Paper problems

[yondering]

Thought I'd give paper patching a try, it sounds real interesting, but I'm having trouble with the paper. I've got some 100% cotton vellum tracing paper, which doesn't want to stick to itself when rolled on the boolit. (just using tap water to wet it). I've tried some 25% cotton resume paper, which sticks nicely, but tears easily when I try to twist the tail.
I've tried 4 or 5 other kinds of paper from my office as well, everything I've tried either tears too easily, or won't stick to itself. I haven't found anything that will let me twist a nice tight tail without tearing or just loosening up again. Any suggestions? What paper are you guys using, specifically?

[Don McDowell]

I like to get one of those blue "paper" shop towls pretty damp, fold it in half, then I lay the patches inside the fold. They don't tend to get so wet that they tear easy, but they'll roll up nice.
It also seems to help to roll the bullets on a piece of hard foam, or rubber, so that you can apply some pressure to the bullet while rolling to get the patch nice and snug.
You also may want to try folding the base, instead of twisting.
I'm using mostly 20lb cotton paper for the bullet I have altho just good ol xerox copyprinter paper from walmart has worked well enough. The bullet I'm patching starts at .435, so I need the thick paper to get to .450

[beemer]

I have been using mostly Meade tracing paper from Wally-World. It is .0015 thick so maybe it's not thick enough to do what you need.

You can get the paper to wet, just good and damp works for me. You can't twist the tail tight or it will tear. After I wrap the boolit I hold the paper on and turn the boolit as I pat and form the tail while twisting slightly. It seems to help to push the tail lightly into the base. All this is done in the same direction as the wrap. This works for me, others may have better advice.

It took about a sheet of paper and several funny looks from my wife to get it right.( she looks at me funny sometimes anyway)

beemer

[pdawg_shooter]

I use 16# green bar computer paper. I drag it through a bowl of plain water.

[docone31]

Cigarette Roller!
I soak my papers, roll em on. The machine squeeges the excess water off. The paper dries hard!
Once you find your length, it is almost boring.
I also use the Meade Tracing Paper. Not very strong wet. The gas checks also cut the tail. I do not use gas checks now.

[bcp477]

In my experience, twisting the tail (without tearing) is tough to learn to do consistently - with any paper. One hint : the paper should not be too wet - damp is just right. For the tail twisting, just practice and practice more. You'll get it (if I could - anyone can). As for the paper not sticking to itself....I use a tiny line of yellow glue to seal my patches. I apply it with a toothpick or straightened paperclip - just a little. As long as the glue doesn't adhere the paper to the bullet, it will not cause any problems (for that to happen, you'd have to use a LOT of glue...or apply it UNDER the first paper wrap...which would make no sense).

[Southern Son]

pdawg shooter, when you saw green bar computer paper, do you mean the stuff that had the holes down either side for the printer to push it through? Or is green bar a US brand?

[pdawg_shooter]

pdawg shooter, when you saw green bar computer paper, do you mean the stuff that had the holes down either side for the printer to push it through? Or is green bar a US brand?

The stuff with holes. Where I work they print stacks of reports nobody ever reads. I take a 4 or 5 inch stack and it last me years.

[Southern Son]

Thanks pdawg shooter, I know what to look for now. I know what you mean about things getting printed up that don'e need to be, I just walked into the office and found 15 things printed up on the printer, 3 of them were needed, the rest were to help keep track of money we take over the counter, they all said we had taken no money. Is it just me, or is printing up a blank reciept stupid?

Has anyone tried using paper from a phone book? The first time I actually saw anyone using PP he was using smokeless powder and paper from the phone book. It always came out the end like confetti (did not seem to be sticking on the boolit) and he was getting good accuracy (he beat me), but I have heard that some papers have clay and other things in them that make them abrasive. Is paper from the phone book like that?

[pdawg_shooter]

I size my 45-70 bullets .4515, wrap them with 2 wraps, and load them over 50gr H322. This is a 430gr flat point. Shoot them in a Marlin 1895g. They group 1.25 to 1.375 at 100yds. All I can ask with a Lyman 66 and 56 year old eyes. BTW, I cast from an alloy that test 12.0/12.5 BHN. I have found this about perfect for this velocity on game. My 30cal from my 30.06 I cast at 14.0 BHN and for my 300RUM at 16.0/16.5.

[yondering]

Thanks guys. I went a little easier on the tails, pushing them in to the base rather than pulling on them and making them real tight; it worked fine. Loaded and shot 5 of them successfully last night.

[pdawg_shooter]

Now Your Hooked!

[wonderwolf]

Thanks pdawg shooter, I know what to look for now. I know what you mean about things getting printed up that don'e need to be, I just walked into the office and found 15 things printed up on the printer, 3 of them were needed, the rest were to help keep track of money we take over the counter, they all said we had taken no money. Is it just me, or is printing up a blank reciept stupid?

Has anyone tried using paper from a phone book? The first time I actually saw anyone using PP he was using smokeless powder and paper from the phone book. It always came out the end like confetti (did not seem to be sticking on the boolit) and he was getting good accuracy (he beat me), but I have heard that some papers have clay and other things in them that make them abrasive. Is paper from the phone book like that?

Dang, my long winded reply just got erased by this stupid button on the side of this mouse here at work. Yes I've tried phone book paper. Yes it seems to work but it might not be the best for paper patching as most phone books are made from recycled material they have clays in them for binding and acids in them for the coloring. Dunno if thats REALLY gonna hurt things in the long run but I imagine it could.


Shameless plug, Some paper patching things in the article
http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2007/11/blog-post.html

I've found a vellum tracing paper at office max, On a big roll that works well and its what I've been using after going through all sorts of papers last fall and spring. This vellum measured on my digi calipers is .001" but folded over 4 times it is .005" so the paper is more like .00125" I'm thinking. When I send my order to Red River Rick for one of his adjustable paper patch molds I'm thinking of having it made to .445" instead of the somewhat standard .446" I've been seeing.

I've been working in an engineering office here on campus for the past few weeks helping them throw stuff away and move offices around and I'm accumulating a goodly amount of various thicknesses of tracing and print paper that they used to use for drafting and such.

[windrider919]

I agree with above those above that you do not have to twist the tail tight. After a lot of trial and error I found that if I roll the body tight (and am using the correct length to match that papers stretch! which changes depending on the grain of the paper and its composition) .and then just lightly twist it does fine. In fact, I cut some of my patches short so there is no tail, just lightly fold the paper over onto the base while turning slightly to forn many small 'wedge' creases. That does work best if no lead is left exposed. Then I set the bullet base down to dry. After a couple of hours I turn the wrapped bullet onto it's side so the base will dry.

On getting the patch to stick to itself and stay rolled- I experimented with just about everything in the kitchen and laundry room. Egg white in water, elmers glue both as an edge glue and a binder in water, starch and lots more. Then it was recommended to me about Rooster Bullet Lube which is watter soluble until it dries. I do not use it full stringth but use it 1/4 strength. It dries to a hard wax full on but diluted you can not even tell it's there. Except that the patch stays tight, does not pick up moisture and shoots better than 'plain water' patch. Lots of guys say that you should not lube your patches, some will point out that you should only externally lube your parch, not soak it. But I found that just a dab of lube applied externally to a patch in the standard, old timer approved way soaked in anyway. All I am saying is experiment because your rifle may like one technique better than another mans.

Addendum: Hi, Wonderwolf, Hows it going? I sold that .41 Avenger kit for $181.00, just barrel, bushing, springs and dies. I am using all that 45 Win Mag brass for 45 Super instead of giving it with the kit. Good luck on your search!

[Southern Son]

Wonderwolf, I knew that the phone books in Oz are mainly recycled paper, and still I did not think of that. Makes me glad I am a member of this group, even when you know something, just a little more information can stop you making a potentially bad error. I did not know about the acid used for colouring. Thanks for that. Looks like I will have to order some 25% cotton paper from BACO. I have tried locating some suitable paper in Mackay, but all I got was strange looks. After I asked about paper with 25% cotton content, one chick in a craft store said "No, paper is made from trees." And they look at me strange. Still, suppose that is not as bad a the bloke in the metal foundry I rang looking for tin, he asked me to spell it?????

[catboat]

Has anyone tried using paper from a phone book? The first time I actually saw anyone using PP he was using smokeless powder and paper from the phone book. It always came out the end like confetti (did not seem to be sticking on the boolit) and he was getting good accuracy (he beat me), but I have heard that some papers have clay and other things in them that make them abrasive. Is paper from the phone book like that?
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Phone book paper is called "directory grade" paper. It is made of mostly groundwood fiber, which is short and weak. The paper is made stronger by adding longer softwood kraft (SWK) fiber to it . Directory paper typically is a stronger, lighter weight version of newsprint. Directory paper has low levels of inorganic filler. It is usuall 3-5% (maybe as high as 8%) filler. Filler can be clay, or acid tolerant calcium carbonate. Clay is more abrasive than CaCO3.

Directory paper is made either in a slightly acidid or pH neutral water environment (wet end chemistry). It doesn't matter what process it is made in regarding any potentially harmful acids to the bore.

Yes, many directory grades use recycled fiber. This normally hurts strength, which is why papermakers have to use SWK to maintain machine runnability. The inks used in shouldn't do any harm to the bore of a rifle. Most inks for news/directory (black) is carbon black and kerosene. The yellow dye used won't hurt the bore or a rifle. It it is applied to the base sheet, there is no problem. If it is applied to the surface, as a "know out" ad in a phone book (the rest of the sheet is undyed, and just the ad is yellow) , it may be a little stiff-but shouldn't be any problem to paper patching or your rifle bore.

I sold process chemicals to paper mills for many years. This is from experience. I just posted a "Paper 101" primer in this forum for paper patchers to read. It gives a little description to the chemical and physical properties of paper and papermaking for paper patchers. You may want to check it out.

[catboat]

Quote:
"Has anyone tried using paper from a phone book? The first time I actually saw anyone using PP he was using smokeless powder and paper from the phone book. It always came out the end like confetti (did not seem to be sticking on the boolit) and he was getting good accuracy (he beat me), but I have heard that some papers have clay and other things in them that make them abrasive. Is paper from the phone book like that?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phone book paper is called "directory grade" paper. It is made of mostly groundwood fiber, which is short and weak. The paper is made stronger by adding longer softwood kraft (SWK) fiber to it . Directory paper typically is a stronger, lighter weight version of newsprint. Directory paper has low levels of inorganic filler. It is usuall 3-5% (maybe as high as 8%) filler. Filler can be clay, or acid tolerant calcium carbonate. Clay is more abrasive than CaCO3.

Directory paper is made either in a slightly acidid or pH neutral water environment (wet end chemistry). It doesn't matter what process it is made in regarding any potentially harmful acids to the bore.

Yes, many directory grades use recycled fiber. This normally hurts strength, which is why papermakers have to use SWK to maintain machine runnability. The inks used in shouldn't do any harm to the bore of a rifle. Most inks for news/directory (black) are carbon black and kerosene. The yellow dye used won't hurt the bore or a rifle. If it is applied to the base sheet, there is no problem. If it is applied to the surface, as a "knock out" ad in a phone book (the rest of the sheet is undyed, and just the ad is yellow) , it may be a little stiff-but shouldn't be any problem to paper patching or your rifle bore.

I just posted a "Paper 101" primer in this forum for paper patchers to read. It gives a little description to the chemical and physical properties of paper and papermaking for paper patchers. You may want to check it out.[/QUOTE]

[yeahbub]

I use 100% rag drafting vellum almost exclesively and had that "won't stick to itself" problem also, but found a solution. I buy the E-size sheets and found that if I cut the strips from along the narrow end of the sheet, they will roll on properly and have ample stretch to make the ends meet. The strips are a little shorter that way, but there's little waste anyway. Dunk the patch in water until no longer slick (the paper has sizing on it) and roll it on until the ends meet. I leave mine .06-.08 short so I can roll them tight before the ends meet. They also shrink when they dry, so they'll be nice and tight. A decent tail can be twisted while wet and tightened up when dry. This vellum is usually .0025 thick or so, but I've seen it as thin as .002 or as thick as .003.

[techlava]

Anyone tried kraft (brown paper bag)?

[6.5 mike]

Ya, your so right pdawg, hooks in real deep. Just look at what you did to me. hehehe

[303Guy]

I use a tiny line of yellow glue to seal my patches. I apply it with a toothpick or straightened paperclip - just a little. As long as the glue doesn't adhere the paper to the bullet, it will not cause any problems (for that to happen, you'd have to use a LOT of glue...or apply it UNDER the first paper wrap...which would make no sense). That's where I have arrived at. Paper glue does not stick to lead too well. But just to make doubly sure I give the boolits a light roll on the lube pad. As for applying glue between boolit and casting, well, I tried using glue as the wetting agent. It works! That was for cig paper. I applied the glue to the boolit and rolled the dry patch on. Once dry, it falls free of the lead except that the paper shrinks. Cig paper did not work for me. (With or without glue). When I use a 'sliver' of glue (applied by toothpick), I cut the patch angle to match the rifling angle since the angle is not going to be holding the patch on anyway. That way, I can roll stretch the patch where needed to close the gap.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F.jpg
The joint is no longer straight due the gap closing technique I use. ( My boolits are not perfectly straight sided - they are tapered and curved). I cannot detect the joint line on a recovered boolit.

[charger 1]

Cigarette Roller!
I soak my papers, roll em on. The machine squeeges the excess water off. The paper dries hard!
Once you find your length, it is almost boring.
I also use the Meade Tracing Paper. Not very strong wet. The gas checks also cut the tail. I do not use gas checks now.

Can someone show me the style of cig roller their using?

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-186F.jpg

[leftiye]

303, Will that thang roll a .45 caliber boolit?

[303Guy]

To find out I rolled a 50cal range pick-up. It does. Not sure that it's better than the mouse pad method. It does progressively stretch the paper tight, thus closing the gap. The trial boolit is now drying, so we'll see.:roll: