definately something odd (some unusual property/stuff) about/in this alloy.

[triggerhappy243]

I know you said you tested for zinc. if there were a bad zinc problem, you would continue to see the crud surface over and over again. if it is a super thin layer that lays flat for the most part.......... eh.... but if it is mounding up.......... that is an issue. have you had it xrf tested? that would provide a full analysis of whats in the alloy.

[MaryB]

Don't toss the dross, next time you smelt chuck it in the pot and remelt it!

[dahermit]

Don't toss the dross, next time you smelt chuck it in the pot and remelt it!

Once the mush come to the surface, it does not melt...even when I use a propane torch on it. It just seems to bubble a little. So. if the added heat of a propane torch will not melt it back into the alloy (like anitmony does), I doubt that I could get it hot enough in a dutch oven in a wood fire would (my method of melting wheel weights). And even if it did, the product of doing such would likely just precipitate out when I try to cast bullets...as it does now.

[dahermit]

have you had it xrf tested? that would provide a full analysis of whats in the alloy.I am not really interested in what the alloy is. At 74 I don't want to waste money or time finding out. If no one here can provide a way of getting the mush back into the melt, I will just continue to skim it off and cast bullets with it anyway...but it is very annoying to toss so much mush from each melt.

[Dusty Bannister]

It is pretty hard to figure out how to remove an element until one finds out what that element is. But I do agree, if you do not feel it worth your time, no sense in messing with it further.

[lwknight]

No, it just looks like Antimony slush like normal, only it does not go back into solution with fluxing and the flame of a propane torch does not melt it as Antimony will. Nevertheless I will get some Muratic Acid from Walmart at the first opportunity and test with it.

It will do that if you have a high antimony content and not enough tin. You can cast bullets just fine without tin so if the alloy is pretty hard, it just might be antimony. Add 1% tin to the mix and watch it clear up like magic if it is in fact antimony. Tin makes antimony become part of the alloy instead of just something floating in the mix.
Also the blue colors can indicate pure lead with pure antimony crystals suspended in it.

[Kosh75287]

It's tempting to conclude that the alloy is pure or nearly pure lead. But wouldn't pure lead have difficulty filling out the bullet molds? I thought that almost all alloys needed some tin in the mix to assure complete filling of the mold cavities.

At least for me, when I get "slushy" stuff on top and it won't go away with fluxing, the melt will also incompletely fill the mold cavities. When I add more tin, both problems tend to go away. I'll still have a very thin layer of "slush" that still won't go away with fluxing, but it's a very thin layer, and the mold cavities fill out completely. That's just what I'VE observed.

[lwknight]

It's tempting to conclude that the alloy is pure or nearly pure lead. But wouldn't pure lead have difficulty filling out the bullet molds? I thought that almost all alloys needed some tin in the mix to assure complete filling of the mold cavities.

You can cast perfect bullets with pure lead if everything else is right. I only cast pure lead for sluggers but they come out near perfect without doing anything special.

[gobbles23]

I smelted a load of soft lead into alloys today. I had the same issue in my cast bean pot. I Am using a camping stove and the flame wouldn't turn blue, so I had a nice orange flame the whole time. My pot would keep turning to slush as if the pot cooled down a couple hundred degrees. I would cover and leave it sit forever. Fluxing did help temporarily, but I kept temp all the way up trying to melt the slush. I'm guessing that was my problem.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[triggerhappy243]

i smelted a load of soft lead into alloys today. I had the same issue in my cast bean pot. I am using a camping stove and the flame wouldn't turn blue, so i had a nice orange flame the whole time. My pot would keep turning to slush as if the pot cooled down a couple hundred degrees. I would cover and leave it sit forever. Fluxing did help temporarily, but i kept temp all the way up trying to melt the slush. I'm guessing that was my problem.

Sent from my sm-g955u using tapatalk

the flame is at it's hottest when it is blue BAD GASS OR PLUGGED ORRIFICE.

[dbosman]

If the camp stove is a Coleman the generator may need to be replaced.
Pull the tank and generator out of the stove and see what kind of stream of fuel you can get out of it.

[gobbles23]

It is the generator. Dad and I have taken it apart and cleaned it, it needs to be replaced

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[The Dar]

If the camp stove is a Coleman the generator may need to be replaced.
Pull the tank and generator out of the stove and see what kind of stream of fuel you can get out of it.

Or you could get one of these, hook it up to a 20lb propane tank and never look back....

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Stansport-Propane-Converter/10899097?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227009712378&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40838442272&wl4=aud-310687321802:pla-78280406607&wl5=9028655&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=10899097&wl13=&veh=sem

[gobbles23]

Or you could get one of these, hook it up to a 20lb propane tank and never look back....

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Stansport-Propane-Converter/10899097?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227009712378&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40838442272&wl4=aud-310687321802:pla-78280406607&wl5=9028655&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=10899097&wl13=&veh=semThat could work. Would a hot plate work to melt a pot of lead?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[triggerhappy243]

Or just get this.

[lightman]

My brother gave me a 100 lbs. or so scrap lead. Some clip on wheel weights, some undetermined. When casting bullets using my Lee magnum melter (I dip), a thick "blanket" of metal comes to the surface. I appears much like Anitmony, but when I hit it with a propane torch it does not want to melt like Anitmony has for me in the past. After awhile it adhears to my RCBS ladle and turns all the colors of the rainbow...Gold, Purple, and Blue. It does not flux back into the melt with my usual mixture of powdered charcoal and parafin. I end up scraping it off the top of the melt. It is not likely zinc inasmuch as the bullets are still filled out. No mater how hot I run the pot, the bullets remain shiny instead of acquiring a frosted apearance. What have I got and what can I do about it?

Some alloys are just problematic and you never really know whats going on. With 100# that you are already working your way through, it will be shot up pretty soon. You can just keep using away at it, or maybe try blending it with something else. I probably would just use it up.

[Springfield]

Get a thermometer. Get the melt up to about 710-725. Flux it with sawdust and stir it good. Then a bit more sawdust and some wax, stir and light. The slush will go back in. At least for me, this works 99% of the time.

[lwknight]

The hotplate could melt small batches for casting but would be too puny for smelting junk.
The turkey fryer burner is cheap and worth every penny. 200,000 btus of lead roasting fun.

[RogerDat]

I had a slush like what I think you are describing when I had less tin AND not enough heat, as in bulk heat. The core temp of the liquid was sufficient when measured with thermometer but the surface was cooling faster than the heat source could deal with. It was fall, in a garage, with a hot plate, I think 750 or 900 watt. Could do alloy with 2% tin fine but the 1/2 percent tin alloy in WW's was beyond ability of heat source to keep all liquid.

I had to dig back in my uploaded pictures but I think these are of that situation. One being a close up of the slush the other being the pot trying to melt. At least I think these are pictures of that. It is odd in a way molten lead the thermometer is in will be at the higher temp that lead melts at but the slush on top is not molten because it is a few degrees cooler. Same as there is molten lead with solid ingots in it in the one picture. The ingots are simply not as high of temperature as the molten lead. Put it on a gas burner and all that went away.

I don't think I casted with it until I got it melting well. Is it possible either the heating element or source or the climate in your casting area might be effecting the melt? Or for electric heat source possibly some other load has reduced the amount of power you can draw? A fan slows down when I fire up my pot on a 15 amp circuit so I wonder if a device might have been added that reduces the power to your heat source.

205158

205159

These are just spit balling ideas in the hope that it might help give you an idea to check out.

[lwknight]

I just can't see a 900 watt hotplate getting the job done. You need more firepower to continue to figure out it something is going on with the alloy or it is simply not melting all the way through.

[PBaholic]

Would a hot plate work to melt a pot of lead?

Yes, but you'll have to bypass the thermostat, otherwise it takes forever.

It's nice for an unknown alloy, as it doesn't get hot enough to melt zinc.

[Traffer]

I have some stuff like that but without the colors. I assumed that it was zinc and processed it the way they say with sulfur. That really made a mess. Instead of slush I ended up with bubble gum-ish stuff. Eventually it just turned hard and I put it in the dross bucket. I ruined about half the batch that way. The rest I just used as is. It works fine so I just use it.

[PBaholic]

I just had a batch that I just couldn't get real clean either. Every time I removed the scum on top, more just appeared. Tried fluxing with Beeswax, but no change.

The lead came from a buddy of mine. It used to be a pipe organ. It melted fine, and came back as BHN 8, so it wasn't pure lead. I cast it as-is, but I had a lot of trouble with it. The boolits wouldn't come out of the mold, even after I smoked it. They were bigger than my normal drop, and sized hard. I did about 10 pounds, and gave up on it. Too much trouble.

[WRideout]

Some brands of toilet bowl cleaner are just dilute HCl.
Wayne

[Nose Dive]

Gee guys... hmmmm

I smelt a 'trash smelt pot'...lot's of crud and garbage... I do 'segregate' items of known worth and worthless...'beer cans, paper clips, zinc clips...you know... 'get the trash out' and lead in. and I 'water wash' the smelt material as a lot of my trash comes from a few ranges and I 'gotta dig and go' fast or get shot at. So..cigarette butts, chewing gum, dirt...etc...etc. It all comes home with me.... So...all gets 'segregated' and water washed on my driveway... lay it all out...get the hose...get the 'spray nozzle' and get after it... then it sits all night and 'drys'...(yea,,,sure)...next day...
all the 'stuff' goes in the smelt pot....BUT...FIRST...FIRST...in the the POT FIRST:
1. about 2 or so inches of saw dust...old pine log dust...I like old pine planks from old fences.... Now...DON"T BE STINGY.. 3" is not bad...
2. now over all that goes about 1" or so of SULFUR from the nursery..'go now'...I found it on 'sale' at LOWE's due to the bags getting rained on..
3. add the SMELT Corruption on top...
4. Fire up the propane pot and GO SLOW>>>>GO LOW::::: or...start slow and low...bring things up SLOWLY REMEMBER...THINGS MAY BE WET
5. THIS IS AN OUTDOORS EFFORT... it will smoke...BIG TIME...
6. so as things get smoky...stir softly... and KEEP THE HEAT LOW... the pot will POP...GO SLOW and NEVER OVER 750!!
7. Stir and mix well...scrap off dross..ONCE ALL IS MELTED AND DROSS SCRAPPED from top bottom and sides!
XXX--NEVER---NEVER---NEVER--ADD MORE SMELT MATERIAL TO THE POT ONCE THINGS ARE MELTED.. KABOOOMMM!!
8. Add more sawdust...big hand fuls... mix and scrap...mix and scrape...
9. Add more sawdust...big hand fuls... mix and scrap...mix and scrape...
10. Add more sawdust...big hand fuls... mix and scrap...mix and scrape...
11. Add more sulfur and mix...GET BACK JACK...it smokes and stinks and can BURN YOUR EYES..NOSE..LUNGS..THROAT...KEEP TEMP DOWN!!
12. Add more sulfur and mix
13. now all is still 'cool'...750 at max... scrape bottom sides... top...
14..last show on Earth...add about 10 or so ounces of wax and mix well.... stir and scrape...( i use old 'toilet bowl' wax rings...free, and dirty yes...free)
15.. in some smelts...I do the wax trick two or three times too...
16. now.. pour out in ingots... let cool and harden... say two or three days...

DECISION TIME...

You like it... go for it...remelt and pour into casting ingots and go on.....

IF NO... resmelt in a CLEAN SMELT POT.. RE DO STEPS 9, 10,11, 12...
then add some..some PEWTER... amount of pewter depends on amount of smelt.... NO WE ARE BEING COOL YES? 750 or so...yea?

Mix and scrape... pour into ingots and 'look and see' in a few days... you should be cool to make casting ingots....

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[dondiego]

Why do you add sulfur to the smelt?

[RogerDat]

Pipe organ pipes are usually TIN alloy not lead. At least the ones I have seen. I just missed an entire church organ worth of pipes once. I was most bummed.

As I understand the process sulfur bonds with the zinc contamination and allows pulling it out as dross, with the possible drawback of also pulling tin with it. There might be a sticky on it in this forum I think. So for WW batch that you accidentally melt a bunch of zinc ones in sulfur is supposed to be a way to drive zinc percentage down to where you can cast with it.

[ioon44]

I had a ingot of slushy problem alloy tested with a RxF at a local salvage yard and it showed 88% PB, 5%SB, 3%SN,4%CU. I have tried to melt this into 150 lbs of COWW with Pine bedding and candle wax at 750 deg F and had to skim it off. I have been casting for 50 years and never ran into this problem.

I guess the 4% CU is causing the problem with slush not combining? The RxF didn't show any Zinc at all.

I don't know if I want to try mixing it with a new 140 lb batch of COWW or not, I should have just sold it to the salvage yard but lead goes to the black hole of salvage yard bullet casters will never see it again.

[popper]

Ioon44 - probably need to increase the temp to 850 or so and let it sit for a while. That much Cu does take more heat. Once it is diluted it casts well. I've cast with 2% @ 730, no problem.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

although I believe you with your results,popper, I never go over an estimated .5% copper. I cast with a 4-20 lee (not smelt),and if it isn't quite hot enouch, I can see a "skin" develop on the stream. what do you cast with, a bottom pour? if so what kind? or do you ladle pour.

[ioon44]

Ioon44 - probably need to increase the temp to 850 or so and let it sit for a while. That much Cu does take more heat. Once it is diluted it casts well. I've cast with 2% @ 730, no problem.

When I skimmed this off I had the temp up to 900 deg F and was still slushy. The ingot is only 15 lbs but me being stubborn I will try to beat it into submission by diluting it and adding more Sn to the COWW.

Is adding more Sn going to help it recombine?

[lwknight]

When I skimmed this off I had the temp up to 900 deg F and was still slushy. The ingot is only 15 lbs but me being stubborn I will try to beat it into submission by diluting it and adding more Sn to the COWW.

Is adding more Sn going to help it recombine?

Only 15 pounds is not worth fooling with. I would set it aside to cast fishing weights before wasting more good stuff trying to save it.