variable power recoil springs ?

[Bmi48219]

I have a new 1911 (44 acp) with a 14 lb variable power recoil spring. The overall fit of this pistol is tight & way more accurate than I. I ran a box of factory 230 RN FMJ through it, twice the slide stopped 1/8" short of fully closing after ejecting spent brass and pushing another round into the chamber. With my reloads this happened about every 8th round. I then tried dropping 100 rounds into the chamber, all plunked and almost all fell out when I inverted the barrel. On the few that didn't drop out I dropped a bamboo skewer down the muzzle and they fell out. Fired those rounds and same issue. When the slide stops short I can lightly tap it with the ball of my thumb and it closed fully. Some of the more experienced shooter I know say this problem will clear up after the pistol breaks in.
I'm wondering if a non-variable power spring would help in the mean time. Here's a pic or two
202026 202027

[Bmi48219]

Oops meant 45 acp

[skeettx]

Not a concern, the pistol will right itself.
One thing you can do to assist it is to insure a good slide
lube on the rails, the top of the barrel and the front of the barrel.
Also on the top round of the full magazine place a SMALL smidgen of grease
on the side of the 45 ACP round. Will act to season the chamber just like
you season a frying pan and the ejection/feed issues should clear up.

Please report back
Mike

[edp2k]

1911 45 ACP factory spring is 16 Lbs.
Many people run 18 or 18.5 Lb springs when firing factory hardball or equivalent loads.

I would say your 14 Lb spring is too light.
Either the spring is too light to close the slide,
or what may actually be happening is that the slide is opening with such force
that it bounces back forward at the end of it's rearward travel with more energy
(since it's hitting the frame harder) and thus the slide is coming forward
with more speed and then closing and actually rebounding back and opening up the
action a bit. do some research on M16 bolt bounce.

When a 1911 recoil spring is too light the slide impacts the frame harder and batters it.
A factory strength or 2 Lb stronger spring will run better with the hardball loads
and, most importantly, protect your slide and frame from battering.

In addition, variable power recoil springs allow the gun to unlock sooner,
which is not a good thing.
I ran a variable power recoil spring for a short time years ago and then went back to a
standard spring, and the gun ran much better.

[Bmi48219]

I ordered 15 & a 16 lb standard springs to try. Reloads are 4.3 gr TiteGroup under a 230 CPRN. not really up to a hardball power load. Just loaded 50 more with a more aggressive crimp but I don't think that's binding up the round from fully clambering. I plunked these & all dropped right in & out. Racked a couple through the cycle & noticed a scuff mark on top of the bullets in ejected live rounds. Like the bullet is bumping the barrel hood on the way in. Mark is more obvious when using a Tripp mag than when tried with a Wilson. I may be over thinking the whole situation at this point. For next range trip I'm going to compare slide performance between factory hardball ammo & my own loads. If factory loads function more reliably than reloads I will look in that direction. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Greg S]

With standard 230 ball @ 820-850 fps you need to run a 16.0 recoil spring. Continued use with the lighter spring will result in excessive battering and could crack the spring tunnel of the slide. If you go up to an 18.5 lb spring, you'll need to fit and clearance an extended ejector and cut it back to the rear of the magwell to get reliable eject with assorted projectiles (185, 200 and 230) at various velocities.

If this is a new pistol, heed the above advice and run the pistol wet until all friction points wear in or seat (300-800 rounds)

It almost sounds as if the pistol is hanging up on chambering as the round breaks over the feed ramp of the barrel or the rim is hanging up sliding under the extractor. Clean the chamber and inspect the top of the chamber for tool marks and the next time on the range when the pistol fails to return to battery fully to see if the rim is under the extractor fully or just starting. If it is just starting it could either be excessive tension or a tuning issue (minor tweak) being compounded by a light recoil spring and slide friction on tye rails (new gun).

[Dan Cash]

What GregS said regarding wear in. Sounds like, if flared and un crimped case necks are not a problem, the locking lugs are not properly fitted. As others have said, a stronger recoil spring (not variable rate) will probably solve the problem. I have never had to tinker with the ejector when using a heavier recoil spring but I have never tried 150 or other very light bullets with heavy springs.

[Bmi48219]

Last night I loaded 60 rounds, 4.3 Titegroup, 230 Xtreme copper plated RN, COL = 1.264".
All passed plunk test. I also increased the crimp. Then oiled the pistol. Went to range today, first ten rounds cycled fine, after that about every 8th round the slide didn't fully close. I drew slide back on a couple of these, brass was gripped by the (external) extractor and looked to be in alignment with chamber. As before when the slide didn't fully close a gentle flick with my right thumb closed it.
Should I be looking at going to a shorter COL?
1.264" cycles fine in my other 45's.

[skeettx]

Not tried the SMALL bit of grease on the hull yet?
I use the silicon like grease that comes with garage door openers.
I have a buddy that installs them :)
Mike

[knifemaker]

If your loaded rounds passed the plunk test, no need to change anything on your handloads. If the case rim was fully seated under the extractor as you said, the extractor is not your problem. Change to a 16 pound standard recoil spring and I bet your problem will go away. I have had problems years back with progressive rate springs and will not use them in any of my 1911's.

[Bmi48219]

Come to think of it I slathered it with oil & it ran good for a while, I'll try the grease next trip. Put it on the side of the brass?

[skeettx]

Yes, just top round normally for a while and just a small bit on the side of the case sticking above the magazine

[Eldon]

Interesting thread. In another direction, I have a the new Savage 22 semi auto silouhtte model with a GEMTECH can on it. With HV ammo it's no ear plugs but still not silent. With Std Vel quiet but still not silent. With subsonics (have to run by hand) is silent (except for the action cycling). Now I have to buy a new recoill spring and start cutting until it cycles.

[Bmi48219]

Grease was hit / miss. Greased the top round (5 in mag) & went 11 rounds before first 'had to thumb the slide forward'. Greased again, got three good cycles & another not so good. Out of 65 rounds had 6 failures to fully close. I had loaded the 65 rounds at 1.254" COL, tight crimp, all plunked fine. Going to try a 15 lb. non variable spring next trip. Even with the problems 60 out of the 65 landed in 2 inch groups at 25 feet offhand. already my favorite shooter, problems and all.

[skeettx]

Thank you for the report
Mike

[wv109323]

Is the mark on the bullet on the top or bottom. Mark a few pieces of brass with a marker and load them with the mark on top. Chamber a few of these rounds and determine where the mark on the bullet is and what it is hitting.
Look at the rim of your reloads. Is the extractor hitting any part of the case? Either in the deepest part of the groove or the front of the extractor groove. The tension of the extractor may not be allowing the case to slide up the breech face. When you bump the slide forward is the extractor being pushed out which indicates too much extractor tension.
The diameter of the reloaded case rim may be too wide for the breech face. Again look at case rims for interference.
Use a 16 lb. spring and load hot enough to function the pistol. A heavier spring will wear the barrel lugs when going into battery. A 200 gn. Bullet at 725 FPS will function a 16 lb. spring.

[Bmi48219]

I marked some loaded rounds hen I first had this problem. The bullet is scuffing on something @ 11 o'clock (figuring 11 on the face of chamber). This is my first 1911 with an external extractor. I retracted the slide when it stops short of full close & cartridge appears to be snug to breech face. Today I swapped the 14# variable recoil spring for a new 14# Wolf standard spring. The variable spring is about 1 1/4" shorter. I hand cycled a full mag of reloads through, letting the slide snap forward after ejecting the previous round. It fully closed each time. I miked my reloads for COL & diameter at the mouth of brass. Same dimensions or slightly less than some Perfecta factory loads I have on hand. I could be way off base but I keep thinking, it's so easy to push the slide closed when it does stop short, maybe the spring is just weak. It's supposed to be a new spring but who can tell for sure. Going to try the new spring with factory ammo & reloads Sunday. I'll post results.

[ulav8r]

Still sounds like original problem was a weak spring. You should always use the strongest spring that will cycle reliably to reduce stress on the frame and slide.

[Bmi48219]

Hope ulav8r is correct, if the new 14 lb. spring doesn't improve cycling I have a 15 lb. looking for a home.

[Bmi48219]

Tried the new 14 lb. non-variable recoil spring today. Looks like the 15 lb. goes in tonight. I started off with 50 reloads (4.3 TiteGroup, Winchester primer & 230 CPRN projectile. Put a dab of grease top of top round in mag. First 20 rounds cycled perfect. On 21st slide stopped 1/8" before full close. Thumbed it forward. Happened twice more while shooting the first 50 reloads. Should add I regreased top round a couple times. Guessing (actually grasping at straws) that 4.3 gr. TiteGroup might not be compressing spring enough to slam it home, I tried 20 rounds @ 4.4 gr, shortened the COL to 1.254 & tightened the crimp. Had another short close midway through the 20. Then 20 more @ 4.5 grs & another short close in the process. Lastly, I had a half box of Perfecta 230 FMJ. 4 short closes with the factory loaded ammo. All the ammo I used passed plunk test. Baffled is an understatement at this stage of the trial. This pistol is really tight. Slide feels like it's on bearings. Storm Lake Match barrel, Caspian frame & slide, external extractor. The smith that built it says the 14 lb. variable rate spring is correct for the pistol.
I am going to check how tight brass rim fits under extractor when I install the 15 lb spring. Cartridge looks to be in line with barrel when slide stops short but it's hard to tell because it's almost fully closed. I'll post after trying the 15 lb spring. I've put about 340 rounds throughout so far. Maybe it needs to break in further.

[skeettx]

One more SMALL grease point is on the face of the slide where the head of the cartridge slides up
into position from the mag.
Mike

[wv109323]

If the contact is at 11 o'clock, Is the barrel throated at that position. If there is a a sharp corner then the interference may be slowing the slide down and not allowing it to "slam home". I had a Kart barrel do this but the rounds would stop short of entering the chamber.
Another reason could be the timing of the action. Are there any marks on the top barrel lugs? Are the lugs sharp corners?
The compression of the recoil spring to to get the spring plunger behind the the barrel bushing is pre-load. It takes a certain poundage amount of per-load to fully close the slide on a 1911. There are a lot of things happening in the final lock-up of the slide. The top barrel lugs are being pushed up into the slide, The rim of the case is still being pushed under the extractor, the bottom barrel lugs are sliding up the slide stop, the round is still moving forward in the chamber, the barrel hood is sliding into position. It takes spring pre-load to overcome all these.
I have never used a variable spring in a 1911 but my guess is that it has less pre-load and more load bearing when it is compressed in recoil. You said the spring was a lot shorter than a round wire spring. That concerns me about the per-load.
Can you duplicate the slide staying out of full battery by slowly allowing the slide slide to go forward holding it back by hand?

[wv109323]

Take a black marker and darken the areas mentioned in my last post. Top barrel lugs, sides and back of barrel hood and extractor rim of case. Work the action and determine your contact points. One of them is not allowing the slide to fully close.
If the slide is going back far enough to pick up a round out of the magazine (which it seems like it is) then there is enough force to close the slide all the way under normal circumstances.

[ulav8r]

By staying with the light springs, the slide hits its stop harder and puts more stress on the frame. A heavier spring will close the slide harder, but will do less damage than using a light spring. The heavy spring will also make the recoil seem lighter.

[Bmi48219]

The 15 lb. Wolf spring did the trick! I shot 100 rounds of my 4.3 gr / 230 CPRN reloads yesterday without a single malfunction. Going to put another 100 through it Thursday then strip & clean. Once it's clean I intend to follow wv109323's procedure to see where the contact points are. Working rounds through by retracting & slowly allowing it to go forward while holding it does result in slide not going to full battery. Still wants to stop 1/4" or so short. WV, when you say "extractor rim" do you mean the outer edge of rim or groove too ? The 15 lb. spring make the pistol feel a little more 'lively' but it still shoots better than me. I think after another 250 rounds I will try the 14 lb again on the assumption it is still breaking in. Anyway thanks for all the helpful advice. Here's pic of 10 round group offhand (two hands) at 27 feet from yesterday. My 30 & 35 foot targets weren't as good but I'm working on it. Not counting the one outside the box it measures 1 5/8" outside of hole to outside of hole.
Thanks again
.202914

[skeettx]

Great shooting
Thanks for the report
Mike

[Char-Gar]

As other have said, the 1911 pistol was designed to operate with a 16 lb recoil spring and full snort 230 grain ammo.

The Colt Gold Cup came with a 14 lb spring for light target loads.

I have Wolfe 16.5 variable springs in my Colt 1911s and never have a problem. I don't oil or grease my ammo. I do grease the rails of the pistol.

John Browning designed these pistol to operate within a certain range of recoil, slide velocity etc. When you start jacking with that, you get problems and posts like yours.

Any decent 1911, properly lubricated, using a 16 lb recoil spring, shooting good quality 200 -230 grain ammo at 800 to 875 FPS will be 100% reliable. If it is not, then look to your ammo and/or your magazines. These things have been around for 105 years and there are no secrets left to discover. Folks seem to want to tinker with perfection and change this and that, and often induce unreliability as a side effect.

[wv109323]

I would check the outer rim of the case and the extractor groove also. Brass that has been reloaded several times can flatten out the rim and increase the rim diameter. The increased diameter may not allow the brass to slide up the breechface. The "nose" of the extractor needs to fit in the extractor groove. The extractor should not be contacting the front of the groove pushing the round into the chamber. Likewise the extractor should allow the case to headspace on the mouth of the case in the chamber. I reckon another way of saying it is the extractor should not be pulling or pushing on the case. If the extractor "claw" is hitting the case at the bottom of the extractor groove that is OK.