.458 muzzleloader

[glockky]

I was wanting to know what would be the easiest or cheapest way to get into a .458 bore muzzleloader?

I have many 45-70 molds and it would be nice to be able to shoot them patched or lubed.

[Beerd]

I like the way you think.
"I have this mould, what gun should I buy for it?" :)
..

[Pavia]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67657-My-Whitworth

[RWE]

I've been in this situation before. Have a mold or a metric **** tonne of bullets and need a gun to fit.

Get a .458 barrel, breech it and build an underhammer.

202813

Due to molds on hand, it has become a switch barrel in .452 fast twist, 45 RB, 54 RB, and a 54 Maxi ball and 32 maxi ball on the way.

[bedbugbilly]

You could go two different ways . . .

1. Have a custom barrel made to "drop in" and existing rifle . . .

or

2. Do as RWE suggests - find a barrel, breech it and build an under hammer. Pecatonica River has the under hammer actions as well as the stocks for a build. An under hammer would allow you to change out barrels easily for other calibers. I'm partial to under hammers - easily shot either left or right handed, simple, quick ignition and just plain fun.

All depends on what your leaning is nd how much you want to spend on it. I doubt very much if you are going to find a rifle with the barrel you are wanting already on it unless you run across one that a like minded person put together. Good luck to you . . . . I agree with you that it would be nice to have a rifle to shoot what you like boolit wise!

[RWE]

Regarding the underhammer, if you got molds, you got a lead pot. And tempering the spring would be easy at that point.

Mine has a 3/4" diameter hole in the receiver on the stock, and the barrels have a 3/4 diameter stub for the breech. A single set pin to fix the barrel to the receiver.

The 452 is scoped, but the rest have open sights, so switching is easy peasy.


Now all those moulds that I have horded for eons have a use.

I cast wheel weights in a SAA for my colt pistol, and use a "watered down" WW/pure lead mixture in the same mold for the muzzleloader.

Cavemen could do it....

And those fast twists you can go carbine length - 24" +/- if you are looking for a handi thumper or full monte if you want a target/long range piece.

[Good Cheer]

Wanting a hunting piece rather than a paper puncher, the way I went was to take a solid no nonsense rifle that I wanted to use and had the barrel lined with the rifling and twist of my choice.

202817

202816

Works with .45 rifle boolits lubed lead or patched and .45 pistol boolits patched.

[725]

I picked up a Gonic (.458), but the barrel was trashed. Too bad, too. The serial number indicated it was the inventor's son's gun. Had to rebarrel it. The new barrel is just over ..453 -- go figure. It's been a nightmare to get this one right. Many technical problems to overcome. That said, I'd rebarrel one of these again and just put up with the challenges involved. The ever present option for you would be to send the gun to Bob Hoyt (barrel magician) and have him line it or bore it to your spec's. Since you know your boolit weight, he could give you a twist rate optimized for it.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, any .50cal inline rifle can use saboted .45 (.458") boolits - and .50cal frontstuffers are a dime a dozen, usually available in excellent/used condition for around $200.


.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Get the bullet in its firing position with everything just right, and it won't care which direction the powder went in. The difficulty is that for a .458 groove barrel, it is difficult to force down a .458 diameter bullet in perfect alignment. Most bullets for muzzle loaders are land diameter, either in lead if they are grooved and lubed, or over a patch, and they rely on expansion. As a sweeping generalisation, target rifles with a fast twist and heavy bullets can do it by the inertia of the bullet, but lighter bullets need a hollow base.

One way to force groove diameter bullets into the muzzle would be to make a false muzzle. This can be entirely smoothbored and bullet diameter, but I will describe how to make one with the start of the rifling.

If your barrel is heavy enough at the muzzle, drill a couple of holes lengthwise into it. (If it is thinner you would have to gs arrange some other locating device, such as a key or a sleeve notched to fit the front sight block.) Then cut off the last couple of inches, and fit pins in those holes, so that it can be plugged into the muzzle holes with the bore in perfect alignment. In theory that should leave the muzzle and false muzzle separated by the thickness of the saw cut. You would probably want to solder on a washer to take up the space. Orn a closely with the sleeve alignment you could adjust that to put the rifling in alignment, sliding on a cerrosafe bore case.

However you do it, you then "chamber" the front of that false muzzle so that you can drop in a closely fitting bullet, and then force it down into the rifling. The class act used to be to attach the false muzzle with a bayonet fitting or hooks, and it would incorporate its own levers, like a tiny reloading press. But you are about as well off driving the bullet down with a mushroom-shaped plunger and the heel of your hand, or even a mallet.

Many false muzzles had a short vertical arm sticking up. It saved a little fumbling to get it the right way up. But its real function was to obscure the sights and stop you sending the false muzzle downrange by shooting with it in place. People do talk so.

I got very useful results with my Bohemian double rifle and a .50-70 breech loader bullet, using a false muzzle located solely by a land diameter pin in the other barrel. The bullet-holding hole could swing through an arc, but its short bore was, at worst, parallel to the one the bullet had to go down, and it aligned itself quite satisfactorily

[glockky]

I didn't know if finding a used hawked and having it the barrel bored or refined would be a better option.

I've personally never held or shot a underhammer.

[Nobade]

Bob Hoyt can do rebores in .458/.466 so you can shoot normal 45-70 bullets.

[Tatume]

The difficulty is that for a .458 groove barrel, it is difficult to force down a .458 diameter bullet in perfect alignment.

Exactly. I just finished a flintlock rifle with a Green Mountain 45-70 barrel. It loads and shoots well with 0.452" bullets (Lyman 451-114).

[glockky]

Are you patching the .452 bullets

[Good Cheer]

With the .458 bore diameter you get to shoot lubed lead or the very same molds paper patched and then sized .457.
202844
202845

.45 Colt SWC molds paper patched also work. Intending to try the RCBS 250 round nose for grins.
202846

It'll also shoot the same round ball as the revolver on your hip.

[glockky]

Who lined your barrel Good Cheer

[Tatume]

Are you patching the .452 bullets

No, 0.452" bullets are correct for a 458 ML barrel.

[Good Cheer]

Who lined your barrel Good Cheer

Mister Hoyt.

[Good Cheer]

No, 0.452" bullets are correct for a 458 ML barrel.

That's why mine was made .458 bore diameter instead of .458 groove, so it would use the multitude of off the shelf .45 rifle molds. Being able to use paper patching with revolver molds and the same round ball as percussion .44 revolvers is lagniappe.

The latest is .520 bore specialized to use off the shelf fifty rifle molds paper patched and sized .519.
202848

[AntiqueSledMan]

I'm shooting my RCBS 45-300-FN out of my Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a sabot from MMP.
http://mmpsabots.com/store/orange-hph-sabot/

AntiqueSledMan

[John Taylor]

Many years ago I was playing with the same idea. Took the last 2" of barrel and made a bullet sizer. Had to shrink it down a bit by turning it down on the OD and pressing it into a sleeve. The bullets that were sized and lubed had the rifling engraved so all you had to do was line up the lands and grooves and push the bullet down the barrel. Using soft lead the bullets did not need to upset very much to seal the bore. Loading was easy and they shot very good.

[725]

Good Cheer,

just a question about the picture above: What are the strings? I have paper patched but really am not that well versed.

[Good Cheer]

The precut lengths of kite string are a temporary pull down to make the tails real tight on the base. After drying the string comes back off for reuse next time. The tails get snipped close up with a set of nail clippers. It's just an alternative to a folded bottom on the patch.

[taco650]

I'm shooting my RCBS 45-300-FN out of my Lyman Great Plains Hunter with a sabot from MMP.
http://mmpsabots.com/store/orange-hph-sabot/

AntiqueSledMan

Thanks for posting this link. I'd like to have another option to PRB's and use the existing .44 & .45 cal bullets I already cast.

[AntiqueSledMan]

I have also sized some to .451 to try in a .54 cal. Lyman Great Plains Hunter with Harvester Sabots for .54 cal.
I can't see why this wouldn't work in a .50 cal. with a Harvester Sabot for .50 cal.

AntiqueSledMan

[Plastikosmd]

Mine is full custom. I don't use standard slugs, rather 2 part swaged, Paper patched, pic is here on my site
http://plastikosmd.com/Default.aspx?ContentPageID=184

[Boz330]

I picked up a Gonic (.458), but the barrel was trashed. Too bad, too. The serial number indicated it was the inventor's son's gun. Had to rebarrel it. The new barrel is just over ..453 -- go figure. It's been a nightmare to get this one right. Many technical problems to overcome. That said, I'd rebarrel one of these again and just put up with the challenges involved. The ever present option for you would be to send the gun to Bob Hoyt (barrel magician) and have him line it or bore it to your spec's. Since you know your boolit weight, he could give you a twist rate optimized for it.

I use to guide for an outfitter that pushed the Gonics for his ML hunts for elk. The inventor's son came out for an elk hunt and refused to check his zero the night before the hunt saying he knew where his rifle shot. Even though it was fresh off of the line. The next morning he dropped the hammer on several caps with no boom. The elk got tired of all the noise and left. After getting back to camp we found that the nipple had somehow not been drilled all the way through. We figured that one of the employees had set him up. The guy was a real *******. He never got another shot at an elk.
He ran the business into the ground after his dad died. A real shame since I never shot one of those rifles that didn't shoot really tight groups. I zeroed one for a client that grouped into 4" at 200yd.

Bob

[flyrod]

If you're not opposed to encores, the Bergara 45 barrels are .458"

[glockky]

If you're not opposed to encores, the Bergara 45 barrels are .458"


That's some good info. Too bad they quit making them and the stainless ones are hard to find now.

[flyrod]

The Haus of arms has Bergara 45 barrels the last time I looked, if you're interested.

[glockky]

Can anyone else confirm they are .458"? I can't find that info anywhere else.

[Good Cheer]

I'd like to put together a longer barrelled .458 bore to operate like my New Englander and might just use another New Englander to do it or maybe another Renegade. But a full length stock as from Pecatonica is really really tempting. A barrel to use the molds made for .476 / .480 caliber revolvers would be nice but I'm already set up with molds and .457 push through sizer. Reckon I'll have to think a while on how much faster of a twist and land geometries. And how very slender can the entire package be made.

[glockky]

Been doing a lot of reading on taking a single shot 45-70 and having the barrel drilled for a breech plug. This seems to be one of the more affordable options to get a good 45 cal muzzleloader.

Plus side is your able to make a smokeless muzzleloader out of it too.