Bassackwards....too much tin

[StarMetal]

Bass,

Back a fairly lone time ago I mentioned that when I lived in Tulsa, Ok that I had been shooting at Tulsa's indoor shooting range and that I had bought some of their DEWC's to load for my target 38's. Previously I had been buying Speer and Hornady HBWC's and shot those with very good results. The Tulsa ones leaded really really bad, which amazed me because they were just a very light target load. I asked them about it and they apologized and said that they had cast those with too much tin in them. I had told you that too much tin in some cases would make your cast bullets lead your barrel and I didn't have an answer as to why. Well paging through my NRA Cast Bullet book for something else I came upon the answer. Here it is. Too much tin can cause excessive leading which is difficult to remover, being literally soldered to the barrel. What is not always recognized is that the more tin you add, the closer you come to a solder.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

Back a fairly lone time ago I mentioned that when I lived in Tulsa, Ok that I had been shooting at Tulsa's indoor shooting range and that I had bought some of their DEWC's to load for my target 38's. Previously I had been buying Speer and Hornady HBWC's and shot those with very good results. The Tulsa ones leaded really really bad, which amazed me because they were just a very light target load. I asked them about it and they apologized and said that they had cast those with too much tin in them. I had told you that too much tin in some cases would make your cast bullets lead your barrel and I didn't have an answer as to why. Well paging through my NRA Cast Bullet book for something else I came upon the answer. Here it is. Too much tin can cause excessive leading which is difficult to remover, being literally soldered to the barrel. What is not always recognized is that the more tin you add, the closer you come to a solder.

Joe


Joe,

Poppy cock and old wives tale. I can shoot babbit that has a composition of 49% tin and never see a fleck. Or I can shoot HTWW with zero tin and lead up the wazoo.

If a mixture, any mixture, leads, it is because something is out of whack. Lube, diameter, pressure, but no mix is more prone to .... "leading" than any other.

Now it is true that if a mix leads and it has tin, it will be harder to remove, but it is not more prone to leading simply because it has tin in it.

[StarMetal]

John,

That's true what you said about the babbit, but babbit isn't exactly a normal standard cast bullet alloy especially for low velocity 38 spcl target bullets. Also solders composition would be more like that target bullet then the babbit ones you shoot. I guarantee you that the diameter of those bullets I shot and the pressure of the loads weren't the problem. Come..go figure..typical 38 spcl wadcutter load of 2.7 grs of bullseye with a 148 gr bullet...there isn't much pressure there bud. At that speed and pressure no lube should work.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, there has to be a magic proportion ratio of tin and lead to make that happen. It is probably just as rare to formulate such a composition as it is to make real lino at home. You got all those impurities to talk about, and without their regulation you really don't know what you have in the pot. However, if the alloy strips at 800 fps, or it has zero slush time, it is a miracle. ... felix

[StarMetal]

One of the greatest rituals of bullet casting is the addition of tin to harden the metal. There is little advantage in adding as much as 10 % tin as a hardener. What is not always recognized is that the more tin you add, the closer you come to a solder. Too much tin can cause excessive leading which is difficult to remove, being literally soldered to the barrel. Excess tin and a good hot mold can result in smears wiped across the top of the mold block by the sprue plate. These impair the functions of the mold and are very difficult to remove without damage to the blocks. The writer picked up a bargain mold which was smeared but otherwise new. Chemical analysis indicated the smears contained about 30 % tin, corresponding with the composition of plumbers so called "common solder". The following table gives a numerical picture of what happens to lead-tin mixture as the tin is increased:

% Tin Melting Temp deg F Brinell Hardness
0 619 4
10 577 10
20 532 12
30 490 15
40 445 16
50 400 15
60 370 15

Obviously the greatest gain in hardness is made between zero and 10 % tin. The lowered melting point from added tin offers a strong argument for use of gas checks rather than adding tin to increase hardness beyond a moderate level.

The effects of antimony on melting point and hardness are:

% Antimony Melting Temp Deg F Brinell Hardness
0 619 4
6 572 6
8 554 16
10 516 17
15 482 18

Again, going beyond 8 % antimony gives very little improvement in hardness. This leads to the conclusion that a composition of 90 % lead, 5 % tin, and 5 % antimony with it's Brinell hardness of 16, is better than any solder like mixture. The development of type metals under engineering controls has produced still better alloys.

This is from the NRA Cast Bullet Book.

Felix...I don't buy for one minute that it's not easy to duplicate a solder mixture.

Joe

[felix]

Go ahead, Joe, and do it. Then submit 600 bucks to have an analysis done to prove it. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I'll bet you that if all the solders on the market were analyzed they wouldn't be consistant. I believe making solder accidently while making up a bullet alloy happens alot more time then you think. I also believe those fellows tha wrote that NRA book are pretty dang knowledgeable...had the Cast Boolit forum gotten that big headed that they know best now? Yeah I know, the subject gunrags will come up...but the NRA book folks aren't gunrag people.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Felix,

I'll bet you that if all the solders on the market were analyzed they wouldn't be consistant. I believe making solder accidently while making up a bullet alloy happens alot more time then you think. I also believe those fellows tha wrote that NRA book are pretty dang knowledgeable...had the Cast Boolit forum gotten that big headed that they know best now? Yeah I know, the subject gunrags will come up...but the NRA book folks aren't gunrag people.

Joe


Joe,

I guess that statement is maybe applicable to handguns. But it is like saying that all semi-wadcutters and wadcutters lead because they scrape out the blackbore condition ahead of them. While true, leading is entirely preventable with a better grade of lube. Or with more lube. If someone doesn't understand this fact, then tin can get the blame.

[45 2.1]

leading is entirely preventable with a better grade of lube. Or with more lube. If someone doesn't understand this fact, then tin can get the blame.

Your barking out on a limb, not up the main trunk.

[Bass Ackward]

Your barking out on a limb, not up the main trunk.


Bob,

That is my point exactly. There is no .... set way of doing something with cast. Several approaches can be created to reach the same result. It all depends on what actions a person takes to start out as to what problem solving steps need to be completed to achieve balance. What causes all the problems with cast are that individual corrections that were made tend to become that persons .... rule, focus, or standard procedure. And their thought process narrows to focus on a single problem as the only method to solving or avoiding the issue.

Arguments arguments are presented from that angle. "Tin causes leading". Except that the argument needs to apply to all situations to become a flat or blanket statement. If you remove the tin from a tin based mix, you get a pure lead bullet. So a similar statement would be that you need tin to go faster. It is misleading if the result of a harder bullet is not understood. But then one has to solve the dilema. Does tin really cause leading or does it allow higher velocity? Both statements are correct when understood.

[Iron River Red]

Far be it from me to advise the experienced folks of this site about the use of tin and its pros and cons, but... here are my observations and I hope this topic will continue as I see it as a good one.

I have found that when I'm running my molds and having added extra tin I get some good results and some undesirable effects also.

I get better mold fill out and detail as well as great looking bullets. I can't say they are any harder, but they do look good. The residue seems to build up under my sprue plates faster and is a pain to remove. I believe I can run the pot cooler and subsequently get a longer run before having to cool the mold.

The % of tin is actually low. Around 1 or 2% (including what I figure is in the wheel weights and the Lino).

I only add about .75% of the tin per se.

The diameter of the finished bullet seems to be more critical to avoid buildup rather than the amount of tin in the mix.

A friend of mine has the impression that a semi soft bullet and a little oversize actually shoots better. I tried the same in my revolvers and found his hypothesis to be true. I am using oversize bullets by .001" and am not worring about the hardness and have shot 300 rounds of 45LC for the experiment. I started with (100) 200gr rnfp and shot them at 800fps, then went to 155gr swc at 850 fps and finished with the 155gr swc at 1100fps and am only seeing a very slight build up in the cone and 1st 1/4" of barrel.

Before, I was shooting a bullet sized at the exact bore diameter of .452" and could only shoot about 200 rounds before being forced to clean. By the way the barrel was lapped and then slugged to find it was indeed .452" in caliber before starting the break in.

I guess the tin ratio has not become a factor in my mind yet.

Maybe there is more I need to consider in light of the above testing examples...

Please advise.

red

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I suggest you write the fellows of the NRA Cast Bullet book and tell them they don't know squat. Tin helps the alloy fill the mold better and to a certain percentage hardens the bullet. Too much tin is not beneficial. Funny how you're hung up on this lube thing when the NRA did a very extensive test of a mind boggling number of lubricants. You could have saved them alot of work and trouble Bass, by calling them and explaining what their problem was. I also wonder how (according to you) the ********* at Tulsa Shooters indoor range came to the conclusion they put too much tin in the mix??

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

I suggest you write the fellows of the NRA Cast Bullet book and tell them they don't know squat. Tin helps the alloy fill the mold better and to a certain percentage hardens the bullet. Too much tin is not beneficial. Funny how you're hung up on this lube thing when the NRA did a very extensive test of a mind boggling number of lubricants. You could have saved them alot of work and trouble Bass, by calling them and explaining what their problem was. I also wonder how (according to you) the ********* at Tulsa Shooters indoor range came to the conclusion they put too much tin in the mix??

Joe


Joe,

You are misinterpreting again. Hung up on lubes? Take a deep breath and read on.

What those guys in Tulsa should have said was that they put too much tin in the bullets that made them to hard and they leaded because they didn't obturate and seal at low pressures causing gas cutting. That is the correct way to say that. Not giving a false impression that tin causes leading.

[StarMetal]

John,

Kaka, yeah Kaka....you see the NRA chart and article I posted here? Too much tin doesn't make it harder. Didn't obturate? Get real, the bore on that Model 19 Smith I use to shoot alot is like .354 groove...hell the bullets were .358 and the Smith does have decent cylinder throats too. Gas cutting? huh? 2.7 grs of Bulleyes barely makes enough gas to pop those things out of the barrel, concidering how much escapes from cylinder/barrel gap. Very very anemic loads. John, get down from that tree, wrong tree....no victory squirrel in that tree pardner.

Joe

[45 2.1]

What causes all the problems with cast are that individual corrections that were made tend to become that persons .... rule, focus, or standard procedure. And their thought process narrows to focus on a single problem as the only method to solving or avoiding the issue.

You know, thats what I just said! Your focus on lube is whats giving you problems with your load. This is the second time i've tried to tell you that without telling you the answer straight out, as you requested earlier.

[Bass Ackward]

Joe,

I already told you that I shot 49% tin. And this was at or close to 60,000 psi. Regardless of what else was in the babbit, if .... "tin" .... were going to "cause" leading, the opportunity was there. It did not. Since this board is supposed to be education based, I can not agree with your simple statement, "too much tin, causes leading."

The only thing that I have found in my year or two of shooting cast that causes leading is, not adapting to the conditions presented from gun and load and shooting rate.

I have shot plastic and rubber too. If your point is that no one should buy solder to use solely for bullet casting material, well, then I whole heartedly agree. There are cheaper solutions. Just say so. But you can get solders made to different concentrations with antimony. And if you adapt to conditions, I am sure you can shoot pure tin too. I intend to try it this winter just to see. I have to get my hands on some first. I will let you know the results.

[felix]

Red, use just enough tin to assure good boolit fillout within the mold. No need to really calculate percentages, just add in smaller amounts that you think at first. Different casting days requires different amounts of tin to make the mold work exquisitely. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

You know, thats what I just said! Your focus on lube is whats giving you problems with your load. This is the second time i've tried to tell you that without telling you the answer straight out, as you requested earlier.


Bob,

What are you talking about? I have mentioned nothing about problems with lube or my loads here. Nor did I ask for any answer, straight out or otherwise.

The whole thrust of the discussion was did tin cause leading. I will prove or disprove this later by shooting pure tin since I can recover my bullets.

[StarMetal]

John,

Due to the server problems there are a few posts I made and one that Felix made that are missing now. I really don't want to rewrite them as I have to be in that exact thought train to redo them.

I can get you the addresses you need to tell the NRA boys they are full of kaka. You don't have to prove anything to me, I didn't experiment with tin nor write the article.

There are times in this world where new technology has proven older theories wrong. I don't think your tin one is going to prove the NRA boys wrong.

As to straight answers that's the posts that are missing. Felix asked Bob why he doesn't give a straight answer and the post of mine that explained why Bob doesn't do that is the other one missing. I will tell some about this. Bob doesn't give straight or all the answers because he makes people think first, he stimulates their thinking process. This bears out with your last post about you're now going to try to shoot pure tin...see got you thinking and you come up with that future experiment.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, I really don't THINK that tin is the culprit in a boolit that leads up a barrel to the hilt. It is the combination of the elements in the mix, and most specifically the proportions of each, and how the boolit was cooled, all making the elements move around in a non-beneficial way which can cause micro cracks where stuff can most easily break off the boolit as the boolit travels. That, coupled with some blowby, or something like this, could confuse the issue even more. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix

Tin is never the single culprit or always the only one. With all due respect you or none of us know what type of test the NRA boys conducted, what guns, what caliber, what bullets, what alloys, what speed, what powders, what sizing, what condition of the bores, etc. I'm just reporting what happen to me and what the Tulsa boys said the problem was with their bullets and what I later remembered reading in the NRA Cast Bullet book. That's it....how can all of you blow this up out of proportion and none the less direct the statement "too much tin can lead your barrel and moulds" ? Take it up with the NRA boys.

Joe

[Iron River Red]

I say less tin the better. The stuff is so expensive I am trying to get away with the least possible.

It's hard enough to make a buck selling lead bullets anyway...

If one adds too much tin to the alloy, I can guarantee it will cause your load to be lighter and present no buildup whatsoever.

(especially in the wallet area)

:lovebooli

[Bret4207]

I believe anymore than 6-8% tin or antimony is getting to the wastefull point. Col Harrisons tests proved this out and the Lyman boys, Phil Sharpe, Elmer, Earl Naramore and a bunch of others said pretty much the same thing. I also don't for a second buy the idea that there's any "soldering" going on in a barrel. I've done a lot of soldering on steel and without a good flux, and sometimes even with a good flux, it's a bear to get steel soldered. It takes a bunch of heat and the slightest trace of oil or wax or grease (lube) can screw the whole thing up. I think the "soldered" effect is lead torn off and pressure smeared into the numerous cracks and crannies our modern bore scopes show us are in even the best barrels. A revolver is real easy to lead with undersize, hard bullets regardless of lube. We've all seen it. That forcing cone catches all sorts of heat and trauma and is always relativly rough. We're pretty sure gases rush by the undersize bullet and tear lead away pushing onto the barrel surfaces under tremendous pressure. Thats all old theory. If the solder theory was to work then why wouldn't shooting some nice clean copper jacketed bullets down the barrel clean it right out? All it does is iron the leading into the nooks and crannies. Maybe an absolutely square nosed bullet would work if enough oversize, I can't say. Again, if the solder theory was to hold then why do we get the build up on aluminum moulds? Or on sprue plates? The lead isn't soldered on, it scrapes right off. A real soldered surface will always have a small amount of solder remaining in the pores of the metal which is visible. I just wish soldering was that easy. I'm sure you could shoot pure tin bullets with the same sucess we have with pure lead, or zinc or copper or steel or gilding metal. Yeah, it'd take a bit of fooling around, but you could do it. Also, you can solder with pure lead on some types of metal and the different alloys from maybe 10-90 tin/lead on up all will work with some sucess given the right conditions. It may not be good solder, but it will work for some things. I think the lost posts have some of us misunderstanding what the others are trying to say.

[felix]

Yeah, Joe, I have no idea about what the NRA folks said, nor do I care. That's why I don't repeat stuff what other folks said unless I know for sure they are telling the truth AS I KNOW IT but have never written about it here, or elsewhere. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

If you don't care then why you posting here? What you said about knowing the truth could apply to so many or nearly all things in life Felix. So am I correct in assuming that you don't believe in alot of things in that NRA book? Notice too that I never mentioned Mr. Harrison's name in my post, I said "the NRA boys".

Joe

[waksupi]

I don't really care to believe and repeat something, if I don't know it's the truth. If I do, and I am proved wrong, I look like the fool, rather than the originator of the tale.

[StarMetal]

Ric,

We go throught life repeating things we don't know to be true like from the very first days at school. Example: You think all that stuff they taught us about U.S. History is 100 % the truth? Yeah I know, you don't go around teaching what you learned about history in school. Just an example. So...what do we do now..burn all our books or confiscate them until we can prove them right?

Joe

[floodgate]

Guysa;

I don't have a dog in this brawl, but one thing I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that addition of tin lowers the melting temperature of the alloy a LOT: at 50 / 50, the "slush" point drops from 621.5F for pure lead to about 450F, while the 62% Tin / 38% Lead eutectic melts at 361.4F. So, hot powders and high friction may be the REAL cuplrit here. But as Joe's table shows, above 10% Tin you aren't gaining hardness, and are just shooting your $$$ away. Just my 2 cents.

floodgate

[Bullshop]

Tpr Bret
You have got me curious. You said something about lots of heat required to solder steel, That made me wonder how they tinned the old military actions and barrels in some cases. I have seen a number of rollers with a silver colored finish reffered to as tinned. This seems to have been a comon finish applied to mil surp rifles before 1900. I am working on acquiring one now and it still has lots of the tin finish left but is fadeing or wearing thin. This is not the hard nickle finish we see flake off some old guns. I have also seen solid cakes of metal called wipeing solder, is this what they used? Did they realy have to get those old guns that hot to do this or would it not require as much heat to just smear it on?
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

I have a friend that has the families radiator shop business, he has been doing it since he could stand. It's in the technique, which isn't hard either.

[Bass Ackward]

Guys,

Well, I read these posts for three basic reasons. First is to help others and cast boolits. Second is to remember steps and techniques that I haven't used for awhile. This keeps my mind open to other / alternate methods so I don't get stuck in a rut. Third is to learn something new all together.

I don't use these boards to proove anyone wrong or straighten anyone person or organization out. They are free to read these boards also and gleen from them what they want. If they don't, then its their loss, not mine.

But I think we are all coming at this from different angles and even I myself am guilty of changing it. Some folks here are talking about economical use of tin. Some are talking over use of tin and pure lead mixes. I have passed this point because this is pretty standard fair that hasn't changed, and I haven't done anything in my experience that disprooves it, in 100 years.

But what was different was that tin causes leading. Some went into a tin lead only discussion. I was looking at the element tin by itself. And then there is Bob trying to make me think when I need all the cells these days on the subject at hand.

I still believe that tin does not cause leading. But the addition can cause actions that a shooter is unprepared to change or adapt for as it increases. But I will explore this farther this winter to a conclusion.

What I think I would like to see is a section of this board dedicated to experimentation. You could call it .... "Experimentation". Ideas could be proposed anywhere on this site and then someone could decide to run an experiment if it interested them. Then they could post their results. Or they could ask for input on HOW to conduct a test.

I like learning. And one of the ways I do that is through testing. But I don't have time to run all the experiments I do now from my own thought generation machine. But we all tell floks how to do things all the time. This section could tell them how to test it for themselves. Just an idea.

[David R]

See EXPIERMENT

[carpetman]

Try to solder two nails together. They are somewhat similar to gun metal. Cant do it,there is a reason. Nails are sized in pennies and if you soldered them together you would be doubling your pennies and in economics class they always taught that to double your pennies takes years. Now try soldering two pennies together. This can be done. May have to possibly clean them and a little sandpaper helps. This is not to contradict that it takes years to double pennies---you started with two and only have two. But you could solder them because they are copper. BTW Sheridan air rifles have either a brass or copper barrel---I've heard both,not for sure which,but I know of no firearm with such a barrel. Now back to those pennies you soldered together. Don't touch them when first soldered---it took a whole bunch of heat---much hotter than what a gun barrel gets. Never tried it,but I don't think you could melt solder on an exhaust manifold and they get hotter by far than the typical gun barrel. I think you can get silver solder to stick to steel. But except for the Lone Ranger,not many around using silver bullets. The NRA boys said he had a leading problem. And that's why Glocks were invented.
Speaking of the Lone Ranger,did you hear about him and Tonto going camping? In the middle of the night the Lone Ranger woke up Tonto and said look up,what do you see? Tonto said I see stars,millions of stars. The Lone Ranger asked,and what does that tell you? Tonto said many things Kingemsobie(or however you spell it). It tells me the creator just made us a small part of a universe. I can tell time by the stars. I can navigate by the stars. What does it tell you Kingemsobie? Lone Ranger said it tells me someone stole our tent.

[Iron River Red]

Now,

Sitting here trying to keep up with the mud slinging is bout like watching the WWE Raw bunch. (cept here its more fun)

The whole idea of moving this discussion to the Experimentation area is a good one. Who is going to volunteer to conduct it?

I have to say in all seriousness, I have taken advise and ideas from both Starmetal and Bass and have found both men are quite sane (and knowledgeable too!) It looks like we should all take a lesson from Carpetman...

don't forget to laugh! We have all been mistaken or taken out of context at some point in our lives. When we are writing our thoughts in a forum such as this one, its easy to short cut the conversation to save typing. So lets not loose sight of the fact that no one has all the answers. Not even the NRA...

Whoever decides to take the reigns in the experiment can count me in. I'll cast and shoot the same mix for comparison.

I'm gonna go check my tent now...

[smilie=p:

[Bret4207]

Bullshop- I think that type of "tinning" was dome after a pickeling process if we're thinking of the same thing. I know near pure tin is much easier to solder with than with more lead. I think the old tinning processes involved some pretty harsh chemical processes. It usually takes a good dose of experience to be a good solderer. The guys working in the old bodyshops and radiator shops made it look like childs play. Alot different than using Hi-Force 44 and our modern fluxes, much less the paste type silver solders. Those are the ticket for sights and such.

[Bret4207]

Bullshop- I went and found an old plumbing book I have and it mentions wiping solder. It was apparently used on the old cast iron drain lines. It was melted in a plubmers furnace and poured into the joint or the the joint was heated and the solder "wiped" into the joint. The book doesn't say but I get the impression it's 60/40 or 50/50 lead/tin, with my suspision leaning towards the 60/40 or maybe even 70/30. They also pured this stuff over the old "oakum" in the joints. I can remember caulking a zillion cracks in our old house with oakum when I was a kid. Had a real distinct odor. Of course we used real creosote on foundation wood and anything in contact with the ground back then, along with lead paint, real turpentine, asbestos pipe wrap, red dye #14 and god knows what else. A gun was considered an appropriate gift for an 10 year old. A knife for a 5 year old. It's a wonder I'm still alive.

You've got me curious on the tinned rolling block. I've never seen one. I suppose it could be an early form of electro plating. I know tin ware was very common and that was plain steel with an almost galvanized tin coating. We have a Hoosier kitchen cabinet from the 10's or 20's and the flour box is tinned. It's not very thick either, almost like a plated surface. I've seen '09 Argentine Mausers that looked chromed, but was told it was a tnning process.

Someone here must have some insight on this.