Paperpatch sticking to bullet.

[Mgvande]

I did some ammo testing today with hard and soft cast pp bullets in my martini. I found paper still stuck to the bullet in the sand at 100m. Now I was experimenting with normal computer paper today. I never saw this with tracing paper. I just wanted to up the diameter so I could friction fit in the fire sized case. Now I am going with 3 wraps of tracing paper to see how that works tonight.
Has anyone ran into a situation where the paper stays on that long? If so what was the problem and how was it rectified.

Thanks in advance.

[martinibelgian]

Try dry patching - and above all, a bigger bullet. Best a .458 - .460 bullet patched up to .470. The thinner the paper, the better the results usually. Ordinary paper is just too thick. I also had an issue with sticking patches when wet patching, so now I dry patch. Easier actually, when you get the hang of it. And just a friction fit usually isn't enough for a Martini, unless you can seat the bullet out into the rifling (no mean feat with that long throat on a military martini). A bit of neck tension usually works much better accuracy-wise.

[rfd]

i load exclusively with black powder, and i find that the tried and true double wrap of 9# onion paper over a 1:20 or 1:16 slick that's cast/sized (mine are .443 for a .45-70) so that the resulting DRY patched PPB is a hair under bore diameter works best. every shot taken results in a shower of confetti.

[Mgvande]

Thanks for the feedback

[Bent Ramrod]

If you want thicker paper, check the "Artsy-Craftsy" sections of the department stores, or the "premium" shelves of the paper stores, for tablets of "sketching" or "drawing" paper or reams of "vellum." Bring your micrometer with you, and shun all but the "crackly" thick stuff. The kind they'd use on a radio drama to suggest a fire in progress.

The soft stuff like computer paper turns to papier mache, especially when patched wet, and sticks to everything. I've even occasionally found the harder papers stuck to the ends of wet-patched boolits dug from the berm at 400 yds. I've had them peel off the boolits going through targets at 200 M, lying on the ground when I went out to check groups. The groups were not good. I no longer wet-patch.

If the BHN of your lead alloy is 8-11 or so, the patched boolit shouldn't need to be a "press fit" in your bore. They shouldn't rattle down the barrel, but I've had combinations that can be pushed through with less effort than a cleaning patch, the rifling just marking the outer wrap of the paper, that shoot better than combos with the same boolit with thicker paper and a tighter fit. Size the width of your patches so they go up to the ogive but only cover the edge of bullet bases 1/32" or so when wrapped.

Extra wraps of paper will only complicate things. You want the patch off the boolit as soon as it emerges from the muzzle. While I was getting started, I wrapped them "backwards," i.e., with the leading edge flopping loose at the front rather than tucked away at the rear, and held by the case mouth. Kind of a nuisance to chamber, but certain to catch the air outside and strip off immediately. When loading, I'd moisten the edge, press it down, and rotate the cartridge while seating. Now that I'm more sure of things, I wrap them the other way.

[country gent]

In 45 cal I use a 443 dia slick sided bullet and 2 wraps of rolled drafting paper or onion paper at .0018 thickness for a bullet dia of .450. Use enough Black powder to fill the case to the base of the bullet with the wad stack and .090 grease cookie. The bullet sits .150-.180 in the case is all. This shoots very well and the paper patch confetti is recovered with in 5 feet of the muzzle.
Dry wrap or just lightly dampen the patch for a short time on sponge setting in a pan of water for a couple minute. The old egg white mixture 1 egg white to a quart of water or some others ( I used to use lee water soluable sizing lube mixed 4 parts water to 1 part lube). Wash your bullets down with acetone or alchlol to remove any oils or other things. A good tight wrap will hold fine and a good fold over leaving a small amount of base showing in the center ( .090-.100 dia ) Leaving a tail may cause patches to stick as this is pushed into the base on firing.Computer and typing papers may have a clay or other coatings for their intended use that makes them stick also. Use a larger dia bullet if bigger is wanted and stick with the thinner papers drafting paper tracing paper onion paper and such. The heavier papers don't roll or form as well the coatings are an issue and they don't cut as well. The recovered patches should be outer layer is confetti and the under layer base intact showing rifiling impressions.

[Mgvande]

I have noticed that the computer paper does get 'mushy' when wet. That's probably why it sticks. The tracing paper I have used seems to leave the bullet immediately. I will try some quality onion paper as suggested. Thanks

[country gent]

Look for paper in the 7-9lb range. I have forund several tablets of tracing paper at Wallmarts ( Paco brand I think) that worked good. Also business max had a 25% and 100% cotton tracing paper that was very good. These were in a "Pad to the top edge needs to be discarded due to the glue bond there. Seth Cole sketch paper is very good to work with 55w is 8lband comes in a 12"X 50 yd roll. This is .0018 thick.

[rfd]

my startup PPB load advice whence loading with real black gunpowder - dry wrap only, use a double rhomboid wrap of papermill 9# onion paper, make sure the completed PPB is at or just under bore diameter when completed (the PPB will easily fit into the chamber throat and bore - there will be no such thing as a PPB cartridge OAL). whether or not to use a lube cookie is up to you, i don't and that ensures a typical .45-70 case will hold in excess of 80 grains of swiss 1-1/2 and turns it into a "virtual .45-90". as always, ymmv.

[Mgvande]

Does one grease the outside of the patch? I have been, just the part that is recessed in the case neck

[Mgvande]

So I think my bullet maybe too big. I have a mark 3 martini and my slick is .460". What are other people using in there mark 3's?

[country gent]

I very lightly wipe the sides of the patch with JoJoba oil before hand seating it. I do 4-5 and then remove the excess with a cleaning patch. a drop on finger and thumb does about 5-6 bullets. Spin bullet in the same direction as the wrap is. I don't use grease or thick lubes for this. I did use the Lee water soluable sizing lube for awhile This was mixed 1 part lube to 4 parts water. It left a lightly lubed patch when dried. I prefer the JoJOba oil now over it. A very good book on the art of Paper Patching is Randolph S. Wrights Book Loading and shooting the paper patched bullet A Begineers guide. Very well written and a lot of good information presented in an informative easy to understand forum.

[rfd]

+1 to country gents recommendation of randy wright's book - it's the best around for PPB newbies.

personally, i have no need for lubing or wetting patches. dry works best for all the right reasons - blow off at the muzzle. hunting *may* be a reason for wiping the outside of the already created PPB cartridge patch paper with a cake of beeswax for some modicum of "waterproofing".

how the cartridge is assembled is another matter, as there are more than a few good methods, and that appears to depend on the rifle's chamber. my current roller was meant for greasers, so the chamber/throat is on the larger size. this means that my completed PPB's fall into the fire formed case mouth - and will fall out as well. so, the completed cartridge gets very Very slightly neck sized, just enuf to trap the PPB, and although it won't fall out of the case, it can swivel and be pulled out with a slight bit of effort.

lotsa variables whence going the PPB Way. ain't dis stuff fun, or what? :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mHOAgiMizo

[Don McDowell]

I would suspect if your bullet is already 460 before patching and using that heavy printer paper is the major cause of paper sticking to your bullet.
Wet patching with an 8 lb paper and wiping down the exposed portion of the patch after loading has proven to be a good thing in my rifles.

[Mgvande]

I sized my slick down to 457 after work and hit the range. I noticed some improvement. I did a 5 shot group and had 2 touching and another 2 touching 4" from the first 2 and one in between. I think my 10lb trigger could be an issue. It's trying to do something at least now. That was with tracing paper. Going to town for a horse show this weekend gonna find some onion skin paper as was suggested.

[country gent]

I use a mecham tool bushing die for the 45-70-45-90 and 40-65. I have bushing a few thousandths either side of what I want for both PP and geasers. I also load waiting to size until bushing is seated and then just enough to set bullet tension, but most dies don't undersize enough for bore riders. A bushing type die can be a big pluss here as it saves expanding back up. All of my chambers are grease groove style with no real throat the lead is right off the case mouth. This works well for me other than the large necks on fired cases. You may want to consider annealing a little more often to remove the hardening from the extra sizing of the cases. I also use a patch board to wrap the patch for consistency. Its just easier for me.

[Don McDowell]

I sized my slick down to 457 after work and hit the range. I noticed some improvement. I did a 5 shot group and had 2 touching and another 2 touching 4" from the first 2 and one in between. I think my 10lb trigger could be an issue. It's trying to do something at least now. That was with tracing paper. Going to town for a horse show this weekend gonna find some onion skin paper as was suggested.

Seth Cole 55w is a very good paper. If you have a Staples office supply store nearby, they have a rolled 8lb tracing paper in their drafting section that is quite similar to the Seth Cole.
And yes a 10 lb trigger pull will not do anything to help with small groups.

[martinibelgian]

So I think my bullet maybe too big. I have a mark 3 martini and my slick is .460". What are other people using in there mark 3's?

No it isn't - Military Martini's do shoot well with the bigger bullets patched up to groove diameter - and is a totally different best than the PP bullet loaded for the match rifle due to that very long, oversize and shallow throat. Most of the advice given here is for 'normal' chambers and match rifle - not for a period military Martini. And no, you don't have to lube the paper, just use a thick grease cookie.

[martinibelgian]

So I think my bullet maybe too big. I have a mark 3 martini and my slick is .460". What are other people using in there mark 3's?

No it isn't - Military Martini's do shoot well with the bigger bullets patched up to groove diameter - and is a totally different best than the PP bullet loaded for the match rifle due to that very long, oversize and shallow throat. Most of the advice given here is for 'normal' chambers and match rifle - not for a period military Martini. And no, you don't have to lube the paper, just use a thick grease cookie.

[Mgvande]

My grease cookie is about 1/8" thick. I have seen people are using a heck of allot more like 1/4" to 3/8". Perhaps I should double what I'm doing.

[martinibelgian]

the cookie needs to fill the neck completely, leaving just enough room to seat the bullet: definitely go bigger - and what are you doing re. fouling management?

[Mgvande]

I run a patch every 5 shots. As I am developing a load that will shoot better than 10" at 100m. I figure I should do all 5 at once. I do blow tube between shots. The idea is for a hunting load where I could be taking a follow up shot. I was thinking I should save the filler a bit and add more grease cookie.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing that can make the base of the patch stick to the bullet is crimp.
Anything other than powder used for a filler won't do much to bring about good accuracy.

[martinibelgian]

Don't use any filler, and blowtube only - or wipe every shot. And she'll easily shoot better than 4" at 100 if you do your thing

[Mgvande]

I use just enough filler to bring the level of material just to the base of the neck. When I drop tube 85gr I need 15gr of cow/Fffg mix to accomplish this. So should I just add more powder to just get to the neck base? Unfortunately I don't have any fg and have been using ffg and I won't be getting any fg for a while. Thanks

[Don McDowell]

I would say yes to add more powder even if it is 2f. Don't drop tube it, so it doesn't take quite as much.

[martinibelgian]

I know this sounds like heresy, but I'd say to omit the filler, don't increase the powder quantity and leave air in that (huge) case. If you don't feel comfortable with that, use foam backing rod - but keep away from granular filler: the tend to increase pressures in abrupt BN cases like 577-450, and can even rip necks off in extreme cases.
FWIW,
I have shot 1000+ rounds with a bit of airspace between lube cookie and powder level, works just fine. And don't droptube - you drop tube in order to compact the powder, so you can get more in the case - but the 577-450 case is already way bigger than needed, so certainly no need to make things worse and compact the powder so you can fit more...

[Mgvande]

Thanks for the information. Greatly appreciated, now I have some more playing around to do.

[rfd]

punched out 1/8" thick dry felt wads make for good fillers.

[Lead pot]

Mgvande
You never described the bullet your using other then a slick. Some will call a GG a slick when they wrap it with paper.
If your using a grooved bullet and patch it chances are that when the soft lead you said your using will compress the bullet grooves and hold the paper.
If your using one of the hollow based bullets from a Lee mould and twist the tail in the hollow or cup based bullet it will hold the patch that is inside of the case mouth. Any of this plus if your blow tubing and getting to much moisture the patch will stick in the grooves if your patching a grooved bullet of even a proper PP bullet (with out lube grooves) undersized using soft alloys the wrinkles when the base gets pushed forward. Running a bullet through a sizing die that is way over sized or using a lube on the patch can stick the patch. Lube on a naked bullet left on when running it through a die. Gluing a patch with egg white I see some using to keep the patch fron unraveling is a sure thing for paper sticking on the bullet.

[Mgvande]

I'm using a flat sided bullet for pp. flat based. I think it is 470gr. I loaded some more with very little water just to get them on but I haven't been able to hit the range yet. Perhaps tonight.

[martinibelgian]

punched out 1/8" thick dry felt wads make for good fillers.

Yes they do - but NOT in bottleneck cases...

[Lead pot]

punched out 1/8" thick dry felt wads make for good fillers.

Using organic fillers like corn meal, cream of wheat, grits in bottle necked cases is not the best thing to use below the case necks they turn into a solid mass like these corn meal bullets I make for forming .44-90 bottle necked cases from straight wall basic brass. they will spike the chamber pressure if you use it below the shoulder.
202771

[Mgvande]

So I think I have to up my charge slightly and not drop tube so I get just to where the neck starts. This will get rid of the pressure problems regarding fillers. I will try this out as I'm still wary of leaving an air space. I actually have a different problem with a 43 Beaumont. I am using heavy bullets and not much of a neck.

[martinibelgian]

You can always use foam backing rod cut to the correcdt length - too much powder does hurt (1 got to somewhere between 100-110grs of powder before getting rid of all the airspace, not droptubed, uncompressed) and isn't good for accuracy - been there, done that...

[Mgvande]

I can give that foam rod a go. I just shot another 5 shot group last night with double the cookie I usually do and I am now getting grease at the muzzle. I did find a circle of patch at 100 meters from the back of the bullet. That's no good so I will follow advice and ensure the whole back of the bullet is not covered in paper. I am getting 8" 'groups' which is an improvement. I noticed that the back of my bullet gets a very slight depression after sizing as the alloy is soft. I'm thinking I can toss a veg wad under while I am sizing to mitigate this. The new paper I am using seems to be not sticking to the sides judging the slugs I dug up. I will try further testing after I'm back from Bighorn hunting. This has been a struggle to get this gun shooting but my bore is nice and shiny after blasting off all these pp rounds. An elk is going to get it this fall with this gun.

[rfd]

fwiw and if it's of any help, my ppb 200 yard .45-70 cartridge load. starline brass, 60.3 grains of swiss 1-1/2f w/.030 compression, two .025 milk carton wads, two .125" hard dry duro-felt wads, two .025 milk carton wads, .443 406 grain 1:20 slick (accurate molds), two wraps of papermill 9# onion paper (dry, open back w/no tail), fed 210 LRP. all wads cut on a press mounted cornell wad die. bore wipers used between shots for fouling control. i can usually get 2moa out of this load if shooting conditions (and me) are right ... sometimes better, if my eyes and trigger finger are on a really good roll as well.

http://i.imgur.com/osLJpVK.jpg

[Mgvande]

How do you find seating the pp with no back? Any hang ups on the case mouth?

[rfd]

How do you find seating the pp with no back? Any hang ups on the case mouth?

these are flat based slicks. 'open back' means no twisted tail and the paper is wrapped around the base edge for about 3/16", like these ....

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB_files/image3711.jpg

[country gent]

I wrap the same way RFD my "center" is a little smaller than yours but there is a small opening there. I use a patching board and get very consistant results at the base. the patch is set to the rail and the stop is on the bullets nose. any variance is in the height of the patch on the bullet. This has worked very well for me. A flat base is much better than the tail as the push is square and even

[Idz]

I use cotton balls to take up the space in the case. The trick I found is that cotton balls are actually cotton rolls and if you unroll them before stuffing them in the case they blast out in a cloud of lint. If left rolled up they can come out as a burning blob.

[Mgvande]

I will try this. It was my next step but it's good to know it's working for people. This paperpatching if really affecting my home life. Back to the garage.

[Mgvande]

I used the foam backer and my groups improved significantly. I shot 4 with pp with neck tension and 5 without neck tension just press fit. And both groups sized at 4".

[Gellot Wilde]

205971


I have had it happen and boy is it detrimental to your score.:(

There were patched wet and I believe I had just too much patch folded into the base.

These were from the muzzle loader by the way, not the BPCR & the distance was 100M.

I got around it by cutting three slits in the ones I had left...apparently it was common practice back in the day with target shooters?

[Mgvande]

Thanks for the help regarding this. I ended up with foam backer rod as a filler and I dry patched. I left a little bit of the base centre exposed for good measure. Friction fit into an unsized case neck. It was good enough to get a deer at any rate.

[country gent]

another difference in the different papers is the "fillers and coatings" in them. Heavier papers have more clay and coating for finish. These can soften paper when wetted to wrap. Another with the thicker papers is they don't cut as well or as clean, when wrapped tight and laid down smoothly if they don't cut they may not unwind as easily or as quickly.
Watch in front of the muzzle for the confetti, it should be the outer wrap in confetti or strips and the under layer base fold showing rifling engraving marks. Using white paer a dark colored blanket spread in front of the muzzle will show them easier also.

[John 242]

Here's a video by Rob at Britishmuzzleloaders in which he paper patches smooth bullets for a Martini-Henry.

https://youtu.be/VtYQslXdTrs

He does things a little different from what some are some are suggesting here, but if nothing else maybe this adds a little to the discussion.
He uses vellum paper, cotton ball as a filler, a milk carton wad, a grease cookie of about a 1/4 inch, followed by two more milk carton wads to separate the grease cookie from the bullet the bullet (preventing the paper patch from sticking to the bullet?) and then seats the bullet.
He tries a couple of different bullet sizes, including a .451 tapered service bullet and parallel .457 modified service bullet. He ends up shooting about a 4" group with the .457, with one flyer. Just over 3 inches with the flyer removed.
Fouling management is with a blow tube.

I don't know if his techniques or results are good, bad or somewhere in-between. I don't shoot BPCR or paper patch bullets, but I found the video interesting. I wanted to find out a little more about paper patching, which brought me to this thread. Very interesting stuff.

[charlie b]

For anyone who paper patches it is good to read the stickies in here about paper and how it is made. Different papers have much different properties.

[sharpsguy]

If your paper patch is sticking to your bullet, you are doing something wrong.

[Mgvande]

If your paper patch is sticking to your bullet, you are doing something wrong.

I agree with this assessment.

[rfd]

this is what you want to see after firing off a ppb ...

https://i.imgur.com/yVaa5P1.jpg