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Kev18
08-12-2017, 11:50 PM
I have had a Winchester 1886 in 40-82 for about 3 years now. I have a large supply of ammo for it. I dont qualify myself as a sharpshooter, but I sure can shoot pretty well. Whenever I tried hitting a target with the 1886, I would always seem to miss or have some crazy flyers. So I started doing some research and someone suggested that I slugged my barrel. So I did. It has a .408 -.410 diameter bore. The problem is that all my ammo is .406 diameter. I was wondering if there was anyways to make the bullets expand in the bore upon firing? Im new to reloading and I have been told this is the site to ask for help. :)

Yesterday I shot quite alot of ammo, and noticed that when I lubed up the rounds with some of Lee's cast bullet lube, it did pretty well on the groupings. I also did a batch with lube, and drilled out the base of the bullet with a common hand drill. that also seemed to help, I kinda made homemade hollow base rounds.

Any help would be super appreciated. Thanks!

TNsailorman
08-13-2017, 09:50 AM
You could open up your mold to say .410 or .411. But before you do that, do a chamber, throat and about 2 to 3" of the bore cerro safe cast to find out the correct diameters. I did this on one of my old rolling blocks that was giving me problems and it worked out great for me. I like to go as fat as the chamber and throat will allow. my experience anyway. james

KCSO
08-13-2017, 11:33 AM
Darn near pure soft lead and black powder will be the best cure if the chamber is the right size. We had this problem with a friends 86 the chamber was tight and the bore loose. The soft bullet expanded enough to give fair to good accuracy at 100 yards 4 inches or so with peep sights.

Kev18
08-13-2017, 11:47 AM
You could open up your mold to say .410 or .411. But before you do that, do a chamber, throat and about 2 to 3" of the bore cerro safe cast to find out the correct diameters. I did this on one of my old rolling blocks that was giving me problems and it worked out great for me. I like to go as fat as the chamber and throat will allow. my experience anyway. james



What do you mean by opening up the mold? I cast my bullets in a 40-82 Ideal reloading tool. Im new to reloading. I use lead pipes for my source of lead. I dont mix the lead with anything else.

Kev18
08-13-2017, 11:50 AM
Darn near pure soft lead and black powder will be the best cure if the chamber is the right size. We had this problem with a friends 86 the chamber was tight and the bore loose. The soft bullet expanded enough to give fair to good accuracy at 100 yards 4 inches or so with peep sights.

I think I have this problem to. Some of the cartridges are super hard to chamber, the bolt closes all the way leaving about a quarter inch before locking in place. I hit it shut and rip the lever open to eject them. And i do use pure lead for my bullets. I use old lead piping.

KCSO
08-13-2017, 01:59 PM
You will probably need to size your bullets down a little more. I have a Sharps that won't chamber the trapdoor rounds I had made up with 462 bullets. If I size to 458 they chamber just fine in the Sharps. We sweated and groaned on the 86 40-82 and never really got as good of a group out of it as we did from my 45-70. Pure lead will work but I find that I get a better bullet by adding just a little tin, it doesn't make the bullet much harder either. I have never figured why smokless won't do as good a job of bumping up the bullets either.

Ballistics in Scotland
08-15-2017, 05:11 AM
Not many lead pipes are hardened, so they are likely to be close to pure lead, softer than most bullets. Some people use lead hardness testers, but you can get a pretty useful idea by compressing a ball bearing between a piece of your alloy and a piece of something else.

I am sure near-pure lead bullets would expand quite satisfactorily. More so, in fact, than you really need, and it might produce leading. Unless your loads are very light, it might produce leading, irregular slumping of the nose, etc. Not many lead pipes are hardened, so they are likely to be close to pure lead, softer than most bullets. Some people use lead hardness testers, but you can get a pretty useful comparative indicator by crushing a ball bearing between a piece of your alloy and a piece of something else, with a weight or vice, imposing equal pressure on both. The softer the alloy, the wider the dent in it.

The alloy most commonly used with these rifles was Lyman #2 (no longer a Lyman product), which was 5% by weight of tin, 5% antimony and 90% lead. It will also take the shape of the mould,especially at edges, better than pure lead. While wheelweights and solders do vary, you can get something very like it by combining:

5½ parts by weight wheelweights,
3½ parts lead
1 part 50-50 bar solder

Regardless of the alloy used, tight chambering at neck, especially if it is inconsistent, is a serious fault. It affects the burning rate of the powder. The bullet could be sized, or the case necks could be reamed or turned to consistent thickness. It is also possible that crimping the case-neck is producing a slight bulge. The .40-82 should have some kind of crimp to stop cartridges from telescoping in the magazine under recoil. But you could single-load enough without crimp to find out if this is the culprit, and if it is, replace the crimp with a cannelure behind the bullet.

It is a long time since I shot my .40-82 Winchester 1886, but I got something like those 4in. groups with moderate loads of Reloder 7. Other points to watch out for are anything causing irregular contact of magazine and forend, or cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. These are rifles which needed cleaning in the black powder days, and didn't always get the bolt removed to do it. You may also get some improvement with a wax cookie between two card discs, behind the bullet. You can produce the right wax or lube sheet by melting some on top of hot water, and letting it go cold.

Finally, is your reloading tool actually stamped ".40-82"? The .40-70WCF, although several cartridge reference books copy the wrong measurements from one to another, virtually is a heavy-bullet .40-82, and the actual .40-82 version of the 1886 Winchester, with a 26in. rifling twist, can only function with bullets up to about 260gr. I have no knowledge that Winchester did what they did with the .45-90: producing a heavy-bullet .45-90 for single shots without change of name, so that they had to increanse the rifling twist in the lever-action 1886 after too many people said "My gun don't shoot." But they might have, or Lyman might have labelled a heavier-bullet mould ".40-82".

ascast
08-16-2017, 09:36 PM
Lots of good advice here. I would add a couple thoughts- beg or buy some correct bullits before altering anything, like your mold, or cases. If you do the cerro casting, try casting the first 2-3 inches of the muzzel. Front cleaners can get badly worn up there and no matter what you do on the back end they don't shoot right.

Kev18
08-18-2017, 05:59 PM
My tool is indeed stamped 40-82 pat. 1884. Do you think my bullets don't expand because I use light loads? I only use 13.5 grains of trail boss. Could you please share some of your loads ? Perhaps something powerful enough to make the bullets expand. I read somewhere that in the later years Winchester made factory ammo in smokeless. Thanks!

hpbear101
08-18-2017, 07:23 PM
I have the loading tools in 44-40 and 40-82 and both cast undersized bullets. My "guess" is they were intended to be shot with BP and cast of a very soft alloy. I have one box of early 45-70 and IIRC it states the bullets were cast 16:1 Lead:Tin. Most commercial bullets for BP cartridges are cast 20:1.

Buffalo Arms Co. sells cast 20:1 lead bullets lubed with SPG (so you could shoot BP or smokeless), I would recommend giving them a try before you make any alterations to equipment. I've included a link to the page in your diameter range.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets/cast-bullets?p=2

Tom

Kev18
08-18-2017, 11:39 PM
Hi, thanks for the link. But sadly I bought nearly over 100 rounds from them. And they still had poor accuracy. Il try loadin up pure lead with bp whenever I can get my hands on some . For now I only have trail boss.

big bore 99
08-18-2017, 11:55 PM
Black will bump them up better than smokeless. I'd try sizing them down a bit and paperpatch them up to whatever you want.

w30wcf
08-19-2017, 08:20 AM
Kev18,
Sorry to learn of your troubles with your vintage .40-82.
You mentioned
"Some of the cartridges are super hard to chamber, the bolt closes all the way leaving about a quarter inch before locking in place. I hit it shut and rip the lever open to eject them. And i do use pure lead for my bullets. I use old lead piping."

What brass are you using? Sounds like there could be a variation in the neck wall thickness(?) if the bullets are the same diameter and the cases have been FLS. If so, it would be best to set aside those cases that are hard to chamber.

You could try increasing the powder charge to 16.5 grs. which would still be plenty safe. If there is room in the neck to hold a 1/16" wad under the bullet, that should help improve accuracy by acting as a gas check.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/40-caliber-rifle-060-vegetable-fiber-walter-wads-bag-of-1000-wal412060

About 10 years ago a friend had an 1876 Winchester in 45-60 that would scatter bullets all over the paper. We added 1 wad under the base of the bullet and there was a noted improvement in accuracy. Since it was a straight walled case, we then tried adding 2 wads under the base of the bullet which further improved accuracy (1 1/2" @ 50 yards). without the wads, accuracy was 10"+ at 50 yards!

Historically speaking, original ballistics were 1,445 f.p.s. Smokeless came along in the late 1890's.
In the book, Winchester Lever Legacy, the author used 29/4198 with a toilet paper wad to replicate the original ballistics.
Also, 82 grs. of FFG powder.

w30wcf

Kev18
08-19-2017, 10:14 AM
I'm using the brass from buffalo arms and some from Gad customs. When I got the rounds from them they chambered fine. Even if I use the sizing slot on my reloading tool, they are still hard to chamber.
And il try using wads like you say. I'm at the cottage right now for the weekend so I'm shooting as I'm reading your posts. I'm trying everything I can. It's making it abit difficult to measure powder tho, since I left my damn scale at home! Il try adding toilet paper maybe... like you said. Hopefully it will act as a makeshift wad.

Kev18
08-19-2017, 06:01 PM
I was shooting earlier and I used toilet paper wads. I'm not to sure what I was doing, so I filled up most of the empty space in the case with tp. My accuracy improved. Also I think I found my problem why the cases are so hard to chamber. About half an inch at the bottom of the cartridge seems to have expanded to much. I'm pretty sure il need to purchase a resizing die for the cases themselves.
Also the cases that I have been using so far have been doing good, except for two that the necks blew off for some reason.

w30wcf
08-19-2017, 09:04 PM
Kev18,
I am sorry that I wasn't more specific regarding the toilet paper over powder wad. Cut a 1" square and fold it one way then the other. More than that should not be used AND ONLY with slower burning powders like 4198. The author used it to hold 4198 to the back of the case so that it would give more of a consistent burn.

Trail Boss is much faster burning and no over powder wad should be used! That is likely the reason for the neck problem and possibly the excess case expansion.

If the case expansion happened with the factory ammo (was it black or smokeless) the cases should have sprung back unless the brass does not have good properties in which case, as you indicted, a proper sized die would be needed.

w30wcf

Kev18
08-20-2017, 10:19 AM
Thanks for all the info. The cases expanded with the smokeless powder . I originally bought cases from buffalo arms, fired those. And reloaded them again. Fired them with smokeless powder and now they are to tight but now I have a 136$ hole in my pocket because I ordered the full set of dies yesterday off of buffalo arms.

Also, do you think it would be good to add some type of better quality wad instead of toilet paper? Like cork ? I went to a flee market yesterday and I purchased a hole punch that fits the cartridge perfectly. It's just that I'm not sure if the wad material matters ?

Thanks a lot!

w30wcf
08-20-2017, 09:00 PM
Kev18,
having a good set of dies is certainly a step in the right direction. The 1" square of toilet paper is only to be used as an over powder wad for slower burning powders. Please do not use with Trial Boss which is very fast burning.

A solid wad should only be used under the base of the bullet. Since the 40-82 is not a straight walled cartridge, care must be given to make sure that the wad stays in contact with the bullet and does not fall into the case. Hopefully there is enough room in the neck to hold the wad in place under the bullet.

I have not worked with cork but perhaps it would be strong enough to work as a gas check with smokeless. The experience I referenced was with .06" Polyethylene.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/2-sq-ft-060-white-bulk-poly-wad-material-060poly

If the gas can be contained behind the undersized bullet, it will transverse the barrel undisturbed by the powder gases and give accurate shooting. At least that has been my experience.

Of course there is BP which will bump up the undersized bullet to fill the bore.

w30wcf

kjorgy
08-21-2017, 07:59 AM
I have a Marlin 1895 chambered in 40-82. My load is 28 grains of IMR 4198 & a 280 grain bullet with a gas check sized to .408. My recommendation is slug your bore & determine what size bullets to use. I had the same problem you had the rounds chambering hard only in a 40-70 Winchester which is very similar to a 40-82. I talked to some people & tried a taper crimp die from Lyman & that solved my problem. With a taper crimp all cases should be the same length.

Cheshire Dave
08-21-2017, 12:50 PM
I recently read an article about Unique powder and the author had good luck using it in a 40-82 because it bumped up the bullet diameter like black powder does. I have had good luck with Unique with most light cast loads. Worth a shot.

WARD O
08-23-2017, 02:14 PM
I shoot a HiWall in 40-82 and ran into a similar problem. Gun was originally intended for black powder and relied on the obturation to get the bullet to fill the bore. In my rifle, if I use a bullet that matches the bore, there is too little room in the neck for normal brass thickness. I turned some necks with a forester tool and shoot bullets close to bore size. Black powder still is best though.... with real black powder and soft lead bullets it will shoot 3" or so at 100 yards.

Kev18
08-24-2017, 12:49 PM
Il see about the crimp die. Il need to do some testing. Since I dont have a case resizer, it seems like my cases expand about 1/2 an inch at the bottom causing the bolt to stay open quite alot. If I just take a case that has been only fired once with blackpowder it slides in no issue, but if i takea case that has been fired with the BP and then my load of trailboss... it doesn't fit. So thats why I ordered the full set of dies off of Buffalo arms. I just spoke to them today, it shipped the 21st so hopefully il get it soon.

Kev18
08-26-2017, 08:54 PM
Hi, as I said I ordered some dies, but I was thinking and all my ammo that I havent reloaded is BP (from buffalo arms) but it still shoots everywhere. It dosent seem to bump up the bullet. I also noticed that the powder is loose in the case, like smokeless. Its not compressed at all. Everyone, that I asked said that BP must be compressed.... Im not sure what to think.

w30wcf
08-28-2017, 06:07 AM
Kev18,
BP does not have to be compressed, but best accuracy is going to come from a load that is compressed. If you were to pull a bullet and weigh a powder charge I wonder what it would weigh? Or weigh a loaded round and deduct the fired case and bullet weight.

The bullets should be bumping up with b.p. if there is a full load... and the bullets are not too hard.
Leading in the barrel can cause inaccuracy as well.
I would suggest cleaning the barrel very well, then fire only 5 rounds of b.p. noting where each bullet impacts the target. If those 5 group aok, then fire 5 more and see where they impact the target. My guess is that somewhere along the way, the barrel will foul out since the fouling can build up with accuracy suffering greatly with cartridges of greater than 70 grs. capacity.

The one thing I am a bit puzzled about is the brass expansion. Does the expanded brass extract easily? If so, can the action be reclosed easily?

One thing I just realized is that the Winchester bullet does not have a crimp groove because in use the bullet is supported by a case of b.p.
When there is nothing holding the bullet in place, then there is the danger if the bullet telescoping into the case. If it were my 40-82 and I wanted to use smokeless with the orginal bullet, I would use 35/4895, then fill the rest of the case with PSB (polyethylene shot buffer) then seat the bullet. In addition to supporting the bullet, the PSB acts as a flexible gas check allowing undersized bullets to shoot well.:)

This is the PSB I have used in my '73 Winchester .44WCF that has an oversized barrel (.433") with .428" bullets.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb
Check the target below - with and without PSB. Amazing what corking up the gas behind a bullet that is .005" undersized bullet will do!

Otherwise, to use Trail Boss, I would, for sure, get some bullets that have crimp groove. Will fired cases accept bullets larger than .406"? If so, I would opt for a bullet of the diameter closer to the groove dia is.

w30wcf

w30wcf
08-29-2017, 04:09 AM
The story behind the target is this. I had purchased a box of Winchester .44-40 cowboy ammunition back in the late 1990's, in anticipation of knowing that someday I would own an original 1873 Winchester. In 1999 that dream became a reality.:)

I went to the range with ammunition in hand, and to my dismay, the bullets went sideways. Yikes!202810 Normally I would slug the barrel, but I was anxious to fire my original '73. It was then that I discovered that the barrel was .433" and a bullet pulled from the ammunition was .428" (.005" undersized) and pretty hard to boot (17 BHN).

I thought Drats! now what am I going to do with the rest of this ammunition? I decided to use an inertia puller and dissect the remaining 45 cartridges. I disposed of the powder and reassembled the cartridges with the recipe that is on the target. By keeping the gas behind the bullet, it centered itself in the barrel and tranversed it undisturbed by no powder gases getting by and produced the one hole group at 25 yards. :):)

Update: Upon further examination of the barrel, I have discovered that it is .437" in front of the chamber and .433" at the muzzle, for an average barrel dimension of .435" which is .007" over the bullet diameter(!).

w30wcf

Kev18
09-03-2017, 05:02 PM
I finally got my dies from Buffalo arms. I Resized quite a few cartridges and they work great now. My only issue is that The resizing/decapping die crushes my brass right under the shoulder. Im not sure why. So now im forced to leave it unscrewed almost to the maximum causing it to not decap the brass.

fivefang
09-03-2017, 09:20 PM
Kev18, do you shoot single shot mode?, if so put a orientation mk. on the casing which might help with re-loading/chambering ease, Fivefang

Kev18
09-05-2017, 06:12 PM
Thanks for all the info! I will try shooting BP rounds from buffalo arms and GAD customs. Everyone is telling me that Bp is supposed to be so much better but I remember that I could barely hit a target. And I shot so many boxes of them! I still have atleast 3 boxes of them, so il see the results.

As of now I get good groupings by just stuffing a small square of toilet paper down the case (Not compressing the powder) and just pressing the bullet in normally. For some reason that helps. I will definitely try ordering some of those fiber wads you recommended off of Buffalo arms.
I also fixed my case neck expansion with my new resizing dies. Turns out I was using magnum primers for black powder. Now I got Winchester large rifle primers. So thats what my problem was. I put the winchester primers in, shot the round, and the case fit fine in the chamber even after being fired.

Geobru
11-04-2017, 04:28 AM
Kev,
I have an 86 that was built in 1887 that hadn't been fired since 1929 when my dad bought it at an auction for $1.50. I wound up with that rifle and started shooting it in 2008. I started with 3 boxes of ammo from Gad Custom Cartridges to see if the old girl would shoot. It did, but not very accurately. That was the start of a quest to get her to shoot accurately. These are some of the things I learned.

1. Slug your bore to find out the diameter of your bore. Mine is .409 and I shoot .410 bullets in it. The larger bullet won't chamber in my gun without turning the neck down. I bought 45-90 brass and used the regular reloading dies to resize it to 40-82. Starline brass is thicker and will require turning down. Old RP and UMC brass isn't as thick and some of it chambered with the .410 bullets without turning the neck.
2. Unless your gun was made after about 1903 and stamped nickel steel, keep the velocity around 1500 fps to mimic black powder velocities. If you use black , this is a non-issue, but if you use smokeless, this is an important consideration.
3. There are smokeless loads out there using XMP-5744, RL-7, IMR-4198, IMR-3031, H-322 and some others. My best loads have been 31 gr. RL-7 and 26 gr. 5744 pushing cast bullets between 255 and 277gr.
4. If you shoot smokeless, you will have to use some sort of filler in order to get decent accuracy. I have loads that I shot with and without filler at 50 yards that grouped nicely with, and were spread out all over the paper without. The most common filler materials are dacron fiber, 1 square of TP rolled up and folded in half, Cream of wheat and cornmeal. The 40-82 and 45-90 have too much room in the case to get an even burn without a filler, which affects accuracy.
5. Maximum bullet weight is about 300 grains according to Mike Venturino, but I haven't tried anything over 277 grains.

Same load with and without filler
207195

100yards - 2.5" (1.26" without the flyer)
207193

200 yards - 3.25" 3 shot group
207194

Reverend Al
11-04-2017, 02:41 PM
Years ago I had an '86 in .40-82 with good condition rapid taper octagon barrel. Initial tests were dismal with the bullets keyholing at 50 yards. I found an article by Mike Venturino where he worked the kinks out of a friend's Marlin '95 in .40-82 and his fix was a filler. I used his suggested load of 35.0 grains of IMR3031, bulk yellow cornmeal to the base of the seated bullet, and a proper weight 260 grain bullet. My rifle went from keyholing at 50 yards to 2" - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Unfortunately I was talked out of that old '86 in a weak moment, but I now have managed to replace it with a nice 1885 High Wall mfg in 1889 in .40-82 and it shoots the same load quite well. If I can find my copy of Venturino's article I'll scan it and send it to you ...

https://i.imgur.com/i7L6I7f.jpg

Kev18
11-07-2017, 07:50 PM
Thanks alot for all the info! really appreciated. Il try the filler. I use trail boss in my smokeless loads. I just recently got 2f BP though, so I reloaded alot of ammo. I didnt go shoot yet since its hunting season. I dont want to disturb anyone's hunt. I reloaded 60, 70, 75, and one 78 and 80 grain load. Il see how it performs this winter I guess... I also ripped a bullet out of the GAD cartridges I had. He only put 50 grains of BP in there. Loose... no wads, nothing. And I feel like my Buffalo arms ammo are all the same aswell. I cant hit the broad side of a barn with those.
Also you might have a point on turning down the cases, because I tried chambering my 60gr load and it kinda slides in well. I need to use force on the lever. but nothing crazy. i also tried chambering my 75 and 80 grains, and that was another story. . They were quite hard. When I take the GAD ammo or the BA ones, they just slide in all the way down the chamber with 0 issues .My bullets are .406 and my bore is .408. So im trying to use alot of BP to bump up the bullet size.. Thats what ive been told atleast. I dont ahve alot of experience in reloading.

Kev18
11-07-2017, 08:17 PM
207366

Kev18
11-07-2017, 08:32 PM
Years ago I had an '86 in .40-82 with good condition rapid taper octagon barrel. Initial tests were dismal with the bullets keyholing at 50 yards. I found an article by Mike Venturino where he worked the kinks out of a friend's Marlin '95 in .40-82 and his fix was a filler. I used his suggested load of 35.0 grains of IMR3031, bulk yellow cornmeal to the base of the seated bullet, and a proper weight 260 grain bullet. My rifle went from keyholing at 50 yards to 2" - 2 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Unfortunately I was talked out of that old '86 in a weak moment, but I now have managed to replace it with a nice 1885 High Wall mfg in 1889 in .40-82 and it shoots the same load quite well. If I can find my copy of Venturino's article I'll scan it and send it to you ...

https://i.imgur.com/i7L6I7f.jpg

Thanks, if you ever find the article again id like to have it. Would you know of any books that have good reloading data for obsolete cartridges like the 40-82? Thanks ! :)

Reverend Al
11-07-2017, 10:15 PM
Try to find a copy of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's book "The Winchester Lever Legacy". Lots of great information on duplicating the factory ballistics of old and obsolete calibres to shoot in old Winchesters. If you shop around you might find a used copy at a reasonable price, but it is not usually a cheap book. (But well worth the investment.)

https://www.amazon.com/Winchester-lever-legacy-Clyde-Williamson/dp/0962026719

Kev18
11-08-2017, 01:37 AM
Thanks Il give it a shot :)

Ballistics in Scotland
11-08-2017, 03:47 PM
Try to find a copy of Clyde "Snooky" Williamson's book "The Winchester Lever Legacy". Lots of great information on duplicating the factory ballistics of old and obsolete calibres to shoot in old Winchesters. If you shop around you might find a used copy at a reasonable price, but it is not usually a cheap book. (But well worth the investment.)

https://www.amazon.com/Winchester-lever-legacy-Clyde-Williamson/dp/0962026719

Heartily seconded, and I've got mine. It is a huge great doorstep of a book, and you can easily be deceived by dipping into it and seeing the western lore, drawings, Williamson's cattle brand certificate, folksy humour etc. But behind that there lies a first-rate reloading manual and programme of testing on the Browning lever Winchesters.

Mine is signed by the author, but perhaps they all were. It couldn't have had a big print run, and anybody here who rus a reprint publishing company could surely do both us and Williamson or his heirs a favour. I got mine by mail i9nth b 1994, and was called in to the parcel-opening customs department in the post office. I went in in some trepidation, although it isn't like the Kuwaitis to interfere with books like that. But it turned out that the director just wanted to ply me with tea and cakes and talk about guns.

I don't think you can find better prices than Amazon at the moment, but in such cases www.bookfinder.com is usually worth a look.

Kev18
11-08-2017, 07:37 PM
Il try to find it somewhere. I live in Canada so the prices are abit high for me. But il see what I can do.

Geobru
11-09-2017, 05:30 AM
I am not sure why you are having issues with chambering the higher amounts of powder if the brass is unfired and the bullets are .406. IIRC, starline brass will only hold 72 grains of BP behind a 260 grain bullet. The only thing I can think of is that the bullets aren't able to seat as deeply in the casing as it should and the overall length is too long and the bullet is being pushed into the rifling when you try to chamber the round.

I have to turn the cases at the neck when I use .410 bullets because the outside diameter is larger than the throat of the chamber. The only part of the cartridge that is oversized is the neck where the bullet is seated. In my gun, that area of the case has to be turned down below .430. I turn it down using a Lee three jaw chuck and the spindle that Lee sells so you can use it in a drill. That costs around $20 plus the cost of a file to take off the excess metal.

You may want to consider buying cast bullets that are the correct size for your gun. Sounds like you need .409 bullets, not .406. Smokeless won't bump the bullet size to fill the barrel. BP is supposed to, but I don't have any experience with that, only with smokeless.

Earlwb
11-09-2017, 11:36 AM
I was thinking that the bullets may need a hollow base with a thick skirt. Then when fired the skirt or base of the bullet gets expanded to fit the rifling better. Sort of like the 38 special target wadcutter bullets. But with a more thick skirt to the base of the bullets. But maybe they already do that with some factory ammo.

Geobru
11-11-2017, 07:41 AM
Kev,
I wouldn't use Trail Boss in that gun. I spent 2 years looking for 40-82 loads on the internet and have quite a list. Trail Boss isn't in that list.
The reason is that it is a very fast burning powder which equates to higher pressures when you touch off a shot. The powders I listed earlier are medium burning powders and are safer to use in a mild steel barrel if you keep the velocity at or below 1500 fps.

EDIT:
When I wrote the note above, I assumed that Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder with small amounts in small cases. I WAS WRONG!!
Trail Boss was designed to fill up the large black powder cases and propel the bullet at lower velocity. According to the reviews most users like it in black powder cases and in some more modern cases to reduce recoil and allow the use of cast bullets. Thanks to Ballistics in Scotland for his post, which spurred me to look into it more deeply. I'm going to try this powder in my 40-82 to see what it will do!

Ballistics in Scotland
11-11-2017, 11:48 AM
I think it is because Trail Boss is a relatively recent powder. It stands to reason you will find more information on Reloder 7 and 11, 4350 etc. I wouldn't anticipate much bore erosion with any of those, as long as you keep within the 1500ft./sec. range. It is trying for higher velocities with fast powder that is most harmful.

Kev18
11-12-2017, 06:50 PM
I just went to go shoot on my land. I Shot from quite a close range. Most of my loads were inaccurate, so i feel like my last hope is to use some wads under the bullet. Whenever I used TP wads for the smokeless powder it helped alot. I just ordered the .40 cal wads from Buffalo arms so il reload ammo whenever I get those. :(

Kev18
11-12-2017, 06:53 PM
I am not sure why you are having issues with chambering the higher amounts of powder if the brass is unfired and the bullets are .406. IIRC, starline brass will only hold 72 grains of BP behind a 260 grain bullet. The only thing I can think of is that the bullets aren't able to seat as deeply in the casing as it should and the overall length is too long and the bullet is being pushed into the rifling when you try to chamber the round.

I have to turn the cases at the neck when I use .410 bullets because the outside diameter is larger than the throat of the chamber. The only part of the cartridge that is oversized is the neck where the bullet is seated. In my gun, that area of the case has to be turned down below .430. I turn it down using a Lee three jaw chuck and the spindle that Lee sells so you can use it in a drill. That costs around $20 plus the cost of a file to take off the excess metal.

You may want to consider buying cast bullets that are the correct size for your gun. Sounds like you need .409 bullets, not .406. Smokeless won't bump the bullet size to fill the barrel. BP is supposed to, but I don't have any experience with that, only with smokeless.


I have the original Ideal Reloading Tool made for 40-82 manufactured in 1884. And it cast .406 bullets. I was testing out some ammo , and I was able to fit 80grs of BP in the case. I had to compress in the press though. My best accuracy was from my 70grs load from a short distance.

Geobru
11-13-2017, 11:38 PM
I have the original Ideal Reloading Tool made for 40-82 manufactured in 1884. And it cast .406 bullets. I was testing out some ammo , and I was able to fit 80grs of BP in the case. I had to compress in the press though. My best accuracy was from my 70grs load from a short distance.

I have a vintage 40-82 bullet mold and it casts bullets at .406 too, but a .406 cast bullet won't shoot accurately in a .408 barrel. Jacketed bullets in .406 seem to grip the rifling better than cast, but won't be very accurate. The old 86's are known for varying bore diameters from .406 to .409 that I am aware of. If you shoot smokeless, accuracy begins with a bullet that is the correct size for your gun.

The cartridges that Gad Custom Cartridges loaded for me had .406 bullets. The lead bullets were 260 grains and the jacketed were 220 grain. The jacketed shot a 4-5" group at 50 yards while the cast bullets keyholed at 50.

Kev18
11-14-2017, 12:46 AM
I have a vintage 40-82 bullet mold and it casts bullets at .406 too, but a .406 cast bullet won't shoot accurately in a .408 barrel. Jacketed bullets in .406 seem to grip the rifling better than cast, but won't be very accurate. The old 86's are known for varying bore diameters from .406 to .409 that I am aware of. If you shoot smokeless, accuracy begins with a bullet that is the correct size for your gun.

The cartridges that Gad Custom Cartridges loaded for me had .406 bullets. The lead bullets were 260 grains and the jacketed were 220 grain. The jacketed shot a 4-5" group at 50 yards while the cast bullets keyholed at 50.

Do you know somewhere that sells a .408 mold?

Reverend Al
11-14-2017, 03:53 PM
Maybe something along the lines of this bullet sized to .408" or even .410"?

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=40_220&products_id=1789&osCsid=7ji7r101ms2ub7rjbo0tjr7co3

Kev18
11-17-2017, 12:21 AM
I just wish my .406 would expand. I reloaded more of them. I put 19 gr of trailboss in 5 cartridges with a cotton make up pad gas check/ powder compressor ( Its not compressed just keeps it at the bottom. I think.) And I did the same with 70gr of FFg Goex. Except I compressed the powder this time.

Geobru
11-17-2017, 04:39 AM
Here are some options:

This is a .411 265gr bullet designed for a 41 magnum. You can resize this to .409 or .410 for your bore.
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC411265RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

NEI Hand tools
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
406-260-GC - This mold could be ordered oversize or bump up the size in a resizing die.
410-260-GC - Resize to 409 or 410

If you want to just buy bullets, try these guys. He will size them to order. He has the NEI 406-260-GC advertised. I've bought bullets from him with good results. He sized the bullets that I bought to .410.
https://bullshop.weebly.com/--40-caliber-cast-bullets.html

Or these guys might work out.
Meister Bullets
http://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/445-C-22-P-0/4065-260-GR-RNFP
They sell a 40-65 bullet sized to .408. Might see if they will size them to .409, or as cast to get .409.

Kev18
11-17-2017, 08:41 PM
Here are some options:

This is a .411 265gr bullet designed for a 41 magnum. You can resize this to .409 or .410 for your bore.
http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TLC411265RF/bullet/sketch.jpg

NEI Hand tools
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
406-260-GC - This mold could be ordered oversize or bump up the size in a resizing die.
410-260-GC - Resize to 409 or 410

If you want to just buy bullets, try these guys. He will size them to order. He has the NEI 406-260-GC advertised. I've bought bullets from him with good results. He sized the bullets that I bought to .410.
https://bullshop.weebly.com/--40-caliber-cast-bullets.html

Or these guys might work out.
Meister Bullets
http://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/445-C-22-P-0/4065-260-GR-RNFP
They sell a 40-65 bullet sized to .408. Might see if they will size them to .409, or as cast to get .409.


Thanks for the info. How do I order from the NEI guys? There is a .410 260gr bullet that I can see.

Geobru
11-19-2017, 03:21 AM
http://www.neihandtools.com/online_order.html

Kev18
11-28-2017, 04:52 PM
I just beagled my mold. It casts bullets at .411 now so il see how it shoots next time i have the chance. I made so many ammo samples. Now il go and reload these bullets with 3031.

Kev18
12-03-2017, 11:53 PM
I found a solid load. 34.5 gr of 3031 and a beagled .406 mold! Shoots well! :D

Geobru
12-04-2017, 02:27 AM
I found a solid load. 34.5 gr of 3031 and a beagled .406 mold! Shoots well! :D

Congrats!!
Now go out there and shoot that old girl! Enjoy!

What did you do to "beagle" your mold?

Kev18
12-04-2017, 02:29 PM
Just added aluminium tape to it. Thats what everyone else did. The tape has .002 thickness so I just added two strips beside the bullet cavity. I might even add one more strip just on one side to assure that its big enough.
In the end, it really made a huge difference. And Since im shooting 3031 I dont need to clean the rifle every ten seconds like with black powder :)
I use Winchester large rifle primers, 3031, dacron for a filler, a .40 cal fiber wad and a cast lead, lubed bullet.