Wc-820 & 45-270-saa...

[BCB]

Anybody use this powder (Lot # 47320) with the 45-270-SAA? My particular lot of this WC-820 is “absolutely” the same as Accurate Arms #9 data indicates. I have loaded 44 Magnum loads using the same charge of AA#9 and my WC-820 and velocities are interchangeable.

I have looked at the Accurate Arms data for AA#9 and the 45 LC, but I am having trouble figuring out a starting charge. My 45-270-SAA weigh-in at 283 grains and I will be shooting this from a newer Blackhawk.

Any thoughts?

Thanks…BCB

[Reloader06]

My Accurate Arms #2 (Revised) Lists in the 45 Colt Ruger & T/C Only section a starting charge of 15.8 grn for 998 fps and tops out at 17.5 grn 1134 fps. This is for a 280 grn TC Lead Boolit.
NOT RESPONCIBLE FOR TYPOS!!! CHECK ALL DATA

Hope this helps

Matt

[Lloyd Smale]

I would say in testing those numbers are on the optimistic side. Id say that 17.5 is going to buy you about 1000fps. If your going to load it that light stick to mag primers or your not going to get real good ignition. It will come into its own at about 19 grains. Which is still a mild load for a ruger large frame 45 colt.

[BCB]

Reloader06: Thanks…I went to the AA website and got the data for the 300 grain bullet also. I then averaged the starting loads for each weight and then averaged the maximum charge for each boolit. I got 14.6 to 16.3 grains of AA#9. I have worked up to 15 grains with no problems—the cases fall from the chamber…

Lloyd: I’m not so much concerned with velocity, but 1000 fps would be nice. BUT, I must admit that the 19 grains you mention might be a bit excessive? I really don’t know why I say that, but it is a far distance from 15 grains to 19 grains! That’s a 26% increase from 15 grains—that might be substantial!

Oh well, I will work up slowly regardless. Thanks again…BCB

[Scrounger]

You may well have to exceed 15 grains in order to get good ignition and burn all the powder. WC820 is not a powder for light loads. Go to Unique.

[felix]

Not excessive if your case expansion is within limits. Depends on cylinder hole diameter for the most part because modern day brass is fine. If expansion is excessive with WC820/AA9, load the case full with RL7/WW680 for a nice reduction of cylinder pressure. These two powders come into their own realm within the 45 bore at 25 grains or more when just barely touched via compression. No need for mag primers either. The cylinder gap will release any pressure too high with powder this slow. ... felix

[BCB]

Yep, I am going to slowly increase from the 15 grains. I will begin to use my Chrony as the weather allows. That will sort of be my true guide...

Felix: You mention WW680--How about WC-680 (surplus)? I never gave it a thought as it is a slow burner. I have used it in the 44 Magnum with minimal results. Might be worth a try in the 45LC?

Thanks all...BCB

[felix]

Chrony no help here like it would be for a closed system. Check case expansion for loads you like, and now compare the same cases using the higher performance loads. You want the case expansion to be roughly the same to the nearest 10,000. The slower powders might not deliver more velocity in your gun because of the gap playing a greater role. But, the 45 caliber is a bigger barrel hole by a measurable amount compared to a 44 when using these slower powders, which will lessen the gap effect. These two faster rifle powders are too, too slow for the 44. Yep, start at 28 grains WC680 with your boolit, or whatever touches your boolit base. If you want to back down, don't go below 25 grains or so, or wherever powder does not burn good enough without a high heat, low force, primer. Try to stay with normal primers so you can see the pressure effects mo-betta. ... felix

Once you settle on a load with the slow burners, keep an eye on the top strap. Try to remember to check every 500 rounds or so. You will have more erosion with these slow burners. ... felix

[JRR]

I did a work-up with three different 280-285 cast bullets and WC820 (slightly slower than yours).

With a long wide nose GC, (.4 nose length) the sweet spot in my Win. 94 was 18.5-19 grns. and 1400 fps.

With a wide flat nose GC, (.320 nose length) the sweet spot in the Win. 94 was 17-18.5 grns. and 1400 fps.

With a Keith style SWC with equal length bands, no gas check and a nose length of .350 the sweet zone was also 17-18 and about 1400.

Seems my Winchester with a 16" barrel loves the 1400 fps speed.

I suspect that in a 7.5" Ruger, these loads will be in the 1100fps zone.

Fantastic accuracy at 50 yards.

With your powder batch, I suggest backing off 2 grains and go from there.

Starline brass fireformed in the Win chamber and then resized with an RCBS STEEL sizing die that keeps the base a good fit with minimal expansion and provides great bullet hold at the neck.

No sooting of the cases! Effortless extraction and perfect primers. I'm guessing approx. 25,000 psi.

Jeff

[felix]

That would be about 1000 in a pistol after cutting a couple of grains. The slower powders should deliver 150 or more extra fps. ... felix

[frank505]

45 colt, starline brass, wlp primer, 21 grains wc 820 lot 47320, 310 keith, oal 1.695, 22,650 psi, velocity 1199.
45 colt, starline brass,fedd 155, 21 grains wc820 lot 47320,310 keith,oal 1.695, 32250 psi, velocity 1324, have shot this load for 20 years in the same gun. barrel has been set back three times from gas cutting, have shot thousands of rounds.
45 colt,starline brass, fed 155, enforcer powder 21 grains, 310 keith oal 1.695, 27870 psi, vel 1278, very similar to wc 820 but made thirty years apart.
In the lab primers made a huge difference in pressure and velocity, however in a real gun the lab results as far as primers went, did not follow. Your chronograph is your best friend without a ballistic lab to play in .

[BCB]

I just fired a few rounds using the 45-270-SAA (wheel weights/283 grains) using AA #9 and WC-680.

I shot them at about 10 yards through liter plastic bottles filled with water and then the boolits exited into a piece of white pine log. Not scientific at all, but I could see penetration, plus it gave me a few cases to measure.

The cases shown from left to right along with the boolit recovered and the expansion ring:

15.0…AA#9…0.4808”
16.0…AA#9…0.4809”
28.0…WC-680…0.4810”

All cases basically fell from the chamber when the cylinder was rotated and held upward.
I will now try WC-820 as this thread started to inquire about. (Good info frank505)

Someone suggested Unique as an acceptable power—I agree 100% as I am presently using 9.0 grains of Unique for 974 fps from the 5.5” Blackhawk.

I have always preferred slow burners for the heavier boolits and that is the reason I want to try AA#9 or WC-820—WC-680 just happened to occur—thanks to Felix’s suggestion.

The next step will be to chronograph a few and check the accuracy also. We shall see what we shall see…

I shoot H-110 and WC-680 in my 44 Magnum using the 429650 boolit (315+ grains). Very good accuracy. And in the 357 Magnum using the 358429 (170+ grains) I use H-110, WC-820, and SR-4759 (Marlin 1894 rifle). All these slow burners give exceptional accuracy—much better than any other powder that is considerably faster. Maybe I’m a bit “crazy”, but as I said before, slow burners have always given me better accuracy with the heavy-for-caliber weight boolits…

Thanks to all who posted—additional comments welcome…BCB

[BCB]

Just fired a few rounds over my Chrony and the results are interesting...

16.0 grains of WC-820 gave an average velocity of 871 fps...
28.0 grains of WC-680 gave an average velocity of 1087 fps...

The extreme spread with the WC-680 was only 11 fps for 5 rounds...
The extreme spread with the WC-820 was greater at around 50 fps...

I guess I could go a few more grains of WC-820, but I was being cautious to start.

frank505, was your data acquired from a handgun/rifle or is it laboratory data? I suspect recoil would approach brutal with the 21 grain loads!

Recoil with the 28.0 grains of WC-680 was sufficient to get your attention! It might not necessarily be a pleasure to shoot a box (50) of them all at one shooting episode!

Now I will check some of these for accuracy--I like the WC-680 load!

Thanks to all...BCB

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess where we differ felix is im a volume loader. I shoot a ton of handgun rounds. I buy surplus to save money and i save money not only because it cost less to buy but I use less 820 for a mag pistol round then i would 110/296, 4227, little gun ect. It just doesnt make sense to me to buy 680 and fill the cases with it to get the same velocitys or less that i can get with less 820.
Not excessive if your case expansion is within limits. Depends on cylinder hole diameter for the most part because modern day brass is fine. If expansion is excessive with WC820/AA9, load the case full with RL7/WW680 for a nice reduction of cylinder pressure. These two powders come into their own realm within the 45 bore at 25 grains or more when just barely touched via compression. No need for mag primers either. The cylinder gap will release any pressure too high with powder this slow. ... felix

[frank505]

all the data was a 5.5 inch test barrel, Jeff and I loaded the ammo on site

[BCB]

Lloyd,

I understand what you are saying about the faster burners. Presently, I am using Unique in my 45 Colt with the 45-270-SAA boolit and accuracy is quite good. In all honesty, this and an application with the 32 Long Colt is the only good I have found for Unique! (That might be sacrilege to some, but it is a fact to me!)

I do have a good load using Scot 453 in the 357 Magnum, but that is another exception! I guess I also like the difference in recoil produced with the slow burners—not quite as sharp or abrupt.

But you are indeed correct that a pound of fast will probably load double what a pound of slow will load—Yet, before surplus became so popular, the slower burners were less per pound than the fast burners, SO it sort of averaged out…

Thanks for all the comments—this Blackhawk with the 45-27—SAA has become a favorite of mine! Used to be the Security-Six in 357…BCB

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot a ton of franks load of 21 grains of 820 and a rcbs 300swcgc out of my 45s. recoil is simualar to the 23-24 grains of 110 load and velocitys are simular. Like frank said my guns have digested thousands of these rounds and have never missed a beat because of it. Recoil is stout but all a guy has to do is shoot a couple hundred 500s or 475s first and then they feel like 38 specials!!!!

[BCB]

I cast some 45-270-SAA out of pure lead the other day and just thought I might hollow point a few with the Forster Universal Hollow Pointer.

These boolits are hollow pointed approximately 0.35” deep with the 1/8th inch bit provided with the hollow pointer and weight in at 287± grains.

I used 28.0 grains of WC-680 at a velocity 10’ from the muzzle of 1087 fps.

They were fired into wet news paper at a distance of 20 feet. They penetrated approximately one foot.

They retained virtually all of their weight and they expanded to 0.84”.

Always something to do with cast boolits…BCB