45/70 Billy Dixon

[darrell.fisher26]

Looking for help/tips for building loads up using Black Powder. I have a 45/70 with a 32 inch barrel 1/18 twist made by Pedrisoli. Currently using 535 grain cast bullets from a Lyman mold (457132). Been using IMR 5744. Any help would be appreciated!

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[Themoose]

It's been over 20 years, so I may be off. but I used to load for a C. Sharps in 45-70 using the Lyman postell with 62 1/2 gr Goex cartridge grade black under a hard felt wad. I pan lubed bullet using beeswax, muphy's oil soap and neat's foot oil.. used to shoot steel with it out to 500 yds.... you don't have to go fast to stay accurate....

[Lead pot]

You will most likely get more help for looking for a smokeless load here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?31-Single-Shot-Guns

If you wand a black powder load you might start with enough powder in the case till the wad and bullet base compresses it .100" of 2F and shoot 5 rounds and add a grain or two till you find a good shooting load.

[John Boy]

Looking for help/tips for building loads up using Black Powder. I have a 45/70 with a 32 inch barrel 1/18 twist made by Pedrisoli. Currently using 535 grain cast bullets from a Lyman mold (457132).
Primer - Large Rifle
Powder - any FFg black powder available to you, 68 to 70 grains
Bullet - Lyman Postell (457132) - lubed with a black powder lube
Case - Anneal them ... http://www.texas-mac.com/Annealing_Case_Necks.html
Case - champher the inside of of the case mouth with a champhering tool
Case - Mouth has to be expanded 0.001 to 0.002 and slightly belled to seat the bullet ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/reloading-dies/rcbs-neck-expander-dies/45-70-government-rcbs-expander-die-only-rcb20957
Pour powder into case with a drop tube ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/brass-oak-drop-tube-for-black-powder-cartridge-droptube2
* Compression Die - lightly compress the powder column ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/complete-ignition-black-powder-compression-die-bmgpes45
Wad - seated on top of powder column before seating the bullet
Bullet - 1:20 alloy seated with seating die and when doing so - lightly remove the case mouth bell created with the expander die

[Lumpy grits]

Will shoot far better with REAL BP than white.
What alloy are you casting?
LG

[darrell.fisher26]

Primer - Large Rifle
Powder - any FFg black powder available to you, 68 to 70 grains
Bullet - Lyman Postell (457132) - lubed with a black powder lube
Case - Anneal them ... http://www.texas-mac.com/Annealing_Case_Necks.html
Case - champher the inside of of the case mouth with a champhering tool
Case - Mouth has to be expanded 0.001 to 0.002 and slightly belled to seat the bullet ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/reloading-dies/rcbs-neck-expander-dies/45-70-government-rcbs-expander-die-only-rcb20957
Pour powder into case with a drop tube ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/brass-oak-drop-tube-for-black-powder-cartridge-droptube2
* Compression Die - lightly compress the powder column ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/complete-ignition-black-powder-compression-die-bmgpes45
Wad - seated on top of powder column before seating the bullet
Bullet - 1:20 alloy seated with seating die and when doing so - lightly remove the case mouth bell created with the expander dieOutstanding! Thank you for the info! What black powder do you recommend? Also have you ever shot without the wad in the bullet? Looking at the rules for the Quigley match it looks like your not aloud to have a wad in your load.

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[darrell.fisher26]

Will shoot far better with REAL BP than white.
What alloy are you casting?
LGThank you for the reply! Been shifting over to Black Powder and trying to figure out witch band will be best for my rifle, Goex, Swiss or any other out there. Been using a 20-1 mixture

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[darrell.fisher26]

It's been over 20 years, so I may be off. but I used to load for a C. Sharps in 45-70 using the Lyman postell with 62 1/2 gr Goex cartridge grade black under a hard felt wad. I pan lubed bullet using beeswax, muphy's oil soap and neat's foot oil.. used to shoot steel with it out to 500 yds.... you don't have to go fast to stay accurate....Have you had any issues using Goex? Heard its very corrosive from a few friends but when I ask what they used it in I find they never used it. Word of mouth is where they got it.

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[Lead pot]

Have you had any issues using Goex? Heard its very corrosive from a few friends but when I ask what they used it in I find they never used it. Word of mouth is where they got it.

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Darrell.

When shooting a rifle or any firearm it should be cleaned after use, smokeless or using black powder.

I been shooting black powder since the early 50's when I got my first rolling block rifle and front stuffers using sifted out blasting powder we used for splitting logs and blowing stumps on the farm. I have yet to see any rifles with corroded bores or actions. Most of the damage in the old rifles happened using the corrosive priming compounds and not from the black powder.
Till the last two seasons I used from 80 to 125 pounds of powder mostly through my .50-2.5 that I used to keep track of how many rounds I fired through that rifle by the numbered bricks of primers I only used for that rifle and lost count during a primer shortage in early 2000 with 17 bricks and since then I would say way past 20,000 rounds shot through that .50 and the barrel and action innerts are just as clean as it was new the outside of the rifle looks like it was drug behind a wagon from use but the inners are good. All it takes is a few wet patches followed by dry and oil when your done shooting. It will clean up faster then shooting a high powered rifle shooting jacketed bullets and smokeless powder and the barrel will outlast a high powered rifle.

Working up a load for your .45-70 is something you have to do because my loads or anyone else's might shoot differently in yours or others. I see this in my different .45-70's.
The Lyman postell 457-132 is a good bullet. I don't much like the mass produced moulds from Lyman, but it I was to just have one mould for the .45-70 it would be the 457-132.
Powder choice is yours. Some are better then others but they can be made to work with a little load work up's and proper fouling control.
Start a what I call ladder loads with zero compression to .350", not much need to go past that, with one or two grains increase for 3 rounds each. Usually after 21 or 24 rounds shot you will see what will be a load that can be improved on and you will get valuable time behind the butplate shooting that rifle............Kurt

[Lumpy grits]

Thank you for the reply! Been shifting over to Black Powder and trying to figure out witch band will be best for my rifle, Goex, Swiss or any other out there. Been using a 20-1 mixture

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I use Goex Old 'E' 2F, for both my .45-70 & .45-90.
LG

[Lumpy grits]

Have you had any issues using Goex? Heard its very corrosive from a few friends but when I ask what they used it in I find they never used it. Word of mouth is where they got it.

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BP is hydroscopic-It absorbs water from the air.
Windex multi-task with Vinegar, is a great BP cleaner. Just clean at the end of each shooting day.
LG

[country gent]

I have used Goex, Olde Ensforde, and Swiss in 1F,1 1/2F, 2F, and a very little 3F. Goex is okay requires more compression than the other 2 do usually around .190-.250 in my rifles. When compression spot is found Extreme Spread and Standard deviation are both low and fouling is much lighter and easier to control. It does okay accuracy wise and is the more available powder around. Olde Ensforde is real good compression is usually around .070-.090 in my rifles and fouling is softer and easier to control. Standard deviations and extreme spread is normally low and my better loads are in the 2-4 SD range with it. Swiss is the most expensive by quite a bit but it is very good. Compression is normally around .050-.090 in my rifles. Accuracy is very good, fouling with the right compression and lube is soft and light.
As to granulation size experiment and see what your rifle likes and performs best with.
Lubes use one rated for BP SPG or some of the others. If you want to make it, emmerts improved is good.
Recipe for Emmerts is
50 % beeswax
40% unsalted Crisco shortening
5% canola or olive oil
5% anahydrous lanolin
Use a double boiler to heat and blend ingrediants together melting together and allowing to cool. I sometimes add a small amount of murphys oil soap, 5-4 drops to help mix and bind everything. I melt it and pour in a lube sizer or pan lube with it. Removing bullets with a simple cake cutter and shooting as cast.
You want a load that leaves no airspace in the case powder and wad stack should be compressed to where the bullet can be hand seated down on the wads and be right at overall length. Then a light sizing to set neck tension. I load fire formed cases and seat the bullets by hand then use a bushing die to size around bullet setting tension, A standard sizing die ( if it will clear the bullet) set .400-.450 higher than full length setting is pretty close to right for most brass.
Look for a load that gives low SDs and ESs around 1150 fps-1200fps range. This range of velocity does very well and topples the heavy rams at 500 yds with good hits.
I use several GG bullets in my 45 cal rifles The 457125 510 grn lyman govt., the lyman postell at 528 grns ( I converted mine to nose pour). and a Old West 550 grn shilouette bullet made by Bernie Rowels. The postell is a very good bullet and performs well in most rifles. My pedersoli with 34" half round barrel 1-18 twist shoots it extremely well.

[Lumpy grits]

I'm compressing 2F 'E' about .370-.380 in both of my rifles.
Target says to do so.
I pan lube with DGL.
LG

[Lead pot]

2F OE has more then one compression level. I found three that shoots well in my new .40-65 that has a very tight chamber. one very light load of 53 gr that has less then .100" a 57 gr with around .130" and a .062" with around .245" all three of those loads with two PP bullets 390 gr Brooks and a 416 gr PP from BA have shot sub MOA @ 200 yards one with the 53 gr of 2F OE that put 6 rounds in 1-3/4 Vertical X 5/8 horizontal. All three loads will keep 6 rounds under a 2 1/2" round group. None of the ladder loads have shot above 3.3/4" @ 200.
The 53 gr load will be my chicken load for this rifle. :D

[6GUNSONLY]

Thanks for those loading ideas, lead pot. I have a Pedersoli .40-65 that I'm just starting to work with. Want to get some loads assembled in time to hunt with it some this year. I have a 400 gr Postell style bullet mold and also a 300 grain mold with a flatter nose. Having a little trouble figuring out the whole charge weight/compression formula.

[rfd]

6guns, the easy way - for a greaser cartridge, make up a dummy round that either engraves or barely engraves that postell (the better bullet than the 300 grain). that'll be yer starting cartridge OAL. use calipers and measure how deep the bullet is seated in the brass (brass length versus bullet length), drop fill bp to what the bullet depth would be, add a wad or two, compress to the wad(s) thickness, seat the bullet (the seating variation depends on whether the case will be sized and crimped, or fire formed). that's for starters - there are *SO* many cartridge load parameters and variations. the trick is finding what yer gun likes best.

[Lead pot]

here is another way to get a overall length. just take a bullet and push it in the chamber till it makes contact with the throat. Insert a cleaning rod or wood dowel down the barrel from the muzzle till it makes contact with the bullet and put a mark on the dowel. Now push the bullet out with the dowel and close the breach. Push the dowel till it makes contact with the block and put a second mark on the dowel. These two marks will be the over all length of your round making a snug contact into the throat. Now do what rfd said to find your no compression load and work up from where that is.

[6GUNSONLY]

Both make sense. Similar to using a Stoney Point tool in a hi power rifle. The bullet/dowel method just does it from the other end. Thanks!

[Col4570]

Just use a Card Wad over the Powder then a lubricated Postel 535 Grain Bullet.I use 65 grains of Vesuvit 3F Black Powder with good results.With my Pedersoli Silhouette Rifle Chamber and the above load compressed 1/4" the bullet sits with the last canelure at the neck of the case.I do not Crimp my rounds,this preserves the cases for a long time.It is not necessary to crimp a single Shot Rifle rounds unless you keep them in a Belt or shoot them in a magazine Rifle.

[SgtDog0311]

I may have missed it... did anyone answer the question about Wads at the Quigley? With BP we certainly we use them and there is no prohibition. For Smokeless they mention no over-powder wad. That's a bad idea no matter where you shoot your smokeless. My understanding is you can still use a wad at the base of your bullet if it's snug enough to ease your mind over transporting those cartridges. A dowel will tell that story. I've shot a few thousand that way but I usually have to know the wad is tight and even then I transport my ammo with the bullets down/rim up. I wouldn't advise it for the novice.

I think part of that question was - did anyone shoot BP without wads. I'd be interested in that answer. I've heard of some but could count those on two fingers. Could be a lot more and it just does not get much mention I suppose.

[Rayolamp]

I've loaded plinking loads without wads in my 45-70. All shots were less than a 100 yards. Did not seem to affected the accuracy any. But the range was minimal. Never tried them at 500+ yards to see what they'd do.

Shoot my win 92 in 44wcf without wads and it does well under 200 yards. I have used wads (poly) when I first started loading for the 44wcf but got lazy and eliminated the wads for quicker reloads. The rifle did not seem to mind any!

[Lead pot]

John yes you can shoot a bullet with out a wad. A GG you would get by better to a point then a PP. A PP patched to bore you have to balance the allot hardness so it upsets quick to fill the grooves to hold the gas back so it don't cut. I primarily looked into this for a hunting bullet for my .44-77 to get a heavier powder load in the case for a flatter trajectory.
The far left bullet had no wad, set right on the powder and the rest I used cork and felt to see how much the change was using cushioning wads. You can see the change on how far the land cuts went up on the shank and how deep. But I did not see gas cuts.
The bullets below are PP patched two thousands under bore.
204751204752[attach=config]204751[/attach

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Ray.
Kurt, that's interesting. More bump up the full length without the wad then? The right bullet doesn't look like there are any land imprints - is that just the way it's rotated?

I know you have recovered a lot of bullets. Any observations in your 'recovery' travels which would lead to conclusions about the "base" of the bullet. We go to a lot of trouble in casting to make good looking bases. I reckon in my mind I connected wads to the preservation of those bases.

[SgtDog0311]

I guess if that far left "base" image (is it marked #2) corresponds with the order in the photo below then that would answer the question. I was looking at numbers and mapping those but occurs to me your numbers are not the match here. Though the edge around the circumference on the one marked #1 looks like it's been abused some too.

[Lead pot]

John the numbers on the base are just a reference so when the snow melts I know what the alloy/load and wads were used.
The far left is #7 and the wads are from left to right #7 is no wad used,#3 milk carton wad, #1 cork and #41 felt. The flat bullets are in the same order and #41 does have light land cuts but the bullet must have rolled a little and the light sort of wiped them out, but they are very shallow and only part way up on the shank. This mould is a reproduction of a old mould that has a slight rounded healed base.

[SgtDog0311]

So Kurt... I'd be right in concluding from the pictures of the bases that the one without a wad had it's base abused more than the other three, correct? Sorry - just want to be certain you'd agree with that conclusion.

[Lead pot]

Yes John

[SgtDog0311]

thnx Kurt!

[Chill Wills]

Yes John

Boy! That is what I call brevity. :grin:


By the way Kurt, Great pictures (as always) to make a point.

[Lead pot]

:grin: Michael I always been a conservative sort of feller and that goes with economy of language also :grin: