Problem with way oversize boolits from mold - any ideas why?

[bedbugbilly]

Hopefully someone can explain this to me.

I've been casting for 50 + years so am not new to it - but I'm pretty "low tech" as far as alloys, etc. I basically cast with two different things - pure lead for muzzleloading and "range lead" for everything else.

So here is my issue. I picked up a Lyman 445-599 mold which is a hollow base minie ball. According to my reference charts, this boolit was designed for 45 caliber rifles with Numeric barrels such as used on the old H &
A underhammer percussion rifles, some Navy Arms, etc. - primarily Numrich barrels though which have a history of being a tad bit tight and undersize.

My rifle is a vintage H & A underhammer - 45 cal - Numrich Barrel. I've owned probably three of these over the years and all have been tight bores so am familiar with that.

Today, I decided to try the Lyman 445-599 mold our and cast up a couple hundred or so. At least that was the plan.

I'm using about as pure lead as you can get - medical lead. And, since the mold is designed for a muzzleloader, it's supposed to be used with soft lead. Goes without saying.

I cast up perhaps 20 and let them cool down. I then got the rifle out and went to do a quick check on the fit. To add to the information, I am an experienced rifled musket shooter (.58 cal) so I know how a minie "should" fit - I like about .002 clearance. Well, I tried the 445-599 cast and they would not even begin to fit my barrel. I then grabbed my dial calipers and did a quick check and they measured at .455 NOT .445. I thought I may be off so I did a quick run of a couple though a Lee .452 sizer and it was a tight fit through it - so my measurements of .455 was right. And, I certainly cannot size them down .010".

So . . . my question is . . . . why would they Lyman 455-599 end up being .010 oversize? (.455 instead of .445). I realize that Lyman molds can be "off" and have found that through the years but certainly not .010"?

I really want to try this boolit in my under hammer - but after this experience I'm very hesitant to try another Lyman 445-599 mold for fear of ending up with the same results. If I can't get this solved, then I'll check with Tom at Accurate to see if he could cut one that would give the correct cast measurements that is needed for the Numeric barrel.

Am I missing something or do I need to change something as far as casting with this mold to get the .445 measurement that is needed and which the Lyman mold is "supposed" to give?

Normally I use a propane hotplate. Today, I was using my new Lee bottom pour - a whole different story - and I was ladle casting out of it. I was casting on the hotter side in order to get good skirt fill.

Thanks for any suggestions or input - greatly appreciated.

[runfiverun]

is it marked 455 or is it marked 445.
are they coming out round or part 445 and part 455.

I missed what they weigh but a 455 diameter and about 200-250grs would be for a webley or older colt revolver.
just some thoughts.

[bedbugbilly]

Sorry - I should have given more info. It is a 250 grain hollow base minie ball mold. It's listed on the following chart, all the way to the bottom at the beginning of the muzzle loading boolits/minies.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Ideal-Lyman_Molds/Ideal-Lyman_Mold_Descriptions.html

The mold is clearly marked Lyman "445599". On the chart the link above goes to, it explains a littler below the picture of the boolit that it is designed for the smaller/tighter Numerich 45 caliber barrels. It is supposed to cast a nominal .445 diameter.

I haven't slugged my H & A Numrich barrel but instead of using a .440 round ball - which you normally would for a 45 caliber, I have to use a .437 round ball. (I have a single cavity Lyman .437 round ball mold). The bores on the Numeric barrels seem to run about .003 undersize.

My Lyman 445599 blocks are used - I didn't buy them new - but they are unaltered and no one has tried to polish the cavity larger, etc. The boolits dropped round/concentric - but they were .455 instead of .445. I have looked and as far as I can tell, Lyman didn't make one like this in .455 (i.e. 455599).

I failed to mention that I also cast four other boolit designs including 575-213 OS (old style .58 cal. Mine Ball), the .575 hollow base semi wad cutter and a batch of .437 round balls - all from Lyman blocks. I also cast some of the Lee 50 caliber hollow base improved Minies. Same batch of lead, same setting on the pot - and all came out spot on as far as what their dimensions were supposed to be.

That is why this has me puzzled as to why this particular mold is casting .010 larger than what it is marked and what it is supposed to be.

I'm not "bad mouthing" Lyman in any way. We all know that all manufactures can have "lemons" and over the past fifty years, I've personally had good luck with Lyman/Ideals as well as other brands. This one though is making me scratch my head over it. I obviously can't use it for my rifle and can't downsize them that much and have any lube grooves, etc. left. It just seems odd that it would be cut that much oversize - undersize I can understand as happens when the cherry gets worn - but those molds are usually marked with a US (undersize).

I've run across several other of the same mold but am very hesitant to pay the price on them not knowing if I would be buying the same problem. That's why I posted - a person can always learn and perhaps I need to change something I'm doing but I can't see what it is - it's a hollow base BP boolit which requires soft lead - which I'm using and I have to pour at the setting I'm using in order to get skirt fill out and even fill without it cooling off in layers. Just sort of got me stymied.

And, perhaps it was a "screw up" at Lyman when the mold was made that didn't get caught. But it seems like it would have been done right since it was designed for the undersize Numerich bores and needed to cast at a nominal .445.

Thanks for any info, input, etc. It's greatly appreciated.

[Grmps]

Often Lyman mold cavity sizes are off on molds made in the last 5 - 10 years. They may have used a 455 cherry and labeled the mold 445, or they just messed up again. I'd call Lymann and tell them what's going on and tell them to send you the correct mold and if they want your mold back they should send you a mailing label. You shouldn't have to pay shipping for their mistake,

[Walter Laich]

you didn't say if it was a new mold or a used one.

could be someone buggered it up and decided to make a few bucks selling it off (we call these folks "low lifes")

[runfiverun]

you can't just lap a steel mold out 10 thou without losing a bunch of the details,
it would take a pretty skilled machinist to cut a mold that much larger.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I have that mold also, purchased to load in a Tarus Judge. If I can find the few bullets I cast, I'll measure them. Won't get done until at least the weekend after Labor Day as I'm heading out to KS to set up my deer blind, shoot doves, fish, and visit my mother and siblings. Probably wind up fixing fence or chasing escapees too. If you have not heard from me in a couple of weeks, PM me to action. If my mold is the correct size I'll trade you.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks all.

just to clarify, the mold was purchased "used" so no way will Lyman take it back or exchange it and I wouldn't expect them to.

As far as being "altered" in any way - it is unaltered. No one has tried to make it bigger, polish it out, etc. - it came that way. And the boolits I cast from it were about as perfectly round/concentric as you could get - just .010 oversize. I pushed a couple though my .452 Lee push through sizer and the results showed that they were perfectly round/concentric.

My guess is that it was probably a screw up at the factory. It didn't come in a box so I really don't know how old it is but my guess would be probably within the last ten years or so. And as stated, that may be why someone dumped it and I was the unlucky recipient! :-) I suppose I could have Whitacre or similar cut me a custom barrel for the mold but that's stretching it a might bit too far. LOL

I'll probably end up selling it but will certainly describe what it casts and the size. It's a neat boolit but I don't know what else it could be used in that it might work for. I was hoping this would all work out for my H & A but I guess that for everything that doesn't work out, it makes you appreciate those things that do work out all the more! What is it they say "My glass is half full . . . not half empty". :-) I'm just glad I only cast a few and then tried them instead of spending a lot of time casting and then checking - I had intended to spend a couple of days pouring them to have a good supply! Guess I'll be casting more of the .437 round balls until I get a mold that will work.

[Dusty Bannister]

I looked at the reference and am wondering why not try a gently tapered push through size die. You may want to spray a little case lube on before running it through the sizer to make it easy. It will then be the size you really want, and at a fraction of the cost of a new mold. Plus you might find another barrel that needs the larger bullet.

[beagle]

Just for grins, check to see if the halves close completely with the plug installed. With pure lead you can have a pretty big gap and not get finning. Maybe somewhere along the line someone mixed HB plugs. An oversize plug will actually "beagle" a mould and still produce good looking bullets. Worth a try and don't cost anything./beagle

[popper]

I'm using about as pure lead as you can get - medical lead Not near pure lead, pretty much WW lead. It will drop bigger.

[rmark]

http://www.fellingfamily.net/isolead/index.html

[Larry Gibson]

Can you post picture(s) of the bullet and mould? Sounds like a 454613 to me. That is described as a 265 grain Minie designed specifically for the Lyman Plains Rifle with the 1-48” twist. Combining characteristics of both the solid and hollow-base designs, the #454613’s top scraping band is sized to engrave lightly while loading, while the base cavity features a heavy skirt capable of handling heavy charges.

[stubert]

I bought a used Lyman mold a few years ago on E-bay that had visable light showing through the mold halves. I called Lyman, they had me send it in. It couldn't be repaired but they did give me a $60.00 credit towards the mold of my choice. And YES I told them I bought it used. They are good to deal with.

[Grmps]

I've got several of the "USED"(maybe cast once or twice) newer Lyman molds cheap. When I tried them the cavities were off or the wrong size.
A 4 cavity 357 446 had over 4 thou difference between the largest and smallest cavity.

Stubert, I'm glad they treated you well. Lyman's going to have to get back to their roots with quality control and customer service IF they earn back the respect they used to have.
They are competing with RCBS, Dillon and several custom mold shops with stellar service, warranty, and quality
Just my 2 cents worth.......

[bedbugbilly]

Larry-I'll try and get some good photos tomorrow in the daylight and get them posted along with dimensions, wt., etc.

Just to clarify - the blocks close tightly and the base plug is not oversize and it certainly appears original to the mold although there is no real way to know as they are not numbered to the mold. It isn't keeping blocks separated in any way.

As far as sizing these to .445 - it isn't going to work. They are too big and by the time they would be sized, the grease rings would be way out of whack. When I pushed one through my .452 Lee sizer, I did it base fist in order to push on the flat nose and not deform the hollow base. They sized to .452 O.K. - some deformation to the grease rings. But there is no way they could be sized down another .007".

I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say Larry. I'll go google the 454-213 that you mention and take a look at it.

Thanks and I'll get photos posted as soon as I can.

[bedbugbilly]

I was able to get some photos of the mold/boolit this morning so am posting them.

The mold in question is a Lyman 445-599. This is a hollow base “minie ball”. According to my listing of Lyman and Ideal molds, it is described as follows:

“445599 – A 250 grain Minie with three scraping grooves and a reasonably sturdy skirt. Originally designed for 1-56” rates of twist this bullet does a bit better in the faster 1-22” rate of twist. If used in the 1-56” twist start with a fairly light charge and increase it by slight increments until the desired accuracy is obtained.

Note: The #44599 and #445369 cast a nominal .445” bullet and are suitable only for rifles with a .445”-.446” bore. If you own one of the H&R .45’s, Numrich .45’s, or a Navy Arms Hawken .45, these are the conicals for you. There are other suitable guns on the market and the best practice is to slug the barrel and determine the bore size by measuring the lead slug with a micrometer.”
203017
In the photo of the blocks, it can be seen that it is clearly stamped “445599”. The mold is also stamped “64” which I believe would be the cherry number and a “H” which I am assuming stands for “Hollow”?

I have put a photo of the boolit showing the profile and the hollow base. On the far right is an Ideal 575-213 OS (Old Style) Minie ball for comparison. Please ignore the defects in the boolits as these were my “first pours” as I go5 5h3 mold up to temperature.

So here are the facts again . . . .

I was using what I purchasd as 99 + % pure lead that I purchased from a member on this site (medical lead). And thanks for the posts on “medical lead” and the education on it – I learned a lot! ☺

I was using a Lee Pro 4-20 electric bottom pour. This was new and the rirst time I have used it – I have ladle poured for 50 + years and this bottom pour was NOT a good experience for me but that’s another story. It worked well as far as melting and I did like the temperature adjustment as I have always used a propane hotplate. After having prolems, I went to ladle pouring what I was casting and these were ladle cast. As a not of interest, the 575-213 shown on the far right picture of the boolits was cast at the same session with the same lead and they were spot on dimension and weight wise. And pot was 2/3 full.

O.K. Here is the nitty gritty.

I cast around twenty of these boolits. Today, I grabbed five random ones and here were the results.

Overall length: .765”
Diameter: All five measured at .455” (supposed to cast a nominal .445”)
Weights: (on electronic digital scale)

267.3 gr.
267.1 gr.
266.7 gr.
267.5 gr.
267.3 gr.

As with any cast, I realize that grain weight can vary and I have never worried about that. BUT . . . . acoording to the Lyman/Ideal information these are supposed to be a 250 grain boolit. I can understand that the extra 17 grains or so would be as a result of the fatter diameter of .455.

Base pin seems to fit decently and does not keep the halves from closing tightly. There is a very little bit of “looseness” and I got a spot of “flash” on the bottom of the skirt on a couple but thought nothing of it as I sometimes get the same thing on both of my 575-213 molds, especially when the mold is hot and I’m pouring hot to insure complete skirt fill.

SO . . . . I am completely puzzled as to why they are dropping .010 oversize. I own quite a few Lyman/Ideal molds and have always had pretty good luck with them. I’m wondering it this is a “fluke mold” that was cut oversize OR, is it something I am doing and need to change? In reality, this mold and the boolits were poured the same way as I do all of my hollow base, RB, etc. iron molds.

According to the description for the mold, these were made to shoot in the tighter Numrich barrels. I got the mold to shoot the boolits in an older H & A under hammer rifle. I have also included a photo of the rifle. The bore is as pristine as can be but the rifle was a “basket case” when I bought it. The stock was cracked badly at the wrist, butt plate broken, ramrod thimble messed up, etc. I was able to get it back in to good shape, I poured a pewter nose cap, made a new brass butt plate, etc. I have not slugged the ore of this rifle. Normally in a 45 caliber, I would use a .440 round ball. On this barrel, I am using a .437 round ball which is an excellent fit with a patch. I am guessing that the bore will slug at .446 to .447 which is what the barrels slugged on the other two I owned like this rifle years ago. With a Minie ball, I like to keep them at .002 undersize of the bore so a .445 like this mold is supposed to cast would be perfect.

I have not called Lyman to inquire as to what may be wrong with this set of blocks. Several years ago, I had to contact them on several other of their products and I was not happy with the customer service representatives that I talked with those times. I pretty much got the “runaround” and it seemed that they both couldn’t answer as to what the issue was nor could they have cared less.

I have not been able to find a mold like this that they made only in .455 and this one may have been “mis stamped”. Or perhaps it was just a “mistake” and those things happen. I don’t feel that I can run this through a sizer and size down to .445 as it will pretty much destroy the rings/grooves.

If somebody sees something that I have done wrong or have a solution, I’d sure like to hear it. Thanks for your patience and any input you might have – greatly appreciated!

NOTE: Had some problem posting the photos and the rifle photo ended up being posted int he text! Sorry about that!

[Larry Gibson]

Note the 454613 is described as a 265 grain Minie which is also what yours are close to weighing.

[bedbugbilly]

Larry - I think you may be spot on and these blocks were "mis-cut" and/or "mis-stamped". While it isn't going to work in the rifle I needed it for, I'm going to hang on to it and cast some more up and stick 'em up on the shelf. They may work as a "paper patch" in another barrel I have. At least it would be fun to see if they would.

Now to find another 445-599 mold that drops them at the right size!

Thanks much - appreciate it.

Jim

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Turns out I have the 454613. It has a profile the same as 445369, and has an as-cast diameter of .454.

[oldblinddog]

The pic of the 445599 in the link above looks just like his mold and cast bullet. It appears to me to be the correct bullet to number match. I think it is the alloy as mentioned by popper in post #11.

[runfiverun]

you'd have to have an alloy of about 30% antimony 3% copper and 20% tin to gain 10 thousands over pure lead
I think the mold is simply mis-cut, or mis marked.

[bedbugbilly]

I greatly appreciate everybody's input - it has certainly been a "learning experience" so all wasn't for nil.

In regards to the oversize being attributed to the alloy - which is supposed to be almost pure lead - I'm thinking not as I cast other boolits from the same pot and all came out to the correct dimentions of he molds I ws using. If the lead was the cause for the oversize - those would have been off as well and they wee right on spec.

I'm guessing that this mold was either mis-cut or mis-stamped. I've marked it and have decided keep ti as I may be able to try it as a "paper patch" in another barrel I have on the rack. I'm now searching for a 445-599 that is cut correctly and will drop them at .445.

[NoAngel]

Frankford Arsenal mold release.

The stuff is absolutely useless for anything....but this.


I have an Arsenal mold for a 230g round nose 45. It came marked .455 and drops about .456!
I powder coat these so needless to say that's way too much.
I carefully masked off the mold faces leaving the cavities exposed and gave them a good coat. Set it in the sun to dry and started casting. The first ones fell .450-.451. After things settled in it casts .451-.452 and has stayed with me for several thousand so far. When/if they start getting too big again I'll acetone wash it clean and start it all over.

Being as the stuff is pretty cheap and no sane caster really wants the garbage you'll likely find someone willing to give some to you. It's how I got mine. Lol!!!

I did a fairly light coat. For the amount of reduction you need, a couple light coats should get you to a point where you can size them back without much effort or deformation.

You got nothing to lose for try it.


Just coat the cavities only though. Get any on the faces and you're defeating your purpose.

[bedbugbilly]

Just to clear it up - I was able to get a different set of 445-599 blocks that had a different cherry number on it. Unfortunately, the base pin was missing but Decided to take a chance on it that the base pin I have just might fit it. When I got the blocks, I was nicely surprised that the base pin I had WOULD work - in fact it was a very good fit. I poured a half dozen today once I got the mold/base pin warmed up and they all fell right at .445 like they are supposed to! Very little grain difference in the five - right at 250 grains + or - a couple of grains each way. Tried them in the bore of my H & A under hammer and they are a perfect fit.

I used the same lead, etc. that I did the other day so the first mold I got was obviously mis-stamped or mis-cut by Lyman.

Alls well that ends well! :-)

Jim

[runfiverun]

sucks you had to buy two molds,, but you now have what your need.

[swheeler]

Friday afternoon mold, the guy was thinking about the 3 B's instead of what he was doing! You got what you want now and that's good:drinks: