Lee REAL bullets

[megasupermagnum]

I have been shooting a T/C Impact with cast Lee REAL's and am undecided yet. I am wondering some other peoples results. I am casting from mostly pure lead. I am using Blackhorn 209 for powder. So far I have only tried them off wobbly benches, in rain, or other problems, yet the accuracy seems promising. The first time I casted from a mystery lead that was too hard, and I had to force them down the bore. Still it gave about a 2", 3 shot group at 40 yards with open sights. I now have a Leupold 1-4x scope on it, which works great. Last trip I went out, and the range was having a competition. I went to a family's property and shot off the truck hood, which was not at all Ideal. Still I got 2"-3" groups at 50 yards. I have been lubing with Bore butter, and it works, but its just a PITA; messy and inaccurate. I now have a handful I have pan lubed in Carnauba Red. I tried shooting with and without a wool felt wad under the bullet, but did not see any difference. I will hopefully be shooting from a lead-sled this weekend, to take the human element out of it. One thing I noticed is that the rifling barely engages the bullet. It makes them a joy to load all day long, but I wonder if it is hurting accuracy. Or is the obturation of the slug a part of the design? I know the bands are tapered small on bottom and big on top, even the small bottom band is engraved. The other thing I doubt affects accuracy, but I can't find a loading tip that works that well with these. The T/C "universal" loading tip works ok, but leaves a ring mid way around the bullet tip. A cleaning jag doesn't leave a mark, but it seems like its too easy to load it crooked that way.

[triggerhappy243]

When you cast these, the lead and mold must be super hot. The ribs should come out real sharp. Any roundness in these ribs is detrimental to accuracy............... And yes, a felt was does help accuracy.

[rodwha]

I have a .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker with a ~.502x.520" bore. Using felt wads and a 70 grn setting that drops closer to 80 grns weight of 3F gave me nearly touching holes at 50 yds in my 1:48" twist. I didn't shoot many but bought a mold after seeing that.

[megasupermagnum]

These seem to cast very well. I'm running the pot between 700-750F. I pre-heat the mold, then it's just a couple pours before I get great looking bullets. Are these supposed to fit tighter in the bore? Hopefully this weekend I'll get to do actual testing. So far I've ran from 50-120 grains powder, and all shoot decent. I would love 3" groups at 100 yards. My barrel is 1:28 twist, and I should mention I'm using the 320 grain version.

I guess what I'm ultimately asking is, can these be that accurate, or would going to the big maxi-ball be better?

[triggerhappy243]

Also............. Weigh them all and cull out the ones that are too light. They all should weigh within 1 gr. Of each other.

[oldracer]

I have a 50 caliber 1 in 48 twist Douglas xx barrel with 80 grains of Goex FFG. I have shot patched round balls, Lee Mini pure lead and Lee REAL pure lead and all 3 give me 5 shot strings with the holes touching at 100 yards! With the round ball and Mini I wipe with 1 wet/1 dry between shots and with the REAL I do not wipe unless we have a cease fire. I do not use a wad of any type between Mini and REAL and have no leading issues. I lube all 3 with Bore Butter (patch and both bullets). I have no idea how hot my lead temp is as I turn up the temp to maximum and start to cast when some saw dust sprinkled on top burns off immediately.

I would try pure lead, as hot as possible so all edges are very sharp and no cracks or wrinkles. I'd try leaving the wad out. For example the long range (1000 YD) shooter who use the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle with their 520 grain grease groove bullet do NOT use any sort of wad. I tried mine with a wad and it shoots better groups w/o the wad and this is in all 4 of my slug guns. With a different bullet (BACO 540 grain) I use a wad and no wad with my paper patched custom molded bullets. Good luck, John

[mooman76]

Do you have a micrometer or something to measure with. The top band should be coming out .017 over bore diameter or .517. Pure or near pure lead with just a touch of tin to help fill out.

[oldracer]

The .017 over bore diameter sounds about right as when I bought my Lee mold I called them to see what the fit should be. Remember it is supposed to "scrape" the barrel fouling (in the rifling) down as the bullet seats. John

[megasupermagnum]

You know, you might be on to something. I just measured a handful, and the top band only measures between .505" and .510". If It was up to the full .517", they would fit much better. How high would you guys say I can go with the pot temperature? I definitely don't want a repeat of the overheat I had that completely loaded my pot with oxidation. Maybe 800-850? I could add tin, how about 40:1?

Holes touching at 100 yards is definitely promising. I will say my gun is capable. It was shooting Hornady FPB copper jacket bullets under 2" groups at 100 yards with the open sights. I'll keep with the REAL bullets then. It seems like some people on the internet didn't do well, but I'm already getting acceptable groups with undersized slugs. I'll try both with and without the felt wad.

[triggerhappy243]

Just a pinch of tin will help fill out the ribs. That is key.

[oldracer]

Remember when working up a load or how well a bullet or ball works use a rest like Lead Sled or other machine rest to take YOU out of the equation. Sand bags at both ends are a fill in if you don't have one but most ranges have some sort of loaner rest. The diameter can vary as long as the bullet is nice and sharp. Good luck, John

[John Boy]

So which shoots more accurate ... the Lee R.E.A.L or the Maxi 'ball'?

[triggerhappy243]

so which shoots more accurate ... The lee r.e.a.l or the maxi 'ball'?

only your rifle can tell you that. This is what mine said about the maxi-ball at 100 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

I tried the REAL's a couple more times with dismal results. This last time I casted with 40-1 lead, pot 750-800, and kept the mold hot. I culled all the bad bullets by size and weight. My mold throws bullets with the top band at .516", and a I tossed everything .515" and smaller. I then lubed with canaruba red. In my T/C Impact these would shoot fairly consistent 2"-3" at 50 yards, same as they always have. Moving out to 100, they are garbage. I was using a 28ga 100% wool felt wad, and tried 50-120 grains of both Blackhorn 209 and (2) 777 pellets. The best may have been a fluke, at 80 grains of BH I kept 2 out of 5 on a 12x16 sheet of paper. They don't appear to be tumbling, but they clearly are not right. The same gun will shoot 300 gr SST sabots 2" at 100 yards, and 350 gr FPB's 1.5" 5 shot groups with 90 grains BH 209.

After some research, I discovered the culprit may be the QLA recessed muzzle T/C uses. I guess the bore may be slightly off center, while the muzzle is bored perfectly. I don't understand why it shoots FPB's better than any sabot, but people claim this combo won't shoot conical s well. It looks like I can have it cut off, and re-crowned for around $50. I'll definitely try that after the season is over.

[triggerhappy243]

megasupermagnum, the ridges on the real must be cast super sharp. they can not be rounded off. is it possible yours were not like this?

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know what else I could have possibly done to get a better casting. Everyone keeps saying super sharp ridges, so I kept trying. I must have casted 300 of these and shot at least half them since I bought the mold last spring. This last time I was casting with added tin, quite hot (750+), and kept the mold as hot as humanly possible. I also tried pressure pouring. My top band topped out at .516", and only a few were smaller than that. I don't have another gun to try these in, but I am convinced these are cast to the very best quality I can provide. I think some softer lube would be better, but I don't think it's going to cut groups down from 18+" at 100 yards. I first started with bore butter, and they shot just as poorly.

From what I keep reading about the QLA muzzle T/C's, I'm actually doing pretty good. I've read where guys were shooting near MOA at 100 yards with sabots, but couldn't keep a maxi-ball on paper at 50. If I could find a store to sell maxi-ball's I'd try them, but I've made up my mind. I've shot muzzle loaders with plain barrels, and they load just fine. The QLA is a gimmick, it's only advantage is I can load without a starter. I'm just hoping it improves my accuracy without it.

[docone31]

What I do is to crumple a patch between the powder and base of the casting. That solved some real accuracy issues that I had.

[rodwha]

I've read often enough that fast twists just don't care for many cast conicals.

Idahoron, who shoots fast twists, has found the Lee .500 S&W bullet paper patched shoots extremely well. He couldn't get the REAL to shoot well at all. If I'm not mistaken his barrel is also 1:28" twisted.

[megasupermagnum]

I figured the twist is a little fast, but enough to throw bullets in a shotgun-like pattern? I'm not looking for match accuracy. If I could get consistent 3" CTC 5-shot groups at 100 yards, I would be completely satisfied. I just don't see any little trick fixing accuracy that wont hit a piece of paper, my smooth bore shotguns shoot better. I've thought about paper patching, but that's just too much work to me. I have considered buying sabots and casting bullets, I already cast for 44 mag, but I would prefer a full bore conical.

[rodwha]

It seems the lighter powder charges might have worked. I'm a little surprised it didn't work out well enough.

[kens]

The driving bands on REAL slugs are said to be in .005" increments of diameter.
That is because in muzzleloading there is no standard bore diameter.
Supposedly the smallest band (base) will lightly engrave, and each band engraves a bit deeper as you insert the bullet.
Soft lead does in fact obturate with black powder, so the REAL is to grab the rifling no matter your bore size.
I have shot 45acp bullets out of a muzzleloader, and they did stabilize, therefore I know they are obturating & grabbing the rifling.

[mooman76]

The Lee REALs have different size bands to aid in loading and it also helps to keep it going in straight. First band doesn't really engrave at all or barely does depending on bore size. They larger progressively with the top band should come out .017 over bore size but that depends on the bore size of your gun. The bands as people can see aren't very big so heavier loads will cause stripping of the bands. That's where a over powder wad comes into play and helps make the round more accurate. It helps keep the blow by pressure from destroying the bands and accuracy or at least that's the way I see it working.

[megasupermagnum]

I tried with a 100% wool felt wad, and went as low as 50 grains by volume. I couldn't hit a piece of paper at a measly 100 yards. I don't think we can blame the twist rate. What would be the ideal rate for a 320 grain real, 1:36"? They seem to shoot good from 1:48", and mines just a 1:28". I do have some real blackpowder I could try, but it wouldn't shoot for **** with BH 209 or 777. I've tried with and without a wad, and with 2 different lubes. I am getting the best castings I can provide, the driving bands are fully filled, and the weights don't vary but about 1 grain. I honestly think this is a problem with the QLA muzzle, and it makes sense now. I didn't know at the time, but I've tried all kinds of factory bullets. I don't think any sabot shoots bad, and the hornady FPB and Powerbelts shoot good. The only other full bore bullet I tried was a Federal bore-lok, which does not have a hollow base to flair, and that shot about the worst of anything besides these REAL's.

[kens]

I tried various things to shoot conicals out of a 1:66 (45cal) round ball barrel. For the most part I was using .45acp bullets cast soft.
Here is what I found that worked and not worked. all of these are full bore, no sabots.
Take a 45acp bullet and drill a hollow base, grease it, it works.
Take a 45acp bullet solid base, grease it, it don't work
Then I experimented with cloth patching.
I took thinnest muslin I could find, greased it, and cut it into narrow strips to lay as a X over the muzzle, seat the bullet & the X-patch wraps around the bullet.
The hollow based bullet doesnt like the x patch.
The solid base bullet does like the X patch.

May I suggest trying the cloth X patch method with the REAL?

[megasupermagnum]

The REAL bullets are already a good fit, no way they would go with any kind of patch. Even if I could, you think it could bring accuracy down from a shotgun pattern to 3" or smaller?

[kens]

the patch helped accuracy with my full bore bullets.
maybe if you try your small diameter REALS first with the patch, to see how tight they load

[megasupermagnum]

How much did it help? Are we talking cutting 4" down to 2"? Mine are shooting 18" plus, and probably tumbling. I'll give REAL's a try again, but not until I have the QLA muzzle cut off, and a proper crown cut.

[kens]

yes, it helped that much.

[tomme boy]

If they are tumbling then you are pushing them too fast. Or they are undersized too much. The felt wad between the slug and powder will help. But you need to slow them down. My TC rifles have 1 1-48 twist and 80-90 grs is about all that the slugs will handle. There is just not enough bearing surface on the slugs and they are stripping in the rifling.

[charlie b]

With a 1-28 twist you'd be better off with some longer bullets or firing sabots. As someone stated, if you want to fire the REAL's try backing off the powder a bit.

Try the Hornady Great Plains bullets, or, even better, try paper patching :) My Lyman GPH likes 450gn PP bullets and the Hornady's (sized to .501).

[OverMax]

Got a Goodwill store close by. Look for pewter things. Far East {small} animal figurines_picture frame or even a gaudy German beer mug. Those items? Some are made of as much as 98% tin. Ounce or two of tin in a 10 lb batch will help fill your mold out.
If you don't mind the wintergreen smell? Chance to OxYoke Wonder Lube. It's a much better lube than that Greasy Kids Stuff. i.e. T/Cs Bore Butter~~ish.

[mac1911]

Will LEE tumble libe work.
Im getting back to to real and blackhorn 209

[dondiego]

The LEE tumble lube may work for Blackhorn 209 but it is not recommended for black powder.

[white eagle]

can't say one way another about the Lee but I use a REAL
for Tom http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=51-300A-D.png,
it works real well and I get excellent groups at 50 yds with that boolit
he also makes one in 54 cal that I use and works equally as well

[rodwha]

can't say one way another about the Lee but I use a REAL
for Tom http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=51-300A-D.png,
it works real well and I get excellent groups at 50 yds with that boolit
he also makes one in 54 cal that I use and works equally as well

I like the looks of his version with the wider meplat vs the Lee style, though I'd need to blow out the driving bands a bit more. My Lee REAL (320 grn version) has a last band width of .517" and my bore, according to Lyman, should be close to .520". I've considered having my mold modified to give it a wider meplat, but then I like knowing what the BC value is (.189). Most people don't have a complaint on it's effectiveness, though I have read a few who weren't impressed.

[megasupermagnum]

I shot these with 50 grain (by volume) of blackhorn 209. I did not chronograph them, as they shot worse than 70 grains, but 70 grains only gives about 1450 fps. 50 grains should be in the ballpark of 1250 fps. I tried tin, I bought pure tin and added it 40-1, my bullets are fully filled out. Maybe the patch could help accuracy, if it acts kind of a sabot. I can't imagine it being anything but a real bear to shove down the barrel though. For one, I'm having my QLA removed, and barrel re-crowned. Step two, I'll try the REAL's again, but I will most likely go to a heavier bullet as some have suggested. I'll try maxi-balls first, as you can buy them from a store.

Again, not to be a jerk, just to eliminate the confusion...

1. I've loaded these from 50-120 grains of Blackhorn 209 (on 5 or more occasions), and tried 100 grains 777.
2. I am casting HOT, and with tin added. My bullets are fully filled out.
3. I sorted by weight, and by size.

They just plain don't shoot in my gun, and the internet is littered with hundreds of people in the same boat, all due to the counter bored muzzle on T/C muzzle loaders (QLA). I could shoot sabots, but I'd prefer not to, plus even buying in bulk they cost more than they should. That would be my last resort. Hornady FPB's shoot well from my gun, but at almost $1 each, I can't shoot too many.

[kens]

I have a CVA 1:28 twist, and my next experiment will be shooting 500S&W bullets. I anxious to see if they obturate like a powerbelt.

[mooman76]

Every ML gun is of it's own. Some guns just don't like certain things. Can you make it work if you keep trying? Probably but is it worth the effort and expense. Only each person can decide that. Some guns tend like about everything and some others can be very picky on what they like.