Winchester LP primer problem

[oldhenry]

My preferred pistol primer is Federal, but they're about impossible to find locally or on line now. The Winchester & CCI primers are OK, but the CCIs are slightly harder & I don't like to use them in my DA revolvers (I shoot my DA revolvers in DA). I've never had any particular problem with the Winchester primers........I loaded up on them during the Clinton years. That supply is now exhausted & the recent supply: lot#GKL594G is difficult to seat.......sometimes almost impossible to seat.

Are any other members of the forum having problems with WLPs? The problem persists with all different brands of brass.

Henry

[white eagle]

never had a problem with win primers
use them all the time

[Char-Gar]

The Winchester large pistol primer has been my go to primer for 40 years with zero problems. I would look to your cases as the source of the problem.

[tazman]

I only have trouble seating primers in S&B cases and military cases. Everything else is no problem.
I use on press priming and Winchester primers. This is for 45 ACP.

[sixshot]

I use lots of WLP primers in 45 ACP and everything else that requires a LP primer, no problem. I also have several thousand Federal LP primers but that's another story.

Dick

[OS OK]

What method are you using to seat them?
On press.?.what type and brand?
(A member complained once that his were tough to get them to seat to depth each time and do it the same every time...his shell plate was a bit loose.)

Are they tough/impossible to seat in multiple different case brands?

Tough to get them to press in.?. as in it takes excessive force?
Or do you mean tough to get them to seat at the same depth each time?

[primersp]

i have a lot of S&B 45 acp cases impossible to seat any primers 's brands

[CASTER OF LEAD]

I am currently using a stash of WLR, WSR,AND WSP . Only brass I have issues with is S&B. Lake City, some Federal cases are hard to seat them ,but as mentioned in an earlier post I looked to the brass. I hand ream the LC,&FC that present the issues and problem is gone. I Hand prime almost exclusively. If it don't feel right I never force the issue. Simply find out why it is so hard to prime ,and either fix the issue or toss the brass. YMMV - CASTER

[NSB]

I've always found that when I had a "primer" problem it was the brass. I've used countless thousands of WLP and every other brand and never found anything I couldn't use. Some were just a tiny bit tighter than others but still seated well with just a bit more pressure. Bad brass.....whole different story. You simply can't get two pounds of sugar in a one pound bag.

[OS OK]

I think I take too much for granted when these questions arise...

Proper brass preparation doesn't just include throwing the dirty brass in the tumbler, it also includes proper preparation and inspection of the cases and the primer pockets too. Since one of my presses is a progressive I have to deprime and then clean the cases before the brass hits the press...time does not dictate how I load ammunition, quality of the reload does. But, I am retired and am not forced to take shortcuts.

In my mind, I think of this as being part of the basic 'A B C's' of handloading but given how many who use the progressives and are always pressed for time...they run batches of brass and never see the primer pockets much less clean or trim/ream them. How would they know some of their inventory needs a little special, out of the ordinary attention to detail...?

I am not saying that this is the situation of the OP but...this 'always in a hurry world' we are caught up in is detracting from our craft.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I use a RCBS case deburring tool on every primer pocket. Just a little helps reduce those few that catch when starting the primer. All get the primer pocket reamed/cleaned with the Hornady primer pocket tool. Takes care of those military crimped primer pockets and those few that really are tight or not quite deep enough. When I can't remember if I have already prepped the primer pocket I check it with a primer pocket swage gauge from UniqueTek. Quick and easy to use.
http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1521

[oldhenry]

Thanks for all responses.
The caliber that I'm currently loading is .45 Colt. The 1st batch involved Winchester & WW cases that have many firings, so I attributed the problem to the brass. I then loaded about 200 un-plated Star Line cases with intermittent issues. I'm now into Star Line plated cases & intermittent problems surfaces again. These cases have no more than 2-3 firings with low pressure loads.
The priming seems to require too much effort & I can't feel it bottom. I used my Sinclair PP uniformer sparingly (it's for LR) & no problem with it entering the pocket.
I've double checked the container & it's clearly marked to be pistol primers (I suspected rifle primers).
I'm priming on the Dillon 550. I have a RCBS bench mounted priming tool......I'll see if it has the same problem.
Once again, thanks for the input.
Henry

P.S. All of these cases were de-primed, wet tumbled, then CC tumbled & each flash hole cleared individually before loading. Those that had any residue in pocket were cleaned with my Herters primer pocket cleaner (a great tool).

[str8wal]

WLP is all I use in pistol cases that take a large primer and never had a problem seating one.

[OS OK]

Thanks for all responses.
The caliber that I'm currently loading is .45 Colt. The 1st batch involved Winchester & WW cases that have many firings, so I attributed the problem to the brass. I then loaded about 200 un-plated Star Line cases with intermittent issues. I'm now into Star Line plated cases & intermittent problems surfaces again. These cases have no more than 2-3 firings with low pressure loads.
The priming seems to require too much effort & I can't feel it bottom. I used my Sinclair PP uniformer sparingly (it's for LR) & no problem with it entering the pocket.
I've double checked the container & it's clearly marked to be pistol primers (I suspected rifle primers).
I'm priming on the Dillon 550. I have a RCBS bench mounted priming tool......I'll see if it has the same problem.
Once again, thanks for the input.
Henry

P.S. All of these cases were de-primed, wet tumbled, then CC tumbled & each flash hole cleared individually before loading. Those that had any residue in pocket were cleaned with my Herters primer pocket cleaner (a great tool).

It's starting to look like something is amiss on the Dillon...
The only brass problem I've had recently is oversize diameter rims on Win. .45 Colt.

[Gtrubicon]

I have problems with Winchester 45 colt and 454 casual brass, no matter what brand primers. I use an rcbs hand held priming tool, have also used a lee hand held. I think they are very tight primer pockets for those two calibers. I've tried many different brand primers but still come to the same conclusion. I have never had any issues with starline or rp brass for 45 colt.

[9.3X62AL]

Winchester brass has had a reputation for over-tight primer pockets in a few calibers for me over the years. 9mm Luger has been the worst for me--no matter what make of primer, the things resist seating. I got the 9mm brass for free, and after all manner of gymnastics to remedy the matter I gave up--concluded that the W-W brass was priced correctly (worthless)--and bought R-P brass for the caliber. It processes wonderfully.

W-W and CCI primers are far easier to find locally than are other makes. They make up 80% of my primer usage, and Federal #215s and Remington #6-1/2 take up the slack for a couple given applications. Primer seating issues seldom crop up for me, and I don't suffer them gladly. After 150+ years of cartridge tech, this is a thing that the makers need to get right. Starline brass has been utterly trouble-free in this venue (and others). SL is slowly taking over my cartridge inventory--it is much better stuff.

[Blackwater]

Henry, FWIW, here's a "me too" for those who don't have problems with seating WW primers, and I've used an awful lot of them. They've long been the most common primers available locally, plus some CCI's. Federals have only had sporadic availability here. And I've always found that any problem seating primers was "user error," and indeed, there's been some of that. Most military brass has a crimp that MUST be removed before being able to seat primers without undue problems. This only takes a one-time treatment with one of the primer pocket REAMERS that are commonly available and not very expensive at all. These cut the primer pocket to uniform dimensions, but again, cutting ANYTHING with ANY sort of cutter inevitably must rely on the user's skill, sense of "feel," and attention to detail. Nothing with any cutting tools is "fool proof."

As someone noted above, we live in a world today of instant gratification and having most things done FOR us rather than BY us. This makes all of us who reload kind'a "special," at least in a way. But everyone who reloads has a learning curve to go through, and those who are in too big a hurry often find it's a frustrating experience. But it really doesn't need to be. Just approach it from the perspective that OS OK does - as a craft and a pleasurable and very interesting and crafty hobby/past time, and you'll begin to really enjoy it a LOT more. A WHOLE lot more!

To seat well, the primers MUST be aligned pretty well square with the primer pockets. This way, they're aligned together, and much less force is needed to seat them, and loading also goes significantly faster. Reloading is a repetitive pursuit, and once you've learned the process, by simply paying better attention to the details, it's likely that your primer seating will go MUCH faster and more pleasurably. It worked that way for me. It's been 55 years since I reloaded my first cartridge, and I'm STILL learning. And I've found no better place to learn stuff than this board.

Reloading is a process that we have to learn, because it will NOT ... not ever .... work the way we WANT it to just because we want it to. We have to learn to pay attention, focus and do things repetitively the way they tend to work best. That brings satisfaction and much pleasure. When you pay attention and focus, and don't discount the "little things," it's really amazing how much faster and better things go at the reloading bench. I know. That's how I learned, and I suspect most all of have learned. So relax and ENJOY your time at the bench, and it'll turn into something enjoyable instead of just another chore that HAS to be done to shoot more. Whatever problem you run into will have a logical and almost always pretty simple solution. it's just a matter of understanding what we're doing, as we do it, and putting our minds to the task at hand, and not on other stuff that happened that day. Letting one's mind drift is a good way to potentially blow up a gun or do something you won't like very much! Relax and enjoy, and the whole pursuit changes its whole nature for you.

[CASTER OF LEAD]

Henry, FWIW, here's a "me too" for those who don't have problems with seating WW primers, and I've used an awful lot of them. They've long been the most common primers available locally, plus some CCI's. Federals have only had sporadic availability here. And I've always found that any problem seating primers was "user error," and indeed, there's been some of that. Most military brass has a crimp that MUST be removed before being able to seat primers without undue problems. This only takes a one-time treatment with one of the primer pocket REAMERS that are commonly available and not very expensive at all. These cut the primer pocket to uniform dimensions, but again, cutting ANYTHING with ANY sort of cutter inevitably must rely on the user's skill, sense of "feel," and attention to detail. Nothing with any cutting tools is "fool proof."

As someone noted above, we live in a world today of instant gratification and having most things done FOR us rather than BY us. This makes all of us who reload kind'a "special," at least in a way. But everyone who reloads has a learning curve to go through, and those who are in too big a hurry often find it's a frustrating experience. But it really doesn't need to be. Just approach it from the perspective that OS OK does - as a craft and a pleasurable and very interesting and crafty hobby/past time, and you'll begin to really enjoy it a LOT more. A WHOLE lot more!

To seat well, the primers MUST be aligned pretty well square with the primer pockets. This way, they're aligned together, and much less force is needed to seat them, and loading also goes significantly faster. Reloading is a repetitive pursuit, and once you've learned the process, by simply paying better attention to the details, it's likely that your primer seating will go MUCH faster and more pleasurably. It worked that way for me. It's been 55 years since I reloaded my first cartridge, and I'm STILL learning. And I've found no better place to learn stuff than this board.

Reloading is a process that we have to learn, because it will NOT ... not ever .... work the way we WANT it to just because we want it to. We have to learn to pay attention, focus and do things repetitively the way they tend to work best. That brings satisfaction and much pleasure. When you pay attention and focus, and don't discount the "little things," it's really amazing how much faster and better things go at the reloading bench. I know. That's how I learned, and I suspect most all of have learned. So relax and ENJOY your time at the bench, and it'll turn into something enjoyable instead of just another chore that HAS to be done to shoot more. Whatever problem you run into will have a logical and almost always pretty simple solution. it's just a matter of understanding what we're doing, as we do it, and putting our minds to the task at hand, and not on other stuff that happened that day. Letting one's mind drift is a good way to potentially blow up a gun or do something you won't like very much! Relax and enjoy, and the whole pursuit changes its whole nature for you.

Very well stayed Blackwater. Reloading for me is very therapeutic indeed. Attention to details is critical and if ignored can have catastrophic consequences. I have been reloading for 30+ years and am really just starting see just how much I Still Have to learn. - CASTER

[oldhenry]

The original question was to find out if anyone was having problems seating Winchester LP primers & I should have added: "lately". I started reloading in 1960 & I enjoy reloading. I also cast my 1st. bullet in '60. All of that initial loading was on a SS press until RCBS introduced the Green Machine & I gave up on making it work.......and a few others gave up also (including RCBS). The Dillon 450 was the 1st. progressive machine that I used that actually worked........a friend bought it & asked me to teach him how to operate it. I bought the 550 in the '80s & have had very few problems.

On my SS (Redding Ultra mag) I've loaded tight neck 1000 yd. loads to pistol cartridges & have never had any problems with Winchester primers (or any other primers)........other than primer pockets getting loose (particularly on Winchester brass) on .223s when I was shooting XTC (no problem with LC). Recently I bought a sleeve of Winchester LP & SP primers & have no problems with the SPs. Recently I loaded about 500 .45ACPs & had a few issues seating primers, but the brass had many firings & I didn't blame the primers. I already told the background on the recent problems with the .45 Colt loading. The reason I posed the question is simply that I've never experienced the problem before especially with SL brass.

Following my original posting I did a lube job on the 550 & cleaned the priming mechanism with a tooth brush lubing the priming assy. with graphite only. I also mounted my RCBS bench type priming tool alongside the 550. For the 1st 25 or so there were absolutely no primer seating problems & I thought the cleaning/lube job solved the problem. I then encountered 4 in the next 75 or so that the Dillon was unable to seat. Two of these I was able to remove from the 550 & seat on the RCBS: but........the RCBS required unusual pressure to seat. The other 2 were so high that I could not remove them from the 550 & were de-primed (not re-used). Of these 2, one was re-primed on the 550 with heavy pressure & the other was de-primed again & primed on the RCBS with normal pressure (a different primer).

Then I had one (other than the 4 above) that the 550 could not seat, but I was able to remove the case from the 550 & the RCBS couldn't seat it either (important part).The case was de-primed on the 550 and the next primer out of the tube primed on the 550 with normal pressure & I could feel the primer seat perfectly. This tells my 78 yr. old brain that something was not right with that primer & the other few that even the RCBS tool required extra pressure to seat.

Probably of no consequence, but offered as information: The spring on the SP priming mechanism is not nearly as strong as the LP & I plan to reduce that spring pressure to see if that change will give me a better feel for the seating.

Respectfully submitted,
Henry

[lightman]

I just seated over 2K worth, in various headstamp 44 mag cases. No real problems, just a few that were tighter or looser than what I call normal. I expect it was the mismatched cases. This 5K lot came up in my normal rotation, having bought them before the 2007-2008 shortages. I'm not a Winchester fan, preferring CCI but I have no complaints yet. Now, if they all fire?

[OS OK]

Henry...have you spread those primers out on the bench to have a look at them with a magnifier and a caliper? Maybe you are the only one this decade who got a bad batch?

Your story makes my 67 year old brain curious? Us younguns have curious brains anyway...Primer problems scare the spit out of me, hope you come up with an answer soon and get past this crud.

[tazman]

I have had problems with bad batches of primers before but just didn't happen to be Winchester. Absolutely check the primers with a caliper if you can. That may give a final answer to your problem.

[oldhenry]

OS OK & tazman,
Thanks for your concern.........a good suggestion. I've just about loaded all of my .45 Colt empties & I'm interested in how the WLPs behave in my .44 specials (they're next). They're all SL & once fired (low pressure load).
Henry

[Walt]

Like others here I have used mostly Winchester primers for all manner of reloading. They have been my go to for 30 years. I had 3 cases which gave me fits for several years. My daughter and I bought the 15,000 primers and split them 2 cases for me and 1 for her. I ended up trading her CCI 300s as she was having a really bad time on her SDB loading 45 Auto with this run of WLPs. I recently received some WLPs from a friend who's father passed away unexpectedly. These are of a newer run and I have had no problems with these at all. I suspect there has been a lot of out of spec primers that made it to market that shouldn't have.

[Virginia John]

I have noticed that the last batch of WSP was giving me a problem with a specific caliber which I believe was the brass but overall they are my go to primer.

[oldhenry]

Walt,
Your post gives me some reassurance that I'm not loosing my mind. Thanks for sharing.

The sleeve that's giving me problems is a recent purchase now that components are becoming more available. Prior to this.......no problems.

Henry

[Walt]

Walt,
Your post gives me some reassurance that I'm not loosing my mind. Thanks for sharing.

The sleeve that's giving me problems is a recent purchase now that components are becoming more available. Prior to this.......no problems.

Henry

I'm glad to hear your experience also. Way to many people have tried to tell me I'm using poor brass, tools, techniques, etc. etc.....BS. Not everyone has ran into the out of spec WLP primers. But they were and still my be out there.

[oldhenry]

I'm glad to hear your experience also. Way to many people have tried to tell me I'm using poor brass, tools, techniques, etc. etc.....BS. Not everyone has ran into the out of spec WLP primers. But they were and still my be out there.

Walt,
Until your brave post I was afraid that I might get voted off the island.

Henry

__________________________________________________ ___________________
A real sport involves either gasoline or gunpowder...........anything else is just a game

[Messy bear]

I too have had problems with out of spec. Like some CCI primers that ruptured at corner when fired. Same gun and load with another lot and no problem. Didn't have many of them and they were bought at a gun show many years ago so I didn't bother with them. Working on getting some replaced at the moment that won't decap without tearing face off. Not sure how it will work out. Wish I could post pix.

[Tatume]

Hi Henry,

I too have had problems seating primers on a Dillon; in my case it was an XL 650.


Two of these I was able to remove from the 550 & seat on the RCBS: but........the RCBS required unusual pressure to seat.

This is most likely because the first attempt at seating deformed the primer. They become expanded under pressure.

I was loading 44 Rem Mag and experienced problems with high primers. My cases are Starline that have been loaded many times. I talked to Dillon several times, and was not able to resolve the problem. Finally, I started a fresh batch of new, Starline cases. To my surprise, the problem went away. I don't know what caused it. The cases are fine when hand primed, and I'm still using them that way.

Since then I've converted the XL 650 to 45 ACP. After about 1500 rounds with mixed headstamp brass I've had not a single primer issue. Go figure.

If you should decide to try some brand new cases, please let us know the result.

Take care, Tom

[mold maker]

As with anything mass produced there are variances in raw materials and finished products. Eliminating as many variables as possible produces reloads of a much higher quality. Since it's a one time process I try to make all my brass as consistent as possible, from separating by HS to the number of times loaded. Much of my current brass is military so swaging the primer pockets is a given. Even after swaging I touch the pocket to a reamer to give easy entry of the primers.
From this point on, any difference in required seating pressure is dependent on the primers. I have noticed rare differences in Winchester primers but much less a problem with properly prepared pockets. At least this makes for more consistent priming and in turn a better (quality and ease of production) ammo.
I do all priming off press with both hand and bench mounted tools, but due to arthritic hand problems, the RCBS bench primer does the lions share.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

New lot WLP (bought in 2016).

I've noticed the shape of the 'cup' on these new primers are NOT as uniform as I think they should be. When I open a box and look across the 100 primers, the variation in cup shape is disturbing, at least it disturbs my OCDness?

In the last week, I've been loading a large batch of 45acp...using brass with different groupings of HS (I recently bought four flat rate boxes of 45acp range brass, I always sort the HS, because when loading same HS in batches, I can feel the difference and that makes it easily to reject a problem case that gets missed during visual inspection). Anyway, when seating these new primers in this once fired brass, I did notice more variation in pressure needed to seat, within same HS groups, that I recall my older Winchester primers had ...and the brass with HS "S+B" was the worst, But I did load 100 of them, just cuz I hear so much bad about them, and have experienced problems in 9mm, so I wanted to see how they do in 45acp.
that's my 2¢

[oldhenry]

Hi Henry,

I too have had problems seating primers on a Dillon; in my case it was an XL 650.



This is most likely because the first attempt at seating deformed the primer. They become expanded under pressure.

I was loading 44 Rem Mag and experienced problems with high primers. My cases are Starline that have been loaded many times. I talked to Dillon several times, and was not able to resolve the problem. Finally, I started a fresh batch of new, Starline cases. To my surprise, the problem went away. I don't know what caused it. The cases are fine when hand primed, and I'm still using them that way.

Since then I've converted the XL 650 to 45 ACP. After about 1500 rounds with mixed headstamp brass I've had not a single primer issue. Go figure.

If you should decide to try some brand new cases, please let us know the result.

Take care, Tom

Tom,
Last night I measured 100 WLP primers from lot#GKL594G with my Fowler caliper + my Mitutoyo 1" micrometer. As you know, the caliper give a good general measurement, but the micrometer is more exact. I recorded both measurements alongside each other & have condensed the findings into a form that will fit a post to this forum (I'd also be willing to mail the detailed list to anyone interested if they'd PM their address).

I realize that there is a manufacturing tolerance of any product, but these measurements brought to light some abnormalities. I've identified the suspect ones with a MM & we'll see if those play a part in the problem........maybe they will not.

Since there have ben so many questions about my part in the problem, I plan to present my findings in detail which will require more that one posting.

I only had 33 .45 Colt empties (4000 loaded), so early this A.M. (before it got too hot) I fired 100 to get more empties..........good practice also (I have my own range 150 yds. from my front porch). I plan to load 100 of these with the WLPs measured. 50 will be SL with 1 or 2 prior firings & the remaining 50 a mixture of Win/WW, FC, R-P & Midway. This will give us a good idea of the problem. All empties were previously primed with absolutely no issues with what I call "pansy" loading.

After these are loaded. I'll change over to .44 spec. & will load 100 with WLPs (lot#GKL594G), 100 with Fed.#150s & 100 with CCI 300s and report any issues. All of my .44 spec. empties have 1 loading (mild).

I've never had any primer seating issues with my #550. I had some primer feeding issues occasionally, but they were resolved with a cleaning & lubrication with graphite. An Ebay sourced ball bearing guide + excellent installation instructions cured that problem for good. I also have a ball bearing for the shell plate that allows zero play in that shell plate has given me trouble free priming up to the WLP recent issue.

Also: I repeat that up to this lot# I've never had any primer seating issues with WLPs other than on a few odd ball brands of brass (+ 4 Winchester .45ACPs that now sit on my reloading bench that look OK, but are not primeable in spite of all my efforts).

I didn't mean to ramble.

Henry

[oldhenry]

New lot WLP (bought in 2016).

I've noticed the shape of the 'cup' on these new primers are NOT as uniform as I think they should be. When I open a box and look across the 100 primers, the variation in cup shape is disturbing, at least it disturbs my OCDness?

In the last week, I've been loading a large batch of 45acp...using brass with different groupings of HS (I recently bought four flat rate boxes of 45acp range brass, I always sort the HS, because when loading same HS in batches, I can feel the difference and that makes it easily to reject a problem case that gets missed during visual inspection). Anyway, when seating these new primers in this once fired brass, I did notice more variation in pressure needed to seat, within same HS groups, that I recall my older Winchester primers had ...and the brass with HS "S+B" was the worst, But I did load 100 of them, just cuz I hear so much bad about them, and have experienced problems in 9mm, so I wanted to see how they do in 45acp.
that's my 2¢

JonB,
You have noticed what I found last night when I measured 100 WLPs. See my reply to Tatume (today).

Regards,
Henry

[gnostic]

Your problem sounds like a light hammer strike, also known as 'too good a trigger pull.' It's happened to me many times with WW primers.

[oldhenry]

Your problem sounds like a light hammer strike, also known as 'too good a trigger pull.' It's happened to me many times with WW primers.

There is no problem with ignition.
The problem is seating some of the WLPs. If I can't get them to seat. they are de-primed & usually the next primer in line will seat...........some seat easier & some require more than normal pressure.
Once I get one installed. they fire.

Henry

[Drm50]

I started out using Win or Rem primers, then in 70s went to CCI, reason was price. Never had any
problems with Win. in rifle or pistol. Did have problems with CCI with SPM primers in 357 and
misfires in SRP & LRP both. Went back to Win and stayed their. Rem I bought when they were out
of Win, can't complain about them. The only Federal I use are shotgun primers.

[Texas by God]

I 've had the tight pocket S&B brass problem before.
Beyond that, I have used:
Alcan,RWS, S&B, Fiocchi, Wolf, Tula, CCI, Federal, Winchester/Western, and Rem/Peters over the years and I can't remember a problem I could blame on the primer. YMMV.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Walt]

Walt,
Your post gives me some reassurance that I'm not loosing my mind. Thanks for sharing.

The sleeve that's giving me problems is a recent purchase now that components are becoming more available. Prior to this.......no problems.

Henry

I hear ya Henry.

A surprising number of folks think they have used every single WLP primer ever made.

Walt

[tazman]

Tom,
Last night I measured 100 WLP primers from lot#GKL594G with my Fowler caliper + my Mitutoyo 1" micrometer. As you know, the caliper give a good general measurement, but the micrometer is more exact. I recorded both measurements alongside each other & have condensed the findings into a form that will fit a post to this forum (I'd also be willing to mail the detailed list to anyone interested if they'd PM their address).

I realize that there is a manufacturing tolerance of any product, but these measurements brought to light some abnormalities. I've identified the suspect ones with a MM & we'll see if those play a part in the problem........maybe they will not.

Since there have ben so many questions about my part in the problem, I plan to present my findings in detail which will require more that one posting.

I only had 33 .45 Colt empties (4000 loaded), so early this A.M. (before it got too hot) I fired 100 to get more empties..........good practice also (I have my own range 150 yds. from my front porch). I plan to load 100 of these with the WLPs measured. 50 will be SL with 1 or 2 prior firings & the remaining 50 a mixture of Win/WW, FC, R-P & Midway. This will give us a good idea of the problem. All empties were previously primed with absolutely no issues with what I call "pansy" loading.

After these are loaded. I'll change over to .44 spec. & will load 100 with WLPs (lot#GKL594G), 100 with Fed.#150s & 100 with CCI 300s and report any issues. All of my .44 spec. empties have 1 loading (mild).

I've never had any primer seating issues with my #550. I had some primer feeding issues occasionally, but they were resolved with a cleaning & lubrication with graphite. An Ebay sourced ball bearing guide + excellent installation instructions cured that problem for good. I also have a ball bearing for the shell plate that allows zero play in that shell plate has given me trouble free priming up to the WLP recent issue.

Also: I repeat that up to this lot# I've never had any primer seating issues with WLPs other than on a few odd ball brands of brass (+ 4 Winchester .45ACPs that now sit on my reloading bench that look OK, but are not primeable in spite of all my efforts).

I didn't mean to ramble.

Henry

I would very much like to see that data. I am currently using a new batch of WLP in my 45ACP brass and things seem tighter than usual. I failed to do any measuring previously because everything was going great. I could use your numbers to compare.
If you are going to post the results here, I can wait for that.

[oldhenry]

I decided to test 100 with SL cases & 100 with mixed HS (had to do some more shooting).....mixed was about all I had. The mixed HS were 50 Midway, 20 or so Win/WW, R-P, and a few FC, SL & even a couple of CBC.

CASE PREP: resize on SS press, PP cleaned with Herter tool, liquid tumble in 6 to 1 water/lemon juice+ dawn, dried & 30 min. tumble in CC media. Flash holes inspected & cleared if needed (I know the resize operation on the Dillon would clear the flash hole, but I'm OCD).

PRIMER MEASUREMENT: With caliper for SL loads only

.210.........53
.2095.......25
.20975.....01
.2096.......01
.2092.......01
.209.........18
.2091.......01

PRIMER MEASUREMENTS: With Micrometer for SL loads only.

.209.5.......01
.210..........06
.2101........03
.2102........25
.21025......04
.2103........19
.2104........07
.2105........10
.21015......02
.2106........09
.2107........02
.2108........01
.2109........01
.211..........02
Varied.......08 (out of round)

I think these are remarkably close. The "Varied" group was discovered when I measured the 58th (or 59th). When I closed the "mic" around the primer, it rotated. A closer look under magnification clearly showed it to have a slightly triangular shape.........see attached photo (maybe not clear enough) & diagram.

I marked the .211 & the "Varied" as well as some of the ones close to .211 with a MM.

THE LOADING:

The 100 SL loadings went amazingly smooth. Occasionally one would be harder to seat than most(but would seat) & I'd remove it from the Dillon & found no MM mark. Two were unable to be seated completely on the Dillon, but the seating was completed on the RCBS with no problem: one of these did have MM markings.

The 50 Midway cases were the smoothest to prime with absolutely no difficulty.

The 50 mixed HS went very well. Only 1 Win. had to be re-primed & the 2nd. priming was normal (why did the 1st. attempt fail?).

CONCLUSION: Minor variations in primers had little effect on seating in this trial.

I'll do the 300 round .44 spec. test tomorrow (time permitting). We'll find out how the next 100 WLPs perform compared to CCI 300 & Fed 150.

Henry

[Walt]

I decided to test 100 with SL cases & 100 with mixed HS (had to do some more shooting).....mixed was about all I had. The mixed HS were 50 Midway, 20 or so Win/WW, R-P, and a few FC, SL & even a couple of CBC.

CASE PREP: resize on SS press, PP cleaned with Herter tool, liquid tumble in 6 to 1 water/lemon juice+ dawn, dried & 30 min. tumble in CC media. Flash holes inspected & cleared if needed (I know the resize operation on the Dillon would clear the flash hole, but I'm OCD).

PRIMER MEASUREMENT: With caliper for SL loads only

.210.........53
.2095.......25
.20975.....01
.2096.......01
.2092.......01
.209.........18
.2091.......01

PRIMER MEASUREMENTS: With Micrometer for SL loads only.

.209.5.......01
.210..........06
.2101........03
.2102........25
.21025......04
.2103........19
.2104........07
.2105........10
.21015......02
.2106........09
.2107........02
.2108........01
.2109........01
.211..........02
Varied.......08 (out of round)

I think these are remarkably close. The "Varied" group was discovered when I measured the 58th (or 59th). When I closed the "mic" around the primer, it rotated. A closer look under magnification clearly showed it to have a slightly triangular shape.........see attached photo (maybe not clear enough) & diagram.

I marked the .211 & the "Varied" as well as some of the ones close to .211 with a MM.

THE LOADING:

The 100 SL loadings went amazingly smooth. Occasionally one would be harder to seat than most(but would seat) & I'd remove it from the Dillon & found no MM mark. Two were unable to be seated completely on the Dillon, but the seating was completed on the RCBS with no problem: one of these did have MM markings.

The 50 Midway cases were the smoothest to prime with absolutely no difficulty.

The 50 mixed HS went very well. Only 1 Win. had to be re-primed & the 2nd. priming was normal (why did the 1st. attempt fail?).

CONCLUSION: Minor variations in primers had little effect on seating in this trial.

I'll do the 300 round .44 spec. test tomorrow (time permitting). We'll find out how the next 100 WLPs perform compared to CCI 300 & Fed 150.

Henry

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

[tazman]

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

[oldhenry]

This is interesting Henry. None of your measurements seem to show over maximum SAAMI spec numbers. Do these primers have a mottled or darker color than other unfinished primers you've used?

Walt,
The entire sleeve (so far) does not have any shine at all & have a dark bronze or oxidized appearance........I guess "mottled" would be a good description. I think you're on to something.

With this sleeve, I thought that this was the new look for WLPs.

Here are some images & they look brighter than they actually are. Note on the center image (brass not nickel plated) there are a few that are brighter between the dull ones.........this more accurately depicts the coloring I'm trying to describe.

BTW: the ease of priming the Midway brass was predictable because I de-primed everything using an old die that de-primed & belled separately from sizing (adjusted so that no belling took place). This gives excellent feedback & the Midways were noticeably easier to de-prime.

[oldhenry]

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

Tazman,
I apologize. I didn't see your question before responding to Walt.

Walt (and you) may be on to something.

My experiment didn't turn out the way I expected. I was surprised by the unsymmetrical measurements of some & thought that might be the problem (especially on the ones close to .211 on the wide side), but that theory did not float.

If I took the current experiment & nothing else, I'd say the brass was the culprit. However: I've loaded all of this brass before using the identical preparation & never ever had the problem until this sleeve of WLPs. I think within a brick of primers it is possible for there to be differences & there are more differences in this lot#.

Henry

[sharpshooter3040]

I have a charter arms bulldog that doesn't like them but other than that that about all I use


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Walt]

Tazman,
I apologize. I didn't see your question before responding to Walt.

Walt (and you) may be on to something.

My experiment didn't turn out the way I expected. I was surprised by the unsymmetrical measurements of some & thought that might be the problem (especially on the ones close to .211 on the wide side), but that theory did not float.

If I took the current experiment & nothing else, I'd say the brass was the culprit. However: I've loaded all of this brass before using the identical preparation & never ever had the problem until this sleeve of WLPs. I think within a brick of primers it is possible for there to be differences & there are more differences in this lot#.

Henry

I don't trust my memory much anymore but when Winchester did away with the finish on their primers the raw brass was bright, 1994? As I recollect it pretty much stayed that way until I split the 15,000 count WLP order with Nikki, my daughter. Those primers looked tarnished, dull, mottled......I've also used a couple cases of WSPs in the recent past which were dark. I wonder if some of seating trouble isn't caused by a sort of galling to go along with out of spec sizing? The WSPs have never been a problem for me and I imagine their smaller size just doesn't create the resistance of the large primers. The WLPs I recently picked up from the estate I spoke of earlier looked bright and they seated smoothly like we expect they should. I have 30,000 Winchester primers arriving on the 30th. I'm kind of anxious about their ease, or lack there of, of seating.

[Walt]

I am currently using a brick of Winchester primers that fit that description. I haven't had any issues with them yet, but I could use more info if there is a problem with those.

Tazman see post #47.

[Texas by God]

I had some of the mottled color ones as well. They all worked so I just shrugged it off to qc failure for appearance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[tazman]

I have gone through 300 of the brick I have that is dark in color. The sides look almost black somewhat as if they were moldy except the color doesn't wipe off.
I prime on my Lee Classic Cast press and have had no issues so far except for S&B brass(45ACP).
They have all gone bang so far.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I had a similar problem when I tried to load some RP .45-70 brass with a WW large rifle primer. They were not sitting flush or just below flush. I did not like having a primer higher than the base of the case. I tried another brand of primers. Same result. I tried large pistol primers. Same result. I eventually swaged the primer pocket for that brass with a RCBS primer pocket swage tool in my 1974 vintage RCBS Rockchucker Jr. I got it done, but have since obtained a RCBS Rockchucker Supreme, which has considerably more leverage for the task. After swaging the primer pockets, everything went fine.

[oldhenry]

Charlie,
In the past, I've had problems such as you describe & have always been able to figure it out. On my rifle reloading I used my Sinclair primer pocket uniformer (in a portable drill)to clean the pocket which also helped maintain the pocket depth. When I was shooting XTC my most common brass problem was loose primer pockets (too many firings). Most of them were LC & I really hated tossing them in the scrap pile with perfect "looking" primer pockets, uniformed flash holes & the trim/chamfering job my Gracy had produced.

As for the WLP experiment:

I only had time to load 100 of the .44 spec. SL cases with WLPs. There was no outstanding difficulty......only 1 that had a high primer & the 2nd. attempt @ seating on the Dillon did the job.

However: overall, the priming process required above average force. The force required & the drag between the primer & the primer pocket made it difficult (sometimes impossible) to feel the primer seat. This resulted in some primers being below the case head more than I prefer..........more than likely they'll be OK.

I hope to have time to load 100 each of the Fed. #150 & CCI 300 tonight (I need to spend my daylight time on my motorcycle restoration project............so much to do & so little time).

Henry

[tazman]

The next time I run the primer tray out, I will put some CCI in there and see if there is any significant difference. I have been loading Winchesters for so long, I don't know if they are harder to seat than another brand. I guess it's time to check it out.

[tazman]

I ran my primer test today and got some pretty definitive results. I just don't understand why.
I started by measuring Some of my Winchester WLP primers and some CCI large pistol primers with my micrometer.
The Winchester primers measured .210 and a bit(less than .0005).
The CCI primers measured .211 almost exactly.
All the measurements were very consistent.
I loaded some 45ACP rounds to see what the difference in seating effort was.
Even though they measure slightly larger, the CCI primers were MUCH easier to seat. They even seated easily in S&B brass which always gives me trouble with Winchester primers.
There is definitely something going on here.
As for the discoloration, here are some pictures.
202589202590
These are from the same tray in the same box. The full tray pic gives you some idea how many there are per tray.
I repeat that I have no idea why this is happening but I can confirm oldhenry's results as far as the Winchester primers being more difficult to seat.
If I were not using a press to seat these primers, I suspect I would be having lots of difficulty.

[Texas by God]

I miss the days when only Remington primers were gold color. Every other brand was silver colored.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[oldhenry]

I ran my primer test today and got some pretty definitive results. I just don't understand why.
I started by measuring Some of my Winchester WLP primers and some CCI large pistol primers with my micrometer.
The Winchester primers measured .210 and a bit(less than .0005).
The CCI primers measured .211 almost exactly.
All the measurements were very consistent.
I loaded some 45ACP rounds to see what the difference in seating effort was.
Even though they measure slightly larger, the CCI primers were MUCH easier to seat. They even seated easily in S&B brass which always gives me trouble with Winchester primers.
There is definitely something going on here.
As for the discoloration, here are some pictures.
202589202590
These are from the same tray in the same box. The full tray pic gives you some idea how many there are per tray.
I repeat that I have no idea why this is happening but I can confirm oldhenry's results as far as the Winchester primers being more difficult to seat.
If I were not using a press to seat these primers, I suspect I would be having lots of difficulty.

Tazman,
Your images show the contrast much better than mine and your process is excellent. To me it looks like the new finish process on the WLPs is not as smooth (slick) as the CCIs in your case & the Fed. #150s in my case. This possibility escaped me & thankfully you & Walt picked it up.

I primed 100 more SL .44 spec. empties. This time with Fed.#150s........cases were prepped in the same batch as the ones primed with WLPs.

One word describes the seating of the Federal #150s....................SMOOTH!. I could feel each one seat & as a result most were even with the case head (just like I wanted).

I was unable to perform the same experiment on CCI 300s simply because I do not have any. I have a few #350s & plenty of 500s, but not a single 300. Tazman's experiment took care of my lack of the 300s.

I also primed 50 R-P empties with WLPs & they were very similar to the SLs (requiring much force to seat).

Henry

[oldhenry]

I emailed the Winchester division of Olin this morning about the problem & will let everyone know of any response I get.
Henry

[Walt]

I emailed the Winchester division of Olin this morning about the problem & will let everyone know of any response I get.
Henry

Thanks Henry. I'm anxious to hear their response. They have been dealing with some bad WLR primers recently also. Walt

[tazman]

They have been dealing with some bad WLR primers recently also. Walt

I hadn't heard about those. What is the issue?

[Walt]

I hadn't heard about those. What is the issue?

Primers perforating around the edge of the primer pocket. I may be able to send you a link or two by email. I don't know how to post pictures or links here. PM me if you like.

[tazman]

That was all I needed to know. Wanted to know what to watch for.

[Walt]

That was all I needed to know. Wanted to know what to watch for.


No sweat. There are lot numbers on some of the links in case you change your mind.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

In addition to primer cup dimensions, I suspect that cup hardness comes into play.

[oldhenry]

In addition to primer cup dimensions, I suspect that cup hardness comes into play.

Good thinking!
That's what I like about this forum.........so much input & different points of view.
Henry

[oldhenry]

I left a voice mail message Friday (08/22) in the A.M. & attempted to follow up with an email through Olin's web site, but it would not go through.

On 08/23 A.M. through a different internal contact email (limited to 253 characters) I sent another message that apparently went through. The 253 characters did not allow a detailed explanation.

Later in the late PM of 08/23 through olinwinchesterinfo@olin.com I was able to get a detailed message sent & also was able to send the 08/22 message.

08/28: no response.

Today @ 11:30 AM (EST) I left another voice mail message.

At about 2:00 EST Haley from Olin called. She was very courteous & seems genuinely interested in our problem. She listened patiently throughout my entire explanation.

She's sending a shipping label & special container for the return of the 1,700 remaining primers from the 5,000 primer sleeve. Winchester will examine them to find out the problem. She also said they'd reimburse me for the primers. I explained that in all honesty the majority of the forum members were well satisfied with their primers. I also explained that even those experiencing problems now, had never had problems in the past. It seems that the recent purchases are giving the problem

She says the entire process may take a while.

She knows that I'll share the findings with the forum.

If any forum member wants to furnish lot# (or contact info) on any of their primers, I'll send that info with the primers I'm returning.

I'll document when mail label/shipping carton is received & shipped.

Henry

[JBinMN]

Although I have not yet run into any issues with the Win. primers I have been using & have yet to use in unopened boxes, I would like to thank you for your efforts to help everyone here & your keeping folks informed as things go along.
:)

[Walt]

I left a voice mail message Friday (08/22) in the A.M. & attempted to follow up with an email through Olin's web site, but it would not go through.

On 08/23 A.M. through a different internal contact email (limited to 253 characters) I sent another message that apparently went through. The 253 characters did not allow a detailed explanation.

Later in the late PM of 08/23 through olinwinchesterinfo@olin.com I was able to get a detailed message sent & also was able to send the 08/22 message.

08/28: no response.

Today @ 11:30 AM (EST) I left another voice mail message.

At about 2:00 EST Haley from Olin called. She was very courteous & seems genuinely interested in our problem. She listened patiently throughout my entire explanation.

She's sending a shipping label & special container for the return of the 1,700 remaining primers from the 5,000 primer sleeve. Winchester will examine them to find out the problem. She also said they'd reimburse me for the primers. I explained that in all honesty the majority of the forum members were well satisfied with their primers. I also explained that even those experiencing problems now, had never had problems in the past. It seems that the recent purchases are giving the problem

She says the entire process may take a while.

She knows that I'll share the findings with the forum.

If any forum member wants to furnish lot# (or contact info) on any of their primers, I'll send that info with the primers I'm returning.

I'll document when mail label/shipping carton is received & shipped.

Henry

Henry,

Thanks for all the work you've put in. Winchester has reimbursed many reloaders for the bad WLR primers and made repairs on scarred bolts which were affected by them. I believe they will get this problem squared away too.

Thanks again, Walt

[Walt]

New production update. I received my 30,000 count Winchester primer order today. All are bright in color, not that tarnished look that the troublesome WLPs had.

[oldhenry]

New production update. I received my 30,000 count Winchester primer order today. All are bright in color, not that tarnished look that the troublesome WLPs had.

Good news!
Let us know how they seat.
Henry

[Walt]

Good news!
Let us know how they seat.
Henry

I'll let you know Henry. I'm going to the NHRA Nationals though so it may be next week before I do.
Walt

[oldhenry]

I'll let you know Henry. I'm going to the NHRA Nationals though so it may be next week before I do.
Walt

Have fun @ the NHRA Nationals. I'm not into drag racing (I'm into MX & Hare Scrambles), but last year I was near Ocalla, FL & my motorcycle riding buddy and I stopped by The Don Garlit's Museum & spent the better part of a day there. It was time well spent. Us "gear heads" are basically all the same.

Henry

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
A real sport involves either gun powder or gasoline..........anything else is just a game

[johniv]

I have used several thousand Win. primers that fit the description here, and have had no issues as yet. FWIW
John

[ioon44]

Same here, I have used thousands of WSPM & WLP that are dark colored with out any problems, if I have a problem seating primer it is because the pocket needed swaged.

[trapper9260]

I use alot of WLP and no problems and also some WLR also and dark ones also beside WSP . If there is a problem it is because like just stated the pocket needed work I use a reamer. That take care of the problem.

[tazman]

I have been using WLP primers for some time in my 45ACP loads using the discolored primers. They all go bang so far. That said, they are significantly more difficult to seat than other brands. The CCI and Federal primers I have used, seat MUCH easier than the Winchester primers. If I were using a hand priming tool, I would be having difficulty getting them to seat.
Since the other brands of primers seat easily, I don't believe it is a brass problem. The difficulty only occurs with the Winchester primers.
I guess it depends on what you define as a problem.

[Walt]

I just ran 100 of my new batch of "bright and shiny" WLPs through a 550. I was loading 200 grain #68 style LSWCs using Winchester 45 Auto brass. I'm happy to say that they seated smoothly and bottomed nicely.

[tazman]

Excellent.
Good to know this issue won't continue.

[oldhenry]

I just ran 100 of my new batch of "bright and shiny" WLPs through a 550. I was loading 200 grain #68 style LSWCs using Winchester 45 Auto brass. I'm happy to say that they seated smoothly and bottomed nicely.

Walt,
Glad to hear it.
I'll be looking for some "bright & shiny" WLPs.
Henry

[Walt]

Have fun @ the NHRA Nationals. I'm not into drag racing (I'm into MX & Hare Scrambles), but last year I was near Ocalla, FL & my motorcycle riding buddy and I stopped by The Don Garlit's Museum & spent the better part of a day there. It was time well spent. Us "gear heads" are basically all the same.

Henry

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
A real sport involves either gun powder or gasoline..........anything else is just a game

I'm very lucky to have a good friend that builds Super Stock Hemi racing engines and runs a Super Stock 1964 Plymouth Savoy, a real classic! He hosts my daughters and I when he runs. It's a real treat to hang out in the Sportsman Pit Area. The icing on the cake is his BBQ, he's quite a cook too!

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a strange problem with ww large pistol this summer. I was shooting my glock 20 and 29 about daily. Loaded a pile of ammo with ww primers and had about one in 10 that didn't go off on first strike. Reset the firing pin and most went off the second time. Now both of those guns do have wolf spring kits. I shot it up and loaded some with ccis and federals. the feds as expected went off every time. I was really curious what the ccis would do because I was allways under the impression they had harder cups then ww. I shot probably a bit more then 500 of them between the two guns and never had one misfire. Just to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up some more with ww out of a different lot and again had the misfires. Havent got around to seeing how they act in my other guns yet and with back surgery this week probably wont get a chance this summer. Just thought id throw it out there though because it was some pretty odd results.

[tazman]

I had a strange problem with ww large pistol this summer. I was shooting my glock 20 and 29 about daily. Loaded a pile of ammo with ww primers and had about one in 10 that didn't go off on first strike. Reset the firing pin and most went off the second time. Now both of those guns do have wolf spring kits. I shot it up and loaded some with ccis and federals. the feds as expected went off every time. I was really curious what the ccis would do because I was allways under the impression they had harder cups then ww. I shot probably a bit more then 500 of them between the two guns and never had one misfire. Just to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up some more with ww out of a different lot and again had the misfires. Havent got around to seeing how they act in my other guns yet and with back surgery this week probably wont get a chance this summer. Just thought id throw it out there though because it was some pretty odd results.

Sounds like a case of extra hard cups on the primers. I think that is what is happening with mine. I still have factory springs in my guns and have had no misfires on that account.
The Winchester WLP primers I have are much harder to seat than the CCI primers I have.
Companies can produce products at times that are a tiny bit out of spec and have it get out the door on them. I have had thin primers from other companies that blew out at the edge under standard loads before. This just went the other direction.

[oldhenry]

I had a strange problem with ww large pistol this summer. I was shooting my glock 20 and 29 about daily. Loaded a pile of ammo with ww primers and had about one in 10 that didn't go off on first strike. Reset the firing pin and most went off the second time. Now both of those guns do have wolf spring kits. I shot it up and loaded some with ccis and federals. the feds as expected went off every time. I was really curious what the ccis would do because I was allways under the impression they had harder cups then ww. I shot probably a bit more then 500 of them between the two guns and never had one misfire. Just to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up some more with ww out of a different lot and again had the misfires. Havent got around to seeing how they act in my other guns yet and with back surgery this week probably wont get a chance this summer. Just thought id throw it out there though because it was some pretty odd results.

Interesting experience. So far my experience has been identical to Tazman's........they all go bang, but are more difficult to seat. However, all of my recent firings with the WLPs has been in RSAs & a 1911 with standard main springs.

When you loaded them did you notice the primers being more difficult to seat?

Thanks for this additional input.

Henry

[Lloyd Smale]

no I didn't feel any undue effort to seat them. Ive used them myself in 1911s and single action revolvers both with action jobs. I have had problems with smith DA guns using them and ccis and about use feds exclusively in those. Ive even used ccis in those same glocks with no problems even after the spring kits were installed. Ive also used ww small pistol primers in my 9mm and 40 glocks with no problems and they too have action jobs. Maybe like was said I just got a batch that should have been culled due to out of spec primer cups. Right now there probably selling primers as fast as they make them and figure even if there is a problem with them someone will happily live with it. Not a real big deal as I do have guns to shoot them up in but if I need primers for my 10mm glocks again id have to be pretty desperate to buy ww primers again.

[pcarpenter]

I've had problems with Win primers as you have described. I read some of the first posts in the thread and you've already been told all the usual warnings about cases with crimps left in them, etc. Plenty of commercial stuff seems to have crimped primers nowdays too.

That said, I went from using Federals for everything I shoot in a pistol or revolver to trying to use up some Win LP primers I had on hand....again because they were available. Very hard to seat...and some boxes in a brick seemed worse than others. In this case I was using a Hornady LNL AP press with 45ACP brass that I have been (yes really) shooting since the 80's. It's mostly WCC millitary stuff with the crimps long ago removed. My loads are light and I don't even know how many loadings this stuff has had. The only change was a switch from Federal to Win primers. The Win primers do look at least a little bit "cruder". Maybe that's why we could get them when everything else had dried up :-) It's enough of a problem that I probably won't buy more for this use.
Paul

[oldhenry]

Paul,
I'm curious to know if the lot# on your batch happens to be GLK594G like mine. Up to me buying a sleeve of that lot# I had no problems.

Regards,
Henry

[pcarpenter]

Paul,
I'm curious to know if the lot# on your batch happens to be GLK594G like mine. Up to me buying a sleeve of that lot# I had no problems.

Regards,
Henry

Henry-- I apologize for the late reply. Lot No. is GCL405G and on the brick package tab is what might be a date of 12/12.

I think one potential issue is that these are clearly brass cupped primers. If they are even a little oversize, they are going to drag going in. The Federal primers I was using were nickel plated. Brass on brass tends to gall and stick. You can even take two pieces of brass and "wring" them together and get a bit of a weld. So, if the cups are even a bit oversize or there's say a little more burr left on the edge of the cup, that could easily explain more drag going in. I measured for dimensional differences between the two that would explain it and there was actually a little more diameter and cup thickness difference with the Federal primers than the Win primers, so I tend to revert back to the fact that the Federal primers are nickel plated and just feel slicker in the hand...much less in the brass on brass fitment that happens when seating them. I've been handloading for about 35 years and brought the subject up with a friend who's in his 70's and has been a precision loader for even more years. He's noticed the issue varying even from one box to another within a brick. That too takes me back to the issue of having plated primers which, for all intents and purposes, a guy could think of as "lubricated" vs. those that are not. That doesn't account for differences within a brand, box to box, but it may explain why those that are plated are just plain slicker than those that are not. Maybe that's no big deal until you get a close fit.

Paul

[oldhenry]

Paul.
Thanks for your insight. Your measurements of the Federal primers coincides with mine & Tazman's measurements with the CCI's are similar.

It's so peculiar that this problem hasn't popped-up before now. I've been loading since '60 (I'm 78) & casting since '61. I've used quite a few Winchester primers (admittedly more WSP & WSR than WLP.......but quite a few WLP) & have never had this problem before..

I think you're right about the different surfaces being the only possible explanation.

The shipping carton from Olin came Tuesday. Olin is to sent Old Dominion to pick it up. We'll soon find out what they say.

Regards,
Henry

[pcarpenter]

Looking forward to seeing what they say. I know I may sound stuck on the plating thing, but I still have a partial brick of Win LR primers from say the 90's and they are plated. Don't know if that corresponds with your previous vs. current experience with Win primers or not. I guess I never gave the time of day to worrying about the presence of plating, in the past, but if I go back far enough, I was not loading on a progressive press. Also, nearly everything I used was plated in the past with the exception of Remington small-rifle BR primers. I just figured that these newer Win primers were not plated as a time saving thing from when they could not make anything fast enough to meet market demand.
Paul

[snowwolfe]

Over the years I have learned to do one thing to every case before it is reloaded. And that is to run a primer pocket cutter\uniformer into each primer pocket. You would be shocked at the difference between cases from the same lot number. Some require a lot of cutting and some you put the cutting tool in and it will not even contact any brass.

[Walt]

Looking forward to seeing what they say. I know I may sound stuck on the plating thing, but I still have a partial brick of Win LR primers from say the 90's and they are plated. Don't know if that corresponds with your previous vs. current experience with Win primers or not. I guess I never gave the time of day to worrying about the presence of plating, in the past, but if I go back far enough, I was not loading on a progressive press. Also, nearly everything I used was plated in the past with the exception of Remington small-rifle BR primers. I just figured that these newer Win primers were not plated as a time saving thing from when they could not make anything fast enough to meet market demand.
Paul

I was very disappointed when Winchester did away with the primer plating. This occurred about the time of the so called "primer shortage" early in the Clinton administration. The timing was right for a time saving change to make sense however, as I understand it Winchester said they did away with the plating because of customer complaints of primer insensitivity. I'm still going to blame Clinton. :)

[oldhenry]

First of all: The following information is as accurate & factual as it can be presented by me.

My contact person @ Olin/Winchester is "Haley" and she has been extremely courteous.

About 10 days ago I received a check from Olin/Winchester for $61.00 for the 1,700 primers that I returned. This is a little shy of the $39.50/1000 that I paid, but I'm not complaining about the nickel & dimes.

I deliberated for a few days & finally phoned Haley & explained that I really preferred good primers rather than the $61.00 payment. I explained that I would need to travel 85-90 miles to buy replacement primers & how was I to know which batch would give me the same problems?

Olin's response:
1.They can't ship anything less than a "case" (that's what they call a 5000 primer sleeve).

2. I said I'd pay the difference between the 1,700 & a 5,000 "case" & this was not possible as they only ship to authorized distributors.

3. I asked about their determination of the problem & she says that she does not have that information.

4. There is no way to ID any replacement primers that may give the same problem.

My conclusion:

1. We'll never know from Olin/Winchester the cause of the problem.
2. In hindsight: I should have kept my 1,700 primers & made the best of a "not so good" situation.
3. If possible inspect future WLP purchases & buy only the new "shiney" ones (not always possible with 5,000 sleeve purchases which is how I buy them).
4. Every time I phoned Olin my call went to voice mail & the call back was at least 2-3 hours later or even the next day. This tells me that I'm not the only person having problems.

Henry

[Walt]

First of all: The following information is as accurate & factual as it can be presented by me.

My contact person @ Olin/Winchester is "Haley" and she has been extremely courteous.

About 10 days ago I received a check from Olin/Winchester for $61.00 for the 1,700 primers that I returned. This is a little shy of the $39.50/1000 that I paid, but I'm not complaining about the nickel & dimes.

I deliberated for a few days & finally phoned Haley & explained that I really preferred good primers rather than the $61.00 payment. I explained that I would need to travel 85-90 miles to buy replacement primers & how was I to know which batch would give me the same problems?

Olin's response:

1.They can't ship anything less than a "case" (that's what they call a 5000 primer sleeve).

2. I said I'd pay the difference between the 1,700 & a 5,000 "case" & this was not possible as they only ship to authorized distributors.

3. I asked about their determination of the problem & she says that she does not have that information.

4. There is no way to ID any replacement primers that may give the same problem.

My conclusion:

1. We'll never know from Olin/Winchester the cause of the problem.
2. In hindsight: I should have kept my 1,700 primers & made the best of a "not so good" situation.
3. If possible inspect future WLP purchases & buy only the new "shiney" ones (not always possible with 5,000 sleeve purchases which is how I buy them).
4. Every time I phoned Olin my call went to voice mail & the call back was at least 2-3 hours later or even the next day. This tells me that I'm not the only person having problems.

Henry

Thanks Henry,

I appreciate all the work you went through. I guess we will hope that the shoddy WLPs are history. All the Winchester primers I recently purchased look better (brighter,shinier) and so far I've had no problem with them in use.

Good luck, Walt

[oldhenry]

Thanks Henry,

I appreciate all the work you went through. I guess we will hope that the shoddy WLPs are history. All the Winchester primers I recently purchased look better (brighter,shinier) and so far I've had no problem with them in use.



Good luck, Walt

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

[Walt]

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

Still here Henry! Is that a 750 Commando? Walt

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Walt,
I appreciate your support.
I was beginning to feel all alone until you spoke up.
Henry

Henry, sorry I have not posted on this topic recently. I did post 11, 51, & 63, but did not think I had much more of anything useful to add. I too have several thousand of those Winchester LRP that do not fit into my .45-70 RP primer pockets. I did use close to 400 for .308, but I did prep all those primer pockets with a primer pocket reamer from Hornady, then chambered the pocket with a RCBS deburring tool. I believe those primers are slightly oversize and/or very hard material. Someday I'll try to measure mine too, and hopefully be able to find this post. I need to load more .45-70 before deer season. I appreciate you staying with the thread to provide many details including your interaction with Winchester. Still on the primer subject, in the mid 1980's I did wind up with a box of 100 Federal LRP that were VERY sensitive, and would pop about one-half the time when try to seat the primer without undue force. Federal did a recall but I had used all mine up by the time I found out.

[oldhenry]

Still here Henry! Is that a 750 Commando? Walt

Actually it's a '79 Yamaha SR500 single. I completely rebuilt it to look like one of the British 500 singles that were popular in the '50s. I like thumpers (my 1st bike was a '51 Matchless 500 single).

It is very close to a Brit single in appearance (but it does not leak oil & the lights work).

Henry

[Walt]

Actually it's a '79 Yamaha SR500 single. I completely rebuilt it to look like one of the British 500 singles that were popular in the '50s. I like thumpers (my 1st bike was a '51 Matchless 500 single).

It is very close to a Brit single in appearance (but it does not leak oil & the lights work).

Henry

Wow I missed that by a mile. The lettering on the tank in that tiny picture looked like the Norton. My brother had a BSA 441 Victor, definitely a thumper. :)

[oldhenry]

Wow I missed that by a mile. The lettering on the tank in that tiny picture looked like the Norton. My brother had a BSA 441 Victor, definitely a thumper. :)

Walt, the 441 was definitely a "thumper". Bikes are a lot like guns in that when we were young we didn't have the funds to get what we thought we wanted & settled for something else. Now that we're older and can afford whatever, we really want to reconnect back to our younger days. That's how I became an "accidental thumper lover" (back then I wanted a Triumph twin but could only afford that used "Matchbox").

I admit that the tiny avatar photo is misleading.I hope the management doesn't mind me attaching few photos. The 1st one is of the tank after the paint, stripes & clear coat over the stripes. That script is "Velocette" type (another of my favorite "Brit" big singles).

The next 3 are different views of the bike just after I finished it (a 1 year effort).

The last is right before it's maiden voyage to the Barber Vintage Weekend in 2015.....all loaded & ready to go. I went a day early & my two sons joined me the next day. We'll do it again this Friday (we'll all ride together).

Regards,
Henry

[Walt]

At a distance that gold lettering on the black tank shouts Norton:) I don't know how to post any pictures but Google Norton 750 Commando and you'll see what I mean. The little Yamaha is a good looking bike!

[oldhenry]

At a distance that gold lettering on the black tank shouts Norton:) I don't know how to post any pictures but Google Norton 750 Commando and you'll see what I mean. The little Yamaha is a good looking bike!

I'm familiar with the Norton 750 Commando......they're classic Brit bikes. My Yamaha is a mixture of Brit 500 single characteristics: The Velocette script on the tank (+ Velocettes colors on 99% of their bikes were black with gold stripes, the exhaust header is strictly BSA Gold Star, the seat is a mixture of Velocette & some models of Triumph & the aluminum fenders (and brackets) resemble the Matchless G80CS.

The singles are light, slim, torquey & handle great in the "twistys" (plus that thumper sound grows on ya).

Regards,
Henry

[dmize]

Has anyone here had a problem with older WLP ignition?
I mentioned this on Singleactions a while back and it seemed some there had issues as well.
I bought so many primers after the Clinton regime that I cant tell when they were purchased but it was so bad I switched to CCI 300 and 350's

[oldhenry]

Has anyone here had a problem with older WLP ignition?
I mentioned this on Singleactions a while back and it seemed some there had issues as well.
I bought so many primers after the Clinton regime that I cant tell when they were purchased but it was so bad I switched to CCI 300 and 350's

I have 4 Ruger SAs (2 of which use WLP) & have never had any ignition problems.......even those that were extra difficult to seat. However, all 4 of my SAs have the factory main spring. In fact, I'm considering installing a aftermarket spring in each that would be stronger than the factory spring. I'm interested in faster lock time.

Henry

[dmize]

My problems were not spring related,all of them are stock and it was in about 9 different guns.

[tazman]

I have only been using Large Primers in the last 6 months since I purchased my 45ACP. I have been using WLP almost exclusively in that time. I posted some pictures earlier in this thread about the discoloration and more difficult seating when I finally got some other brands to compare them to.
I haven't had any failures to fire in that entire time.

[JMax]

I have used them for decades in 44 mag and 45ACP in both auto and tuned revolvers without any problems.

[oldhenry]

My problems were not spring related,all of them are stock and it was in about 9 different guns.

I owe you an apology. My comment about the stock main spring use was not proper & in an unintended way insinuated that your main spring may be the problem. I should be more sensitive about such things because I got that same (probably not intended) response about my primer problem. I forgot to add to my thread that I use a Sinclair primer pocket uniformer on all brass & do swage all military brass. I even swage commercial brass if there is a problem seating the primer. I have 3 pieces of Winchester brass on my bench now that defies primer seating & I've done everything under the sun to prep them for a primer. Go figure.

Henry

[dmize]

No need for an apology.
Since I read this thread I do remember having intermittent seating issues in the past also with all different cases.
I also was given a pile of S&B 44 mag brass. I went so far as using my Lyman crimp remover,I ended up throwing all of it in my spent primer bucket