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Ickisrulz
08-13-2017, 10:38 PM
Do you fully agree with your church's doctrine? Do you feel it is wrong to question what you have been taught? If so why? If not, what do you disagree with and why? I am just curious.

I was raised in a United Methodist church but eventually gravitated to Assemblies of God. I have a couple areas of disagreement when it comes to A/G doctrine. I have arrived at these disagreements through personal study. I believe doctrine is a starting point, but that every believer should investigate to see if they come to the same conclusions.

1. I am not thoroughly convinced that the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was separate from being "Born Again" (this idea is unique to Pentecostals). But I am not convinced that it was not (most other denominations teach this). I remain neutral on the issue and don't get worked up about it.

2. I lean toward annihilation of the wicked rather than an eternal conscious punishment. This is a very big issue with lots of ramifications.

3. I don't believe a divorced person is ineligible for a church leadership role. The Assemblies will not, in most cases, ordain a divorced person. Of course a former drug dealer, etc. is eligible. This just doesn't pass the common sense test, nor does this idea stand up to proper biblical interpretation.

Tom W.
08-13-2017, 11:37 PM
I was brought up Catholic and by time I was old enough to think for myself I gravitated to Baptist. I can't see the priest telling me to pray to Joseph, and if I got no results to pray to Mary to get her son in line to answer my prayers. Plus some of the other beliefs I just can't swallow.

That's not to say that I believe everything the Baptists believe. I actually went to Independent Baptist. I have had issues with their strict dress code, such as a female must wear an ankle length dress. Never pants. HOWEVER, they can wear coulottes, which are billowing pants that look like a dress. I'm one of those people who think it is one way or the other, if that is your doctrine. Little things, I know, but please don't tell me one thing and you do another and look down on me. It also has the theory that a divorced person cannot hold any office in the church, nor will the pastor marry a couple who was previously divorced, but will happily marry a couple who had a child out of wedlock. And former drunks and drug addicts, and people of dubious character can easily become a pastor.

The church Lori and I go to now is a pretty huge church, Cascade Hills in Columbus, Georgia. The pastor's son has been taking over since his father's health is not what it was, but the messages are great. They even broadcast on the web. I really don't like the modern music, having been a choir director and song leader in another church, and liking the old hymns. But no, I don't believe we are all going to die and go to hell because Tom doesn't like that style music.

I really don't think that anyone likes everything about their Church, unless they have drunk the koolaid......

Ok flame on, but be polite and respectful.

claude
08-14-2017, 07:34 AM
Do you fully agree with your church's doctrine?

I do indeed, I will offer my opinions on your questions, you can accept them, or reject them as you chose, without discussion.

1. The Holy Spirit manifestation of Pentecost was indeed a different matter, The confusion, if there is any comes from the mistaken notion of being born again, as opposed to being born from above. A short summation, when our fathers sperm enters our mothers egg and a new creature is formed, our spirit is sent by God from heaven to reside in that creature, hence, we are born from above. All, must be born from above to be born of the flesh to die once. The exceptions would be the angels of Jude 1:6 who decided to thumb their noses at God and earned a death sentence for refusing to stay in their first estate.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2.The final end of those who refuse to believe, is indeed complete annihilation, the punishment being eternal, the punishing being swift and final. Rev. 20 will cover it pretty well, and one must understand "Blotted out" and what it means, totally erased from time, for and aft, as though it never existed. So when one is blotted out from the book of life, they cease to be, they cease to have been, there is no memory of them to cause pain and suffering to those who remain. Rev 21:4

3.In short, If God forgives our trespasses, and makes us new again, and remembers the sin no more, why do people think they are somehow better than God and refuse to forgive the divorcee and let them move on with their lives. Perhaps hypocrisy, perhaps ignorance, perhaps the inability to throw out the old leaven and move into the light.

rl69
08-14-2017, 05:11 PM
No sir I don't not somuch as to make any diferance.

Hickory
08-14-2017, 07:19 PM
I go to a nondenominational church that doesn't lord over the parishioners with an iron fist.
Our pastor teaches Bible doctrine and has said that if you are truly saved and follow Jesus and seek to please Him there is no need to be held captive by church doctrine, which has little or no real value as to your salvation.

Tom W.
08-14-2017, 09:32 PM
I do agree with your assessment!

TES
08-14-2017, 09:38 PM
No...Here's why....I refuse to sit through a sermon and I am told what bad person I am.....then the plate comes around. Also I refuse to buy into an organization that almost all of the worlds wars have been fought over. In other words...if religion was so darn peaceful then why are wars fought over them? In a room full men declaring righteousness by any name who is right? It's the guy that could careless and yes that is an empty church as my avatar.

Ickisrulz
08-14-2017, 09:52 PM
No...Here's why....I refuse to sit through a sermon and I am told what bad person I am.....then the plate comes around. Also I refuse to buy into an organization that almost all of the worlds wars have been fought over. In other words...if religion was so darn peaceful then why are wars fought over them? In a room full men declaring righteousness by any name who is right? It's the guy that could careless and yes that is an empty church as my avatar.

So the doctrine of your church is?:

1. All members are bad people
2. All members must give an offering
3. Members must advocate for war

Sounds like some very weird doctrine.

Char-Gar
08-14-2017, 10:15 PM
Oh, I disagree in part or in whole with my church and every other Christian denomination known to man. I look to a local congregation for compatible people and a valid worship experience. I expect to find people in said congregation with whom I disagree, plus I don't give a hoot what the pastor/priest thinks on any subject under the sun. I don't not need one of those people to tell me what the truth is or to "minister" to me in any way.

Bzcraig
08-14-2017, 11:36 PM
No, I have never attended a church whose doctrine I completely agree with.

1. I agree with your thoughts and conclusion - not an issue that will make any difference in eternity.

2. You may or may not remember but I came to the same conclusion after a brief exchange with you and some searching of Scriptures.

3. I do think that divorce of a Christian (except for abandonment) can preclude SOME leadership roles but certainly not all and certainly should be determined on a case by case basis. A very rare example from a church we attended; senior pastor married with children and pregnant wife of 7 months. He is arrested for soliciting a male prostitute and subsequently is divorced. In my mind he is no longer eligible to serve in any leadership role. We attended a very large AG church (though they advertised as a non-denominational, which bothered me but not enough to keep us from attending) who asked me to consider being on the counsel. I had previously served as a bi-vocational associate pastor of a very small church. Once I told them I had been married and divorced as a non believer 30 years or so prior, the offer was rescinded. In my case, no harm, no foul but they had a pastor on staff who had been married and divorced as a believer and pastor. And as your example points out common sense is not always applied either.

Knowing I will never attend a church I fully agree with, it is up to me to find a church that I mostly agree with and who in my studied opinion does not cross the line biblically on those topics I disagree with.

jmort
08-14-2017, 11:54 PM
Southern Baptist
Pretty much OK with it
Have been in many different churches
From Roman Catholic to Dutch Reform to Pentecostal to non-denominational
I like the fact that the Southern Baptists make every church body independent
They make recommendations
We do as we will
Wife and I became members a few weeks ago

TES
08-15-2017, 12:25 AM
So the doctrine of your church is?:

1. All members are bad people...(your a sinner)
2. All members must give an offering....(yea they do pass a plate)
3. Members must advocate for war.....(History proves that most wars were fought over religion.)

Sounds like some very weird doctrine.

I agree.

Thundarstick
08-15-2017, 05:59 AM
I have found NO assembly that has a doctrine I completely agree with. I believe every assembly should be autonomous from another, and the assemblies that bear the name of where I attend does.
One of the things that has always baffled me about our sins is this, either there forgiven and remembered no more, or there not! Yet ALL assemblys use past sins to determine ones worthiness to serve?

Hogtamer
08-15-2017, 07:22 AM
Each one of us has the free will to associate with any church of our choosing. And that church is the bride of Christ. It is not ours to reconcile the church to which we commit ourselves but to be reconciled to His bride. Choose as lead by the Spirit. Defend His bride, honor and support her, pray for her, love her, use the gifts God has given you to sustain her and be blessed in the doing. Grieve not the Spirit in condemning her. Please take this post as a confession for the stinking thinking that sometimes ensnares me. Forgive me Lord. Create in me a clean heart this morning, and renew in me a steadfast spirit.

UKShootist
08-15-2017, 07:34 AM
A most interesting thread for this here atheist/agnostic. I am probably not in a position to comment on the religious aspects, although I could, but there is one statement I have to object to. Most wars were not fought over religion, even if the participants said so. Religion, when used as a reason is in fact an excuse. War is about power and control every time. A war with an outside enemy unites the home front, allows a leader's power to grow for the necessity of the war, and to exercise power over both his own subjects and those he conquers. The appeal to religion, when it is used, merely serves to encourage the sheep to follow.

By way of example, the British experience with Romans -v- Protestants. Initiated by Henry VIII who wanted a divorce that the Pope wouldn't grant, but also the money that the monasteries would provide when he took over. Most of the fighting over the reigns of monarchs that followed and the many atrocities were done in the name of God, but it was power that was the cause.

In both world wars, churches everywhere in the allied side had their congregations praying for victory. On the belt buckle of every German soldier there was framed "Gott Mit Uns." Go figure. There is much evil in this world to be blamed on religion in general, but wars are not a major part of it.

jmort
08-15-2017, 08:23 AM
The left, communists, socialists, fascists killed far more than any religion.

Char-Gar
08-15-2017, 11:06 AM
A most interesting thread for this here atheist/agnostic. I am probably not in a position to comment on the religious aspects, although I could, but there is one statement I have to object to. Most wars were not fought over religion, even if the participants said so. Religion, when used as a reason is in fact an excuse. War is about power and control every time. A war with an outside enemy unites the home front, allows a leader's power to grow for the necessity of the war, and to exercise power over both his own subjects and those he conquers. The appeal to religion, when it is used, merely serves to encourage the sheep to follow.

By way of example, the British experience with Romans -v- Protestants. Initiated by Henry VIII who wanted a divorce that the Pope wouldn't grant, but also the money that the monasteries would provide when he took over. Most of the fighting over the reigns of monarchs that followed and the many atrocities were done in the name of God, but it was power that was the cause.

In both world wars, churches everywhere in the allied side had their congregations praying for victory. On the belt buckle of every German soldier there was framed "Gott Mit Uns." Go figure. There is much evil in this world to be blamed on religion in general, but wars are not a major part of it.

All evil in this world can be laid at the feet of sinful human nature. Every human institution and ideology has been shot through with this since the beginning of the human race. Atheists and every other "ist" and "ism" like to point to their least favorite human endeavor as being "evil". In part their are correct but in the main they are wrong and miss the big point.

pmer
08-15-2017, 12:12 PM
Do you fully agree with your church's doctrine? Do you feel it is wrong to question what you have been taught? If so why? If not, what do you disagree with and why? I am just curious.

I was raised in a United Methodist church but eventually gravitated to Assemblies of God. I have a couple areas of disagreement when it comes to A/G doctrine. I have arrived at these disagreements through personal study. I believe doctrine is a starting point, but that every believer should investigate to see if they come to the same conclusions.

1. I am not thoroughly convinced that the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was separate from being "Born Again" (this idea is unique to Pentecostals). But I am not convinced that it was not (most other denominations teach this). I remain neutral on the issue and don't get worked up about it.

2. I lean toward annihilation of the wicked rather than an eternal conscious punishment. This is a very big issue with lots of ramifications.

3. I don't believe a divorced person is ineligible for a church leadership role. The Assemblies will not, in most cases, ordain a divorced person. Of course a former drug dealer, etc. is eligible. This just doesn't pass the common sense test, nor does this idea stand up to proper biblical interpretation.

I think it's good to aware of church doctrine. Questioning doctrine was what really got me started in reading the bible. My thought was; "I think something isn't right but how can I be sure if don't get my nose in a bible to prove it". Many of Paul's letters are on building a healthy church and using correct doctrine. In Timothy, Paul, laid out characteristics of good leadership and how to handle the everyday squabbles of human interaction.

Markopolo
08-15-2017, 12:26 PM
I personally disagree with some or lots of somethings said in every church I have ever attended. I especially disagree with lots of the teachings in my tiny church where I live. I test everything by the word of Christ, through my personal relationship and the spirit. Because it is the only church within several hours journey, I attend, and do not cause strife. I believe in unity. I believe that we should not forsake the gathering of the body of Christ. Even though I don't agree with everything, I still am able to gleen spiritual food. It might be a diet of milk, but I get the meat I need through my study of the word, and personal relationship with Him. If anything, the disagreements fuel my own study of the truth. It is not my place to demand we all think alike, but my place to love !!!

Blessings..

Marko

Hogtamer
08-15-2017, 12:45 PM
Nicely put Marko.

Der Gebirgsjager
08-15-2017, 01:15 PM
I am pretty much in agreement with all of the teachings of the church to which I belong -- with one exception. They believe that the 6th Commandment is: Thou shalt not kill. I believe it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. Their translation precludes self-defense. Mine does not.

UKShootist -- I think that the Islamic situation we are facing is certainly a religious war. It is not at all like the Crusades, Christians vs. Moslems, but rather Moslems vs. Everyone else. But their motivation is their religious beliefs.

TES
08-15-2017, 04:49 PM
The left, communists, socialists, fascists killed far more than any religion.

Maybe if you lump them all together....?

dverna
08-15-2017, 06:50 PM
Questioning is good. It makes us think, and study, and search for answers. Too many search for a "perfect" church but I am not one of them. They are institutions run by men and man can never be perfect. Man cannot even interpret The Word consistently. Most people who accept everything they are told are taking the easy way or are naive. Reasonable men can agree to disagree and still work in harmony for the greater good.

Hogtamer
08-15-2017, 07:28 PM
Also well said Don.

Ickisrulz
08-15-2017, 07:46 PM
A church's doctrine is a formal outline of key beliefs it holds and teaches. This is different from the way day-to-day business is conducted or even the way minor areas of Scripture are interpreted.

Finding a church with doctrine you can live with is different than finding a perfect church or even a group of people you enjoy being around.

jcwit
08-15-2017, 07:54 PM
I am Catholic, and yes I agree with our churches doctrine, however I do not agree with everything the Pope esposes. Much of what he sayes/claims isnot Catholic doctrine.

fatelk
08-15-2017, 09:04 PM
No...Here's why....I refuse to sit through a sermon and I am told what bad person I am.....then the plate comes around. Also I refuse to buy into an organization that almost all of the worlds wars have been fought over. In other words...if religion was so darn peaceful then why are wars fought over them? In a room full men declaring righteousness by any name who is right? It's the guy that could careless and yes that is an empty church as my avatar.

I think you missed the point a little. The question was "Do you agree with the doctrine of the church that you attend"; not "Do you hate organized religion in general".

oldblinddog
08-15-2017, 09:24 PM
UKShootist -- I think that the Islamic situation we are facing is certainly a religious war. It is not at all like the Crusades, Christians vs. Moslems, but rather Moslems vs. Everyone else. But their motivation is their religious beliefs.

It has been muslims against everyone else since their inception. The Crusades were a war of self defense (they morphed into other things later). We went there and attacked them because they would not stop attacking and harrassing Europe. This is history. It is my opinion that there are no moderate muslims.

Der Gebirgsjager
08-15-2017, 09:36 PM
I don't really see any difference in what we're saying here.....I wasn't disputing history, I was talking more so about modern times. However, the Crusades were armies organized under the Christian banner, raised in Europe by the Catholic Pope, so the wars were arguably Christians vs. Moslems no matter who antagonized who. And, I agree that Moslems who adhere to the strict interpretation of their religion can not be moderate.

TES
08-16-2017, 12:10 AM
I think you missed the point a little. The question was "Do you agree with the doctrine of the church that you attend"; not "Do you hate organized religion in general".

A church is / are the people...so I don't think I missed the point. This is going back a few decades but the church I attended kinda brought me to this conclusion. I park my camper every weekend that I can in a valley that is quiet. I even meet like minded people that are really laid back and just want to talk about anything. That is my church. Now as far as a religion is concerned...It's the old Ford vs Chevy argument. I drive my hiking boots.

Char-Gar
08-16-2017, 11:45 AM
I am Catholic, and yes I agree with our churches doctrine, however I do not agree with everything the Pope esposes. Much of what he sayes/claims isnot Catholic doctrine.

No you don't. Since the Vatican Council I (1869-70), the official dogma of the church is the Pope is infallible. So to disagree with the Pope is to disagree with the teachings of your church.

Hogtamer
08-16-2017, 12:25 PM
I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.

Shiloh
08-16-2017, 05:03 PM
Currently attending a non-denominational Christian church. Bible believing, right from the book type of thing.
Not a whole lot to veer from.

SHiloh

Char-Gar
08-16-2017, 05:40 PM
I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.

Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.

Blackwater
08-16-2017, 09:01 PM
Wow! What a question! Personally, I doubt that anyone in any church of any denomination thinks EXACTLY according to every tenet of any particular sect's supposed beliefs. Humans just aren't put together that way. I know for sure that in my own case, I've heard things come from the pulpit that I could NEVER swallow! Admittedly, much of that has come from basically "uneducated" preachers we've had in the "old days." Now, most preachers at least go to some sort of "Bible college" or something, and that has helped, at least a bit.

I've been a member of a Missionary Baptist church for 55 years now, and I've heard a LOT of sermons, and a few of which I've had to gasp at due to some of the things I've heard from the pulpit. I've heard that all Catholics were hell bound, but I knew that to NOT be the case, because some Catholics I knew reflected MUCH more what Christ tried to model for us, and instruct us to do, than many in my own church. You really CAN fool this ol' boy, but you're gonna' have to do a LOT better than that to do it! I've long loved the old joke about a Baptist who goes to Heaven, and he's being shown around, and in each room, the residents are displaying some notable but acceptable form of behavior. Then he comes to the final door, and sees a bunch of folks all gathered in a close cluster, discussing things aloofly, and he asks St. Peter who these people are, and he's told, "Those are our Baptists. They don't know anyone else is up here!"

My Bible says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou SHALT BE SAVED." I see nothing there that indicates any particular sect of Christianity holds any sort of precedence or preference over any other, do you? I suspect we're ALL a bit skewed in our concepts of God and Christ, and thus, it's by Grace, and Grace alone, that we CAN be saved! They say "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades," but I suspect "close" is about as good as it gets for any of us when it comes to truly understanding our Lord and God. And therefore, I have LONG regarded others and other sects as good sources of information from which I might find out why some adhere to that sect rather than others or my own.

We're all pieces of work in the making - unfinished until we draw our last breath. And it's a very long walk, for us it seems, to go from the age of accountability to the moment of our death and keep ALL things Christ and God instructed us to do perfectly. Even after making our profession of faith, however our particular sect makes it and prescribes it be done, and any rituals, like baptism be performed, we do NOT - pretty obviously - instantly become "saints." If anything, we become an even bigger target for Satan's many temptations and lures.

So theology CAN be a great aid to us, OR .... it can be a stumbling block. It can drive stakes between one Christian and another, or it can be discussed sensibly to both's advantage and edification.

If you ask me, there's WAY too much division between the sects, and WAY too much dissension among them, to please a Savior who only wanted us to LOVE each other. "God is love" is NOT just a quaint saying. It's the Truth! And if we love each other, we'll act VERY differently than Christians often act toward each other when discussing denominational matters or differences.

And FWIW, I've learned a LOT from Catholic writers. Much MORE than I have from Baptist writers I've read. I like the way the Catholic church works out their official positions fully and in great depth BEFORE they open their mouths about something. And it must integrate with all other accepted theology for it to gain acceptance. That's a pretty good way to form a church, really, even if some (myself included) disagree with some of their tenets or practices. I can't see praying to anyone other than my Redeemer, directly. But I find most Catholic churches, and in particular the older cathedrals, to be very beautiful and impressive structures that amplify the experience of being there. I also find much of their rituals humbling and reinforcing of the qualities that we need to have reinforced regularly within our souls. I find the confessional a redemptive and humbling thing. They say their priests were given the power to forgive sins here on earth by Christ himself, and can make a pretty good case for that, but .... I don't think it's necessary. I DO however, think it's encouraging of us to not forget our tendency to "overlook" our transgressions.

There's a lot I like in Catholicism, and some aspects of all sects appeal to me as well. But really, I don't think much matters EXCEPT our belief and acceptance of the Lord, and our sincere efforts to keep faith with Him in all things and all people at all times. I don't think any of us DO that, but I think that subsequent forgiveness, upon request and some sort of sign that we're serious, is something we ALL need. Anyone who says that's not true automatically gets my antennae up, and I have to listen hard to them to see what I think their true intent is, and just what axe it is they're grinding.

But that's just me. I reserve the right at any time to change my take on any or all of this for any reason at all that I deem worthy. Belief is, after all's said and done, an INDIVIDUAL matter, between Christ and each of us. And we can make our decision to accept and follow Him, or not. And I believe Christ and God are WAY beyond our simple mortal mind's capacity to understand, and thus, I believe we all fail to completely and truly perceive Him and His will perfectly. But we CAN be persistent and honorable in our efforts, and humble when we err. If anything, THAT is the REAL mark of a Christian, I think. One who genuinely loves Christ MUST be persistent, because only in persistence do we really have much hope of understanding Him to the maximum level of our personal abilities. And we must also be honorable in our intent, and not devious in any way. Elsewise, we're trying to "trick" the one entity in all that is, that CANNOT be tricked!

Denominational differences DO exist, BUT ... and this is KEY .... they need not separate one Christian from another, and OUGHT, if fairly considered, be a source of further edification of both parties. My experience is that I've come to understand things as time has progressed, in a different way than I had previously. This is called "growth," and if we're not growing in Christ, we must be diminishing and limiting our own selves, because there's no such thing as "standing still."

That's my take on it all, anyway. YMMV, and likely does, too. But that's OK by me. Each of us must find our OWN way, and our own style of worship. And closing our minds is the LAST thing Christ would have ANY of us do! So I just try to keep my mind open, make my assessments as seems most indicated to me, and stay open for further change, should it appear warranted. Meanwhile, I just try to walk the walk God wants me to walk. Tending to THAT tends to keep me a lot "straighter" than I'd otherwise likely wind up being!

Wayne Smith
08-17-2017, 11:18 AM
There are fundamental issues to consider. The question of authority, for example. Catholism accepts three equal authorities: Scripture, the infallable pronunciations of the Pope, and Church History. The Reformed cry of "Sola Scruptura" or Only Scripture is a fundamental change. The 'infallable' prouncinations of the Pope have been reversed on at least one occasion, not infallable. Church History includes the selling of indulgences, the selling of the papacy for a roomfull of gold, and giving a woman the power of the Pope. Sorry, I can't accept those as correct.

We have recently, in the last three years, moved from basically a lifetime as Baptists to a Presbertian Church and have been in a class studying the Westminister Confession for the past months. I have found nothing I would argue with there - I am a Reformed believer.

Blackwater
08-17-2017, 02:34 PM
One other thing about the various denominations and whether we believe the tenets of each of them EXACTLY as stated, is simply that we're all Christians in some stage of development. Not one of us is fully realized, yet, and probably can't be until after we shed these frail bodies we now wear. People at various stages of belief, and who come from different sets of experience and teachings, must inevitably, it seems, latch onto differing priorities within the Christian faith, and thus, we get the multiple denominations or sects of Christianity.

The only real problem with this, is that if we settle into believing that our particular sect holds all the knowledge and wisdom available within Christianity, we're just fooling ourselves, and thinking what we WANT to think, rather than what the bona fide evidence tends to lead us to conclude. Being a Christian is a life-long process of continuing development, I think, and I've seen nobody I can recall who wasn't still developing. True, some attain a level where they're learning mostly by refining what they have come to believe, but none of us is immune from an occasional epiphany of significant proportions. And I for one thank Almighty God for that! He's been SO very good to me, even when I wasn't all that good to or for my own self! Blessed be His holy name forever!

jcwit
08-18-2017, 11:07 AM
I *think* the Pope is held to be infallible in matters of faith and the church, not opinions and comments regarding secular affairs; the political virtues of socialism for instance.

This is correct, Char-Gar is wrong!

jcwit
08-18-2017, 11:11 AM
Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.

Like your Sig Line says, "your opinion"!

Hogtamer
08-18-2017, 12:11 PM
Char-gar, I guess my ideas of secular are the Pope's remarks about the hypocrisy of Christians who invest in or manufacture guns. Not a matter of faith apparently as he is protected by armed guards. His views about climate change and economic issues align more with leftist ideology than scriptural exegesis. But your points is well taken.

cainttype
08-18-2017, 01:28 PM
Papal infallibility, referenced earlier, is actually a very rare circumstance that is encountered. The restrictions imposed on it's actual use preclude any idea that it is some sort of everyday action or decree that dictates changes and beliefs from the sitting Pope.
If anyone is actually interested in learning more about "Papal Infallability" there is a pretty good treatise on it here.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

I do not agree completely with any preacher, minister, priest, or philosopher that I've ever encountered, but that doesn't prevent learning something occasionally from each other... maybe even challenging certain ideas with simple truths... All in all, we can probably all learn something if we keep an open mind.

Ickisrulz
08-18-2017, 02:22 PM
From the article linked to above:

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."


It would seem to me many of the things the current Pope has commented on would fall under the category of moral proclamation. Such as "People who manufacture weapons or invest in weapons industries are hypocrites if they call themselves Christian."

cainttype
08-18-2017, 02:45 PM
That would have nothing to do with Papal Infallability.
The Pope's personal opinions are separate from "infallability", which is clearly described if you read the entire text included in the provided link. The criteria required for recognized authority is actually very restrictive... which might explain why the "Infallability" doctrine can't be cited more than once in several hundred years.

Cherry-picking historical documents, or research papers, is very similar to cherry-picking Biblical texts, in that it often leads to completey false assumptions and conclusions that are totally wrong.

Ickisrulz
08-18-2017, 05:14 PM
Cherry-picking historical documents, or research papers, is very similar to cherry-picking Biblical texts, in that it often leads to completey false assumptions and conclusions that are totally wrong.

You got me there. I didn't read the whole article. It seems like a very complicated idea.

Shiloh
08-19-2017, 09:47 AM
Please draw me a line between matter of faith and social opinions. Tell me which issues fall on which side of the line. It greed a matter of faith or social issues. Is abortion a matter of faith or a social issue. Is feeding the poor a matter of faith or a social issues. Is clothing the naked a matter of faith or a social issue, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.

They both faith and social issues.
That being said, the Pope is not my boss or intercessor to Jesus Christ. The pope is a man and fallible. Look at the politics, manipulation, and intrigue that surrounds the election of a Pope. All secular and worldly.

Shiloh

cainttype
08-19-2017, 02:21 PM
...the Pope is not my boss or intercessor to Jesus Christ. The pope is a man and fallible....

If you have ever prayed for anyone (loved ones, family, friends, peace for mankind's benefit...) you have attempted to intercede for others with prayer.
If you believe that your prayers were ever heard, you believe that you were indeed an "intercesser".
If you've ever asked for prayers from anyone for yourself, or anyone else, you have asked for "prayers of intercession".
Whether any of those prayers were ever answered the way you might have hoped has nothing to do with whether or not you accept the idea of "intercession".

Every person I've ever met proclaiming to be religious has offered and asked for these sort of prayers, and therefore practice and accept "intercession" from others as a basic part of their belief system, whether they will admit it or not.
These are simple truths that many claim they don't accept, yet they pray for others and thank those that pray for them.
The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
It's not complicated.

Thundarstick
08-19-2017, 09:45 PM
The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
It's not complicated.

I ask in humility. Then why have a Pope?

cainttype
08-19-2017, 10:15 PM
The Pope is no different than these people anytime he offers prayer for things as simple as peace or humanity, good will or compassion...
It's not complicated.

I ask in humility. Then why have a Pope?

Why have a pastor, a bishop, priests, or elders?
Why have a President or Prime Minister?
The Pope is the leader of the Catholic Church, chosen by the "elders" of that religion to be their leader... I see similarities in every organization or religion, it's only that some limit themselves to smaller arenas.
The Pope exists because the people he leads for his brief time as the head of that religion WANT a structured organization... Without the structure Catholics maintain, their religion would become fractured and offshoots would branch off proclaiming their own superior knowledge and understanding... Catholics maintain unity with their system, and anyone is free to leave.

There are other religious people sharing the same texts that have split into dozens of separate denominations, hundreds if you count tiny independents... Is that better?
Possibly so, but each decision should be a personal choice respected by others.
I believe if many "Christians" understood each other as well as they would like to think they do, a lot of commonly encountered discussions would disappear to the waste bin of history.

Thundarstick
08-20-2017, 05:39 AM
Thank you for your explanation.

I guess you'd have to put me into one of those groups that believe congregations should be autonomous from one another. Being from the buckle of the Bible belt I guess I take it for granted the choices I have. There is an assembly on every other country road and every third block in town!

cainttype
08-20-2017, 08:38 AM
You're welcome.
I guess I should make clear that I am not a practicing Catholic, and do not claim to belong to any particular established religion. I believe ALL religion promoting peace, charity, harmony, and Love are good things... Now, if only we could get more people to follow those teachings! :)

I think questioning "knowns" is a good thing, some would disagree... and many have.
I don't think I need anyone to enlighten me, believing enlightenment is within each of us.
I come to what some might consider odd conclusions occasionally, but at least I'm interested enough to put in the effort to try to understand things that confuse me... and am occasionally successful.
I have yet to meet any preacher, or find any church, that I agree completely with the things I hear from them... but I'm willing to listen at times... less now than 40 years ago, but still trying. ;)
That was the original question, "fully agree".

Blackwater
08-20-2017, 07:00 PM
FWIW, if anything, I think the Catholic doctrine of the Pope's unerring judgment is as much if not more of a matter of "Somebody's GOT to make a decision," and the simple fact that faith, REAL faith, CANNOT be a mass of indecision. It MUST be clearly delineated and stated, even if it has to be "corrected" or "clarified" at a later date. That's not what "infalibility" means in the dictionary, but like most human communication using words, the INTENT is sometimes overshadowed by the limitations of a word's "natural" content, and maybe most especially when it comes to the words we use in TRYING to relate matters of Faith.

So I for one, give the Catholic church a pass on that one. And if we spent NEARLY as much time trying to understand each other, as we do in finding things to divide us, we'd be a REAL force to be reckoned with! I've heard all sorts of things about the Catholic church, none of which stand up to real scrutiny, and maybe at least a good portion of it BECAUSE of exactly what this thread's title says. It's about "doctrine," and much of our own doctrines, no matter what sect we adhere to, cannot be effectively put forth in simple words. It's the meaning BEHIND the words that is so easily missed by so many who read them, often with the specific INTENT to criticize a fellow believer's thoughts or practice.

I personally, see this as a BIG mistake, and one that all of us have probably made at some time or another. I know I have! When reading about another's faith, we need to, but find it VERY difficult to actually DO, ask some questions when we encounter an element or statement of doctrine in another sect's Faith. If we did that, instead of going off half-cocked, and proclaiming that WE KNOW what words mean .... well, it'd probably change Christianity and make us once again a VERY powerful force, instead of the wimpy, divided and sometimes even pompous lot that we've become today! And if that offends anyone, please know that I'm "chief among sinners" here, and it's more of a confession than an accusation! So make whatever you want of my words. The meaning BEHIND them is as pure as the purest gold, I assure you. Christ bids us to confess our sins and errors. It's the world around us and PC philosophy that bids us stand above and beyond those around us!

PC has indeed crept into many, Many, MANY folks' theology, and they don't even know it! God help us! We are VERY inept at helping ourselves! Which is why He came down from Heaven to die on a cross and shed his precious and perfect blood as an atonement for our collective and individual sins! I'm a sinner, saved by grace, and if I can't allow a fellow believer a dissension or two when it comes to doctrinal definitions ..... well, then I don't believe I've really "heard" the words Christ left us to live and go by. And that, my friends, would diminish me greatly, and I've done quite enough of that myself in the past, thank you! From here on out, I'll accept any professing Christian as a believer, and leave the rest between them and our Lord. If they believe it, they MAY change their mind, and if they don't, at least they're on OUR side! And that covers a LOT of "sins" in my book!

Sectarian battles and tiffs are about as "Christian" as peeing in church, IMO! We were once a "live and let live" nation, at least generally. Our "modern" world seems to demand, along with PC philosophy, that EVERYTHING be standardized, and outlined, and clearly stated in the simplest words possible. Yet even a "blind man" can see that this inevitably obscures MUCH of ANY real faith or religion!!!

As Shakespeare said, "What fools these mortals be," and again, I'm "chief among sinners here, so if you're offended by that, just think how I feel!!!

cainttype
08-20-2017, 09:36 PM
Questioning someone's interpretation of a biblical/religious/historical text is not the same as questioning the text.
Interest and intelligence would demand questions if someone provided an explanation that differed from what you clearly understood... It's the price you pay for using the brain God gave you.

Perhaps it's those that don't have questions that are missing the simple things that are boldly stated... obscured by tradition and things that just "sound good".
Questions lead to understanding, understanding leads to knowledge, knowledge leads to acceptance... hopefully.

cainttype
08-20-2017, 10:44 PM
Without questions, there is no knowledge... No reason to open any book.
Without "Grey" matter, there is no "Black and White"... How would you know the difference?

Every person seeking knowledge has questions.
When questions cease to exist, enlightenment and learning will die with them.

wv109323
08-20-2017, 11:20 PM
The Bible was not in the common mans hands until about 1500- 1600 AD. Since that time there has been an explosion of church "rules",denominations, and doctrines. I conclude that most is man made based on ignorance, prejudice,power and tradition. Men and churches get hung up on a lot of non-essentials for salvation. When there is a dispute, I research the subject and come to my own conclusion based on the scripture. If someone wants to hear my conclusion then I will share what my understanding is. I can not take an absolute position( except on some of the basics) because I am a man and fallible. I can not always be right. When in doubt read and pray.

cainttype
08-21-2017, 12:05 AM
That is historically incorrect... The Pharisees were actually a middle-class group that were popular with the common people. The Sadducees were the wealthy, well-educated upper class that held the main power in Jewish society... There were many others that could read, and many languages with well-established literature (Greek, Latin, Aramaic, etc...).

I guess a simple "question" that might arise would be, "If only the Pharisees could read, who wrote the texts they read from?".
That's the good, and bad, of questions... They may lead you to knowledge, but they may destroy misconceptions you are comfortable with.

cainttype
08-21-2017, 12:40 AM
This is quite true. For a considerable time, the Pharisees were the only group who were able to read, and thereby interpretate scripture.

This is, again, simply incorrect.
Pointing out a simple mistake on your part has nothing to do with questioning "the entire Old Testament".
Questioning the conclusions drawn by others is far from questioning the text they might be attempting to explain.
I'm more than happy to carry on seeking answers, while others can comfortably retire knowing everything that matters to them.

Blackwater
08-23-2017, 08:11 PM
Caintype, you're right, but the Saducees and Pharisees had nothing to do with writing the Bible. The Bible seems to have been constructed from collections of letters and manuscripts in about 300 A. D., IIRC, and the Saducees had nothing to do with it. The common man, for the first 1500 years of Christianity's existence, had to be TOLD what was written, and what it meant. And yes, any time man's hands get into the mix, there's going to be problems. But amazingly, the Bible as we know it seems to have been VERY largely verified by some of the oldest texts we have available to us now. What an amazing book! It's survived 20 centuries virtually intact! Yes, there are still questions/arguments about how a few words are interpreted, but ..... gee golly wow! What a record of being virtually unchanged for 2,000 years!!!! If that's not amazing, what could be?

And you're right about questioning, too. It's just sad when we see so many letting questions lead to argument and vehement disagreements and dissension. But that'a man's hand in it all, NOT God's! God never has and never will change. We, on the other hand, seem to change our minds at the least sign of a wind blowing in another direction!

The more I learn about the Bible, and the meaning behind its words, the more humbled I am, and the less I tend to want to argue points. Discuss, yes. Question, yes. But not really argue them. Arguing has become governed by PC theology today, that says that arguing and not just accepting what one says is "disrespectful." But nothing could be further from the truth! Arguing with another is an act of faith and trust in THEM! Not all our faith and trust is well placed, it seems, but that's because of US, and NEVER due to any lacking in God, Christ or the words they left us to live by. It's SO very human to argue. It's so very GOOD to discuss and question! Modern philosophies seem to discourage all discussion and questioning of others' theologies and theological ideas and interpretations. And we are ALL so VERY much the poorer for that! Good discussion CAN be the best of ways for us to further our edification about God's words, IF only we'll simply allow it to be. That's my take on it all, anyway. YMMV?

cainttype
08-23-2017, 10:31 PM
Blackwater, several posts have been removed between what is now shown as posts #51-#56. Each post shown now was a reply to those missing posts addressing specific points.
The "Pharisees" issue was brought up by someone else, and had nothing to do with The New Testament.

Now, to address your post...
1) The Bible was hand-copied "because" the printing press had not been invented until The Gutenberg Bible began the age of mass production printing of Bibles.

2) The hand-copied Bibles were written in Latin "because" Latin was the ONLY universal language at that time (similar to English today) and if you wanted to SHARE the text with the most people possible, Latin was the only way to do it (think Roman Empire here).
Latin is also a very accurate, concise language... That's why it still dominates scientific studies like biology and medicine in every format.

3) Using things like The Dead Sea Scrolls (which by the way, were not written by the Pharisees [the only people that could read, remember???]) to verify the accuracy of texts in your current Bible "prove" the accuracy of the Latin it was witten in for over a thousand years... It also destroys the lie that someone was trying to "hide" anything.

These are simple truths, although many have been taught (and accepted) a very different point of view, that are obvious when considered on their merits.

Again, I'm in favor of all religions promoting peace, compassion, and Love for humanity (and the rest of God's creations).

Blackwater
08-25-2017, 06:07 PM
Thanks, Caintype. I never look at the post numbers, so missed that. It's SO good to be here where even mistakes are lovingly corrected .... at least usually. Human frailties will always be the biggest factor in our fight to learn from each other, I believe. And we all seem to have them. I do in abundance sometimes!

Down South
09-24-2017, 12:40 PM
I do indeed, I will offer my opinions on your questions, you can accept them, or reject them as you chose, without discussion.

1. The Holy Spirit manifestation of Pentecost was indeed a different matter, The confusion, if there is any comes from the mistaken notion of being born again, as opposed to being born from above. A short summation, when our fathers sperm enters our mothers egg and a new creature is formed, our spirit is sent by God from heaven to reside in that creature, hence, we are born from above. All, must be born from above to be born of the flesh to die once. The exceptions would be the angels of Jude 1:6 who decided to thumb their noses at God and earned a death sentence for refusing to stay in their first estate.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2.The final end of those who refuse to believe, is indeed complete annihilation, the punishment being eternal, the punishing being swift and final. Rev. 20 will cover it pretty well, and one must understand "Blotted out" and what it means, totally erased from time, for and aft, as though it never existed. So when one is blotted out from the book of life, they cease to be, they cease to have been, there is no memory of them to cause pain and suffering to those who remain. Rev 21:4

3.In short, If God forgives our trespasses, and makes us new again, and remembers the sin no more, why do people think they are somehow better than God and refuse to forgive the divorcee and let them move on with their lives. Perhaps hypocrisy, perhaps ignorance, perhaps the inability to throw out the old leaven and move into the light.
I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church, then Indepentant Baptist, then AG.
I agree with you about divorced people not being able to hold office in the AG church.
I believe the scripture that they took that from, be the husband of but one wife means that he shouldn't have two or more wives which was a common practice in that day. I don't believe it is in reference to divorce.

I believe born again is a separate experience from receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I'll leave out scripture and relay personal experience.
I was Saved, Born Again a number of years before I recieved the Holy Spirit. And I was Southern Baptist at the time.
It took me digging into the Word and trusting in God to change my mind from my Southern Baptist teaching. BTW, I never went to a Pentecostal Church before I baptized in the Holy Spirit. I recieved that gift while about 100 miles offshore praying alone in my room one evening.

There are many things that I disagree with concerning some of the main line denominations.
AG is the closest as far as main line to what I believe the Bible teaches.
I have found some non denomination churches that are closer.

Big Boomer
11-22-2017, 11:22 AM
For the past almost 60 years the study of Christianity has dominated my life. I am a retired Minister with Churches of Christ/Christian churches. There are upwards of 42,000 different denominations of Protestantism and Catholicism, splinter groups from the various major denominations. In I Corinthians 1:10 the Apostle Paul exhorted the followers of Jesus Christ at Corinth to "have the same mind and to speak the same thing." If we fail to saturate our minds with the Word of God, only one thing can happen: We are not going to be of the same mind (I. e., thinking the same way), nor will we be speaking the same thing (teaching the same doctrine). Shiloh said it well. If you want the straight stuff, just the Word of God, find the nearest Church of Christ/Christian Church (not Disciples of Christ). These folk are doing their best to restore New Testament Christianity by speaking only where the Bible speaks, being silent where the Bible is silent. In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty (your opinion is just as good as mine); in all things charity or love. That sounds like the right way to go. In John 17 Jesus prayed that His followers would be ONE in order that the world might be WON to Him. The only way we can answer Jesus' prayer is to be united on the Bible as our sole source of authority. If we are willing to do that, the 42,000 denominations will disappear and as a united, powerful entity we will be able to sway the world for Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the status quo will continue and only worsen as it has over the past few centuries. It is our choice. It is not my intention to knock anyone around verbally, but at some point we must decide what is our final authority. If that authority is not the Bible, than anything goes and division rules. Big Boomer

popper
01-12-2018, 04:39 PM
I don't believe a divorced person is ineligible for a church leadership role.
Paul stated it was 'best' for disciples to NOT be married, but several were. Scripture states to have 'one' wife. Divorce was given to fight against polygamy. There are a few denominations that DON'T teach doctrine that is contrary to scripture. It's getting worse. That is the 'corrupt' church, just like the synagogue in Jesus time.

texasnative46
01-12-2018, 09:35 PM
Ickisrulz,

I'm a Southern Baptist & our denomination has NO doctrine.

We are a LOOSE conglomeration of Protestant local churches, that are as different as chalk & cheese.

Some congregations are VERY liberal & some are VERY conservative religiously/politically.
(Until I started losing my hearing & could no longer "carry a tune in a tow-sack" , I used to sing at many SBC churches in AR, LA, MS, OK, TN & TX. NO two congregations seemed to be alike.)

yours, tex

Sailormilan2
01-14-2018, 04:38 PM
I was raised Seventh Day Adventist. My mother converted when I was 1, and I'm almost 68 now. I no longer believe in many, if not most, of their doctrines. Not since I started looking everything up for myself.
The SDA Church has an extra Biblical source that they use. I was always taught that it was used in addition to the Bible. Nowdays, many want to use those writings in place of the Bible, or above the Bible.
I'm no longer convinced on the Biblical soundness if the author's writings, which usually gets me in trouble in the church when I use the Bible, and only the Bible, as my source.

Char-Gar
01-15-2018, 02:20 PM
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty (your opinion is just as good as mine); in all things charity or love. Big Boomer

I was wondering if you realize that is a quote from John Wesley sermon entitled "Catholic Spirit"?

Char-Gar
01-15-2018, 02:29 PM
Shortly after I became a Christian and headed off to Seminary a wise mature Christian told me "Always remember, my younger brother that theology is not God. It is just man talking about God!".

Forty seven years later, I still remember what he said and all my experience has proven him to be correct. Most theology falls into thee categories, 1) The musings of idle minds, 2) A form of arrogance that causes people to think they can actually organize God, 3) Attempts to control people with chains of 1 and 2 above.

Traffer
01-15-2018, 03:04 PM
For the past almost 60 years the study of Christianity has dominated my life. I am a retired Minister with Churches of Christ/Christian churches. There are upwards of 42,000 different denominations of Protestantism and Catholicism, splinter groups from the various major denominations. In I Corinthians 1:10 the Apostle Paul exhorted the followers of Jesus Christ at Corinth to "have the same mind and to speak the same thing." If we fail to saturate our minds with the Word of God, only one thing can happen: We are not going to be of the same mind (I. e., thinking the same way), nor will we be speaking the same thing (teaching the same doctrine). Shiloh said it well. If you want the straight stuff, just the Word of God, find the nearest Church of Christ/Christian Church (not Disciples of Christ). These folk are doing their best to restore New Testament Christianity by speaking only where the Bible speaks, being silent where the Bible is silent. In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty (your opinion is just as good as mine); in all things charity or love. That sounds like the right way to go. In John 17 Jesus prayed that His followers would be ONE in order that the world might be WON to Him. The only way we can answer Jesus' prayer is to be united on the Bible as our sole source of authority. If we are willing to do that, the 42,000 denominations will disappear and as a united, powerful entity we will be able to sway the world for Jesus Christ. Otherwise, the status quo will continue and only worsen as it has over the past few centuries. It is our choice. It is not my intention to knock anyone around verbally, but at some point we must decide what is our final authority. If that authority is not the Bible, than anything goes and division rules. Big Boomer

Hear Hear!

Lloyd Smale
01-17-2018, 07:45 AM
I doubt anyone other then a brain washed cult member believes EVERYTHING the church he attends stands without question. I think God gave me a brain to question. I think myself like many here attend the church the grew up with or the church that most closely follows there beliefs.

NoAngel
01-17-2018, 09:26 AM
Lloyd is right. You’d have to be pretty blind to buy the whole farm.
ALL religion has SOMETHING wrong. That’s why the Bible says you’re saved by grace.

It’s all just a guess and a feeling that a clean conscience guides you to.
I mean no one has heard (physically) a word from the man in thousands of years.
Moses had a clear idea of what God wanted. The rest of humanity take a lot on faith.

Rafe Covington
02-23-2018, 02:12 AM
I started going to church again about two years ago, went to a non denominational church. I left that church because it turned extremely liberal when they hired a new pastor. I was raised southern baptist. I have gone back to the baptist church, at 70 years of age will stay there until the end. JMHO

Rafe