22 Lovell variations

[brian1]

I inherited a Winchester 1885 that is stamped
22 R Lovell

I've searched on this and found mostly references to other similar rounds, like
22-3000 Lovell
22 Maximum Lovell
2-R Lovell
22 Lovell

Midway lists 3 versions of dies:
22-3000 Lovell
22 Lovell 2R
22 Lovell R-2

Huntington lists 2 versions:
.22 Lovell R-2
.22/3000 Lovell

Is the 22 R Lovell the same thing as any of the above-listed variations, or are they all something different?

[Trophy Tom]

I believe the differences are in the taper of the case neck.
Not sure but I think the 22-3000
& 22 R Lovell are the same. I'll look in my wildcat cartridge book this morning to check


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bent Ramrod]

Look at your fired cases. The original .22-3000 Lovell had most of the body taper of the original .25-20 Single Shot cartridge from which it was derived.

It was made up especially for a powder called Hi-Vel #3, which was promptly discontinued. People complained that the accuracy or velocity or something of the .22-3000 was not there any more.

A guy named M. S. Risley then made a blown out Version 2.0 of the original Lovell, with about the same neck length ahead of the former taper and a sharp shoulder. This was the .22-3000 R-2 (or 2R) Lovell, which worked with most powders in the 4198 range. This is the most "common" version seen, but remember, there was no standardization and every gunsmith who could grind a half-reamer had his own idea of what the R-2 Lovell "was."

The Maximum Lovell had an exceedingly short neck, and was blown out straight for almost its entire length.

Probably the standard R-2 Lovell dies will work, but they may work the brass a little more or less than your exact chamber dimensions.

I think there are dimensioned drawings of all the Lovells in Landis' 22 Caliber Varmint Rifles.

[marlinman93]

You may want to have someone do a chamber cast to truly determine which version your 1885 is. Then contact the makers of the die sets you're considering and give them dimensions on your chamber casting to see which is closest to your gun's chamber.
Once you've got the die set and sized all your brass, I'd then set my dies to neck size only. This will eliminate working the brass and give you better cases life.

[brian1]

Thank you to all who responded. Very helpful info! I don't have any cases or ammo with the gun, but I will get the chamber cast and go from there.

I also found this posting on another board, which I will share with you:

The "22-3000" (or 22 Lovell) was a wildcat round developed by an American named Hervey (not Harvey) Lovell, about 1934. He accomplished this by taking the "25-20 Single Shot" case which is a bit longer than the regular 25-20 Win case and necked it down with a fairly smooth shoulder to .22 caliber. A bit quicker than the "Hornet", and inherently accurate; it became a common wildcat caliber in the USA and Canada.

In 1937, Harvey (yes Harvey) Donaldson with the help of M. Risley doing the reamer work, created the first improved form of the 22-3000 which became known as the "2R Lovell". The "2R" designation was due to the fact that it was the "2nd reamer" made by Risley that was utilized. Some references to this cartridge call it the 2R Donaldson further confusing the topic. The 2R Lovell has been described as the most popular .22 wildcat ever designed. J. B. Smith and Griffin & Howe of the USA both had factory runs of this ammunition made. (If memory serves me right, contracted to Winchester) . The original cases made from 25-20 SS (up to about 1935 then discontinued) are thin and "incipient head separation" is common and not necessarily signs of excessive high pressure. Later cases from Smith or G&H are much stronger.

The Lovell story does not end there, as various gunsmiths pushed the case development further by moving the shoulder forward & steepening it's angle to gain case capacity. This was known as the "Maximum Lovell"

Many campained Winchester and Remington for the 2R Lovell to be domesticated as a factory cartridge, WW2 came along and such interests obviously hit the backburner. Then in 1950 Remington brought out the 222 which was similar to the Lovell cartridges, only slightly larger and rimless. It is my understanding that the 222 was drawn on its own unique and new brass coin. This pretty much spelled a quick death to the Lovell series and Remington had no royalties or buy-outs to worry about. (Imagine the royalties on the 222/222Mag/and 223 line !!)

Disclaimers on any information following, as it is up to you to verify.
About 14.0 -14.5 grains of 4198 is the maximum you will be able to fit in a case without compression. Do NOT compress load !!! .
Also 4227 was a popular choice but as I got over 13.5 grains and more than 2600fps with 45 grain bullets the heads separated from my old 25-20SS cases nearly every round. These cases are not cheap either.

A fine modern choice that works well in my 2R Lovell is 12.5 to 13.0 grains of Hodgdon's Lil Gun. Again with 45 grain bullets.

As for cases, if you cannot sourse 25-20SS to convert, then try Rocky Mountain Cartridges. Great people who will turn you nicely boxed batches of 20. Although not drawn brass, I've had great success with their products including 2R Lovell.

Custom dies and reloading are of course a must and I went as far as to order a neck collet die from Lee's to minimize working of the brass.

I've gathered quite a bit of data from period publications such as American Rifleman, etc and even have a reproduction of a booklet produced in 1938 by B.L. Smith. Most of this I have compiled onto CD and offer it to those interested for the price of postage and blank CD (totally non-profit for sure).
My personal rifle in 2R Lovell is a Custom Model 8 BSA Martini which I thoroughly enjoy.
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty

[Drm50]

I had a Hopkins & Allen that was rebarreled to 22R Lovell and have had several 25/20 SS. Empty
cases in pic are 22R Lovell, the cartridge with boolit is a 25/20 SS. All my 22Rs formed from Win
25/20 SS.202160

[OlDeuce]

I came across this it may help
https://s20.postimg.org/sl1vf0df1/R-2_Dimensions_22lovell_ammo.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Ol Deuce

[gnoahhh]

I've owned a few Lovell rifles in my life. Favorite R2 Lovell was a Winchester HiWall w/single set trigger, heavy barrel, built by Jerry Gebby. Such a tack driver it was. My current Lovell is a .22 Maximum Lovell built on a single shot Krag with double set triggers by old Hervey Lovell himself (barrel and stock stamped as such). Such a tack driver it is too.

A couple of observations from shooting Lovell cartridges for almost 40 years now: 1) Don't hot rod them. Brass life is marginal to begin with, without stressing the brass to its limits- and brass isn't common or cheap. 2) Take old loading data published back in the 30's and 40's with a huge grain of salt. Powder formulas and primers have changed. 3) Griffin&Howe brass was and remains superb, but is mainly in hands of collectors now. If you stumble onto some, grab it. 4) The stuff made by Captech (Jamison) is superb, but pricey. Watch rim thicknesses. I've had issues with some Captech .25-20SS Basic Brass in that regard.

I still feel the Lovell-series of cartridges to be a better choice in single shots than .222-family cartridges, but that's me. Plus I no longer have the urge to whack groundhogs on the far side of cow pastures anymore, and punching holes in paper doesn't require the higher velocities of "modern" .22CF's.

[EDG]

I have a 1935 Winchester M70 Hornet barrel that has been re-chambered probably twice.
It is marked 22-3000 Lovell followed by 2R in a different font.

[ascast]

An interesting thread. Bent Ramrod got it in that anybody who could grind a half reamer could chamber a rifle. Standardization would only come after a major ammo/ gun maker picked up the cartridge. I have a Risley rifle he made for my dad that is in 30-06. It is way huge and full sizing brass they last about 2 reloads. It only shot he Sierra 125 grn pills with any thing resembling accurate. That pill would hit chucks at 150yds all day. Nothing else would at 50 yards. Very odd deal from a custom maker.

So the rest of the story. Marion Shirley Risley lived about a mile from me now. My dad courted his daughter for a couple years, as did many others. She was very good looking. She married a more prosperous farmer and moved down the valley 10 miles. I went to high school with his granddaughter and know her well still.

About 1999 or so the mother dies leaving all the farm to the her (the daughter). So, she decides it's time to clean out gramps shop and had an auction. Took two days. Boxes and boxes of actions, receivers, sights, scopes, swords, parts on and on...... whiskey barrels of barrels, barreled actions, stocks, on and on....

It was rumored she grossed over $140k, on the contents of a chicken coop about 20' by 30' . Of course, she gave me no advance notification and I was living 1,200 miles away.

Oh, there were cigar boxes full of reamers as well. Absolutely no doubt the first 2R Lovell reamer was there.

just thought I'd share that story

[uscra112]

I have been a Lovell 22-3000 fan for about 15 years. Done lots of study, have four single shots chambered for the R2 version. Winchester, Stevens, Krag, and a Ballard. Have yet to come up with an original slow-taper rifle to test.

Griffin & Howe brass was indeed made by Winchester. Ditto J.B.Smith's. I have collected, weighed and measured samples of both, along with UMC .25-20 SS brass. Also did the water test for volume. The G&H brass may be better quality metal, but it is NOT heavier or thicker than the old .25-20 brass. Probably because Lovell shooters in that time were after every kernel of powder they could pack in. Today, the best brass by far is Captech International's .25-20 Single Shot, which IS heavier. Enough so that capacity is reduced, and the old time loads must be backed off at least a full grain.

As far as I have found, the variation in the R2 chambers isn't so great as to worry too much about dies. Only oddball I've got it the Krag, which is chambered with the base diameter at .312, so normal .315 brass doesn't fit. I had to make a special die to "small base" a batch for that rifle. The other thing to watch carefully is the neck diameter. This was the era of "tight neck" chambering, and you will find that Captech brass will need to be turned to fit some if not most chambers properly. True of all of mine except the Winchester, barrel relined and I assume chambered by C.C.Johnson.

4198 is still my powder of choice for full-house loads with 50 to 55 grain bullets. I now do lesser loads with 45 grain bullets with Lil'Gun. Cast loads for the Ballard, 52 grain bullet, 2400 works, but I find that Blue Dot is right up there. keep meaning to try a cat-sneeze load with Red Dot, but never have.

[EddieCoyle]

Sorry about resurrecting a year+ old thread, but I found some data for this caliber and figured I'd post it for future use in case anyone might need it.

These pages are from the (Lyman) Ideal Handbook Number 37:

http://www.massreloading.com/images/lyman-ideal-117.jpg

http://www.massreloading.com/images/lyman-ideal-118.jpg

[brian1]

Some people criticize replying to an old thread. I see no problem with it. The info is as good and valid today as it was when the thread was created, even if it was 10+ years ago. Thanks for posting this helpful info!

[Reg]

Never saw this a couple of years ago but am glad to see it now. Thanks for bringing it back. Hope more can be added to it.

[Andy]

Agreed, never noticed this thread back then and glad someone brought it back to the top. I have a lyman tru-line jr die holder that is an odd number, the only reference I ever found to it was in an old chart where it was referred to as being for the 22 lovell.

Based on the info in this thread it sounds like this would fit anything based of the 25-20SS cartridge, is that correct? Are there any other common cartridges that are based of this same case or were the 22 Lovell variations and the 25-20 Single Shot pretty much it?

[uscra112]

The .25-20 Stevens was originally a wildcat based on a now-obscure cartridge known then as the .30 Wesson, made specifically for a revolving rifle that was singularly unsuccessful. Stevens added it to their line in the 1880s, and it was a mainstay for about 40 years. When everything was black-powder, it was very highly regarded for small game, but it became obsolete in the '20s and '30s, as smokeless .22 rimfires filled the small game role.

I know of no other wildcats that were based on the .25-20 Stevens case. By the time Lovell picked it up, the brass supply was already dwindling. Hence the Griffin & Howe brass that is still to be found, actually made by Winchester. Custom loader J.B. Smith also had his own headstamped brass. Varmint shooters wanted more out of the Lovell than it could actually deliver. The G&H brass was even thinner than the .25-20 cases that Lovell used, IMHO to allow another few kernels of powder in the loads, which sometimes hit 50,000 psi according to my studies. Needless to say, brass life tended to be short. The .222 Remington was what they really wanted, and they got it in 1950. We all know where that led.

BTW the Stevens cartridge wasn't called Single Shot until after Winchester introduced their .25-20 WCF. Prior to that, Winchester sold quite a few 1885 High Walls and Low Walls chambered for the Stevens cartridge, but they were marked just "25-20". The cartridge was sufficiently popular that they had to continue it in the 1885, but they weren't about to mark those rifles with a competitor's name, so they marked them ".25-20 SS" to distinguish them from the WCF cartridge they used in their lever actions. The name stuck.

[Bent Ramrod]

Shell holders that fit .25-20 Single Shot and .22 Lovell variants will also fit .32 Short and Long (Colt) rims, .32 Long Rifle, and probably the Extra Long as well.

The .25-20 Single Shot was also the parent case for the .17 Landis Woodsman, one of the very early .17 caliber varmint rounds. C. S. Landis describes his wildcat in his Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles, an underappreciated classic.

Landis might have had the only rifle so made up. I’ve never seen or heard of another.

[gnoahhh]

I too am glad to see this old thread resurrected. Since then I've added another R2 Lovell to my life. It is a "no name" custom, built on a nickel steel '03 Springfield action. Heavy barrel 25" long, 1.125" at receiver ring tapered to .900" at muzzle, 1-12" twist. Timney trigger, bolt face altered by having a steel ring installed to neatly enclose the case head of a Lovell cartridge, extractor hook built up accordingly, no means of ejection- you pluck the fired case out from under the extractor. Single shot, no magazine. No sights, Unertl scope bases only.

Its "original" stock was a much modified '03 Type-C stock, customized by our friend Bubba. (Painted on forend tip and PG cap, among other treats.) But, for $180 how could I say no?. It is now being inletted into a rather nice M2 Springfield stock, a move I'm deliberately taking rather than a fancier custom job- I'm rather enamored of the period "look". I waited until testing before putting any time/money into it. The 1/2" groups it turned in while wearing a 10x Unertl sold me on its potential.

I'll post pics when she's presentable again, even if it means re-resurrecting this post!

Phil, I swear I'm gonna take a drive to Ohio one day for some "Lovell Palavering"!!

[uscra112]

By end of next week I'll have possession of another Krag based Lovell. Low start price and I guess nobody noticed it. :D

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/799158239

I need another rifle like a fish needs a bicycle, but I could not pass it up at the price. Will have to do some scope swapping, but it's already got the blocks.

[gnoahhh]

Nice grab. You came thaaaaaat close to having competition for it!

[38Special]

Great old thread. Haven't got to fire mine yet... 22R Lovell built by R.E. Rodrick...

[38Special]

Some people criticize replying to an old thread. I see no problem with it. The info is as good and valid today as it was when the thread was created, even if it was 10+ years ago. Thanks for posting this helpful info!

There is a vast base of great knowledge here... people need to see it.

[uscra112]

Great old thread. Haven't got to fire mine yet... 22R Lovell built by R.E. Rodrick...

Do have/need brass?

[38Special]

Yes.. I do.

Question, can I use 25-20 dies with this cartridge?

Thanks,

James

[38Special]

Asking because a guy has a set of 25-20 wcf in swapping and selling.

[uscra112]

You could use the wcf dies to neck-size in a pinch. Ditto the seater die. In both cases you'de need a spacer ring, because the WCF cartridge is considerably shorter, (and fatter). To full-length size you'll need the correct Lovell dies for your rifle.

[Bent Ramrod]

The Lovell neck is already down to .22 caliber, so a .25-20 WCF sizer wouldn’t touch it.

You might get away with a .222 or .223 FLS die for neck sizing only. If your shells are from another rifle, you likely will need a dedicated Lovell FL sizer die.

[38Special]

Was gonna work on getting in the ball park, then fire form.

[uscra112]

The Lovell neck is already down to .22 caliber, so a .25-20 WCF sizer wouldn’t touch it.

You might get away with a .222 or .223 FLS die for neck sizing only. If your shells are from another rifle, you likely will need a dedicated Lovell FL sizer die.



D'UH! What was I thinking of? .218 Bee was what........

.25-20 wcf dies won't do anything for him.

Shoulda had that second cuppa coffee at breakfast!

[38Special]

Ah jeez... you think I'd take a look at my gear. I have a set of 22-3000 R2 dies that I forgot I bought. I need a shell holder and some brass. Haven't been to the range with my rifles since I moved, so kinda forgot what I already own. Probably have some brass somewhere too... but hasn't shown up yet.

James

[Green Frog]

38Special, you need a #19 Lyman shell holder. ;)

[Reverend Al]

Most of my .25-20SS brass is Lovel or 22-300 G&H brass that I fire-formed back into the parent .25-20SS ...

:smile:

https://i.imgur.com/RDe8Uly.jpg

[38Special]

38Special, you need a #19 Lyman shell holder. ;)

I do need one..!

[38Special]

Most of my .25-20SS brass is Lovel or 22-300 G&H brass that I fire-formed back into the parent .25-20SS ...

:smile:

https://i.imgur.com/RDe8Uly.jpg

Nice.

James

[ndnchf]

The ever versatile .25-20SS :-) I just bought a bunch of R2 Lovell made from it. I'll be transforming it into .32 Ballard Extra Long.

[MT Chambers]

The 25/20 ss is a great cartridge as it is, very accurate with the right cast boolit and breech seated.

[38Special]

Great EXSPENSIVE cartridge... lol. I'm gonna transform some from .223 Rem.

[gnoahhh]

Old thread resurrection time.

Yet another R2 Lovell added to the stable: Winchester High Wall built/barreled by an unknown. The receiver was a bit shabby so I had it color case hardened by CPA, turned out pretty decently. Stock was shabby also so I shortened the fore arm and varnished both pieces. Shoots very pleasingly with 45 grain Noslers and 12.5 grains Lil Gun, sub-MOA.

https://i.imgur.com/doiTulkl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/x4X3FXvl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6q9RVHIl.jpg

[Reg]

Glad to see this thread back. It’s really a neat cartridge. Brass still is hard to come by but I see the trend now is to accept lower velocities and get the longer case life and the generally superb accuracy. With this in mind it might be time to bring back the concept of making 25-20 SS cases from 223 brass. I tried this years back and then compared the results with what other cases I could round up. What few G&H and later Winchester cases I could find gave reasonable life and you could get the velocities , same with the old Rocky Mountain cases. But the formed 223 cases and especially the Bertram 25-20 SS cases gave incipient head fractures and the Bertram's blew the primer pockets oversized by the second reloading. I found by keeping velocities down around 2600/2750 or so I got good case life with all brass and the accuracy was excellent.

[brian1]

I've been busy making 25-20 SS and 22 R2 Lovell brass from .223 brass. Yes, it can be done. You need at least a 5-ton hydraulic press and a metal lathe, and it's a pretty laborious task, but the brass should be very strong and last a very long time.

[brian1]

Glad to see this thread back. It’s really a neat cartridge. Brass still is hard to come by but I see the trend now is to accept lower velocities and get the longer case life and the generally superb accuracy. With this in mind it might be time to bring back the concept of making 25-20 SS cases from 223 brass. I tried this years back and then compared the results with what other cases I could round up. What few G&H and later Winchester cases I could find gave reasonable life and you could get the velocities , same with the old Rocky Mountain cases. But the formed 223 cases and especially the Bertram 25-20 SS cases gave incipient head fractures and the Bertram's blew the primer pockets oversized by the second reloading. I found by keeping velocities down around 2600/2750 or so I got good case life with all brass and the accuracy was excellent.

You and I were writing about the 223 to 25-20SS at the same time. I haven't used mine much yet. You said you got incipient head fractures with yours. Are you sure you were pushing the donut all the way to the end? I understand the head will be weak if the donut doesn't go all the way. I cut a cross section in one of mine, and it's quite thick in that area.

[brian1]

Here is a cross section of the donut pushed all the way back. It seems hard to imagine it could separate just forward of that.
306489

And here is a case ready for turning next to one that's been turned and is ready for cutting to length.
306490

[38Special]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Life has kinda gotten in the way of my shooting, and I still haven't fired my Lovell, ever as yet. Haven't even looked at it for a few years. I don't get it. Need my head examined... lol

[ndnchf]

I make .32 Ballard extra long from .25-20SS and R2 Lovell. But I also make it from 327 magnum, which is not too hard to do.

[Reg]

You and I were writing about the 223 to 25-20SS at the same time. I haven't used mine much yet. You said you got incipient head fractures with yours. Are you sure you were pushing the donut all the way to the end? I understand the head will be weak if the donut doesn't go all the way. I cut a cross section in one of mine, and it's quite thick in that area.

It might well have been that I didn’t push things back far enough. I need to get back into this
Yes. I did get the fractures. I need to get back to the house and pull out some of the older material
I am thinking that what I noticed was I was getting was kind of folded over appearance rather than what you show as a solid wave appearance. With what you are showing I bet you could get to the upper velocities as you are forming a good solid head. It should be very strong but the internal capacity should be reduced. I didn’t have the 7 M/m dies but used a set of 7 m/m Mag dies for my forming die. I doubt if it made any difference as it was the dia. at the neck that we were after.
Will try to post some pics tomorrow

[uscra112]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.
306506306505

[brian1]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.
306506306505

You are the gentleman who taught me how to make these, so thanks for your help. It's slow going, but it does work.

[uscra112]

Slow going it certainly is! When Jamison came out with their good quality .25-20 I rejoiced, and bought a metric short ton of it instantly! Now Jamison/Captech is gone, and we're back to square one.

I still use a few of the converted .223 for a very rare Stevens, circa 1874, that was originally chambered .22-20 (the almost unknown Harwood Hornet). Some philistine sleeved the chamber and converted it to the modern Hornet, which was stupid because the old round is .228" groove, so modern ammo doesn't work well at all. (On this account I got it for peanuts.) I converted it back, but the sleeving job was so poorly done that it needs cases with a very heavy wall, and I get that by using the converted cases.

Something interesting about the 1894 .22-20 is that the case is almost exactly the .22 R2, but with the shoulder pushed back about 1/4". Hence I used my R2 reamer for much of the restoration.

[cupter]

Keep the thread going..........................>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Reg]

In making R2 from .223, you absolutely must do the initial pressing so it gets right down to the rim. If you don't, you wind up with a thin region just above the web, which is an open invitation to head separations.
306506306505

Could I ask, what are you using for your forming die?

[brian1]

The female part is the neck portion of a 7x57mm FL die, as it is just the right diameter. The male part is turned from steel to approximately the shape of a 7mm case. My setup requires about 7,000 pounds of force to push the case through. If I go over 4 tons, I am pushing the donut back too far and into the rim.
I'll try to take some detailed pics later

[Reg]

The female part is the neck portion of a 7x57mm FL die, as it is just the right diameter. The male part is turned from steel to approximately the shape of a 7mm case. My setup requires about 7,000 pounds of force to push the case through. If I go over 4 tons, I am pushing the donut back too far and into the rim.
I'll try to take some detailed pics later

Cannot find my earlier notes other than I continuously ran into that inner fracture. The cases made great 25-20 SS cases that seem to last forever but with the additional pressure of the R-2 they cracked out often on the first or second loading.
I don’t have a set of regular 7 m/m dies but am using 7 m/m Mag. The neck dim seems to be the same and for a press it’s a 30 ton elec/hyd. If I can just move the brass to get rid of that inner ring I think it will be a good source of R-2 ! Any info you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[uscra112]

I used the 7x57 die because 7x57 has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the 7mms.

[Reg]

I used the 7x57 die because 7x57 has the shallowest shoulder angle of any of the 7mms.

I wonder if that shoulder angle could have anything to do with how the brass flows??

[uscra112]

I'm sure it does. You want the metal squeezed inward, not just mashed up against the rim. I would have been happier with an even shallower angle, but the 7x57 was the best I could find among the 7mms.

[Reg]

I'm sure it does. You want the metal squeezed inward, not just mashed up against the rim. I would have been happier with an even shallower angle, but the 7x57 was the best I could find among the 7mms.

You have me thinking now. Need to get a couple of things out of the way before I can try it but I am thinking of making a pre form die using a taper pin reamer. This might move more of the brass inward with less of the swelling on the outside and might completely eliminate the possibility of the ring forming ???

[uscra112]

Worth a try, but it would have to be hardened and polished, I would think.

I never saw that "ring" issue, but I was aware that it could happen, and worked to prevent it.

[brian1]

I just made a video of the process of how to do this. I am no video guy, and my knowledge of how to use my video editing software does not extend beyond the absolute basics, but hopefully this rather hokey video I put together will give you a picture of the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sZqUX731qo

[gnoahhh]

Make no apologies, Brian. That's a very informative video. Speaking as one who is prepping to convert around 10,000 Lake City .223's into ..25-20 SS and Lovell brass this winter (well, maybe only a hundred or so to start!), you've answered a couple niggling thoughts.

I'll be using a big old monster arbor press, don't ask me its tonnage because I don't know. Leverage augmented with a cheater pipe. Your hints for using a nipple to prevent the primer pocket from collapsing and a reference line inscribed on the pusher probably saved me some grief. I figure on making a stop block under the ram of the press also to limit travel, cut-and-try until desired depth is achieved.

My lathe is rather a lot more primitive than yours though. While it runs true, and the tail stock is centered dead nuts, it is indeed an 80 year old Sebastian with no digital controls for depth of cut and feed, it's purely analog - so that is my biggest stumbling block to overcome. Consistently repetitive cuts are paramount, at least for "production" work. I'll work it out. I hope!

Do you see any advantage to annealing any portion of the brass during the process (taking care to avoid such in the case head area of course)?

Have you found any .223 brass to work better than others? (My joke about using Lake City stuff was that, a joke - if I'm going to all this trouble I wish to use something that probably hasn't been fired already. I have a couple hundred virgin pieces of Lapua brass earmarked for the project.) Did I see you employing Imperial Sizing Wax as a lubricant?

[uscra112]

My original pressing punch has a shoulder that stops it on the mouth of the 7mm die. Hence controlling the pressure is not an issue so long as it's enough. I used to run my press's gage up to about 4000 psi.

Federal .223 worked best for me. Seemed to need less pressure.

In the lathe: Make the driver of steel, not aluminum. Make a steel rod about 2" long and the diameter of the case mouth, with a tiny tit on the front end to center it in the flash hole, and a 60 degree center on the other end. (Center in the photo below) With this you can put some pressure on with the live center to keep the case from slipping on the driver. Now you can take the whole final diameter in one cut. I just left the cross slide at .315", moved the carriage out in Z about a half inch while setting a new piece, then light feed to the end-point in Z. A SHARP carbide tool with about 2 degrees of back rake works best. Miked each case before taking it out of the lathe, and gave it a lick with a safe-edged lathe file if it wasn't down to size. (Safe edge to avoid taking any metal off the rim, which is already too thin.)

(My Krag's chamber was cut small. I had to make a batch with base diameter .312" max to get them to fit. These needed more than a light lick with the file.)

306693

n.b. I opened the .223 to .257 as the first step. Thus the two tools that enter the case mouth can be 1/4" diameter.

[brian1]

A DRO is a huge aid in this, once I got it set up (mainly using an original 25-20SS case as the guide). You can probably get it close with judicious wheel reading.
There is no need for annealing until you start forming the neck.
The forces involved are not all that great - until you get to the last 1/4 or 1/8 inch, it doesn't even register on my force dial.
As far as making it, I saw no difference in what brass I used. Mostly I used new Privi Partizan .223. I also tried it with some old Lake City 5.56mm and it formed up same as the rest. I haven't yet shot it, though. In fact, the one case you see me forming in the press is a used LC.
Yes, I use Imperial Sizing Wax for this and everything reloading.
It is slow and tedious work. I've been working on this bag of 50 for months (intermittently). Lately, I've been on a big push to get it done so I can free up my lathe for other work.
I did find that pressing to a line worked better than trying to press to a particular pressure. To establish the line, I just pressed a bit more at a time until I liked what I had, then I just marked the piston where it was flush with the top of the die.

[brian1]

My original pressing punch has a shoulder that stops it on the mouth of the 7mm die. Hence controlling the pressure is not an issue so long as it's enough. I used to run my press's gage up to about 4000 psi.
.

I was originally going to use the shoulder idea, but I didn't know exactly where to make it, so I went ahead and made the punch without one, then experimented with working my way toward where I wanted the end result to be. I probably should weld a stop washer onto my punch now, to make the pressing part a bit quicker than trying to eyeball that fine stop line.

[brian1]

In the lathe: Make the driver of steel, not aluminum. Make a steel rod about 2" long and the diameter of the case mouth, with a tiny tit on the front end to center it in the flash hole, and a 60 degree center on the other end. (Center in the photo below) With this you can put some pressure on with the live center to keep the case from slipping on the driver. Now you can take the whole final diameter in one cut. I just left the cross slide at .315", moved the carriage out in Z about a half inch while setting a new piece, then light feed to the end-point in Z. A SHARP carbide tool with about 2 degrees of back rake works best. Miked each case before taking it out of the lathe, and gave it a lick with a safe-edged lathe file if it wasn't down to size. (Safe edge to avoid taking any metal off the rim, which is already too thin.)


I should probably try this on the next batch. Part of the tedium is taking the donut down in lots of 2-3 thousandths fine cuts.

[uscra112]

Good plan. It's tedious enough without having to squint to see a line.

[marlinman93]

Yesterday a old friend gave me a bunch of very old sealed boxes of bullets. A couple were of really special interest to me as they are made by Sisk, and are both .22 caliber. One marked "Niedner" in large letters, and the other marked "Lovell"! I would guess they're based on some design that Niedner and Lovell came up with for Sisk? I'm curious what they look like, but not planning on breaking the seals to look at them!

[uscra112]

I have the idea that Sisk did the designing. He had at least half a dozen weights for the Lovell alone. I have several unsealed boxes, meaning to try them against our modern factory bullets, but never have.

Then there were at least one or two weights for a Niedner cartridge and a couple for the Hornet in each diameter.

As prolific as he was, I have read that every bullet was formed on a hand operated press.

[gnoahhh]

I've shot a bunch of Sisk Lovell bullets over the years (yeah I cut the seals, can't shoot them if they're in the box!), and while they shot ok they didn't behave like modern Sierras or Bergers. The ones I really like though are the 70 grain Sisk's for the Savage .22 High Power.

[marlinman93]

I've shot a bunch of Sisk Lovell bullets over the years (yeah I cut the seals, can't shoot them if they're in the box!), and while they shot ok they didn't behave like modern Sierras or Bergers. The ones I really like though are the 70 grain Sisk's for the Savage .22 High Power.

I've got thousands of jacketed .22 bullets, so no need to break into these vintage bullets. I used to do a lot of varmint hunting with my .22-250 Rem. 700 VSF, and played with everything from as light as 40 grs., up to 65 grs.

[gnoahhh]

I've got thousands of jacketed .22 bullets, so no need to break into these vintage bullets. I used to do a lot of varmint hunting with my .22-250 Rem. 700 VSF, and played with everything from as light as 40 grs., up to 65 grs.

I hear you, Vall. I too have more jacketed .22 bullets than Carter's got Little Liver Pills. It's just that some things in my life I just can't bring myself to "collect" - I gotta draw the line somewhere. Speaking as someone who's main pleasures are derived from playing with the old stuff I sometimes decry the fact that so much of it has disappeared into collections and out of the reach of we users. Guns, sights, ammo/brass/bullets/etc. have fallen prey to those with "collector mentalities" leaving us with "shoot the heck out of stuff mentalities" scratching our butts! Case in point: I bet there's a significant amount of G&H .22-3000 brass buried in cartridge collections that would keep the handful of us old farts who still play with Lovell wildcats and .25-20 SS's going until the end of our days. But no, they've achieved "collectible" status with attendant value escalation and as such will never have their seals broken and fed into neat old rifles - leaving us to have to resort to laborious machinations to make them.

[marlinman93]

I started buying old ammo, and various reloading supplies when nobody wanted it. Back then the old 2 piece lift top boxes of ammo from the late 1800's and early 1900's was maybe $5 a box, and only got $10 if it was full and pristine. My gun buddies I went to shows with always asked why I bought that old stuff, especially if I didn't own a gun in the cartridge? I just bought it because it was cheap, and funds were limited, so I could afford it then.
I haven't bought any old ammo or components in many years, and whatever I've gotten in recent years was given to me by friends. It's all just gone nuts with so much going to internet sales, and driving prices crazy.
I collect, and I shoot, but I don't mind shooting or reloading old cartridges if they're already incomplete, or have been reloaded previously. In fact a lot of stuff that's been reloaded people didn't want at all, and it was even cheaper. I took it home and pulled bullets, and dumped powder to get good brass to shoot. I just wont do it for ammo or components that are complete and in great shape.
I bought a 1885 High Wall last year from a friend that was in .219 Ackley Improved. It came with a bunch of formed brass, and loaded ammo, but also some original Norma loaded in .219 Zipper. I didn't need to shoot that, so I took it with me to the Denver gun show that year and put it on the table cheap at $20 a box. Didn't get a single taker, so I later sold the gun and let the buyer have it all. I thought there'd be plenty of guys wanting that ammo, but guess I was wrong.

[gnoahhh]

Yes, strange times we live in.

[TheCounty]

Thanks so much to brian1 and uscra112 for the details on fettling .223 cases into Lovell form.
I had heard snippets that it could be done, but silly me not figuring to swage down the case, I had thought it may have been an old wives tale.
I really appreciate the details for the turning and am on the lookout to score a 7 x 57 die at the spring gun show & giving it a go.
Just scored 65 good brass at an auction several weeks ago. A mixed bag of WRA,Smith,G&H,Rem,and UMC mostly in "Maximum Lovell" but a few in 2R.
I turned up a swaging die years ago to tailor the head section down to .314 to suit my rifle but as you can appreciate it only can reduce the diameter .002" or maybe .003" on a case without burnishing up a ridge. Salvages a few otherwise unusable cases.
I've about 20 cases that must have been used in a chamber a bit oversized as they measure .320" to .323" next to the rim. These will have to wait for another Lovell rifle to come along that they may fit.
I've posted a short blurb on the Lovell cartridge history on several forums which you likely have seen. I still offer a CD with a compilation of Lovell period articles and other information along with e-copy of Smiths' booklet on the 22-3000.
I enjoy knowing that there are a few others still tinkering with these old cartridges.
Cheers
TheCounty

[uscra112]

I'd be interested in seeing that CD. While I probably won't be shooting any of my Lovells again, owing to health issues, the history still intrigues me.

[brian1]

Thanks so much to brian1 and uscra112 for the details on fettling .223 cases into Lovell form.
I had heard snippets that it could be done, but silly me not figuring to swage down the case, I had thought it may have been an old wives tale.
I really appreciate the details for the turning and am on the lookout to score a 7 x 57 die at the spring gun show & giving it a go.
Just scored 65 good brass at an auction several weeks ago. A mixed bag of WRA,Smith,G&H,Rem,and UMC mostly in "Maximum Lovell" but a few in 2R.
I turned up a swaging die years ago to tailor the head section down to .314 to suit my rifle but as you can appreciate it only can reduce the diameter .002" or maybe .003" on a case without burnishing up a ridge. Salvages a few otherwise unusable cases.
I've about 20 cases that must have been used in a chamber a bit oversized as they measure .320" to .323" next to the rim. These will have to wait for another Lovell rifle to come along that they may fit.
I've posted a short blurb on the Lovell cartridge history on several forums which you likely have seen. I still offer a CD with a compilation of Lovell period articles and other information along with e-copy of Smiths' booklet on the 22-3000.
I enjoy knowing that there are a few others still tinkering with these old cartridges.
Cheers
TheCounty

Are you located in Canada?

[TheCounty]

Hi uscra112, I'll pm you my e-mail so you can give me an address to send a CD to.

Hi brian1, & yes I'm from Canada. North shore of Lake Ontario to narrow it down a bit.
Cheers

[brian1]

@TheCounty I thought so. I remember you. Back several years ago, I had gotten my first 22 R2 Lovell rifle, and I didn't know anything about the caliber. Through some forum I don't recall, I made contact with you and you were MOST helpful in giving me information, as well as your generous sharing of your information CD. I appreciated very much all your helpfulness, so thanks again! Since then, I have learned a lot more about the cartridge, and I've acquired several more rifles chambered with it.
Both you and @uscra112 have been most helpful in expanding my knowledge in this area.
Thanks again and best wishes,
Brian

[brian1]

I'd be interested in seeing that CD. While I probably won't be shooting any of my Lovells again, owing to health issues, the history still intrigues me.

I'm sorry to hear of your health issues. Best wishes to you.

[TheCounty]

Nice to cross paths again Brian. :)
Also wishing uscra112 the best.
Cheers
ps Another little tidbit regarding the Lovell cartridges that eluded me was the mention, in an old issue of Cartridges of the World, that the Lovell was the first case of a wildcat being formulated out of another wildcat. It seemed to be worded that J. Francis Rabbeth had wildcatted the original 25-20 Single Shot and I found other reference to him being the "first" to wildcat a round, that being the 25-20 Single Shot. No where could I find what Rabbeth had used for the parent case. Finally it surfaced that he used a 32-25 Wesson centerfire. What a rare duck to fettle with. Frank Wesson ( Brother to the Wesson of "Smith&Wesson") made tip-up rifles largely in rimfire, but in the trailing years made a few centerfire calibers & this was one of them. I have one picture of a sample of this round and have a chart of data for his cartridges which show the matching dimensions. Now if I can only find a Wesson tip-up in 32-25 Wesson centerfire I'll have the history right to the start.... haha.

[uscra112]

Have you turned up any of the articles by Allyn Tedmon?

Another bit of the Rabbeth legend is that he first tried to use the Wesson case with a 7mm inside-lubed bullet, but felt it was too destructive, so he necked the case down to .25 caliber.

There's a sidebar to the story - Rueben Harwood, a gunsmith and writer working in Somerville, Mass., in the 1890s, necked the case down still further to make a round called the .22-20 "Harwood Hornet". There's a picture of it in one of Harvey Donaldson's articles, and it looks for all the world like a long-necked R2 Lovell.! So close that when it came to repairing a Stevens 108 that had originally been chambered thus, I used my R2 reamer for part of the job.

[TheCounty]

That name does not sound familiar.

[uscra112]

He wrote articles for the American Rifleman, some of which were quite humorous. He was a devoted Stevens fan, and one of his last crusades was to get some ammo manufacturer to load a "high velocity" version of the .25 rimfire. In another he was talking about loading the .25-20 to something over 1800 fps. A scheme I took a bit farther; my first .25-20 was on a 44-1/2 action, and I had it to 1950 fps using an 85 grain jacketed softpoint. That one accounted for a few woodchucks when I lived in Michigan, until I realized that the bullets were too strong for that velocity, and would ricochet off hard ground after passing through the victim. The load and rifle were deadly accurate, though.

[brian1]

Nice to cross paths again Brian. :)
Also wishing uscra112 the best.
Cheers
ps Another little tidbit regarding the Lovell cartridges that eluded me was the mention, in an old issue of Cartridges of the World, that the Lovell was the first case of a wildcat being formulated out of another wildcat. It seemed to be worded that J. Francis Rabbeth had wildcatted the original 25-20 Single Shot and I found other reference to him being the "first" to wildcat a round, that being the 25-20 Single Shot. No where could I find what Rabbeth had used for the parent case. Finally it surfaced that he used a 32-25 Wesson centerfire. What a rare duck to fettle with. Frank Wesson ( Brother to the Wesson of "Smith&Wesson") made tip-up rifles largely in rimfire, but in the trailing years made a few centerfire calibers & this was one of them. I have one picture of a sample of this round and have a chart of data for his cartridges which show the matching dimensions. Now if I can only find a Wesson tip-up in 32-25 Wesson centerfire I'll have the history right to the start.... haha.

I have a couple Frank Wesson guns. One in .32RF, one in .44RF
https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Frank_Wesson_Rifles

First Type in .44RF. These are really cool. It took me awhile to figure out how to open one. It has to be in half-cock, then pull the front "trigger" and it opens:
311128

Small Frame Pocket Rifle (10") in .32RF:
311129

[577450]

This .223 conversion has been interesting. I have a Belgian folder chambered .257, in a pretty much straight case based on 25-20 SS at about 1.2 inches. I have been using 22R stuff I found, but whether age or pressure caused there are a few split cases . I have a lathe and this seems an interesting alternative. John

[TheCounty]

Nice Wessons Brian. As you are familiar with the ilk, have you ever seen a Wesson tip-up rifle in centerfire or referenced any details about them. What little I've found indicate Wesson made a few in 32 and 44 centerfire calibers, but I would like a bit more confirmation on what was actually produced in the way of rifles and ammo.
Cheers

[brian1]

I haven't seen a Wesson in centerfire. I'll have to keep my eyes open for one. I thought I had a rifle that would shoot centerfire or rimfire, and I finally found it. It's a Marlin Ballard #2. I'm not clear exactly what caliber it is. I did a bunch of research on it a couple years ago, then moved on to other projects. I fired some .32-20 in it, with some signs of excessive headspace. Supposedly, it is supposed to be a smaller 32, like 32 Ballard, but the chamber is too large for that.

[TheCounty]

Hey uscra112. Any chance you know what American rifle issues those were in?
Pushing something like the 25-20SS is what makes me think you would be an awesome neighbor.
Brian as well.
Cheers

[Bent Ramrod]

One of Tedmon’s articles is in the August 1931 American Rifleman. It’s titled “Small Deer Rifles.”

Tedmon was called “The Godfather of Stevens Rifles.” He was scrounging and rebuilding Stevens wrecks in the Favorite, 44 and (0)44-1/2 Ideal configurations all through the Twenties and Thirties. I was sufficiently inspired to cobble my 414 wreck/parts collection into a Tedmon-style rebuild. Not an original, and would be called a butcher job these days, but it looks very “period” for the cash-strapped Depression.

The similarity between the shapes of the .22 WCF and the .25-20 SS engendered a relatively brief period of souping-up of the latter shell’s loadings to produce a .25-20 “express” version on the order of the .22 Hornet. For some reason, it didn’t catch on, even though the Hornet, of course, became enormously popular. Probably the problem was that the hotted-up .25-20 was neither fish nor fowl: still too small for big game and way overkill for small game. For varmints, the distinction between blowing a large hole through them with the Hornet and blowing them to bits with the .25-20 Express was less important than the range advantage the same case necked to .22 would offer.

Other articles covering the development are “An Ideal Vermin Combination,” by Hilary McInturff, Am. Rifleman Sept. 1932; “The .25-20 Single Shot Express,” by David A. Drew, Jr., Am. Rifleman April 1932, and “A Slow-Twist .25-20 Single Shot,” by W. F. Vickery, Am. Rifleman October 1935. Vickery chambered one of those “underbore-size” .25 Stevens RF barrels to .25-20 SS and converted the action to centerfire. He indicated that the shooting gave up nothing to the standard groove diameter and twist centerfire barrels.

I did a little messing around with these loads, since I have a can of DuPont 1204 powder and the 60-gr Hornady FP, the Arizona Bullet Co. 60-gr PSP and the Winchester 60-gr HP. The last bullet, especially, shot really well, but since everything but the primers was obsolete by then, it was pretty much an exercise in nostalgia.

[TheCounty]

Thanks Bent Ramrod. I found a site online with digital copies & just finished the article. Tedmon's style of writing is of a type I really enjoy. He certainly seemed progressive on his liking of a scoped rifle. Article also reminded me of years back when shooting prairie dogs with my brother in Alberta. What a hoot, both with open sites snapshooting and scoped .22s. Now that I've found a site with the American Rifleman copies I'm going to be doing a bit more reading the next few days, improving my familiarity with the 25-20SS. Good timing with a snow storm coming in.
Cheers

[uscra112]

Be sure to check the "Dope Bag" columns in those.

[Reg]

Could I ask what was the site that had the old Rifleman’s on it.
Looks like some good reading in general. There were a lot of interesting things
going on back then.

[uscra112]

To think of all the time and money I spent collecting almost every issue from Number One to 1980, and now here they are online. :violin:

But then I also read every one from cover to cover, so there's that.

Remembering that upstate New York and Ontario were the two hotbeds of Lovell activity in its' heyday.

[Bent Ramrod]

Those old Riflemans were great, all right. Even the advertisements are interesting now. Lots of amateurs experimenting with guns and loads, with the occasional product review and the even more occasional political notice.

The only periodicals that have that mix now are the specialty quarterlies like BPCR News, The Single Shot Journal and The ARTCA Journal. And, of course, Internet sites like this one.

[uscra112]

Yeah, it was a genuine technical publication in those days. Reading it was almost a graduate course in small arms technology.

Bought a keepsake last week. A set of steel Ideal tong tool handles actually marked 2RLOVELL.

[TheCounty]

For Reg & others interested, found American Rifleman digitally at : https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=amerrifle
Also found article in January 1936 issue by Donaldson on the origins of the 25-20SS . Confirmed the .32 Wesson parent (and Lovell's grandparent...haha)
Yup, I'm burrowing into those old American Rifleman issues like a badger into a sand pile. Whooot Whoot !!!
Cheers

[uscra112]

You're going to become the Tom Rowe of the .22 Lovell.

You ARE going to publish a coffee-table book, aren't you?

[uscra112]

BTW you have to watch out for Donaldson. A man of my acquaintance who knew him well said to me that concerning his own accomplishments he was the greatest liar since Elmer Keith.

[uscra112]

You have the books by Landis and F.C.Ness of course. Ness wrote the Dope Bag column for about a decade, and was a big booster of the .22-3000 Lovell.

[Reg]

For Reg & others interested, found American Rifleman digitally at : https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=amerrifle
Also found article in January 1936 issue by Donaldson on the origins of the 25-20SS . Confirmed the .32 Wesson parent (and Lovell's grandparent...haha)
Yup, I'm burrowing into those old American Rifleman issues like a badger into a sand pile. Whooot Whoot !!!
Cheers

Wow ! Now that is a goldmine! Thank you. Have it bookmarked!

[TheCounty]

A coffee table book ! Thanks for your confidence in me uscra112. The CD compilation, as informal as it is may be, is likely my magnum opus.
About 20 years back I happened across a super deal on 2 small frame Martinis. One a Model 12 bull barrel target converted to .22WMR and the other a Model 8 in Lovell 2R.
This got me on the search. Then I happened to contact a gentleman in Alaska by the name of Micheal Petrov. He sent me a copy of the 22-3000 booklet by Smith along with a few other Lovell tidbits. The idea of gathering as much Lovell info as I could into a bit of easy reference & share with others he felt would be worthwhile & that is what I've tried to do haphazardly over the years. I was saddened to hear of Mr. Petrov's passing a few years back, as he was top notch nice & of the "pay it forward" concept in that he did not want monetary compensation for small favors but that those receiving pass it on to others. I was raised similarly by my father & feel that there is a bit of karma attached to this. Therein is a brief summary of my background on this topic. Not a professional for sure.
Need to pick up Ness' book yet, but quite familiar with the dope bag from the issues of American Rifleman I do have.
I may try to summarize in writing the method to convert .223 to Lovell and add it to the CD. Still spending too much time reading the e-copies of AR at the moment ..haha.
That & sorting/refurbishing/reloading the cases I recently aquired.
Cheers

[uscra112]

Alibris lists two copies of the Ness book.

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=practical+dope+on+the+.22&hs.x=27&hs.y=23

Only one copy of Landis, and it's "spendy" as they say in Minnisoter.

https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=landis+.22+varmint+rifles&hs.x=27&hs.y=25

[gnoahhh]

Indeed, it's high time somebody did a book on the whole .25-20 Single Shot world from soup to nuts, Stevens to Lovell and everything in between. I would fork over big dollars for a copy (or trade a few pieces of brass)!!

[brian1]

For Reg & others interested, found American Rifleman digitally at : https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=amerrifle
Also found article in January 1936 issue by Donaldson on the origins of the 25-20SS . Confirmed the .32 Wesson parent (and Lovell's grandparent...haha)
Yup, I'm burrowing into those old American Rifleman issues like a badger into a sand pile. Whooot Whoot !!!
Cheers

That is a fantastic resource. And here I've been saving all my Dad's Rifleman going back into the 50s. Amazing stuff in there. As my Dad used to lament, even 30 years ago, the Rifleman was a hollow shell of what it had once been. Even more so now. Those old ones were really great.

[brian1]

I may try to summarize in writing the method to convert .223 to Lovell and add it to the CD. Still spending too much time reading the e-copies of AR at the moment ..haha.
Cheers
If you need any of the photos I took, or if you need any other photos or details or anything, be sure to let me know.

[TheCounty]

Thanks for the links uscra112, & I have seen similar comments on Donaldson...chuckle.
Also thanks brian, if I need photos I'll let you know. The video is excellent btw.
gnoahhh check your PM
Cheers

[schutzen-jager]

fyi - if you can find a copy of F.C. Ness book, practical dope on .22 published in1947 it has over 10 pages on the cartridge - it has case + chamber dimensional drawings on both the 22-300 + 2R versions - best i could do with photos -

[uscra112]

Amazon has "Practical Dope on the .22" also

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935632808/ref=olp-opf-redir?aod=1

[schutzen-jager]

my copy is going to auction this fall, along with my 6+ decades of books + reference materials - hope it gets the Amazon prices, it was a $7.95 book in 1947 -

[Bent Ramrod]

Frank deHaas mentions some history and his own experiences with the Lovell .22s and the .25-20SS in Mr. Single Shot’s Cartridge Handbook.

Old Harve was a character, all right. But in times where the technology reaches a point where sudden rapid advances are possible, the same ideas will occur to a lot of people “skilled in the art.” Whoever gets into print or gets the patent first is celebrated forever as the Discoverer, and the rest, some of whom may indeed have been into the development earlier, are left in the “fun facts” category for the rest of time. Or to toot their own horns, to the ever-diminishing edification of those having to listen to them.

Stable smokeless powders and noncorrosive, nonmercuric primers enabled easily-workable high-velocity smallbore development. Once those components were available, everybody got on the bandwagon.

[TheCounty]

I do have some of the above mentioned author's articles & excerpts in my files and on the CD I send out.
I do need to do an inventory in the library soon. Always on the lookout for a few of the missing books, but shipping from the USA into Canada usually adds considerable to the cost.
Out of 86 cases obtained in auction recently, 31 in good shape and reloading is in process, 28 were salvageable for a Maximum Lovell with an oversized case diameter at the rim, and of the rest...11 trash and the remainders I will assemble inert for cartridge collectors. Fingers crossed that it is not a steady batch of case head separations.
I've my own tools made up for case removal when the head comes out & leaves most of the case in. The first is a .180 diameter brass peg with a bit of a raised edge on the end to hook on the front of the case mouth. More serious ones return to the bench for a shielded tap to be lightly set into remainder of case and then tapped free with a cleaning rod. Any other cures to share?
Cheers

[uscra112]

.22 Lovell brass life was notoriously short. They were loading a case that was adequate for 15,000 psi to over 50,000 in some instances, like those deHaas mentioned. When G&H had Winchester make a run of brass for them, they made it even thinner, (I've measured it), I suppose in search of more powder capacity. What they were reaching for became reality when Remington introduced the .222, at which point the popularity of the Lovell seems to evaporated.

Brass made from .223 goes the other way. So much so that old published loads have to be reduced by at least a full grain.

BTW Lil'Gun powder, if you can get it, will be kinder to your cases than either of the traditional powders. It has a "fat tail" to the pressure/time curve, imparting equal velocity at lower peak pressure.

[gnoahhh]

Any suggestions (starting point mainly but max too) for Lil Gun in the Lovells, Phil? I've been sticking with 4198, 4227 up until now but was gifted 8 pounds on top of the couple pounds I've been using just for Hornets so I can now see my way clear to expand its use into my Lovells.

[uscra112]

For a 45 grain bullet seated .100" deep, 12 grains to start. About 14 ought to be max. My Krag liked the staring load, so I never went higher. Shocking how many years have passed since that outing.

n.b. That was in Jamison brass, which is thicker than G&H.

[TheCounty]

I did try Lil Gun back in 2004 & starting at 12.5gr went to 13.0 and stopped due to cases separating even though it worked well. I was showing a bit over 2900 ft/sec on the chrony with 45 grain Hornady .223 Hornets. Using 4227 was even worse for case separation, & why I have stuck to using 4198. My notes show that the cases were all WRA 25-20 SS so this may have been part of the issue. If I get to fettling cases from some .223 maybe I shall revisit the Lil Gun.
My fallback is 14.5 gr IMR4198 using the .223 Hornady Hornet bullets. This yields about 2800 to 2850 ft/sec & is quite accurate.
I suspect the old chaps were really compressing the powder when they were getting over 3000 ft/sec. as anything near 15.0 grains does not even fit in the case.
Hate to guess the pressures they were churning up.
As always start lower & work up.
Cheers

[uscra112]

Oh, they were. Dehass speaks of 4198 full to the mouth, then seating the bullet. Quickload figures that at ~55,000 psi with a 50 grain bullet. Fill ratio 111%.

[gnoahhh]

Thanks fellas. "We Band of Brothers must hang together or we'll hang separately." (How's that for mixing metaphors?!)

[brian1]

Amazon has "Practical Dope on the .22" also

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0935632808/ref=olp-opf-redir?aod=1

I bought this book. Here are some pages that I thought you all would find interesting:
311570

311571

311572

311573

311574

311575

Apparently the forum software limits how big the pics are, as the ones I posted are twice as big as these. If someone wants the larger, more readable ones, send me your email address

[uscra112]

But some gunsmiths seem to have ignored the drawings, as my original Krag (I now have two) will attest. That one's chamber is only .312 at the base, which gave me no end of trouble the first time I had it out. "Standard" brass would get crowded into the chamber, it being a bolt action, and I had to drive every one out with a range rod, no matter how mild the load. I made a special die to "small-base" the brass for that rifle, and I have to keep its' brass segregated.

BTW my only notes show that I was using 12.0 grains of Lil'Gun in Jamison brass, (which is a little heavier than G&H), 45 grain Hornet bullet.
Avg. velocity 2845 fps, SD 33.95. Not sure of the seating depth, as I was using a gunsmith-made Wilson-type straight-line seater that came with the gun.

[TheCounty]

On the other end of the spectrum uscra112, some of the used cases I shelved for now have a base diameter of .320" and over. I would love to inspect whatever rifle they were used in. Who ever made the reamer gave ample clearance or was not very competent. Should at least have had the capabilities even back then to get the base diameter within a few thousands . Interestingly I also have a dimensional drawing from a site titled "thereloadbench" for the 22 Maximum Lovell showing a .320" base diameter. Not sure where the dimensions came from, but find it odd that they would be that far off the established diameter for the parent case. Possibly someone taylored a reamer using this diagram. A bit of a head scratcher.
Cheers

[uscra112]

It would not surprise me if that turned out to be deliberate. There never was an "established" set of dimensions for the Lovell. SAAMI never accepted it, so it was every gunsmith for himself as far as reamer dimensions went.

Wildcatters were of course scratching and clawing for every bit of powder space they could find. This I think is why the G&H brass is even thinner than the typical .25-20 brass of the period, which wasn't all that heavy itself. (I know - I've weighed and sectioned samples.) Shooters wouldn't get what they wanted until Mike Walker's .222 Remington came out in 1950, after which the Lovell was rather abruptly a dead letter.

Phil

[brian1]

I was looking up some unrelated info (trying to find anything on 5mm Hornet or 40 Krag (not 30-40) cartridges) and came across a couple more Lovell drawings. The book is "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges" by Ken Howell. Most excellent book! Here are the drawings it had for the Lovell cartridges:
311899

311900

311901

[TheCounty]

Thanks for posting these as I did have these as a reference but on checking my files they had disappeared. This has been rectified in my files.
Note the larger than base diameter next to rim as compared to references on the 25-20 Single Shot of .315" dia.
It's enough to make a fellow have a toddy or two....make mine "Alberta Premium" thank you. (chuckle)
Cheers

[uscra112]

if anybody's still watching this thread......
i'm given to understand that back issues of the American Rifleman are now online. Somewhere.

If so, search out the March 1941 and April 1942 issues, and find Fred Ness' Dope Bag columns.

Wherein you will find info on what the 2R Lovell fans were doing back in the day.

Those loads will curl your hair! 17 grains of 4227 with a 45 grain bullet - QL says that's 60,000 psi.!

No bloody wonder they complained about short brass life.

[brian1]

I saved the link to the old Rifleman issues. Here it is:

https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=amerrifle
Lots of fascinating stuff in there.

[uscra112]

Lots of work to scan all that, too.

They don't have 1942. And it looks like you need an O/S newer than XP-Pro, too. It won't open for me.

I'll try photographing the 1942 column. The print is pretty tiny, but if i can get it legible, i'll post it here.

[TheCounty]

The April 1942 is one I am missing. Appreciate your efforts. It is amazing more fellows did not have issues, as likely that 17 grains of 4227 was also compressed a bit.
Also wonder what that would actually Chrony at ??? (No, not going to try it either...haha)
Cheers

[uscra112]

Here's a photo of the April 1942 Dope Bag page Doesn't reproduce legibly here, so remind mr of your email address and I'll send you the raw .jpeg file.

312729

[uscra112]

I just ran across a Handloader article on the Lovell by Ken Waters. Anybody need that?

[brian1]

I finally got around to finishing up that batch of one hundred 25-20SS/22 2R Lovell cases I formed from .223/5.56mm in the video mentioned back on Page 3. This note picks up where the video left off. I use a cheap little HF chop saw that I got for making 300 BLK cases from .223, back when the 300 BLK first came out and we had to make our own cases.
https://www.harborfreight.com/2-in-mini-benchtop-cut-off-saw-62136.html

I have a little aluminum jig I made that clamps in the machine and has a notch to catch the rim, so each case gets cut to the same length. Feed the saw blade SLOWLY into the brass while holding the brass FIRMLY, and it works great.
315400

I cut the formed cases to 1.638 with it. Then I chamfered the neck inside and out and ran them through a FL sizing die. I did 50 as 25-20SS and 50 as 22 2R Lovell. Both sized up easily. After sizing, the length will increase to about 1.660 +-. They will be final length trimmed as the last step.

Here are a couple cases, one after chopping to 1.638" and one after FL sizing to 2R Lovell.
315397

The forming process also shrunk the primer flash hole a bit, so using the flash hole cleaner/uniformer tool was a bit more difficult than for normal cases. Because of the extra "bite" of the tool, I had to use a K&M neck turning holder to get more grip on the case than is usually necessary for flash hole work.
https://kmshooting.com/product/power-adapter-without-shell-holder/
It uses Lee Auto Prime shell holders, and will grip any case very firmly. I use it with the blue Power Adapter Handle also shown on that page.

I plan to anneal the cases next, using the tool I made from this video. It is by far the best annealing tool for the money. And you can use the base tool for what it was made for - heating up stuck nuts and the like for removal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLRgDZeYQ-M

Last step will be to run them all through the tumbler.

[Reg]

Following. Nice cut off jig.

[uscra112]

You tipped me over into, (finally), buying one of those little cutoff saws. Should have done it years ago. Not doing any more Lovell, but the Hornet-to-.25 Stevens project is calling.

[ndnchf]

I too have the HF mini chop saw. I make little fixtures of various sizes to fit the case mouth. One thing I found to make cutting easier is to cut about 2/3s of the way through the case, then rotate it 180 degrees and complete the cut. Here is a short video I made.

https://youtu.be/7unEiiPN860

[JKH]

Anyone converting .223 brass to 2r Lovell willing to sell some? I purchased a Krag yesterday that the shop thought was .222 rimmed after doing a chamber cast, got it home and a .222 case wine even begin to fit, scoped it out, measured what I could and came to the conclusion it was 2R Lovell, I called the shop today to see if they still had the chamber cast which they did, had him send me measurements and confirmed, they thought. 222 Rimmed because they look almost identical and are about the same length, and they had no idea about the Lovell cartridges.
So I am in a quandary, they made and honest mistake and the shop is an hour and a half away so its not going back, its a very nice and very old Krag conversion and I want to keep it, but the ammo is a huge problem, so I can either find a way to get cases and dies, sell it, or have it rechambered to .222, thoughts?

[uscra112]

Sent you a P/M

Phil

[brian1]

Anyone converting .223 brass to 2r Lovell willing to sell some? I purchased a Krag yesterday that the shop thought was .222 rimmed after doing a chamber cast, got it home and a .222 case wine even begin to fit, scoped it out, measured what I could and came to the conclusion it was 2R Lovell, I called the shop today to see if they still had the chamber cast which they did, had him send me measurements and confirmed, they thought. 222 Rimmed because they look almost identical and are about the same length, and they had no idea about the Lovell cartridges.
So I am in a quandary, they made and honest mistake and the shop is an hour and a half away so its not going back, its a very nice and very old Krag conversion and I want to keep it, but the ammo is a huge problem, so I can either find a way to get cases and dies, sell it, or have it rechambered to .222, thoughts?

Your problem is ironic - I have a rifle that came to me as 22 R2 Lovell, but it turned out to be 222R, which put me on a scramble to find 222R brass.
Phil's a great guy. Let me know if you need anything else, and let us know what you decided to do.

[JKH]

Hey Brian,

There is a member here that listed 10 boxes of Super brand .222 rimmed brass for sale at a great price, search for abunaitoo.

If this Krag had been .222 rimmed I would have been set for life, plus I could have shot .222 rem with ease as access to the chamber is so open in the Krag, I could have made a manual extractor quite easilly, such is life!
Hope you can get that brass, let me know if you do.

Phil, responded to your PM via email.

Thanks

Jeff

[JKH]

I also emailed MCA Sports to see if they can make a chamber adapter for .22 Hornet.

[uscra112]

Hey Brian

Phil, responded to your PM via email.

Jeff

Hasn't shown up. Tried emailing you using the site's utility.

CH lists dies - $116 for the set if I read their website right. Don't be put off, the littlest Lovell was well known to be a tackdriver when fed correctly.

https://chtoolanddie.com/calibers/22LovR2

You can get by with only a FL die. A seater is easy to make if you have a lathe.

[JKH]

They have some very attractive offerings, the two die set isn't much more than just a sizing die, will see how this thing shoots, then decide.

Thanks for the info!

[ndnchf]

Digging through my brass stash I have 43 pieces of Lovell made from WRA 25-20SS brass. 39 of them have a sharp shoulder, 4 have a gentle shoulder. I'm not sure which variations they are. If somebody could use them, I'd take $100 plus shipping. PM an email address and I'll send a photo.
Steve

[JKH]

Hey guys.

Still thinking on my single shot Krag 2 R Lovell. Brass is just off the charts expensive and hard to come by, sonI am considering several options.

1. Sell the rifle and buy something easier to feed.

2. Rechamber it in .222 Remington. Rim diameter is the same so bolt face will work as well as extractor, any issues with the Krag handling .222 pressures? I could probably do it with a pull through reamer, possible or not?

3. Find someone willing to make a chamber sleeve for .22 Hornet. I like this idea as it wouldn't permanently alter the rifle, and to try and preserve what few cases I have for the Lovell I am basically loading to Hornet velocities and lower pressure as is, I also have tons of Hornet brass, bullets, and dies, anyone here think they could make an insert from mild steel? It probably wouldn't need even blue lok tite to stay in place after a couple shots, and I could either make a hand extraction tool, or extend the Krag extractor more (it has already been built up with weld and reshaped for the Lovell).

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff

[uscra112]

I'd rule out the chamber insert immediately.

.222R would be practical. The Krag extractor isn't very amenable to rimless cases.

Lovell cases aren't necessarily all that expensive. I just bought 65 cases for about $1.00 each, including taxes, fees. and shipping from a Gunbroker auction. Old converted .25-20, mixed headstamps.

[brian1]

Krag should handle 222R no problem
I have no first- or second- hand experience with using a chamber sleeve, but I suppose it might work. Any gunsmith or machinist should be able to make one. I've never heard of a commercially-available one, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try one. Perhaps others have experience in this area.
You can make your own brass from .223/5.56mm as described earlier in this thread.

[gnoahhh]

I'll side with Phil on this one (and every one!). I think the idea of a chamber insert for such a high pressure round is iffy.

Making brass out of .223 cases is a bit of an ordeal initially, but once you get it down it isn't so bad.

[uscra112]

@JKH - did we ever connect via email? I would have offered you some brass.

[JKH]

Hey Phil,

We did connect, I picked up 22 cases from you and that's what I am currently working with.

Its a sweet old rifle, I just can't seem to get into investing so much to shoot it infrequently, I had a .25 Krag full length years ago built with a huge 30" Winchester High Wall barrel, that was far more practical to feed!

I'll sit on it a while longer, if I can get a deal on brass like you recently did it may change my outlook altogether.

[JKH]

Hey all, back again.

I was at an antique mall we frequent today and scored 19 WRA 25-20 SS cases for the princely sum of $4.00, I would like to convert these to 2R Lovell for my Krag but do not have dies (still mulling whether I'm keeping the rifle or not). These cases appear to have been resized many years ago in a 25-20 die so I just need to neck them down, what I have available are .222, and .22PPC dies (including a Lee collet die set for the PPC), of course I will anneal the cases before I wet tumble them, after that do you think starting with .222 seating dies sans stem, then going to the .222 sizing die will work? I measured the cases compared to the 2R I have shot in my Krag and they will chamber outside of not being necked to .22 caliber. I have reformed a lot of other cases but certainly don't want to ruin scarce brass if I can avoid it!

Thanks

Jeff

[uscra112]

I bought a batch of 2R cases a few months ago with the idea in mind to convert them back to .25-20, since the demand for those is greater than for the Lovell. If you can stand the price of a flatrate box I'll swap ya 20 for your 17.

I don't think the 2R is long enough to size down with a .222 die. .22 PPC ought to get you close.

[JKH]

Hey Phil,

That would work much better and give us each what we need without risking cases, can you full length size them?
I actually have 19. For the small number of cases we can just use a smallish padded envelope if that's okay, do you still have my email and mailing address?

The other 2R cases I got from you I was able to neck size with the .222 die, ample adjustment to size to the neck/shoulder junction. I need to work out sizing with the Lee collet die next, they definitely cause a lot less stress on cases.

[uscra112]

Remind me of address and email

Yes I can run 'em thru a FL sizer.

[JKH]

Email sent earlier.