Looking for some plastics/polymer experts: Chime in on Gen 1 Glock

[birch]

Well--Glocks have always been a little bit like a welcome ***** in my life. I love the pistols when I have one, but once it is gone, I really don't miss it--until I see a good deal on another one. Then I am in love again.

I have had every caliber made, and just about every OAL and frame size--except the first generation guns. For some reason, they just do not come up in my neck of the woods.

Long story short--I put the word out that I would like get a gen 1 Glock 17 and it appears that I will be the proud owner of a nearly new on this coming sunday.

My question is aimed at some folks who have actually studied the molecular structure of polymers. I know there are some die hard Glock lovers who might chime in here--please try to refrain. I am only wanting to know the possible longevity of the Glock frame as far as overall strength and durabilty over the course of........maybe 2 lifetimes. Does the chemistry suggest a long and stable lifespan if used under normal circumstances or are there some inherent structural and chemical bonds that might break down over the course of a couple of generations (my life and my son's to be exact).

Keep in mind, I will never come close to putting thousands of rounds down the pipe of this gun a year. I have plenty of pistols to share, and I enjoy them all. I also won't be leaving this out in the sun for long periods of times. However, I am a firm believer in cleaning my guns, so they will receive liberal amounts of CLP, Hoppes and G96 along with medium power handloads of the cast boolit variety.

Thanks in advance. This gun will turn 32 years old this year.

[lefty o]

my brother has a gen1 that has a ton of rnds thru it. still going strong.

[Catshooter]

It'd be easy to call me a Glock fanboy. But, like you, I was/am curious about the polymer's lifespan.

I have read every thread I could find on the subject since I got on the internet (1999). By then I'd been a Glock owner for ten years. In my opinion, nobody's worth listening to on this subject unless they are some sort of polymer scientist or engineer. Everybody else has opinions, which of course are worthless.

From what I've read, polymer's #1 enemy is ultraviolet light. Carbon black is added to the Glock frame to counter this issue. That's why it's black. Nylon is normally a milky white. With this additive, the frame should last for many years. How many? Good dang question, and it's one I haven't been able to find an answer to.

So if you find out it'd be great if you'd let me know too! :)


Cat

[Bazoo]

Be interesting to know how the glocks frame would hold up to laying in a window sill for a decade. Wonder if it'd be lighter on the side that was facing the sun, like all other plastics.

[Idaho45guy]

Believe it or not, those Gen 1 Glocks are beginning to achieve collector status and prices are going up. Saw a couple listed on Gunbroker for $800 and $1200. If it comes in the original matching Tupperware box and has original magazines, then it might be worth holding onto as an investment...

[birch]

I thought it a bit of a joke to think of Glocks as collectors items, but I have not seen a gen 1 Glock at a gunshow or gun shop in over 10 years. I have seen way more yellowboy Winchesters!!!!!

I know they are not going to stand the test of time like steel guns, but it sure would be interesting to here from a chemist on this topic.

[dragon813gt]

Why is it a joke to think of them as collector's items? They have a large customer base. Lots of people have grown up w/ them. It's usually the older generation who doesn't see the value in what the younger generation likes. While still being produced history has shown when a model ceases to be produced its value rises. Look at Savage 99s as a recent example. There will be people who collect every Glock model just like there are people who collect every S&W.

[beemer]

I have had a Gen 1 since the late 80's, box and everything. I'm just not sure witch mags are the original and I did buy a couple of extra at the time. Is there anyway to date the mags, I think there have been some changes but I don't know what.

I know that some of the early mags cracked at the back. I think one of mine has and was wondering if that hurt the reliability ?

I fell into a Gen 2 a several years after I got the first , I've never really been a Glock fan or shot them a lot but kept them because they seem to work and keep working.

I know a little OT but I thought a few Glock people might be at the party.

Dave

[Catshooter]

beemer,

Your original mags will have a U shaped notch in the rear where the slide strips the cartridge. Newer ones are squared. The floor plate will have a step all the way around it except at the rear. The mags probably won't drop free from the weapon even if loaded.

Hope this helps.


Cat

[Bazoo]

The older mag like catshooter said will have a U shaped cut in that back instead of a flat bottom notch. If im not mistaken, original mags were made to swell when loaded so they couldnt be inadvertently released from the gun, but they almost immediately offered standard drop free mags too for the US market.

[birch]

Good stuff!

[beemer]

Thank you for the info on the mags. I have 8 mags and the only two have the square notch, a 10 round and a 17 round mag still in the blister pack. That means the Gen 2 came with the older mags.

[Speedo66]

The U notched mags go for a premium in restricted states that grandfathered in higher capacity mags. When I left a restricted state I traded mine to people in states who could use them.

[reddog81]

I'm sure if even a small sample of these had started to break it would be all over the internet. I imagine even some of these early guns spent years in duty holsters exposed to various elements on a regular basis.

Given the lack of failures being experienced I'd bet 50 to 100 years shouldn't be a problem for your average Glock. However any gun can fail at any point in time.

With out knowing the exact materials and processes used to manufacture the original Glocks even an experts opinion is just going to be a guess.

[Kestrel4k]

Materials engineer checking in. :wave:

Also, I have worked with the artifical ageing of polymer samples in industry.

One eventual demise of plastics can be their loss of plasticizers or other components over time (think about soft vinyl seat covers that eventually start cracking due to age). You know how modern manufactures like to brag that their product is a "polymer COMPOSITE" - well any engineered composite can be susceptible to component dissociation or desegregation over time. And the term 'plastic' means that this sort of behavior is always present.

With regards to threats, UV can & does break polymer chains - DEPENDING on the bond strengths of the molecules. This can be engineered around, so as to not be an issue - i.e. ensuring that the bond strength is greater than the energy associated with specific UV wavelengths.

However, the possible presence of plasticizers or dissimilar components in the plastic composite is a critical variable:


Part 2:

An engineer can use the Arrhenius equation to simulate age-related degradation of plastics, related to diffusivity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation?wprov=sfla1

Elevated temperatures over limited time periods can be comparable to much longer time periods at 'normal' temperatures; 60 deg C is a reasonable upper temperature limit for artificial ageing experiments, although I have used 70C when preliminary results were needed quickly.

The last test of this nature that I ran was to simulate 5 years of aging on a plastic sample, which required approx. 1-2 months of exposure at 70C - if I recall correctly. (After which, the part can be evaluated for remaining strength, etc.)

The short version is that given a reasonable amount of laboratory time, even 100yrs of product life can be simulated accurately. Given a highly-engineered, high-quality plastic, I wouldn't expect many surprises over the long term. Although I do not know the specific characteristics of the polymer that Glock has used, /if/ they did a good job on the 'front end', I see no areas of looming concern on the 'back end' i.e. usage.

On the other hand, a manufacturer can certainly use an inexpensive plastic if they're OK with a relatively short ~5-10-yr product lifetime. Either way; if they did their job correctly, there shouldn't be any big surprises. An early demise can actually be engineered in - saving the manufacturer money on the front end (using cheap component materials), and eventually obtaining repeat business for replacement products on the back end. :(

One conclusion that can be of assistance here however; if you want to maximize the ultimate lifetime of your Glock, try to keep it stored at room temperature for the most part. Short-term elevated temps are not harmful per se, but do cause accelerated aging of the polymer. Therefore, a Glock that always resides in a car w/ hot summer temps should not last as long as one kept at room temperature. Whether that ends up being 50 / 100 / etc. yrs, I cannot say.

Hope this helps, :)

[Kestrel4k]

Be interesting to know how the glocks frame would hold up to laying in a window sill for a decade. Wonder if it'd be lighter on the side that was facing the sun, like all other plastics.
I have done this sort of testing as well, and it's rather fun. High-UV flourescent bulbs are available to simulate 20x (+) of sunlight, given the geometry of the specific test fixture. Keep a plastic or polymer fabric half-obscured, and check/photograph it every week or so. If it starts to show a 'tan line' after 1-2 months, well there you go. :)

What usually happens is that the polymer dye additive is breaking down, so the resulting color changes or fades.

So if you're worried about this, try to avoid red or green Glocks, lol. ;)
BUT since window glass is a rather effective UV blocker to begin with, I think you're covered either way.


Please note that this is different than /yellowing/ in clear plastics, which is the polymer chains breaking down due to long-term light exposure - resulting in the scattering of light at specific wavelengths related to those bond lengths. While this sounds dire, this is only happening with the minutest fraction of molecular bonds and shouldn't really relate to the bulk strength of the material.

Edit: So all in all, it's a pretty complicated topic - the many possible failure mechanisms of polymers can overlap in such a way as to obscure the specific failure mode for individual examples. And I don't /even/ want to get into the statistics, lol. :)

[9.3X62AL]

This has been a really good read, so far. Thanks to all who contributed.

It was that "magazine drop-free" element (lack thereof) in the Gen 1 Glocks that caused them to be rejected by my shop in 1987 when we adopted bottom-feeders to supplement our traditional 38 Special D/A wheelguns as duty arms. There was strong bias against the 9mm caliber as well, so the early Glocks lost out on 2 counts. The matter got re-visited c. 1994, and by that time the Gen 2 Glocks were in wide distribution, and in 40 S&W and 45 ACP chamberings. The mags fell free, the calibers were serious, so all at once the 40 S&W caliber--the 357 Magnum caliber--and the Glock pistol line came on board.

[Catshooter]

I have read several times (so it might even be true) that Glock uses a Nylon 6 compound. Frames and mags appear to be the same.

I have also read that Glock says that their other-than-black models won't last as long and that was one of the reasons they were slow in marketing them.

I have also read (can you tell I read a lot?) that one in seven Glock manufacturing employees are quality control dudes.

I think the weapon with the best chance of long life is an all stainless steel one. Thinking generational here. But after that, or for less than that sort of time span, I'd go with a Glock. Maybe even a Glock first. There sure doesn't seem to be anything easier to work on and availability of parts is way out in front.


Cat

[birch]

You folks are amazing! ....so many super smart people on this forum.

Thanks for all the fine info. It is appreciated.

[Plate plinker]

I have a mag with the U shape anybody want to float a C-note over for it? All kidding aside it is funny that Glock gen1 becomes a collector item, but if you think about it they were probably mostly all shot and therefore like Tonka trucks unusual to find in mint condition.

[Groo]

Groo here
The Gen 1 Glock is a special bird.
Mine is a 1986 2 pin frame and was my duty gun for 22 years.
The mags were the no drop free type which drove me to the +2 base plates.[ something to get a hold of]
It also has the original proof marks.
Riding in a duty holster and shooting IPSC for 5 years [ many K rounds for training] the only damage was cracked mags [the original.]
That frame [as was told to me] was the original mill spec [and no finger grooves!!!] and although not overly accurate[ mill spec LOOSE]
will run longer than you.

[myg30]

An FYI : Just a heads up to all with "Older" Glocks. If you send it in to glock for repair or their
free "safety update", you will receive back a like new pistol free including shipping. All the old parts will be replaced, your smooth nice trigger will get replaced with the hard to pull new trigger group. Your valued U notch $$ mags will get replaced with the square notch.
I would strongly suggest you go to a gun show or a gun shop and have the glock armorers only replace your broken or worn out part ex:( like and extractor). Glock will NOT SELL you parts they feel need to be replaced by a certified armorer. I'm not sure but I would guess you can purchase all the nessary "Aftermarket" replacement parts and repair yourself. Easy to do.
The only part I've ever had break was the leaf spring under the take down latch on a G 21 and a phone call to glock got me a replacement in the mail free.
All my glocks are stock. I've done the $ .25 cent trigger job on the ones that needed it and were not broken in yet. They all are fed my cast boolits. Only my carry pistol gets Factory Jacketed after broken in with a full diet of cast.
No issues with frames or other polymer parts yet. ( except standard guide Rod replacements)
Love my glocks, Mike

[Petrol & Powder]

A lot of good input here and a big THANK YOU to kestrel4K for that excellent post !

We don't know how long Glock frames will last but we DO know how long they have lasted. Based on just that empirical information I'd say the odds are good that the frames will easily go several decades. (they'll probably go a lot more)

Kestrel4K - I'm not an engineer but a lot of my family members are/were engineers so I respect your input. I will say that not all conditions are foreseeable and therefore accelerated wear testing provides a good yardstick but it isn't absolute. Since we don't have time machines, it's about the best we can do :smile:

Quest plastic pipe was one of those examples in which additional factors changed the predicted lifespan of the product. Exposure to sunlight (UV light) and chlorine, significantly reduced the expected lifespan of that product. With that example in mind, I think if there was some factor that accelerated the wear of a Glock polymer frame, we would have seen evidence of it by now.
We now have about 30+ years of actual experience with the Glock and Glocks have been exposed to just about everything they are going to be exposed to: Sunlight, heat, cold, water, salt water, every imaginable cleaning solution, different powders, holsters, long term storage, etc. They've proven to be incredibly durable. Time will be the ultimate test but we know for a fact they will go 30 years.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Glock will NOT SELL you parts they feel need to be replaced by a certified armorer. I'm not sure but I would guess you can purchase all the nessary "Aftermarket" replacement parts and repair yourself. Easy to do. Mike

Mike may not sell you every part but there is no need to be "certified" to work on a Glock and all the guns parts are readily available from Brownell's or Midway or about 200 other sources that sell both factory and aftermarket parts.

The Armorers Course, which I have 2 of on CD is good information,,, but the Certification Part is a Joke!!! and doesn't mean squat!!!

I have had several "certified armorers" tell me that if I shot Cast Boolits it would blow up my guns and me. We all know that's BS and when a guy tells me something like that I tend to disregard everything else he says that follows. And if he tells me he's a "Certified Armorer" to boot that pretty much ends the conversation. Just because you listen to a CD or even attend the One Day Armorers Course and get a Certification doesn't mean you know what you are doing. There is a little thing called experience that kind of goes along with it. Also when guy spouts of BS like the Cast Boolit warning it becomes obvious that he doesn't have the experience.

If you own a Glock and have completely Disassembled and Reassembled it 5-10 times you are probably certified enough to work on your gun. There just isn't that much to these guns and as long as you stick with Stock Glock Parts and don't get too exuberant with "Polishing" stuff it is pretty hard to screw one up,,, I think you'll be fine.

My ongoing .02 on this subject.

Randy

[oger]

Just sort of fell into a Gen 1 17-L comp that still has original barrel with no cracks I can find. The thing was in a friends truck in a padded box for almost 20 years and yes I paid him what it is worth.