Durabitlity and reliability, which handgun is the best?

[tazman]

Talking durability and reliability here. This question is in some ways for a SHTF situation.
Which handgun(make and model) would you buy and expect to have no malfunctions with and little to no break in period along with a lasting durability?
Only caveat is it also needs to be accurate enough for people and small game out to 20 yards.
Perhaps I should split this up into two categories, revolver and semi-auto.

[OlDeuce]

Ruger Super Blackhawk .44mag:Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire:

Ol Deuce

[Pistolero49]

Revolver=Ruger BlackHawk .357 mag/9mm Convertible
Semi-auto= Glock 19 Gen 4 9mm

[Harter66]

I have a couple of S&W N frames that will be 100 next spring .

Forged steel in an auto I have several 1000 rounds through a HP clone .

[jmort]

I agree
Single action Colt ot the clones
You could load it today and come back 50 years from now and no problems

[PaulG67]

Ruger GP-100, 357 Mag

[Reddirt62]

Super Redhawk Alaskan
Sig P229 Legionhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170812/d4e3f3794a2bc503a77f4686a4a1428e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170812/e93be2b2e6cc95564ab4c6cf54c77720.jpg

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[Hannibal]

Revolver, with a preference toward Ruger. Tough as nails.

No safety to fiddle with.

No slide to bite you.

No magazine to spit out on the ground unintentionally.

Thumb the hammer back. Pull the trigger. If you STILL have trouble, repeat as necessary.

[Petrol & Powder]

If the end of the world as we know it [TEOTWAWKI] comes, I'll just be the first Gazelle to die. I'm not much into prepping for disasters of that scale.

If we're talking about basic long term reliability, that's a different issue.

Simple is good and if you just want some platform that has little to go wrong, a break action single shot may be the way to go.

If you want some type of handgun that can fire more than one shot before reloading, then it's going to be a revolver or pistol.
I'm not a single action revolver guy but they are clearly simple devices. I don't dislike single actions, I'm just more of a DA revolver guy. I don't think you give up much reliability with a DA revolver over a SA, so I would still go with a DA. In that camp the Ruger GP-100, one of the S&W L-frames or an N-frame would make my list. Stainless steel would be preferable. If stainless steel wasn't possible, then the gun and all parts should be finished in Robar NP3 or equivalent.

A revolver may tolerate a lot of neglect but is some ways a pistol may actually take more abuse.
Dropping a revolver and bending a crane will take it out of service. Bending an ejector rod enough to bind it may take the gun out of service and other severe damage will stop a revolver. That type of damage is rare but is within the realm of possibility.
A pistol is a little more difficult to damage to a point that it will not work but may be a little more susceptible to a temporary stoppage.
So, it's sort of a draw in overall reliability.
Almost any modern military type pistol will tolerate a lot of abuse and continue to at least be functional with some cleaning. Unless you break a critical part, you can likely get it running again.


So I would have to separate reliability from durability. If the thing just has to go bang when I want it to go bang - both pistols and revolvers will fill that need. If replacement parts and tools are available, the situation gets even better.

In the pistol category I would start with a full sized Glock like a model 17. After that choice there are still a lot of good options: Beretta 92, CZ75, 1911, SIG; the list is extensive.

[The Governor]

I'd go with my 5 in model 29 and a Glock 30 with a 21 mag.

[bouncer50]

In the SHTF a rifle would be your first choice. Next a good side arm my choice a good 1911 or a 9mm auto. Firepower is my first choice if you live in a city or large town.

[GhostHawk]

For me I look at warranty. Take a maker like Hipoint (Love em or hate em as you please) their warranty is lifetime, on the gun. Not the buyer.

So to my way of thinking, there is dang little to go wrong with that design. Or they would not still be in business, selling that gun. Or, they are making so much on those guns that they just don't care. Now when your talking a 150-170$ C9 9mm, there simply can not be 2 thousand dollars worth of profit in that gun. So to me that does discount the making money theory.

On the other side of the coin, yeah it is hard to go wrong with something like a Ruger.
Costs more, but you know what your buying. Now I don't have a stable of blackhawks, redhawks or Gp's as I simply don't have that much money to want to throw around.

And I don't shoot that much pistol.

But I do have a pair of Ruger Mk III 22/45's that have proven to be rock solid dependable. Minor cleaning oiling once a year and they are good to go.

But for the money I spent on the Ruger's I could buy a whole box of Hipoint C9's.

And mine has been nothing if not trouble free. I bought it from a pawn shop, it had a couple of minor issues. I called the company, read them the serial #, explained my issues. They sent the parts no charge, added a spare magazine no charge and left me a devoted happy customer.

That design is just plain dead simple. Very little to go wrong.

Now if I need to hit olives at 20 yards I am going to go with the Ruger.
But it is the Hipoint that lives next to my recliner in a nice black case to make sure I can always get to my shotgun.

Not as accurate, both mag's hold 10. But I would rather trust 10 + 1 of 9mm than 10+ 1 of .22lr.

And I would not be a bit concerned if somewhere down the line I happened to find a similar sized 9mm semi by Ruger to swap them out.

Comes down to experience and confidence. Choose the one you have the most confidence in. In the long run that confidence may be more difference than any actual difference between the weapons.

[Hannibal]

There's a plethora of 'cool guy' stuff out there. I got my Concealed Carry license for my home state in 2010. At the time, my state was requiring all CCP holders to show 'proficiency' with both a revolver and a semi-auto. There were 12-15 persons in the class.

On the range, one fellow had trouble with a .45LC that was having indexing problems. Shaving lead when fired. Even cut the cheek of the local PD Chief's cheek when he was trying to help the fellow figure it out.

And then came out the semi-autos. Holy ****.

Failure to fire, failure to feed, failure to eject, safety left on, magazine ejected while attempting to release the safety, forgetting to chamber a round when changing magazines, etc, etc, etc, .....

After that demonstration, I decided that if faced with a life-threatening situation, I want to keep things as simple as I possibly can. And that means a revolver. If I fire 5 rounds and I still have a problem, then the worst day of my life involves several assailants, and I'm screwed, or I just shot everything up but the assailant, and I'm still screwed.

I hope I never have to find out, but I carry a revolver.

[condorjohn]

S&W Mod 10, Colt 1911

[DerekP Houston]

S&W Mod 10, Colt 1911

I'll second the S&W model 10, or a ruger gp 100. I wouldn't pick a semi auto for that case I'd want something with a longer barrel and less parts. Combat tupperware might fit the bill (glock).

[sawinredneck]

I'd look only at stainless for me, or a well proven coating that would have to cover all parts of the gun.
In a revolver, I'd look at one of the 8rd .357's, plenty of power and with a 4-5" barrel it's still concealable and accurate.
For an auto I'd look to Sig, stainless in 9mm something in the P226 size.

[oldhenry]

Revolver: Ruger SA (any center fire caliber)
Automatic: 1911

IMHO a Ruger .22 automatic (any of the MKs) would be more reliable & durable than the 1911, but RF ammo occasionally fails negating the reliability factor.

[rintinglen]

I vote with a 4 inch 38 special revolver, S&w by choice, but a Ruger would do fine. If I lived where I might have to deal with a big bear, lion, or tiger, I'd go with a ,44 magnum.
For a pistol, I think my Sig Sauer P220 would be my choice. It is extremely accurate.

[tranders]

For me it's a 4 inch Model 10 or 15 S&W or a loose as a goose 1911. Many years ago I bought a Norinco 1911 that rattled when you shook it and it fed everything.

[xfoxofshogo]

ruger vaquero with 45 lc and 45acp clynders or the 357 with a 9mm cylinder that let you shoot 9mm 38 and 357 mag

[ShooterAZ]

Talking durability and reliability here. This question is in some ways for a SHTF situation.
Which handgun(make and model) would you buy and expect to have no malfunctions with and little to no break in period along with a lasting durability?
Only caveat is it also needs to be accurate enough for people and small game out to 20 yards.
Perhaps I should split this up into two categories, revolver and semi-auto.

Only 20 yards? Ruger Blackhawk 44 out to 100 yards +, S&W 686 357 same. 1911's out to 50 yards for small game and then some... I like my Old Model Ruger Single Six for small game. For close up really bad situations, a S&W Model 10 will get it done. For ABSOLUTE reliability I will personally trust a revolver over an auto. If SHTF happens, I will be going to an M1A or M1 Garand, not a handgun.

[Texas by God]

Ruger Blackhawk and Ballester Molina

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[Drm50]

There is no contest, S&W m10, the most trouble free design , vouched for by many gunsmiths.
Colt 1911 another one that's been around for 100+ yrs. There is a reason for that dependability
and durability. If you throw a SA in, I would have to go with Ruger Blackhawks, more durable
than a Colt SA by far.

[FlyfishermanMike]

Ruger Redhawk, Glock 30 and a Marlin 60.

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[tazman]

Only 20 yards? Ruger Blackhawk 44 out to 100 yards +, S&W 686 357 same. 1911's out to 50 yards for small game and then some... I like my Old Model Ruger Single Six for small game. For close up really bad situations, a S&W Model 10 will get it done. For ABSOLUTE reliability I will personally trust a revolver over an auto. If SHTF happens, I will be going to an M1A or M1 Garand, not a handgun.

I know my limitations with a handgun. That is why I specified the distance. Any hit I make at 100 yards with a handgun is more luck than skill regardless of the capabilities of the handgun in question.
This is not going to be my primary weapon. The handgun is to be a backup for my rifle and for close range work. I will also be using it for current self defense and practice at home. I have other guns for concealed carry.
I am just interested in the opinions and experience out there. Many of you have wider experience with handguns than I do and I respect that.
I like the opinions and responses that have been presented here. Please keep them coming.

[Petrol & Powder]

Tazman can you define your question a little bit.
Reliability and Durability are two different things. Reliability involves the device functioning properly when you need it to work. Durability relates to the devices' ability to function over long periods of time without failure or need of repair.

One could load a stainless steel revolver and put it in a desk drawer for 50 years and it would likely function at the end of that 50 years. That is a measure of reliability.

One could take a similar stainless steel revolver, say a Ruger GP-100, and shoot 25 rounds of 38 Special through it daily for many years and not even come close to wearing it out. That's a measure of durability.

Does your question deal with a gun that is to be stored for long periods of time and must work when called upon? Or does your question deal with a gun that can be extensively used under harsh conditions with little or no ability to repair it if it breaks?

Reliability and durability are related but they aren't the same thing.

Most militaries abandoned revolvers in the early 20th century (Great Britain was a holdout with their Enfield revolvers). However, revolvers were still issued to aircrews, support personal, guards, etc. for many years. Pistols and revolvers can be very reliable and very durable. If I had to pick one type over the other, my decision would be heavily influenced by intended application.
Am I going to be in a dirty environment with no repair parts available? Will the gun be carried a lot and shot a little? Will the gun be stored for long periods of time with the ability to clean it? Will the gun be heavily used and fired often?

[gnostic]

It took me 47 years and somewhere near 100k rounds to break my model 28 S&W. I'm waiting for the pre printed mailer from S&W as we speak.

[tazman]

Tazman can you define your question a little bit.
Reliability and Durability are two different things. Reliability involves the device functioning properly when you need it to work. Durability relates to the devices' ability to function over long periods of time without failure or need of repair.

One could load a stainless steel revolver and put it in a desk drawer for 50 years and it would likely function at the end of that 50 years. That is a measure of reliability.

One could take a similar stainless steel revolver, say a Ruger GP-100, and shoot 25 rounds of 38 Special through it daily for many years and not even come close to wearing it out. That's a measure of durability.

Does your question deal with a gun that is to be stored for long periods of time and must work when called upon? Or does your question deal with a gun that can be extensively used under harsh conditions with little or no ability to repair it if it breaks?

Reliability and durability are related but they aren't the same thing.

Most militaries abandoned revolvers in the early 20th century (Great Britain was a holdout with their Enfield revolvers). However, revolvers were still issued to aircrews, support personal, guards, etc. for many years. Pistols and revolvers can be very reliable and very durable. If I had to pick one type over the other, my decision would be heavily influenced by intended application.
Am I going to be in a dirty environment with no repair parts available? Will the gun be carried a lot and shot a little? Will the gun be stored for long periods of time with the ability to clean it? Will the gun be heavily used and fired often?

These weapons will NOT be stored. They will be used weekly for practice and home security.
My thinking is to get opinions and experiences from many people and try to find some common ideas about guns that work well(reliable) and last a long time(durable). I need both since I expect to use the gun for many years and many rounds of ammunition. I may need to trust it to save my life and the lives of my family.


It took me 47 years and somewhere near 100k rounds to break my model 28 S&W. I'm waiting for the pre printed mailer from S&W as we speak.

That says a lot about that handgun.

[The Governor]

Yes it does. Wonder what broke on that 28.

[charlie b]

If you really do want it as a SHTF type application then I would go with a high cap 9mm. Glock if they fit your hand. I don't like their feel so would go with a Browning High Power or clone. Why 9mm? Availability of ammo. .40 cal would be a close second and .45 third (unless the military converts back to the .45 then it would go to first on my list).

[LUCKYDAWG13]

If i was to start over i might just run with a Glock 19 G4 but I'm not so i will stick with my Ruger 1911 LW in 9mm

[6bg6ga]

Well, you opened up a can of worms with this one. Your going to end up with every make and model being mentioned simply because their owners feel their particular gun is the best.

The best gun is one that goes boom when you pull the trigger. enough said.

[jetinteriorguy]

In revolvers, my S&W 627 paired with my Henry Big Boy Steel .357. In semi auto's my CZ75B SA paired with my JR Carbine in 9mm. All of these are solid reliable guns that will last a long long time with relatively moderate care. And they are all very accurate for me.

[Petrol & Powder]

These weapons will NOT be stored. They will be used weekly for practice and home security.
My thinking is to get opinions and experiences from many people and try to find some common ideas about guns that work well(reliable) and last a long time(durable). I need both since I expect to use the gun for many years and many rounds of ammunition. I may need to trust it to save my life and the lives of my family.






OK, that helps define the question. You're looking for a handgun that can survive a high round count. It sounds like durability is your chief goal.

There's a sticky on this very forum concerning a member that fired 75K + rounds from a S&W model 27. That's solid proof of durability in my book.

The Ruger GP-100 platform is very strong and in the same class as a L-frame S&W (686, 681, etc.)

Glocks have proven to be incredibly durable and reliable; another good candidate.

In the pistol category beyond Glock, there are plenty of good candidates but I'm not convinced any of them will match that N-frame S&W at 75,000 + rounds. Semi-auto pistols have a lot more sliding surfaces and operate at higher speeds. I'm not saying a 1911 will fail to go 75K rounds but I am saying that somewhere in that time you're probably going to need to fit a match barrel, recoil spring, link and new barrel bushing to keep it shooting acceptably.

Starting with an overbuilt gun is probably a good idea. Using a N-frame S&W or Ruger GP-100 to shoot tens of thousands of 38 Special rounds will stress the gun less than the same number of 357 mag rounds.

The reality is a lot of quality guns will go tens upon tens of thousands of rounds without a problem. A 1911, Browning Hi-Power or CZ-75 will likely out live its owner if given a little care. Even a pre-war Polish Radom, Star Super B, SIG P210 or Tokarev TT-33 ! would be hard to wear out!

In the revolver world, I would go with a N-frame S&W in 38/357, a L-frame in 38/357 or a GP-100 in 38/357 with a slight preference for stainless steel construction.
In the Pistol category I would start with a Glock Model 17 or if I needed to conceal it, a Glock Model 19.

[Loudenboomer]

The OP says accurate enough out 20 yds. Most compact 1911 gunners can do that. So many variables. For a SHTF situation you need a bug out bag/case/Box. The hand gun I carry is fine for a quick out. Use your handgun to get to a short barreled shotgun or rifle. My minimum is full sized handgun with 50 rds. and a rifle with 40 rds. I have several cases ready to go. Just heading out to shoot one now. This one is a Pelican case with a CZ 85, Sako TRG, Large Folding knife and a lighter inside. For some situations you'd be better suited with a smaller soft case with lots of pockets and a riot gun. Have plenty be ready. JMHO

[Walt]

Revolver - 4" S&W 686
Pistol - Glock 17

[Ramjet-SS]

Any Ruger or Smith and Wesson revolver.
Glock model 19

[Catshooter]

tazman,

For a roller I would pick either a Smith or a Ruger.

An auto is easy: any Glock you like. Look at this thread:https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/i-think-my-21-has-proven-its-durability.462537/

Please note that the thread was first posted in 2005. Just recently the same guy with the same G21 posted a new thread saying that after all that torture, 18 years and more than 200,000 rounds he thinks the piece is wore out. The Glock factory has at least two 17s with more than a million rounds apiece through them. They're both smooth bores, but they still shoot.


Cat

[Blackwater]

If I absoposiloutely HAD to have a gun work under the WORST of all possible conditions, I'd pack plenty of grenades! But for the handgun, it'd definitely be a Ruger SA of whatever type was available. Either that or a .45 auto, 1911 style. Even in the worst circumstances, one MUST take care of one's weapons, lest one wind up trying to stroke on empty. Not good for engines or fire fights!

[bob208]

I always said if I was going to be down to one hand gun I would take my ruger security-six stainless steel 4" in .357. next would be my ruger Blackhawk old model in .357. I have owned and shot both of them for over 30 years each with never a bobble. the only time I have ever seen a problem with either of those two models was when some one worked on it to make it "better"

[6bg6ga]

Well, you opened up a can of worms with this one. Your going to end up with every make and model being mentioned simply because their owners feel their particular gun is the best.

The best gun is one that goes boom when you pull the trigger. enough said.

So far this thread hasn't surprised me one bit. Everyone is claiming their pet jewel is the best out there. In all reality one canot really say for example if the Glock with 5 rounds thru it or 5K rounds thru it is going to fail or be any better than say someones S&W with an oversized magazine sticking out the bottom of it. You can be assured that when it hits the fan their all going to fail sooner or later and we probably won't have a parts stash for our prized pet unless we bought 2 of said prized animal.

So, buy two and strap on two holsters and use the one on your dominent side. The other is your backup and now you still have a 50/50 chance of failure.

[Hannibal]

So far this thread hasn't surprised me one bit. Everyone is claiming their pet jewel is the best out there. In all reality one canot really say for example if the Glock with 5 rounds thru it or 5K rounds thru it is going to fail or be any better than say someones S&W with an oversized magazine sticking out the bottom of it. You can be assured that when it hits the fan their all going to fail sooner or later and we probably won't have a parts stash for our prized pet unless we bought 2 of said prized animal.

So, buy two and strap on two holsters and use the one on your dominent side. The other is your backup and now you still have a 50/50 chance of failure.

I strongly beg to differ. Based upon my observation of 14-15 individuals utilizing both revolvers and semi-autos on the same day, I observed that the likelihood of problems is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced with the simplicity of a revolver as compared to a semi-auto.

I consider this to be as 'Real World' a test as one is likely to find.

Just my opinion. But you'll not change it.

[Plate plinker]

A big bore revolver 44mag? and a 9MM glock probably my G19.

[Piedmont]

Guns are just machines with parts and all of them can break. For all the durability Ruger revolvers are reported to possess, I have had them break four times on me. Three were Ruger single actions. One transfer bar and the rod/plunger on the bottom of the hammer broke on a .22 new model and a centerfire old model. A Security Six broke the trigger spring while I was shooting it. I'm not knocking Ruger revolvers; I like them. But I don't have illusions anymore.

Just one little part breaking will completely take your gun out of action, even a Glock.

[Bigslug]

1911, no question. For the topic in question, I regard everything else as. . .well, everything else.

Partly because it's a REALLY rugged gun to begin with, but also because it's very easy to work on without a lot of specialized whoop-de-doos. If I'm REALLY planning for TEOTWAWKI, I'd ensure that the plunger tube was really locked down tight and there was a spare $20-30 bucks worth of spare parts in with my MRE mac & cheeses (because everything breaks eventually). It's also one of the few I'd be semi-comfortable improvising fixes for.

I would want as few departures from the original guts as possible: no match-tuned hammers or sears with wimpy engagement; no ambi safeties with their relatively wimpy dovetail shafts. Springfield does a nice job with the narrow .38/.9mm firing pin being the only major departure; Rock Island is nice because they don't bog you down with unnecessary tight tolerances; Ruger is nice because they have straight GI internals but somewhat enhanced externals and a plunger tube integral to the frame.

I do love me some DA revolvers. They are a very durable breed in general, but when they quit, it's not uncommon for them to quit HARD. . .and then the search for specialized whoop-de-doos and a man with the know how to use them begins. Without any kind of support structure, that constant getting rotation of six separate holes to lock up aligning the same way each and every time forever is more consecutive miracles than I'd want to count on long term.

[sawinredneck]

So far this thread hasn't surprised me one bit. Everyone is claiming their pet jewel is the best out there. In all reality one canot really say for example if the Glock with 5 rounds thru it or 5K rounds thru it is going to fail or be any better than say someones S&W with an oversized magazine sticking out the bottom of it. You can be assured that when it hits the fan their all going to fail sooner or later and we probably won't have a parts stash for our prized pet unless we bought 2 of said prized animal.

So, buy two and strap on two holsters and use the one on your dominent side. The other is your backup and now you still have a 50/50 chance of failure.
I do not own any of the guns I suggested. I've owned Glocks, decent guns for sure, but in this scenario I'd want all stainless steel. I suggested the Sig because it's proven and rock solid. There are also some good deals on used P226's with everyone going to the flavor of the month.
An 8 shot revolver in SS, how can you really go wrong? Simple, durable and multiple types of ammo choices in .38/.357. He could hunt squirrels up to decent sized deer by changing the load. Seemed to me it met the OP's criteria.
I have a 1911, they are too finicky for me to choose in this scenario with limited ammo choices, certainly in 10mm.
I also have a Ruger LCR, great gun for what it's intended for, but I wouldn't want it in this scenario either, it might drop a deer, but it'd be sketchy at best imo.

[Petrol & Powder]

6bg6ba - I have to agree. Everyone is selling their own pet gun.

The reason I asked the OP to clarify his question was to get to the root issue. The OP is NOT looking for some prepper toy for the end of the world but rather a handgun that will survive extensive training. That's a good path to go down.
There's a sticky on the forum concerning 75,000+ rounds through a S&W model 27. I think something along that line is closer what the OP is seeking.
There are a LOT of guns that will survive extensive use.

[garym1a2]

My old Ruger MK2, best Rabbit handgun I have. Besides I would have my AR for protection.

[Forrest r]

Some interesting reading, a link to thread similar to this one from another website. It's titled " High round count pistols (100,000+) observations". The poster of the thread owns a gun rental in Las Vegas. People come in and can rent pistols, rifles, uzi's, etc. They rent most of the common pistols out there, brands like glock/cz/sig/1911's/revolvers/s&w mp's/etc. The pistols get 1000's of rounds thru them every month and the owner of the shop (Henderson Defense) was kind enough to post real world results from the firearms he rents.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_High-round-count-pistols--100-000---observations.html

The only pistol I have really put thru the ringer was a s&w 586-1. I've shot a lot of rounds in 1911's but most of them were "target" loads and the 1911's were routinely maintained. That 586 on the other had was just a workhorse getting a steady diet of anything from mild to wild with most of the reloads being wild. It pretty much got a steady diet of the lyman 358311's and WW820 pull down powder. Pat's reloads used to go to the local gunshows and I'd buy #32 cases (multiple times) of WW820 off of them. Needless to say, free lead & cheap powder turned into a lot of trigger time.

At the end of the day the s&w 586 got extremely used and abused:
100,000 round mark, got sent back to s&w & had the timing redone and the forcing cone re-cut
200,000 round mark, got sent back to s&w & had the timing redone and the forcing cone re-cut
275,000 round mark the bbl gave up the ghost and the cylinders were ringed where the carbon ring forms in them. It was loosing over 100fps with the same loads it's shot/chronographed for decades.

There's a lot of reading in that link above with real world results with 30+ different pistols/mfg's. Along with 22 conversions, 22 pistols, suppressors & pictures of the firearms/failures.

[tazman]

Perhaps a bit of further clarification is in order. Any SHTF scenario for me will be short term and fairly close to my home. I am too old and no longer mobile enough to consider any long distance or long term problems.
I am thinking more along the lines of needing to keep things together for a couple or three weeks under stressful circumstances rather than TEOTWAWKI.
I plan on shooting the handgun(s) plenty to stay familiar with them and as accurate as I can be. I just need to be able to rely on them to get me through whatever problems arise. I want to purchase once and use them for the rest of my life if possible.
I am currently shooting 200-400 rounds of pistol ammunition each week to get and keep my accuracy up where it needs to be. I started shooting handguns too late in life to be really good at it. I don't have the eyes, steadiness, and co-ordination any more to be super accurate. I just do the best I can.
Those are the reliability and durability parameters.

[alamogunr]

Several respondents mentioned Gen 4 Glock 19. I have had a Glock 19 since Gen 1. Why, from a practical standpoint, is Gen 4 more desirable than Gen 1-3? In the context of this thread.

[skeet1]

Although I am a S&W revolver fan and think they are the best revolver out there and would probably choose a model 10 as my choice, I think that for all around reliability, ease of getting ammo, and ruggedness I will have to go for the Glock 17. I carried one for 20 years and shot thousands of round without a hiccup. I think they are without a doubt the ugliest weapon made but to me they are a tool not a thing of beauty.

Ken

[jmort]

That is a great thread that was linked

"Some of the most recent Glocks to fail have done so in the 20,000-30,000 round count range. We have at least five Glock down right now because of cracked slides"

So the Glock Fanboys would have been really happy with the thread and then the reality sets in. The 92 proven to be kick ****. The 320s looking like German Perfection

[BZimm]

My S&W Highway Patrolman. Two calibers right?

My Glock 23 with 9mm, .40 cal and 357Sig barrels. Three calibers right?

Two very reliable guns and FIVE caliber options.

Do I win?

[tdoyka]

revolver
ruger sbh in 44mag(4 5/8" barrel)

semi
1911 style(don't matter) in 45acp

[dragon813gt]

I have to laugh at the people suggesting a 1911. They are finicky guns that require hand fitting the parts. They require quite a bit of maintenance as well. Time has passed the model by. They are still great guns but in the context of this thread I don't know why anyone is suggesting one.

The real answer is; there is no best. Buy and use what works for you. Personally I'd buy a Beretta 92 variant and follow the maintenance instructions. Or buy a Glock along w/ a bunch of spare parts. The thing about them is that there isn't a lot of parts in them to fail. The parts are cheap enough to have replacements on hand. Kind of like an AR15.

I could tell you what my favorite pistols are. But, I never attempt to take the triggers apart because they are a puzzle and then some. One would eventually break and I'd have to fix it. I can change out the trigger on a Glock quite easily. Ease of working on should be high on the list.

[Harter66]

My S&W Highway Patrolman. Two calibers right?

My Glock 23 with 9mm, .40 cal and 357Sig barrels. Three calibers right?

Two very reliable guns and FIVE caliber options.

Do I win?

I have an N frame with a bubba head space tab chambered to headspace 45 Schofield on the case mouth while retaining it's moon clips .
45 AR, Schofield, GAP ,ACP , Roland and a couple of others . So 1 gun 4 cartridges .
Have a BlackHawk 45 Colts Convertible 45 Colts , Schofield . An ACP cylinder and a 3rd cylinder waiting for me to make up my mind what it should be . There's 4 more options in a single action that will share ammo with the double action . Both of which will feed 2 completely satisfactory lever action rifles and and auto carbine . If I could lay my paws on a moonclip compatable 357 and a 9mm carbine to go with the 38/357 1894C then I'd have another trio capable of sharing 3 factory common as dirt cartridges and a revolver that would run 4 dirt common cartridges and 6-7 less common but commercially available cartridges from 38 Short on through 357 mag via 38 super auto .

[35remington]

Laugh? The 1911 was designed for drop in parts for armorer service at the field level. Any hand fitting needed is minor and on most pistols is not needed. They go for a long time without breakage. Since that is my experience and that of others that recommended it, I will let others here be amused on their time, not mine.

I know better.

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Laugh? The 1911 was designed for drop in parts for armorer service at the field level. Any hand fitting needed is minor and on most pistols is not needed. They go for a long time without breakage. Since that is my experience and that of others that recommended it, I will let others here be amused on their time, not mine.

I know better.

35remington, you are absolutely right. In all the years I have owned them the only part I hand fitted was a beavertail grip safety. All stock parts are drop-in.

[jmort]

"I know better."

Sure you do. Keep knowing better
So the 1911 is doing 300,000 to 500,000 rounds
Without a single part replacement
That is the discussion
Not how many times you can fix the gun

[35remington]

As far as maintenance goes, all I do is clean my 1911's. Somebody is misstating things immensely, and it ain't me. I used to shoot in the basement of the National Guard armory in Lincoln and the range beater 1911's ran and ran and ran. Parts were randomly mixed together when the guns were group cleaned in the parts washer.

Too many here hypothesize without foundation. Not one of those guns had anything but parts that dropped in without fitting. My suggestion is to ask about everyone's experience before you take the word of "experts." Too often these types have an agenda that distorts reality.

As here.

[jmort]

"I know better."

Sure you do. Keep knowing better
So the 1911 is doing 300,000 to 500,000 rounds
Without a single part replacement
That is the discussion
Not how many times you can fix the gun

Wake up you are dreaming.

[35remington]

No gun runs to huge round counts without breaking some parts. The point is being able to distinguish the Koolaid drinkers with an agenda from those willing to state the facts of the matter.

So ask yourself.....what flavor is your Koolaid? Just what are you stating that isn't so?

[35remington]

Jmort, how long have you been in the habit of quoting yourself and then telling yourself you are dreaming?

Your post 62 is getting bizarre. Perhaps you are getting too personally invested. Who threw the 300-500K numbers but you? Then you take issue with your own quote and your own made up numbers that I did not say? Is arguing with yourself something you commonly do?


The discussion is reliability and durability. Interpretation of that point is the prerogative of the poster.

[jmort]

I just read the thread that was linked
Glocks, no surprise best with 320s coming on strong
Recent prduction Glocks not so good
92s kick **** somewhat a surprise for me, but not really
Sig 1911 standing tall
This is based on a rental range with specific guns
Read the entire 14 page thread and take it for what is worth.
I say it is worth paying attention to the thread.

[jmort]

How about just getting here
"The Glock gets used probably 10X as much as our Beretta M92's so it's not a fair to say the Beretta is more reliable (see below). We don't use aftermarket slides on our Glocks so I couldn't give you any info those because Glock will replace our cracked slides under warranty. Also, I don't meant to give the impression that breake slides all the time but it would be fair to say that they get at least 100,000 rounds before cracking. "

[35remington]

Great. Good for you. I am happy you have an opinion. I get displeased when you try to make an argument about what you want it to be rather than what I actually said.

Next time you want to have an argument with yourself, keep me and the things I did not say out of it.

[45 Dragoon]

Ok, just a thought.
In a real SHTF scenario, how long would ammo be available? How much ammo do you have for such an event? What about black powder rifle/Revolvers? With a limited supply of cartridges, would you really be in a "reloading " situation with powder, bullets, primers etc . . .
Maybe a B.P. revolver with cartridge conversions in 45C. and 45 acp? This would allow you to fall back on the C&B cylinder/cylinders if/as needed.
Of course you would have caps to consider but what would be easiest to stash/lug around? Lead, powder and Caps.
Mike

[jmort]

I don't own a Glock
But maybe I should
But based on the most recent posts in that real world thread,
It may be time for a few 320s
It appears they run real good

[BZimm]

:popcorn: [smilie=b:

[45 Dragoon]

BZimm, you'll get a concussion doing that!

Mike

[dragon813gt]

The OP stated a SHTF scenario. In that case you may not have a room full of tools to fix broken parts in your gun. This is one of the reasons I "laughed" at the recommendation of a 1911. To work on a Glock you need one of these.
https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/181/181144.jpg

Beyond that you'll need a rear sight pusher and a front sight socket. And that's it. You don't need a lot to work on them. I'm not a Glock fan by any means. I'm a fan of their simplicity. Which in a SHTF scenario will pay off in spades.

No gun is going to run forever w/out breaking parts. I've seen more issues w/ 1911s in my short life than any other pistol. They can be picky when it comes to ammo selection. This is another plus for a Glock that will fire anything you put in it. They aren't the nicest looking or shooting guns but they are work horses. Same can be said for the Beretta 92s. But they require more tools to work on.

[Texas by God]

Of handguns I don't presently own I would pick a S&W m10 and a Ruger P90. Reliability & accuracy in spades.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[tdoyka]

Laugh? The 1911 was designed for drop in parts for armorer service at the field level. Any hand fitting needed is minor and on most pistols is not needed. They go for a long time without breakage. Since that is my experience and that of others that recommended it, I will let others here be amused on their time, not mine.

I know better.

my grandpap got a 1911 colt (or remington?) sometime in 1944. (he was one of the first to to get off on omaha beach). he took it thru the war and then home. i don't know how many rounds it took, but it is somewhere in the 10's of thousands. he kept it till he died, then my dad has it. he takes it out once a week and he goes thru 100 or more cartridges. i and my dad, have never seen the 1911 break or go to a gunsmith. for a 73 year old semi, that has never never seen a gunsmith, i find it incredible and i wish it comes to me.

[Groo]

Groo here
If you are looking for the strongest,simplest gun, the ruger single action is it.
Will you break parts, yes, but once the breakin is over [where you find the bad parts] the single action will run the longest with the least mantainance.
I did NOT say the best CCW gun, or SHTF gun, or most powerful,or most accurate,or hicap,or fastest reloading/shooting.
But the tuffest all around gun [ you could use it as a hammer if you HAD to]

[6bg6ga]

I'll try this again....... there is no best. Make sure you have plenty of back up parts for the pet of your choice. Stock up on ALL internals plus anything else you think you might need or better yet buy two of your pet and you will have enough parts to last a long time.

[35remington]

In a SHTF scenario, good luck finding any spare parts you do not already have. Glocks included. The 1911 needs zero tools to disassemble save a screwdriver to remove the grips. Those are at least as common as a drift.

If your Glock breaks a locking block or sear you will not find a replacement at your looted Ace Hardware store.


What is amusing is people trying to make invalid points on subjects they are poorly informed on.

[DerekP Houston]

All of this sounds like a good excuse to tell my wife I need duplicates of all the guns I own, 2 is 1, 1 is none after all. Rather have a working set of spare parts than a box.

[sawinredneck]

I'm not badmouthing the 1911, it's a great gun and I've owned several and still own a Delta Elite. But they are notoriously finiky with ammo, IF I had a storehouse of ammo that my gun liked, no problem, but depending on what ammo I could find for one lying around or scrounge, it wouldn't be my first pick.
That's just being honest from someone that does shoot one.

[dragon813gt]

All of this sounds like a good excuse to tell my wife I need duplicates of all the guns I own, 2 is 1, 1 is none after all. Rather have a working set of spare parts than a box.

Now you're getting it [emoji23]

[garym1a2]

With Glocks expect to replace springs every 10k rounds or so.

[DerekP Houston]

all this talk almost makes me want to buy a glock just to see how many rounds it can take

[35remington]

In a SHTF scenario, only those that have ammo can keep their ammo. A guy with a lead
pot and mould makes the ammo his gun likes. A guy with money stockpiles what his gun likes.

[dragon813gt]

all this talk almost makes me want to buy a glock just to see how many rounds it can take

Can your bank account support the effort? The gun is the cheap part. While I own a Glock it's definitely not my favorite. Same for the 1911s I own. But in a true SHTF scenario where you don't have a choice either would be fine.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'd like to keep the "SHTF" scenario in perspective here. I don't think the OP is contemplating some bizarre dystopian future world like the one depicted in a Terminator movie.
The situation described by the OP was a gun that is heavily used in practice for years that may be called upon to fire a few rounds in an emergency.

Finding a handgun that can survive tens of thousands of rounds and still remain reliable isn't that difficult. Some handguns have proven to be capable of firing huge numbers of rounds before failure. In this thread alone, evidence has been offered that N-frame and L-frame S&W revolvers have survived in excess of 100K rounds. Glocks have survived 100K+ rounds.
There are a lot of quality firearms that will live for 10's of thousands of rounds and remain reliable. The OP gave a figure of 300-400 rounds per week. At 400 rounds/week and 52 weeks a year, than equals 20,800 rounds/year. It would take you 4.8 years to reach 100,000 rounds if you fired 400 rounds/week with NO time off. At 200 rounds per week it would take almost 10 years to reach the 100K mark.

[35remington]

Agreed. Especially given the ammo needed to wear out the gun costs way more than the gun does.

[Bzcraig]

I don't own a Glock
But maybe I should
But based on the most recent posts in that real world thread,
It may be time for a few 320s
It appears they run real good

I've been thinking the same way myself, in 45acp. So since we're like minded and you stated "it may be time for a few 320s" send me one so I can do a proper reliability and durability test. :Fire:

[tazman]

All of this sounds like a good excuse to tell my wife I need duplicates of all the guns I own, 2 is 1, 1 is none after all. Rather have a working set of spare parts than a box.

I like the way you are thinking here. Could you call up my wife and explain this idea to her please?
I'm afraid of what would happen if I tried it myself. It might be weeks before I could make it to the range again.

[jmort]

Let's see
I always by in twos

[Bazoo]

For sheer reliability and durability, no break in period, no maintenance Id say a police trade in glock 17 or 22.

Upon further thought, i'd add a Ruger p95 also.

[Bill*B]

Handguns are intended to deal with a surprise threat, or - should you find yourself in a rapidly deteriorating situation - to create enough diversion to allow you to get the hell out of Dodge, before you get killed. Whatever you have at the time will suffice. They are not primary weapons, and are rarely fired in anger. A little pistol you always have with you is the ideal. HEY - just my armchair opinion!

[robertbank]

I would go with a 92 Beretta. Dependable, tested and accurate. As a bonus it shoots lead.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

I just waded through all 14 pages of that durability report from a gun rental shooting range that was linked here a couple of pages ago. That was quite an article. Very informative.
Thanks to Forrest r for posting it.
As you might expect, I already own a couple of the handguns mentioned in this thread. I am not posting anything about what my own experience is because I want to hear opinions from everyone else.
The responses have been great. lease keep them coming.

[6bg6ga]

I'm going to cheat here. I'm keeping all my guns when it hits the fan. I have 7) 1911's some that shoot everything you load in them and some that only shoot round nose. I have a 357 which is a 686-6 S&W. We have 380's two of them. We have 5) different 9mm's not counting my Glock 23 with a 9mm conversion barrel. 45LC 25-5 S&W, Desert Eagle 44 mag, S&W 629 and then we have the AR's in 5.56 and 300 black a number of both.

I have tons of wheel weight lead and a Ballisti-cast Mark IV fitted with Magma bullet molds. Also a few hundred thousand rounds of cast sized bullets in assorted diameters and weights. I have back up parts for ALL handguns and enough AR parts to last the next 25-30 years easily.

I'd say I have almost enough and probably could be in the top 25 here for SHIF guns ammunition and supplies.

[garym1a2]

I seen Gen 3 glock 22s police turnins for sell in Jax Fl for $279.
Nice condition with steel night sites and 3 mags. Get a 9mm conversion barrel and some 9mm mags and you have 2 calibers covered with one gun.M G22 and G35 both have conversion barrels and are veriy reliable.


For sheer reliability and durability, no break in period, no maintenance Id say a police trade in glock 17 or 22.

Upon further thought, i'd add a Ruger p95 also.

[garym1a2]

I would not expect Glocks to last 100k rounds without a few minor spare parts.
My Gen 3, G22 has had the guide rod broke, operator error. Trigger return spring broke at around 10 to 15k rounds. Trigger plunger safety spring gets weak. With by G21 gen 3 its been a tank except for a $3 trigger return spring at a little over 10K. My high round Gen4 G35 had a firing pin go dull and get misfire. No ideal on round count with this gun as it came from a fellow USPSA shooter that shoots a lot.

[QUOTE=Petrol & Powder;4125578] Glocks have survived 100K+ rounds.

[tazman]

I'm going to cheat here. I'm keeping all my guns when it hits the fan. I have 7) 1911's some that shoot everything you load in them and some that only shoot round nose. I have a 357 which is a 686-6 S&W. We have 380's two of them. We have 5) different 9mm's not counting my Glock 23 with a 9mm conversion barrel. 45LC 25-5 S&W, Desert Eagle 44 mag, S&W 629 and then we have the AR's in 5.56 and 300 black a number of both.

I have tons of wheel weight lead and a Ballisti-cast Mark IV fitted with Magma bullet molds. Also a few hundred thousand rounds of cast sized bullets in assorted diameters and weights. I have back up parts for ALL handguns and enough AR parts to last the next 25-30 years easily.

I'd say I have almost enough and probably could be in the top 25 here for SHIF guns ammunition and supplies.

I like your supply situation. It's a good thing to be prepared. My only question is, if you have to move and can't take it all with you, what do you take?

[Lloyd Smale]

id say out of the factory guns your not going to get any stouter then a redhawk of some kind. Semi autos? For the most part most of them are pretty darned well engineered. If held down and made to choose id probably say a 19 glock.

[rking22]

Good read here. I agree that you should not depend on your one copy of (insert preferred firearm) to stand up to 100000 rnds without some basic maintenance parts. In the industrial manufacturing world we call them "wear parts". There are no doubt some examples that do it but you will not see that on average. Also the gun will provide better performance if kept in spec.
That said, pick the revolver , research the wear parts and failure modes and stock the needed parts. Don't forget the tiny pins that could be dropped into the black hole on disassembly! When I order a set of pins and springs for a citori I make sure I have an extra FP retaining pin. It doesn't wear, but it is small and can " evaporate" . Buck fifty to just pick up the extra and finish the job vs cussin and looking for the dang thing!
Now you have the service parts ,learn to do the service! I never want to be at someone's mercy for servicing an important tool if it can be avoided.
OK to answer the OP ops question, and I don't take it as SHTF , more constant usage with a long mean time between failure. I do this regularly as a clay target coach. Not unusual to shoot 150 rnds a day 5 to 6 days a week 8 to 10 months a year. 25000 rnds a year for years at a time we want a durable design with available service parts and a known track record.
So,..For the revolver, Ruger Gp100 4inch stainless for me. Modular makes for easy service, built like a tank means little chance of total failure. 38/357 , over a century of history of use, but said. I bought mine in the mid 80s, still have it too, but my Favorite would be M10 Smith.
Auto would probably be my 96D with the extra 9mm barrel and lock. Not because I love it but because it is relatively simple as autos go and being B92/M9 derivative there are tons of redily available service parts around. It will shoot 9 or 40, neither a favorite but one or the other can be expected to be available in a shortage like the last. Cz 75 would be my favorite but mines a very well used clone. Also these are both DAO, by preference kinda like a revolver:)
Note how I avoided the Block/1911 firestorm :)

[Plate plinker]

SHTF time I want what my local PD runs, because well you know..........[smilie=1: they have stuff I might wish to borrow.

[tazman]

SHTF time I want what my local PD runs, because well you know..........[smilie=1: they have stuff I might wish to borrow.

I like that idea except for one thing. I live in a small town that doesn't have it's own police force. We have a single part time officer for weekends. The rest of the time, officers come from the county seat which is 20 minutes away at least unless a patrol car just happens to be nearby.
I will need to take care of immediate concerns by myself. Even though I live in town, I have no really close by neighbors. Nearest is about 100-150 yards away. They may never know something bad is happening unless the gunshots wake them up.

[6bg6ga]

I like your supply situation. It's a good thing to be prepared. My only question is, if you have to move and can't take it all with you, what do you take?


Well, unless it hits real hard really fast I will have ammo in spots that are already picked out. The AR-15's the 5.56's will probably go. Anything in a NATO caliber will be going. Think about the NATO ammunition thing here and you will soon understand. As much as I dearly love my 357 or my 45LC they will be hidden. Only NATO calibers like I mentioned will go. Oh, forgot the 308 FAL.

I have totes already loaded and ready to be put into a deuce and a half if the need arises. There are a number of us that have thought this out and have devised a plan.

[tazman]

Nice to have a support group. Nothing like that around here that I am aware of.
I understand the NATO thing completely. I own rifles in 223, 308, 243, and 30-06 not counting 22lr.
I also have handguns in the common calibers.
I have a better selection of rifles than I do of handguns at the moment. That is one of the reasons why I asked the original question. I may want to pick up another handgun.
Any of my difficulties will have to be handled close to home though, and that includes uninvited visitors.
I intend to practice with my handguns a lot to stay proficient. I need durability so they still work when needed even after years of use for practice.

[Petrol & Powder]

................
I intend to practice with my handguns a lot to stay proficient. I need durability so they still work when needed even after years of use for practice.


/\Thank You tazman. /\

Having a handgun that will survive years of heavy practice and remain reliable, is a worthy criteria.

Having a large cache of weapons and ammo in preparation for some Armageddon like collapse of civilization is getting more than just a little out of touch with reality. I have a large collection of firearms, as do other members of this forum but I assembled that collection because I enjoy shooting, reloading and collecting firearms. If you amass a large cache of weapons in preparation for some weird dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie; you might want to take step back and think about that.

[tazman]

/\Thank You tazman. /\

Having a handgun that will survive years of heavy practice and remain reliable, is a worthy criteria.

Having a large cache of weapons and ammo in preparation for some Armageddon like collapse of civilization is getting more than just a little out of touch with reality. I have a large collection of firearms, as do other members of this forum but I assembled that collection because I enjoy shooting, reloading and collecting firearms. If you amass a large cache of weapons in preparation for some weird dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie; you might want to take step back and think about that.

I used to think like that and did get a bunch of ammo and guns. Then life intruded and the weapons got sold to pay hospital bills for my wife. The ammo got sold or shot up over the years. Now I keep just enough on hand that I don't need to load any for a couple of weeks.
Nowadays my idea of SHTF is taking care of a small group(3-5) of intruders who wish to harm me and my family. I am too old and out of shape to have any realistic chance of surviving something really bad.
I just enjoy shooting and trying to be as accurate as I can. My fantasies now are about shooting one hole groups at 25 yards or with the rifle at 300 yards.

[sawinredneck]

/\Thank You tazman. /\

Having a handgun that will survive years of heavy practice and remain reliable, is a worthy criteria.

Having a large cache of weapons and ammo in preparation for some Armageddon like collapse of civilization is getting more than just a little out of touch with reality. I have a large collection of firearms, as do other members of this forum but I assembled that collection because I enjoy shooting, reloading and collecting firearms. If you amass a large cache of weapons in preparation for some weird dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie; you might want to take step back and think about that.
I'll slightly disagree here. I DID make a couple of firearms purchases that were out of the norm for me, before this last election. My concern was two fold, I was fearful I wouldn't be able to purchase them, and I wasn't sure how much unrest there would be after the election. I didn't go totally crazy, but purchased around 300rds for each and immediately set myself up to reload for them.
This election is also what led me to get into casting, and joining this forum. I could foresee the ammo shortages getting much worse if Hillary won.
Then with the civil unrest we are seeing now, I'm glad I made those purchases and need to amass some more ammo, not hundreds of thousands of rounds, but certainly a thousand of each caliber I have.

[tazman]

A thousand rounds of ammo for each of your firearms isn't unreasonable in the least. That's only a few weeks shooting if you practice much at all.
The only ammo I have much of at the moment is 22lr. We all saw that shortage last way too long.
I also purchased a couple of firearms at about the same time you did because I didn't know if I would be able to get them after the election.

[snowwolfe]

As far as handguns, I had to return 3 of the last 4 Rugers I purchased to the factory to be fixed. Worse record of any firearm company I have owned. Never had to return a Glock or S&W. So my choice would be S&W or Glock.

[dragon813gt]

As far as handguns, I had to return 3 of the last 4 Rugers I purchased to the factory to be fixed.

Sent the last five I bought back in w/ one being a rifle. They are on my do not buy sight unseen list. Which coincidentally is made up entirely of just Ruger. None of them should have gotten past QC. Hopefully the market slowdown will cause them to have quality control in house. Not use the end user for it.

[gnostic]

Yes it does. Wonder what broke on that 28.

I'm not sure, the cylinder won't lock closed. I cleaned it of dirt and can't see anything that might keep it from locking up...

[tazman]

I'm not sure, the cylinder won't lock closed. I cleaned it of dirt and can't see anything that might keep it from locking up...

The only time that ever happened to me, the ejector rod had come unscrewed and was too long to allow the cylinder to close.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're on the Queen Mary 2 sailing across the Atlantic there's a really good chance you will make it to your destination. However, we still equip the ship with lifeboats, put supplies in those lifeboats and conduct some lifeboat drills. That's sound preparation designed to improve the odds of a favorable outcome if there's an emergency.

If you wear a life jacket, keep your pockets stuffed with water bottles and granola bars and have a satellite phone duct taped to your chest; for every minute of the 7 day crossing; you might be in paranoid mode.

The same analogy applies to amassing weapons for some type incredible civil disorder and the collapse of society.

I'm prepared but I don't have some illusion that I'll hold off a city full of rioters.

[jetinteriorguy]

I'm an old Boy Scout, and I always took the motto 'Be Prepared' seriously. And, I am my fathers son, I remember driving way up north in Canada as a kid to go fishing and he carried four spare tires and a tire repair kit and a hand pump. Plus a well stocked tool kit, jumper cables, extra oil, and a couple of cans of gas. All of this in a 63' Olds pulling a pop up camper with a 14 foot boat on top of the camper. Man, that car was a tank.

[robertbank]

If you're on the Queen Mary 2 sailing across the Atlantic there's a really good chance you will make it to your destination. However, we still equip the ship with lifeboats, put supplies in those lifeboats and conduct some lifeboat drills. That's sound preparation designed to improve the odds of a favorable outcome if there's an emergency.

If you wear a life jacket, keep your pockets stuffed with water bottles and granola bars and have a satellite phone duct taped to your chest; for every minute of the 7 day crossing; you might be in paranoid mode.

The same analogy applies to amassing weapons for some type incredible civil disorder and the collapse of society.

I'm prepared but I don't have some illusion that I'll hold off a city full of rioters.

Best reply on the thread!

I live in a city of 13K and there is not enough wildlife to support 10% of the population here. If the SHTF in the US and spills over to Canada, I think I have a decent book and chair I can sink into with a nice single malt.

I only need three bullets when that times comes as I have a dog. On balance I think I will work hard to ensure the time never comes. Rather hope you folks do as well.

Take Care

Bob

[bob208]

my thoughts on some answers.
every one is picking the gun they use. maybe because that is the one they have used for years with out problems and already have dies mold and brass for. so they would not pick a new plastic wonder.

maybe I am just lucky but I have 20 rugers never had a problem never had to ream a cylinder or send one back. I know 15 other people in real life with the same results.

as far as shtf I am with our Canadian friends. I will set back on our mountain and watch the glow of the cities burn in the far distance.

I am an old boy scout also. when I go on a long trip. I put an extra spar tire in the back of the truck plus a full can of gas.

[Tracy]

I have to laugh at the people suggesting a 1911. They are finicky guns that require hand fitting the parts. They require quite a bit of maintenance as well. Time has passed the model by. They are still great guns but in the context of this thread I don't know why anyone is suggesting one.

The real answer is; there is no best. Buy and use what works for you. Personally I'd buy a Beretta 92 variant and follow the maintenance instructions. Or buy a Glock along w/ a bunch of spare parts. The thing about them is that there isn't a lot of parts in them to fail. The parts are cheap enough to have replacements on hand. Kind of like an AR15.

I could tell you what my favorite pistols are. But, I never attempt to take the triggers apart because they are a puzzle and then some. One would eventually break and I'd have to fix it. I can change out the trigger on a Glock quite easily. Ease of working on should be high on the list.
I literally laughed out loud when I read this.
First, 1911: the Internet thinks 1911s are finicky and require tinkering, hand fitting and a shop full of tools in the same way that the Internet thinks AKs are totally immune to any kind of failure. Both ideas are incorrect. I've owned and/or used quite a few 1911s, mostly on the inexpensive side including a few of the cheapest ones money can or could buy. All of them have been reliable. None of them have broken down. There are more and cheaper parts available worldwide for the 1911 than for any other pistol in the world, if you ever even need any parts. I've swapped parts and replaced parts on various 1911s (because I'm a tinkerer, not because they needed it) with no need for hand fitting.
Back before the Internet and before Glocks and Beretta 92s even existed, I used to believe what I read about the 1911 having a weak point in the barrel link. But then I realized that you can buy ten spare barrel links for less than 20 bucks if you're worried about it. I'm not, since I have never seen nor heard of an actual instance of barrel link breakage.
As for the shop full of tools, the 1911 requires fewer tools to work on than a Glock. That's because a 1911 requires no tools to completely detail strip. It is its own tool box: http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/toolbox.htm
All this stuff you hear about 1911s being finicky and requiring tuning refer to high dollar match guns that are built with tight clearances for target accuracy; not to duty 1911s. Comparing the reliability of something like that to a duty Glock is disingenuous at best. My 1911s have all been fed unsized tumble-lubed cast bullets and even 255 grain Keith revolver bullets. I've always heard that 1911s shoot cast bullets like they were designed for them. I have found that to be true.

That leads us to Glocks. I have two Glocks, each with an extra aftermarket barrel to enable it to be more cast bullet friendly. There have been more than enough discussions about cast bullets in Glocks so that I don't need to hash it out here. Suffice to say that a typical out of the box 1911 is a better cast bullet shooter than a typical out of the box Glock.
Now, the reason I have a couple of Glocks is because police turn-in Glocks are cheap. Almost as cheap as a brand new basic, lower-tier (RIA etc.) 1911. Also mags and parts are fairly cheap. Not as cheap as 1911 mags and (non-high-end) parts, but cheap relative to most other auto pistols. And there are a few (as opposed to a few hundred for the 1911) manufacturers of parts for Glocks.
But here's the main reason I would take a 1911 over a Glock for longevity: Glocks have way too many plastic and stamped sheetmetal parts. I know that the younger generation has been "taught" by the enviro-wacko leaning public education system that plastics last forever, but it just ain't so. UV, solvents, heat, oils, flexing and who knows what else eventually degrades any polymer to the point of failure. 1st gen Glocks are not very old, but quite a few of them have already failed due to degradation.
Anyone who is still on the fence about 1911 vs. Glock longevity really should strip a Glock and a 1911 and compare all the functional parts.

Beretta 92/M9: The US military specified slide replacement at 3,000 rounds and frame replacement at 5,000 rounds as a result of actual testing. Enough said.

Personally, for durability and reliability I wouldn't choose any autoloader. My top choice would be a three-screw Blackhawk in .45 Colt. It would be nice to have a spare .45 ACP cylinder too. As a backup I would take a Ruger Old Army, because I can make my own powder and percussion caps and it doesn't need cartridge cases.

[Shingle]

I hate to be unimaginative but the glock 34 would get my only vote. The armory where i work has glock 17,18c,19 & 34 trainers that have over 100,000 rds each and have been treated like red headed step children. The things still empty mag after mag non stop.

[Outpost75]

Amusing to read all of the above. You would have loved the cigar smoke and booze twinged discussions between TRADOC and ARDC in the 1980s. Seems Barry McCaffery won... Now the Army is going to buy 42K of the 35mm MXT135 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System to arm the guys at the tip of the spear. A $12,000 weapon what shoots $45 a pop HE-Frag ammo to kill a $5 enemy who once he figures things out will make increased use of human shields so the new toy will result in another 4-5 civilian innocents wounded as collateral damage for each round set off.

I really doubt the range and effectiveness claims, all of us who ever used the M79 or M203 know better. Too heavy, too short range, not enough payload...Sure sounds like poor economy and lousy tactics, but reading all of the above, you guys all seem to want the Amazing Wonder Gun! Mel Tappan is causing mini earthquakes with his laughter!!!!

ME, I'll just take my Ruger Original Vaquero with .44-40, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders, squirting the .45s down the .44 barrel because it can, and as back-up I'll have my .357/9mm Blackhawk convertible, then I can use about any ammo out there that I can glean that falls off the alien spaceship or that I find in one of you guy's caches...

Just remember that if you stand and fight you'll never live to shoot'em all...

[tazman]

I really didn't intend to start a religious war about someone's favorite handgun.
I wanted to get opinions about a handgun I can shoot 200 rounds through each week for years and still be certain it will do it's job when an uninvited bad guy or two comes calling in the night(or afternoon, morning, etc).
Much of the information here is really good stuff and I appreciate it immensely. Opinions and experience are what I asked for after all.
I don't have experience with many of the firearms talked about in this thread. That is precisely why I asked the question and I thank you all for your replies.
Please keep the information coming.

[6bg6ga]

What is your liking? Wheel guns or semi-automatics tazman? What caliber do you wish to shoot? Do you wish to handload or purchase factory ammunition? Maybe a few answers on what you like would help obtain better recommendations.

[tazman]

I own and shoot both revolvers and semi-autos. I reload my own cast and so far have had excellent results with that.
As far as caliber, I like to stick with common, easily obtained calibers. I currently load for 38 Special, 357 mag, 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. My favorites are 38 Special, 9mm, and 45 ACP. I can't handle more powerful calibers due to arthritis in my wrists.
My handguns include several 38/357 revolvers, several 9mm semi-autos(Beretta, Taurus, 1911), one 9mm revolver(S&W 929 wonderful gun), and a couple of 45 ACP 1911 handguns.
My handguns tend to get a good workout every so often(mostly often) to maintain familiarity and proficiency plus I just enjoy using/shooting them. Any one gun won't see 5000 rounds a year but I shoot easily two to three times that much combined.
The only revolver type I have never had any luck with is single action revolvers(Ruger Blackhawks and Colt SSA clones). For some reason I just can't shoot them at all well and I have tried several different ones.
I probably already own the guns I will end up with.
I wanted to see if I was missing a good bet somewhere that I should try out, particularly since I have no experience with any striker fired pistol of any brand.
There is always something out there that I don't know about. The easiest way to find out is to ask.

[Petrol & Powder]

Quality handguns are probably a lot tougher than most people realize. Look at the sticky for the 75K+ rounds through a model 27.

Competition shooters easily put 10's of thousands of rounds through their revolvers and pistols each year. A Bullseye shooter that uses a model 14 for years or a PPC shooter that uses a 4" S&W model 66 for years are examples of simple solid guns. IDPA shooters put thousands of rounds through a stock service pistol. It's really not that high of a bar.

A stainless steel magnum revolver that was used with Special loads would have a huge margin of strength and be durable.
Glocks have proven to be capable of years of abuse and still work. The Beretta 92 has shown be reliable over many years in bad conditions. People shoot 1911 pistols for decades.
The bottom line is that a lot of handguns have proven to be capable of firing thousands of rounds a year for decades.
I would avoid magnum rounds for long term use in any gun, there's just not much to be gained other than accelerated wear, even in strong guns.

Will a particular gun that's been reliable for 20 + years and thousands upon thousands of rounds fail at a critical moment ? It could but the odds are really low. However, the user of that gun will be intimately familiar with that gun and likely that will be a far greater factor in the outcome of that critical event that the gun itself.

[tazman]

However, the user of that gun will be intimately familiar with that gun and likely that will be a far greater factor in the outcome of that critical event that the gun itself.

That's my plan right there.

[retread]

Been carrying this when hunting for 57 years. Shot a lot of small game with it. It has never failed to fire or experienced any other malfunctions.

Colt Frontier Buntline Scout.

202587

[Leadmelter]

Mine:
Argentine Colt 45, the pistol was given a once over by Trapper Gun
S&W Model 28 4" barrel, 586 with a 6" barrel. Fires everything u to 170 cast without a hitch.

[6bg6ga]

If I read thru the threads correctly you want the ability to defend if someone invades or comes to your home with ill in mind. This brings up the semi-automatic in my mind. My personal choice if I knew the offender number would be 3 or less would be a 1911. More than 3 means more rounds to expend if needed thus 9mm or 40 cal probably a Glock or something along this line. Having said this I keep a 9mm cheapy browning copy the CM9 Gen2 Sarsilmaz that I purchased from Classic Firearms. I have put probably 1K rounds thru it already with absolutely no problems. It feeds my pet load a 160gr rn and ejects them without a problem. Everything I feed it it runs thru. Its quite accurate also and I can easily make a 1-1.5" group at 25-30 yards. It holds I believe 17 rounds and its double/single action so the first trigger pull can be from hammer rest.

I keep either my Glock 23 with a 9mm barrel in it or the CM9 within reach in the kitchen if someone were to show up at my door without the best intentions.

[Artful]

Well, I have a problem with "long term" and poly/plastic's which all have an embrittlement problem given enough time. So I'll pass on a factory Glock but if you made one up with one of CNC metal frames it would be acceptable. Of course a 1911 would be a good choice. But in all instances you would want spare springs. Revolvers - Ruger coil springs beat flat springs and double action has many more parts to fail over a single action, so Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk or Virginia Dragoon would be my choices. Stainless steel construction preferred.

These should be able to be generational handguns, 1911's over a hundred years old have been shot without issue. You will find SAA's from Colt that are blackpowder era that still function even with flatsprings. You can choose shorter barrel models for concealment or long barrel models for more accuracy. If you can get a double action revolver (GP-100, etc) that you are confident to stay in time for 100K's rounds without gunsmithing - go for it.

[white eagle]

seems I never hang onto Ruger single actions very long
even custom ones
I do however have been able to hang onto a Sig 45 acp and a Smith model 29
they have shown promise in accuracy that I didn't have to work hard to achieve
or had to modify the existing platform to get
longevity well we shall see

[Artful]

Good luck with that white eagle
- my S&W 29 shoots very well
- but as I used it for several years as my sillywet gun I found out that it was more delicate than I thought
- and I had to have it gunsmithed (parts battering) and then I toned my loads down some.
- still going strong
- I now have a Ruger Redhawk but no longer a desire to sillywet

[Tracy]

I'm seeing quite a few folks choosing a Ruger Blackhawk, which was my choice as well. I prefer an old model because it has fewer parts; specifically it lacks the transfer bar that can break and put the gun out of commission. Almost never happens, but it can.
In my original vote I said an old model .45 Blackhawk with spare cylinder for .45 ACP. Ruger Old Army cap and ball as a backup because it needs no cases.

I'm gonna change that to my old model .357 Blackhawk with spare 9mm cylinder, still with the ROA as backup. Reason being .38 Special, .357 Mag and 9mm brass are more common than the bigger cases, use less powder and lead, and if I need to I could pull down larger rounds to repurpose the powder and lead. I would save the LP primers to use with the ROA (yes it works once you remove the anvil). And .357 Mag cases make effective black powder loads too, if necessary. This is extreme EOTWAWKI reloading btw. Doesn't have to be societal breakdown either; it could just be something that dries up ammo availability for awhile. Perhaps permanently, next time.
Try that with your Glock. It doesn't work. I know, because I did try it with my G21.

[bob208]

I agree with the .357-9mm . just add a conversion cylinder to the old army so it can use .45 .

[Petrol & Powder]

ONCE AGAIN - THE OP ISN'T PLANNING FOR SOME ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE !

Nor are we talking about some sort of dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie. We are NOT talking about some crazy "End of the world as we know it" scenario. We are NOT talking about some colossal breakdown of society in which firearms are rare and incredibly valuable. We are NOT talking about some remote place where parts, ammunition and components are impossible or nearly impossible to come by.

The OP is simply seeking advice about a handgun that can be used for years in practice that can be counted on to fire a few rounds in an emergency.

A gun that is durable enough to fire several hundred rounds per month and yet remain reliable enough to fire a FEW rounds on demand at any time. A gun that can be used for years and be reliable enough that the user can expect it to go bang when it needs to.

[tazman]

ONCE AGAIN - THE OP ISN'T PLANNING FOR SOME ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE !

Nor are we talking about some sort of dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie. We are NOT talking about some crazy "End of the world as we know it" scenario. We are NOT talking about some colossal breakdown of society in which firearms are rare and incredibly valuable. We are NOT talking about some remote place where parts, ammunition and components are impossible or nearly impossible to come by.

The OP is simply seeking advice about a handgun that can be used for years in practice that can be counted on to fire a few rounds in an emergency.

A gun that is durable enough to fire several hundred rounds per month and yet remain reliable enough to fire a FEW rounds on demand at any time. A gun that can be used for years and be reliable enough that the user can expect it to go bang when it needs to.

Exactly right

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[tazman]

A question that hasn't been asked yet ...

Do you plan on carrying the gun with you everywhere you go?

If so ... you need to find/pick a gun your comfortable carrying ... some people think a gun over 16oz is too heavy ... other's think a gun under 32oz is too light ... !!!

If you do not plan to carry all the time ... do you plan for multiple guns stashed at different locations?

I have a concealed carry gun already(model 60 S&W). The one this thread is about will usually be beside the bed, in the car(separate from concealed carry but falls under the same license), or as a critter defense pistol to be used against larger critters(coyotes, wild dogs, wild hogs, bobcats, cougars, and such) who decide they don't like me when I am hunting smaller game. Believe it or not, all of those critters reside in Illinois at or near where I hunt squirrels. The wild hogs are only a few miles away in the same county. All the others have been seen by me on the same farm where I hunt. The bobcats and cougar were there decades before the IDNR would admit they inhabited Illinois.
I expect this gun to be fired for practice a lot. I intend to be very familiar with it so when it is needed, I don't have to think about the mechanics of using it. It will be just like an extension of my hand.
I already have a couple of handguns tucked away around the house as well as a shotgun, but I may decide to upgrade them as opportunity and funds permit.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

......

[tazman]

Since you already carry a revolver ... to keep things the same I'd suggest a slightly larger version, but same caliber ...

S&W makes the L frame sized 686 (6 shot) plus a "+" version that holds 7 rounds of 357 ... or a N frame 327 or 627 which holds 8 shots of 357 ... pick a barrel length ... longer will allow for more velocity ... and handle the heavier 170+ grain boolits better, less recoil, if that is what your looking for ... depending on the hog situation, and size ... some may say a 357 is not enough gun, I've never shot one, so don't know ... I would think a few 180's should easily do the job though, especially through a 5"+ barrel ...

Same caliber of ammo, same manual of arms ... while I tend to have Ruger's ... the cylinder release is different .... the Ruger you push in, the S&W you slide .... keep it all the same, would be my suggestion.

That is a good point.
The similarity between how the safeties work is one reason I picked up a Taurus PT92 to complement my 1911. The Beretta 92fs safety works backwards.

[rking22]

And the Beretta 92D or 96D are slick slides, no safety or decocker, "da revolver with a magazine" . Grip angle isdifferent but the rest is a good match for those of us who like DA revolvers.

[Tracy]

ONCE AGAIN - THE OP ISN'T PLANNING FOR SOME ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE !

Nor are we talking about some sort of dystopian future that looks like a Mad Max movie. We are NOT talking about some crazy "End of the world as we know it" scenario. We are NOT talking about some colossal breakdown of society in which firearms are rare and incredibly valuable. We are NOT talking about some remote place where parts, ammunition and components are impossible or nearly impossible to come by.

The OP is simply seeking advice about a handgun that can be used for years in practice that can be counted on to fire a few rounds in an emergency.

A gun that is durable enough to fire several hundred rounds per month and yet remain reliable enough to fire a FEW rounds on demand at any time. A gun that can be used for years and be reliable enough that the user can expect it to go bang when it needs to.
Nobody said anything about zombie apocalypse. I specifically mentioned what we just came through: years of ammo and components being difficult to come by. Pretty hard to shoot 100,000 rounds through anything if ammo is hard to find and priced at a premium. And if everything's copacetic, who cares how long a plastic pistol lasts? Just buy another one when you need it.
Or, tellya what: you talk about whatever you want to talk about, and don't worry about what I talk about. Wasn't talking to you anyway. We're all in this discussion, and nobody made you the boss of it.

[white eagle]

Nobody said anything about zombie apocalypse. I specifically mentioned what we just came through: years of ammo and components being difficult to come by. Pretty hard to shoot 100,000 rounds through anything if ammo is hard to find and priced at a premium. And if everything's copacetic, who cares how long a plastic pistol lasts? Just buy another one when you need it.
Or, tellya what: you talk about whatever you want to talk about, and don't worry about what I talk about. Wasn't talking to you anyway. We're all in this discussion, and nobody made you the boss of it.

Are you sure ?

[tazman]

I have enough lead and wherewithal to keep myself shooting my reloads for at least 4-6 years without purchasing more(Not purchase supplies? Ha!). I was actually expecting to be dealing with a different set of political circumstances up until November so I invested in what I could find at then reasonable prices.
I do a lot of practicing with my 22lr in both rifle and handgun, but it doesn't give the same feel as a centerfire.
As I said in a previous post, I probably already own the weapons I will end up with. I want to know if I am missing a bet on something that I have no experience with. Hence the original question.
I don't know about what I don't know and haven't seen. That is why I ask for opinions and experience.
I don't think I ever went through the stage where I thought I knew everything. I have always sought out experts and experienced people in everything I have been interested in. Many of the best and most useful ideas I have come across came from people like the ones on this forum. People who have combined lifetimes of experience and are willing to share it.
I try not to ask stupid questions. I have certainly asked a lot of uninformed questions over the years, but that is how I learn.
I think at some point in the near future I will need to go to a range and rent a Glock for an hour or so to see if I might like one. I have zero(0) experience with them so that is probably the best way to get up close and personal with one and see if I like them.
Petrol and Powder is correct in that I am not planning for or preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse(there--I said it). That said, some of the better, long term gun ideas come from such thoughts so I am not going to reject any ideas out of hand just because of where they come from. That scenario parallels where I think I an heading to a certain extent. I just expect the world as we know it to be around long enough to supply me with spare parts and replacement guns for quite a while yet.
Please feel free to continue responding to this thread. I am finding the responses very interesting and thought provoking.

[6bg6ga]

I'll be honest here. I personally do not like Glocks yet I own two of them. The triggers if your used to a 1911 just plain suck. I realize I will draw fire with what I am going to say but the ONLY way I could even stand to shoot one was to invest $70.00 in goodies to make the trigger a 3lb instead of what felt like 8-10lbs. I bought the entire spring kit along with the block assembly that allows me to get rid of the over travel. Once that was done I found that with practice I could not only shoot reliably but accurate. The first Glock was a model 23 which is 40 cal. I also invested in a Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel along with 2) 9mm magazines for it.

The second Glock I purchased was a model 35 which comes with a decent trigger out of the box. I purchased it simply because it came with 3) aftermarket barrels and a comp along with the stock barrel. I promptly sold 2 of the barrels one of which was a 40 cal barrel and the other a 357 sig barrel. The barrel I have on it right now allows one to screw on a comp which does seem to help with recoil. Took it out the other day at 25 yards and shot a 1" 4 shot group and then managed to throw the 5th shot an inch outside of them. This is with a gun that I have put less than 100 rounds thru.
They will shoot but I still hate the triggers.

So, having said that I will also mention that IF you purchase a Glock I would buy a model 22 or 23 and then invest in the goodies I mentioned and also have a stock set of springs and stuff. I would look toward the law inforcement trade ins which you can get a good deal on. If you like 9mm I would invest in a aftermarket conversion barrel so you can shoot lead without a second thought. Yes, I do know that a lot of people have shot lead thru their stock Glock barrel myself included. Getting a model 22 or 23 allows you two calibers if you opt for the 9mm conversion barrel.

[Tracy]

I also have two Glocks. A G22 (full size .40) and a G21 (full size .45). I have Lone wolf barrels for both; the one for the G22 is 9mm conversion. I like the fact that police turn in Glocks are cheap and there's a lot of aftermarket support. I've bought Korean mags for way under $10 each.
But if I wanted a double stack "wunder-nine" type pistol that I expect to outlast me even if I shoot it extensively, I would get a steel-frame CZ-75 or clone. I know this because I do want one of those, and I did buy a steel-frame Canik CZ-75 clone.
If I wanted an autoloading pistol I could shoot extensively and expect to outlast me, along with the expectation that I can always get parts for it, cheaply and just about anywhere in the world, I would get a 1911. Do and did.
But I don't think any autoloader nor double action revolver is as durable and reliable as a Ruger Blackhawk, just as I don't think any autoloading rifle is as durable and reliable as a Mauser '98.

As for some zombie apocalypse, I don't recall seeing anyone mention anything of the kind until P&P blew a gasket over it. I do however remember the second half of Obama's term when it became nearly impossible to find primers and most (especially pistol) powders, not to mention percussion caps... and then pretty much stayed that way for a few years. I didn't run out of primers, powder, lead, ammo, percussion caps, or anything. But I did learn some new skills as a means of conserving what I had, and I largely fell back on single action revolvers including cap and ball. I had been into those types of guns since the '70s, and I returned to them for a lot of my shooting to conserve my other stuff.
All my life I've seen the ratchet effect irt guns, ammo and loading components. Things have eased up a bit now, but the ratchet never backs up far.
I'm happy about the things I learned during those years (making black powder and primers, for example), and I don't intend to forget them; nor assume the same thing won't happen again. Maybe worse next time.

[MT Chambers]

My pick is my Freedom Arms 83 in .454 Casull with it's extra .45 Colt's cylinder and most factory options.

[6bg6ga]

I also have two Glocks. A G22 (full size .40) and a G21 (full size .45). I have Lone wolf barrels for both; the one for the G22 is 9mm conversion. I like the fact that police turn in Glocks are cheap and there's a lot of aftermarket support. I've bought Korean mags for way under $10 each.
But if I wanted a double stack "wunder-nine" type pistol that I expect to outlast me even if I shoot it extensively, I would get a steel-frame CZ-75 or clone. I know this because I do want one of those, and I did buy a steel-frame Canik CZ-75 clone.
If I wanted an autoloading pistol I could shoot extensively and expect to outlast me, along with the expectation that I can always get parts for it, cheaply and just about anywhere in the world, I would get a 1911. Do and did.
But I don't think any autoloader nor double action revolver is as durable and reliable as a Ruger Blackhawk, just as I don't think and autoloading rifle is as durable and reliable as a Mauser '98.

As for some zombie apocalypse, I don't recall seeing anyone mention anything of the kind until P&P blew a gasket over it. I do however remember the second half of Obama's term when it became nearly impossible to find primers and most (especially pistol) powders, not to mention percussion caps... and then pretty much stayed that way for a few years. I didn't run out of primers, powder, lead, ammo, percussion caps, or anything. But I did learn some new skills as a means of conserving what I had, and I largely fell back on single action revolvers including cap and ball. I had been into those types of guns since the '70s, and I returned to them for a lot of my shooting to conserve my other stuff.
All my life I've seen the ratchet effect irt guns, ammo and loading components. Things have eased up a bit now, but the ratchet never backs up far.
I'm happy about the things I learned during those years (making black powder and primers, for example), and I don't intend to forget them; nor assume the same thing won't happen again. Maybe worse next time.

1911's? I have seven of them. I prefer them to any Glock alive any day. Ruger? I had a super blackhawk and never shot it. Not nearly as nice in my opinion as a Smith model 29 or 629. Ruger red hawk? Still couldn't give me a Ruger but then again just my opinion.

Tazman.... all your going to get with this thread are going to be opinions hundreds of them. Reliability? Give me the 1911 anyday. Available rounds in the magazine? Definately something else with a higher count. Solution? 1911 with a dozen or two magazined loaded on your person ready to go.

What this thread needs to do is compromise and select something that will provide a lot of bang for the buck and then have additional parts stored just in case something breaks and then have a second identical model as a back up and that with additional parts.

[murf205]

[QUOTE=The Governor;4124602]Yes it does. Wonder what broke on that 28.[/


I don't know what broke on his 28 but mine slid out of the zippered case(unzipped) and landed on the concrete floor. It didn't put a mark on it but it locked up tight. I couldn't get the cylinder to open or the hammer back or the trigger to pull double action! Sent it to the factory and $190 later it was back in action. As much as I love those S&W wheel guns, it makes you wonder just how much torture they will stand.

[Lloyd Smale]

there you go. The super blackhawks and redhawks are built like a school bus.
Ruger Super Blackhawk .44mag:Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire:

Ol Deuce

[6bg6ga]

[QUOTE=murf205;4138415]

WW1 british decided that they loved revolvers, but that in the trenches they envied americans with 1911s. looser tolerances kept them running longer. But tighter tolerances on a smith and Wesson or any revolver will keep things running nice when taken care of.

Its somewhat the argument of "can a 500$ AR be called mil spec quality or just be called a quality product, when the entire upper shreds itself after a 1000 round mag dump when put on a full auto lower?"

I don't know what kind of upper you used that shreded itself when put on a full auto lower. My experience being around full auto stuff says just the opposite.

[6bg6ga]

there you go. The super blackhawks and redhawks are built like a school bus.

As good as they may be they still break as do all guns. There is no absolute best when it comes to trying to select something for when it hits the fan. This is why this thread in my opinion is pointless. There will be countless pages of answers and 1000 guns with each one getting points for being the best.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. A lot too depends on what you expect when shtf. Do you think your going to be foraging for food and maybe have to turn away a bumb trying to get a meal or do you think you might have neighborhood free for alls or do you think there will be an all out invasion end of the world senerio. For the last I don't want any handgun I want a good semi auto rifle like an AR or AK. For the middle something like a glock but even then an AR would be preferable. For the first and if I knew FOR SURE that's the way it would be a super Blackhawk would be hard to beat. Yes they all can break but id take a ruger super over a Taurus or Rossi anything. Probably before any smith and Wesson revolver too. A FA is tank strong too but if it ever did break your going to have to travel many many miles to find another to scarf parts from. So in fact there are choices that are better then others. Just like in a semi auto gun. Sigs, M&Ps ruger pc's and H&Ks are great guns but if I had to choose it would be either a glock (again because parts will be everywhere because they sell more glocks then all others combined) The other would be a beretta because there are just thousands of them in service in the military so finding parts would be easier and both glocks and 92s have proven to be good reliable guns.

[Lloyd Smale]

[QUOTE=Minuteshaver;4139382]

I don't know what kind of upper you used that shreded itself when put on a full auto lower. My experience being around full auto stuff says just the opposite.

Ive got 5-600 dollar ars that have fired more rounds then probably ANY AR in service today with the possible exception of a boot camp gun that's shot every day. I know many times ive put 500 rounds in a day through them without cleaning and they never missed a beat. The difference between a 2ooo dollar AR, a milspec AR and a 500 dollar AR aren't even close to justifying the extra money. If your real conserned buy a good bolt group for 200 bucks keep your old for a spare and an extra lower parts kit and a couple recoil springs and your probably set for life in ANY SHTF senerio. About 10 years ago I bought 4 extra lower parts kits, 2 complete bolt assemblys and some recoil springs and there ALL still in the wrappers. Never had a thing break on an ar. By the way my most expensive one is a stag that cost me a grand new. Mostly because of the fancy 4 rail that I never use.

[scattershot]

I'm not a big fan of Glocks, either, but in your case I would seriously look at them. They seem to be as reliable as the sunrise, and if YouTube torture tests are any indication, darn near indestructable. Parts and aftermarket accessories are everywhere, and if you buy a .40 (22,23,etc.) you can get conversion barrels to let you shoot 9mm, too.

Good luck!

[tazman]

Not certain I want to buy a pistol that needs to be re-barrelled in order to shoot my cast reloads. I understand that many people have no issues with cast in their Glock handgun original barrels.
If anyone were to have a problem with that, it would be me.
Just for the record, I don't powdercoat or use Hitek coating. I tried them and it just didn't work out for me.
I also find it interesting that, even though I said I couldn't shoot single action handguns well, people keep recommending them. I know they are overbuilt an in other people's hands are quite accurate. I just can't shoot them well.
Due to arthritis, I am limited on the recoil I can handle. 357mag and 45ACP are currently my upper limits. To use either of these cartridges, I need a relatively heavy and full size firearm. This limits me to lower power cartridges and handguns with lower recoil. Even light weight pistols in these two cartridges are painful and difficult for me to shoot.
I think it is boiling down to Smith & Wesson revolvers and/or 1911 pistols.
I am not badmouthing other makes or styles of handguns. These appear to be the ones that will work for me.
Thank you all for your input.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Still using the Glock 40 S&W barrel in our model 22 that came with it when the police sold it off 15 years ago. Have shot maybe only 7000 of our cast 200 grain cast through it. No lead in those poly grooves as we learned a long time ago about cast fit in a barrel.
Shoot the same load in our 2 Kel-Tec model 2000 (Glock mag) 40 S&W carbines. All use the same Glock mags and go chunk, chunk, chunk.... so regular we do not think about reliability any longer. They go where we go when in a car when up north.

1911... Have a Remington Rand (1943) that has digested every cast I have tried 185's to 255's. As long as the case has enough powder to cycle it, it will feed. Have not tried a "trash can" shape. It has slide rattle, barrel is not fitted. Just as it was issued and shot until a troop liberated it. I would be perfectly content to risk my future with just that one 1911. It rides the 2 wheeler a lot with me when up north there.
Mike in Peru

[6bg6ga]

About those AR's...

I buy mil spec parts only as MOST parts are. Mil spec means these parts are within the same tolerances and generally the same material with respect to steel grade, hardness, and so forth. The idea that a $2k gun is better than a gun you can put together for $500 is plain stupid. You pay the money for something that says "Rock River" on it or whatever your favorite expensive brand is. I 've shot next to the same bench as a "Rock River Guy" and simply out shot him with my $500 gun.

I can buy a 2K watch but that doesn't mean it will keep any better time or outlast my Seiko. The money I have saved on building my own AR simply means I have more money to spend on either other guns or other equipment.

For the shif my vote is for a AR in 5.56 for clearing crowds of those wishing to enter your property without being asked in so to speak. Having said this....have on hand additional parts to re-furb the lower, additional parts for the bolt or an extra bolt and an extra barrel and don't forget the tools.

[6bg6ga]

Not certain I want to buy a pistol that needs to be re-barrelled in order to shoot my cast reloads. I understand that many people have no issues with cast in their Glock handgun original barrels.
If anyone were to have a problem with that, it would be me.
Just for the record, I don't powdercoat or use Hitek coating. I tried them and it just didn't work out for me.
I also find it interesting that, even though I said I couldn't shoot single action handguns well, people keep recommending them. I know they are overbuilt an in other people's hands are quite accurate. I just can't shoot them well.
Due to arthritis, I am limited on the recoil I can handle. 357mag and 45ACP are currently my upper limits. To use either of these cartridges, I need a relatively heavy and full size firearm. This limits me to lower power cartridges and handguns with lower recoil. Even light weight pistols in these two cartridges are painful and difficult for me to shoot.
I think it is boiling down to Smith & Wesson revolvers and/or 1911 pistols.
I am not badmouthing other makes or styles of handguns. These appear to be the ones that will work for me.
Thank you all for your input.

First of all the process of changing a barrel on a Glock takes less than 2 minutes and I have arthritis in my hands too and I'm still working and will be for the next 6+ months. Back to the barrel... its a simple process of removing the slide, taking out the recoil spring, installing the new barrel and replacing the spring. Once that is done you simply put the slide assembly back on the lower and its ready to rock and roll.

As much as I love my Smith&Wessons I would have to leave them in favor of a Glock, or 1911. As I mentioned before I would have additional parts on hand for either.

Having mentioned the word Glock again I would opt for the full sized model. I like my model 35 Glock which is 40 cal. I believe the same sized gun is also available in 9mm if one wants it. Again I would opt for a caliber I could find that is NATO if possible. The 1911 with what I have either loaded up already or could have loaded within a few hours has me putting it also on my list.

[tazman]

I had an interesting conversation with a dealer in Moline a couple of days ago concerning AR15 style rifles.
His claim was that 80-90% of all the lower receivers used by most AR "manufacturers" are made by just 3-4 companies. Pretty much the same for the uppers. Also most of the internal parts are made by 1-2 companies. Pretty much the same for the barrels.
His point was that you pay the extra money for the extras on the weapon. Stocks, grips, rails, and other accessories are where the extra money comes in for the most part unless you are doing a custom rifle. His idea is that there is no real functional difference between a $500 AR and a more expensive one since all the working parts are from the same manufacturers.
I have no 1st hand knowledge of this so I can't dispute his claims.
Is he right or mistaken?

[dragon813gt]

He's pretty much correct. The number of manufacturers may be wrong. Specifically w/ the barrels because there are more than two. But there are a limited number of manufacturers for the parts. Same lower receiver just different roll marks.

[6bg6ga]

I had an interesting conversation with a dealer in Moline a couple of days ago concerning AR15 style rifles.
His claim was that 80-90% of all the lower receivers used by most AR "manufacturers" are made by just 3-4 companies. Pretty much the same for the uppers. Also most of the internal parts are made by 1-2 companies. Pretty much the same for the barrels.
His point was that you pay the extra money for the extras on the weapon. Stocks, grips, rails, and other accessories are where the extra money comes in for the most part unless you are doing a custom rifle. His idea is that there is no real functional difference between a $500 AR and a more expensive one since all the working parts are from the same manufacturers.
I have no 1st hand knowledge of this so I can't dispute his claims.
Is he right or mistaken?

There are a number of barrel manufacturers and this has grown the past few years. The important parts the upper and lower stripped parts if mil spec there isn't ANY difference other than the logo on the side of them that you pay extra for. The trigger group... who cares anyway. I always replace the trigger assembly because I consider them to be junk.

The bolts are a joke because the general uninformed person purchasing part tends to think that money is equal to quality. I'll put my $70 bolt up to anyones $300 one.

Barrels are cheap and if my $70-90 barrel wears out because it wasn't heat treated to the supposed mil spec then so be it. I can replace one in 15 minutes or less and includes the time to find my tools.

Tazman is your thinking AR then go for it. Just remember to get a non-plastic lower receiver if your going to buy one.

[M-Tecs]

This is just a partial list and far from complete

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=216.0

Here is a list of the AR-15 lowers manufacturers with the names they manufacture lowers under. The list was compiled by Falcon from the ar15armory.com forums with some updates by myself.
Quote from: http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/AR15-Receiver-t15231.html
Lewis Machine & Tool
LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett

Continental Machine Tool
Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt

LAR Manufacturing
LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical

JVP
Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly

Mega Machine Shop
Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms

Olympic
Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)

Sun Devil
Sun Devil forged billet receivers
Lone Star Armory forged billet receivers

Superior
Superior Arms
Lauer (New)

Aero Precision
Aero Precision
Surplus Ammo and Arms
Palmetto State Armory

-------------------------------------
The above list contains the machine companies that machine the raw forgings into usable receivers. Each individual company applies their own finishing standards.

[M-Tecs]

Most of these don't machine their parts but a list of most of the different AR15 companies

http://www.deploymentessentials.com/ar-15-manufacturers-list/

[Harter66]

If you decide on a revolver I would buy 2 .
For example a 357 BH is a fine example of a tank . I'd buy 2 of the same 1 a convertible and 1 a straight 357 . Then shoot them both alternately until you have them wear slick and have the ideal grips etc . Then put the straight 357 on the nightstand and wear out the 9mm cylinder .

There are several "ACP" sister pistols to the magnum platforms in the same caliber .
There is little to match the speed of a moon clip in speed loaders .
Ive wanted a 45 Colts double action since not long after I bought the BlackHawk . Now there is a 45 Colts RedHawk that takes ACP in moon clips . That means that what you really have is a 45 Mag RedHawk with a 45 Colts/Schofield headspace lip . The down side is that they're $1100 ea and use a Ruger only ,only available from Ruger moon clip . The upside is that you could shoot 1000s of APC and GAP and place more wear on it with cleaning than shooting . It also takes the 38/357 combo to the next step of shooting 38 shorts for weekly proficiency in a manor of speaking .

[tazman]

I said before that I probably already have the handguns I will end up with.
I have 3 22lr semi autos, 2 357 mag revolvers, 3 38 special revolvers, 4 9mm semi autos, 1 9mm revolver, and 2 45acp 1911. All of these function very well and are accurate. All are quality handguns(by my standards).
I won't even start on the rifles and shotguns.

[6bg6ga]

With your array of handguns why the thread? Other than getting the post count up it really has served no purpose in my opinion other than to list everyones favorite gun. As you stated you probably have the handgun you will end up with.

[bisleyfan41]

With your array of handguns why the thread? Other than getting the post count up it really has served no purpose in my opinion other than to list everyones favorite gun. As you stated you probably have the handgun you will end up with.

And yet you keep coming back to it. If you don't like it, quit reading and posting on it. Go start your own "worthy" thread. I found it to be entertaining reading everyone's choices and more importantly, why they chose them. Gets me thinking in different directions I normally wouldn't. Lighten up and move on. Damn.

[Tracy]

Not certain I want to buy a pistol that needs to be re-barrelled in order to shoot my cast reloads. I understand that many people have no issues with cast in their Glock handgun original barrels.
If anyone were to have a problem with that, it would be me.
Just for the record, I don't powdercoat or use Hitek coating. I tried them and it just didn't work out for me.
I also find it interesting that, even though I said I couldn't shoot single action handguns well, people keep recommending them. I know they are overbuilt an in other people's hands are quite accurate. I just can't shoot them well.
Due to arthritis, I am limited on the recoil I can handle. 357mag and 45ACP are currently my upper limits. To use either of these cartridges, I need a relatively heavy and full size firearm. This limits me to lower power cartridges and handguns with lower recoil. Even light weight pistols in these two cartridges are painful and difficult for me to shoot.
I think it is boiling down to Smith & Wesson revolvers and/or 1911 pistols.
I am not badmouthing other makes or styles of handguns. These appear to be the ones that will work for me.
Thank you all for your input.
Good choices, and kudos on an interesting and thought-provoking thread.
I think a double action Ruger Six series or GP-100 is a more durable revolver than a S&W (and the Air Force agrees, btw) but an older S&W K-frame .38 is known to go 100,000 rounds of standard pressure loads before needing parts replacement. I certainly couldn't fault anyone for choosing a pinned Model 10 or 15 for your stated purpose. K frame .38s are some of my absolute favorites of all guns.

[tazman]

As I read through this thread, I got to see what people thought of many different guns that I have no experience with. I can't own them all or even try them all out thoroughly. This thread lets me get an idea of what I might want to try in the future.
There has been a great deal of good information and solid opinions posted here. I love all that. Good data is always a good place to start an education on something new.
I am not an expert on anything related to guns. I am an amateur who shoots a lot and has a good time doing so. I give advice sometimes on things I have experience with and know something about.
Is my opinion any more valuable than anyone else's? Only to me more than likely.
I expect I will be trying out a Glock in the near future. There are a couple of gun shops nearby with shooting ranges that rent Glock pistols. I'll have to see if they have something that may fit my hands.
Listing everyone's favorite gun was as much a part of the reason for this thread as any other. There is usually a reason or several for a lot of people liking a particular model or brand of firearm.
By including my general specifications as to what I would be looking for, I was able to point the discussion in a direction that suited my purpose. I consider it to be a success.
Again, thank you all for posting your ideas. I now have several new ideas to follow and see how they turn out.
If you have more ideas, please post them here. This has been a lot of fun for me and hopefully for others as well.

[6bg6ga]

And yet you keep coming back to it. If you don't like it, quit reading and posting on it. Go start your own "worthy" thread. I found it to be entertaining reading everyone's choices and more importantly, why they chose them. Gets me thinking in different directions I normally wouldn't. Lighten up and move on. Damn.
Everyone here is entitled to their opinion. I expressed mine based on the 160+ posts on this thread most of which expressed everyones favorite handgun and in reality this thread really didn't solve any problems or serve as a basis for anyone trying to select a " best handgun or best rifle" in my opinion. I expressed an opinion which I assume I am allowed to. You have the right to read it, agree with it, disagree with it or what ever the heck you want just like me.

[jmort]

" I was able to point the discussion in a direction that suited my purpose. I consider it to be a success.
Again, thank you all for posting your ideas. I now have several new ideas to follow and see how they turn out.
If you have more ideas, please post them here. This has been a lot of fun for me and hopefully for others as well."

This is why the thread was successful. Complaining about the thread is pointless. I find this thread to be interesting. It ain't dead yet.

[Lloyd Smale]

best gun posts are on here every month. Yes they get a little old for some but without this kind of "waste of bandwidth" posts most of these fourms would probably die.:Fire: Without high post counts advertisers would go elsewhere and this fourm (which by the way is free for us because the owner makes money off of the advertisers) would dry up in two months and go away. I guess in the big picture id much rather see a new "what gun is best" post everyday then even one of those posts on the political forum where a few rednecks make all of us gun onwers look like Neanderthals
Everyone here is entitled to their opinion. I expressed mine based on the 160+ posts on this thread most of which expressed everyones favorite handgun and in reality this thread really didn't solve any problems or serve as a basis for anyone trying to select a " best handgun or best rifle" in my opinion. I expressed an opinion which I assume I am allowed to. You have the right to read it, agree with it, disagree with it or what ever the heck you want just like me.

[jmort]

There may be some 'necks, but we hillbillies contribute to The Pit in our own special way as well.

[6bg6ga]

The point I'm trying to make that most cannot see is there is no winner. There is no comprehensive study to back up weather the 1911 is best or the Ruger Red Hawk is best or if Goofies cap gun outranks everything. Someone please come up with some studies, graphs, or other material to support at least one gun mentioned. Otherwise like I said there are just a bunch of pointless posts backed up with no proof what so ever. What this thread has come up with so far are a bunch of personal opinions with no facts no proof what so ever. Put a damn graph in it or something else to at least establish so type of percentage. Once that is done at least there will be something to point to what the favorite is and at least that would be a step forward in this thread.

[tazman]

There doesn't need to be a "winner". Each person who has posted has made a suggestion based on how they feel about it and their own experience. This is all valid data.
If it would please you, I could go through the thread and make a graph of all the posted responses, but I personally see no real need to do so.
I am not going to make a decision until after I evaluate the new ideas and options that have been presented in this thread. Even then, it probably won't be set in stone. People change and so do circumstances. New options become available on a regular basis.
This whole thing is going to be a work in progress, quite possibly for years.
As you said, no comprehensive study has been done on this outside of some military trials which had different prerequisites than I do. Even in the military trials, thing get chosen based on opinions and monetary/political reasons and not on which handgun may actually be best. Otherwise all police and military would be using the same weapons.
To those of you reading this, please continue your posts and comments. I appreciate you all taking the time to help expand my knowledge of handguns. Many things have been presented that have given me food for thought. I may need to revise my own opinions on certain things due to the posts in this thread.
Please keep the information coming.

[tazman]

As requested, I went through all the posts and listed the recommendations. I am lumping certain of the recommended guns together since they are the same style, just different calibers. The Glocks I put all together since so many different models were listed. Same with the S&W revolvers, 1911 pistols, and Ruger double action revolvers.
As of post number 176 here are the recommendations.

Ruger Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk all calibers 17
Glock all models 21
S&W revolvers all frame sizes 26
Colt SAA and clones 3 I possibly should have put these with the Ruger SA guns
Ruger DA revolvers 18
Sig 3
Hi Point 1
Ruger P95 1
Bereta 92 3
CZ 2
1911 all calibers, all manufacturers 21

Interestingly, no S&W semi auto pistols were recommended.
So far S&W revolvers lead with Glock, 1911 pistols, and Ruger single action revolvers following closely.
Obviously, I already own some of these. I am going to be trying out some of the others to see if I might like them(Glock and certain of the Ruger SA guns). I question whether I gave the Ruger Blackhawk I owned a fair trial.

[DerekP Houston]

:drinks: S&W revolvers for the win! I enjoyed the thread I don't ever really care about drift, it keeps things interesting.

[tazman]

:drinks: S&W revolvers for the win! I enjoyed the thread I don't ever really care about drift, it keeps things interesting.

I agree. There is often a great deal of insight and information in a drift.

[6bg6ga]

Anything from manufacturers stating how many rounds they have shot thru their product? Example.. Does Glock have any info say ....they shot 100K rounds thru without any parts breakage? barrel replacement? small parts?

My point it its very easy to obtain a graph with owners voting for their favorite piece. Its harder to obtain hard data stating one can say expect to run 10K rounds thru their S&W 629 before for example the barrel needs replaced or its out of time or for example they got 25K thru the Red Hawk?

As informative as some may find this thread there is still no hard data to back anything up just a favorites list as contributed to by people contributing to this thread. The factory has to have data available on their products. This data should be able to be accessed in my opinion.

[tazman]

Forrest r posted this link back on page 3. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/High-round-count-pistols--100-000---observations/4-160140/?
It contains data reports from a shooting range that rents pistols to people shooting on the range and tracks repairs and breakage.
There are several pages to dig through to get the data but it is worth the read. It contains the data that you are wanting on various pistols that the range rents. This is from actual usage. Not from a manufacturers possibly optimistic results. Very informative.

[Harter66]

Anything from manufacturers stating how many rounds they have shot thru their product? Example.. Does Glock have any info say ....they shot 100K rounds thru without any parts breakage? barrel replacement? small parts?

My point it its very easy to obtain a graph with owners voting for their favorite piece. Its harder to obtain hard data stating one can say expect to run 10K rounds thru their S&W 629 before for example the barrel needs replaced or its out of time or for example they got 25K thru the Red Hawk?

As informative as some may find this thread there is still no hard data to back anything up just a favorites list as contributed to by people contributing to this thread. The factory has to have data available on their products. This data should be able to be accessed in my opinion.

Hard data ?
How exactly does the insane GI gun breaking slaughter house testing of the 1911 and 45 ACP of a 1910 prototype compare to a similar 2010 Les Behr or Kimber ? How would one even go about a comparison ?

The 1911 in all of it's cartridges and calibers has been a production staple for 106 yr .
The K Frame Smith in the current model 25 or 625 or whatever other labels it's wearing shore as shooting ain't a triple lock or a 1950 target . I scarcely doubt that an off the rack 44 mag would make a blemish on the grip of a NIB model 29 .

I don't know the origin story of the M10 Smith but the 47' just barely not a Victory model isn't an M&P of 70s vintage .

Outside of the hammer block the BlackHawk is basically mechanically unchanged in 60yr of production .

We've seen the run em' till they blow Glock videos , but who can afford to run an HP until it melts ? The USMC kept the 1911 until just a couple of yr ago so it had over 100 yr in service .

Short of the Mil-Spec trials standard as a base line which I'm sure is catalogued some where how would you make a straight line comparison ? Ruger probably hasn't submitted a gun and certainly not an SA .

Sure we all have our favs . Some we choose for cartridge , some for weight , some for capacity , and some for cartridge interchangeablity some might even pick a pistol based on liking a cartridge in a carbine and magazine compatibility . There's almost certainly no way to measure that .

[6bg6ga]

I don't think it would be too hard to contact say S&W and ask for some data. Example .... number of rounds fired and so forth. If I wasn't still working full time I would gladly call them and obtain some data. Yes, I for one would trust S&W for their figures before I would trust some run of the mill repair shop located in someones garage or their data on their repairs. One should easily be able to obtain some hard figures/percentages of repair for specific defects.

[tazman]

It seems the link I posted has been taken down. I wish it were still available as this was far more than a "run of the mill repair shop in someones garage".
I don't know if the various gun manufacturers would release testing data such as you seem to require. I think they would consider that type of thing proprietary and not for general release.
At this point I don't believe you will accept any data that I might provide. You will always ask for more and claim that without it, nothing matters.
I still feel that if so many people find these particular guns to be among the best, there has to be something to it.
Those opinions are why I started this thread and why I hope it keeps going.

[Bigslug]

The OP stated a SHTF scenario. In that case you may not have a room full of tools to fix broken parts in your gun. This is one of the reasons I "laughed" at the recommendation of a 1911. To work on a Glock you need one of these.
https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/181/181144.jpg

Beyond that you'll need a rear sight pusher and a front sight socket. And that's it. You don't need a lot to work on them. I'm not a Glock fan by any means. I'm a fan of their simplicity. Which in a SHTF scenario will pay off in spades.

No gun is going to run forever w/out breaking parts. I've seen more issues w/ 1911s in my short life than any other pistol. They can be picky when it comes to ammo selection. This is another plus for a Glock that will fire anything you put in it. They aren't the nicest looking or shooting guns but they are work horses. Same can be said for the Beretta 92s. But they require more tools to work on.

I had thought I responded to this, but it seems not. . .maybe only in my head.

I don't get too worked up in the 1911 / Glock debate, because they are my #1 and #2 favorite autoloading handguns, respectively, with everything else being a pile of lawyer and/or accountant-mandated complications like DA triggers, decockers, mag disconnects, LCIs, and other frivel. As to which is "better" of the two, I regard them of products of different ages which had somewhat differing mindsets.

The 1911's reputation has suffered at the hands of people who either don't properly understand how it works, or want to tweak it to be all things to all people (i.e. super-tight, match-tolerance, hair-trigger target guns. . .with fixed night sights and light rails. . .). When you build it as it was intended to be built, and lock everything down like you're building it for war, about all you really need to understand about how auto pistols operate is how to check for and establish proper extractor tension. Get that down, run it on semi-decent 7-round, and don't run ridiculous meplats in it, it's an unstoppable tank that I would Pepsi Challenge against all comers. In the age of it's origin, there was no e-mailing via satellite to have the C17 bring you parts in 3 days; you had to roll with what you had, so what you had needed to be stout. And has already been said, you don't even need a punch to detail strip a straight GI one.

The Glock is a little more the product of the e-mail and C17 era, and it requires less of an understanding of how guns work - just an understanding of how to change out what's wrong. This is great if you (A.) have that understanding, and (B.) have the replacement for what's wrong. It does have a HELLA durable finish that I wish someone would get around to putting on a 1911.

The caveat to long term Glock durability/reliability is one needs to clarify WHICH Glocks are we talking about. 9mm with standard pressure ammo was what they were originally designed and seriously tested for, and those guns are pretty stout. The early .40's and .357's from many makers (Gen 2/3 in Glock's case) were rushed to capitalize on the sales potential of the .40 Swindle & Whitewash that the agencies were marching like zombies to buy before they realized the only thing wrong with the 9mm was the bullets. Consequently, they suffered from being big-caliber guns with small caliber construction and tended to break a lot of stuff if you didn't watch the round count and spring changes like a hawk. I think Glock had about 5 follower and at least three locking block revisions for the .40 on the Gen 3 alone. Meanwhile, the 9mm's just kept chugging. . .until guys tried to run them on +P+. . .at which point they began acting a lot like the .40's. Remember the beefed-up slide on the Beretta Brigadier? Or how HK came to the .40 party about two years late with the USP that was designed for that round FIRST? Same principle.

The industry-wide .40 debacle highlights another point that seems to plague a lot of modern pistols: the 1911 didn't suffer from anyone trying to make it "NEW!", "The First!", "The Next Big Thing!" , or "We Have To Get This Idea To Market Before ______ Does!", that seems to result in the product recall of the month. The 1911 was the product of almost a decade's tweaking before "mil-spec" locked in the blueprints, which are still being used to this day, as opposed to "We reserve the right to screw this up as we see fit, when we see fit"

Your new i-Phone will probably be obsolescent in three years, but the 1911 remains remarkably current. This is because the problems it was made to solve have not changed, and were more clearly understood then than they seem to be now.

[M-Tecs]

The 1911's reputation also suffered with the Militaries lack of maintenance during the 70's thru the mid 90's. The round count on some of the 1911's in training use was truly amazing as was the lack of maintenance on them.

[tazman]

The 1911 has been around for over 100 years and has a deserved reputation. I wish I could be around in about 30-50 years and see how the reputation of the Glock holds up.

Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.

[6bg6ga]

On a shear level of reliability, OR durability, NOTHING beats a 32 ounce framing hammer. Absolutely nothing but ill admit right off that a regulation tee ball bat, with 4 inches of lead pipe snuggled down over the business end comes a mighty comfy tie for 1st place.

for revolvers it depends on the gun and the ammunition used. Get yourself an N frame in .357 magnum and load it with .38 special lwsc, it should last till the second coming. But grab an armscor and well be looking for a replacement inside 5,000 rounds.

SW gives a 50,000 round repair policy at 1,000 rounds per year. That may be useful or not. Miculek needs his custom shop built smiths completely rebuilt every few years, and he shoots what 30,000 rounds a year in a single gun?

The first really useful post in my humble opinion. It gives a ball part idea of how many rounds a year. Looks like somewhere in the 50K-60K for S&W. Important info on loading....Armscor in my opinion is loaded probably at the top of the chart. So, expect to be able to run less rounds thru it if they are loaded heavy. More rounds if they are loaded lite.

[6bg6ga]

The 1911 has been around for over 100 years and has a deserved reputation. I wish I could be around in about 30-50 years and see how the reputation of the Glock holds up.

Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.

I'll have to disagree partially with what has been said. I have a S&W from the custom shop that will eat anything without any feed failures. The have a Colt officers with some polishing of the feed ramp and feed ramp machined to the correct angle...feeds anything. I have a Colt National Match ...feeds anything. I have a military 1911 only feeds hard ball and chokes on anything else.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "Target Pistol" when they are setup properly they will be accurate and feed anything anytime. I guess it depends on who works on your 1911 setting it up and getting the bugs out. Another important thing with any 1911 is the proper magazine. Some mags are meant to feed hard ball and others will feed anything.

I've shot a number of the " Target Pistols from Custom Shops" guns from Les Baer, Wilson, and Ed Brown just to name several. They have fed everything I ran thru them.

Some of the so called feed failures are nothing more than operator error. I watched in horror as a guy shooting next to me with his new 1911 couldn't seem to get a round thru it without stove piping it. Grip has a lot to do with the ability of any 1911 to function properly. So many times the 1911 is blamed for being a malfunctioning *** and the problem is the idiotic person trying to shoot it.

[6bg6ga]

203251

Picture of my run of the mill "Target Gun"

203252

Proper magazine

203253 203254

Colt Gold Cup National Match Series 70 Magazine

203255

Average performance 25 yards 7 rounds

Granted I can pull out targets from my other 1911's most will rival the best by Baer, Brown, and Wilson. Any decent setup 1911 will generally perform better than the person shooting the gun.

[6bg6ga]

The Glock 35 which I would have no problem selecting for SHIF senereo.

203257

First attempt at trying to make a decent performing load. 180 gr SWC lead bullet in front of 4.5 gr of WW231 powder. The first shot a tad low told me to raise the sight a bit. Adjustment and another shot a bit higher. Another adjustment followed by three rounds in the center. All at 25 yards.
Goes to show the Glock 35 with a Lone Wolf barrel is a decent performer in the right hands. No more targets to show simply because I only loaded the 5 to try.

So, two possibles for the SHIF senereo. I would take either and there is data on both sides to prove either will run thousands of rounds before a tune up is needed. Both if selected will need additional parts, springs and such to last a long long time.

[6bg6ga]

Unfortunately my desire to obtain some info on rounds fired has for the most part fell upon dead ears. Important info like the S&W rounds fired would be an important factor in your when it hits the fan selection.

As mentioned... it would be important to have a selection of back up parts. To be blunt the Glocks will need them, the 1911's will need them and ANY wheel gun will need them. Yes, they can be packed away in you grab and go bag that you should have ready to go.

[tazman]

6bg6ga---There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "Target Pistol" when they are setup properly they will be accurate and feed anything anytime. I guess it depends on who works on your 1911 setting it up and getting the bugs out. Another important thing with any 1911 is the proper magazine. Some mags are meant to feed hard ball and others will feed anything.

This is absolutely correct. My target style 1911 is setup specifically for hardball and simply won't feed anything else reliably. The other 1911 was set up for general purpose shooting and feeds anything with a reasonably decent magazine.

6bg6ga----As mentioned... it would be important to have a selection of back up parts. To be blunt the Glocks will need them, the 1911's will need them and ANY wheel gun will need them. Yes, they can be packed away in you grab and go bag that you should have ready to go.

Also true. My only caveat is I am not planning on bugging out. If it gets that bad, I will live or die in place. I am too old to run through the boonies any more.

I just wish I could shoot as well as your target proves you can. I am working on it.
For some reason the pictures you attempted to post in #190 aren't visible. I am hoping you can repost or otherwise correct that problem as I would very much like to see them.

[6bg6ga]

I found it necessary sign into the site and then the attachments once you click on them they will open. Not signed in I got an invalid message. Will repost them just in case.

203267

203265

203268

203269

203270

[6bg6ga]

First picture my National match.

Second picture a Brownells magazine that will feed absolutely anything perfectly provided the ramp is polished.

Third picture a Stock Colt Gold Cup magazine.

Target is 7 rounds @ 25 yards with the gun in picture #1.

[tazman]

I logged in first thing this morning. I still can't see the pictures from #190 but the second posting is no problem. Thanks for re-posting.
My hardball magazines look like the Colt Gold Cup magazine. The ones I use for semi-wadcutters look like the Brownell's magazine. I have used the SWC magazines in the hardball gun I have and they work fine for hardball but still won't feed SWC in that pistol. It has to be a polish/feed ramp/throating issue but I am not certain I want to mess with it yet. It is shooting hardball and Lyman 452374 boolits really well.
That target is impressive. That is about what I do at 10 yards. At 25 my groups are much larger than that. Not to say my pistol isn't capable. It almost certainly is. I on the other hand, am not.

[6bg6ga]

I cheat I have very nice triggers that function with very little pull required. Most of my triggers according to the scale are about 2.5 lb or less. Give me a 4 or 5 lb trigger and I simply cannot shoot that tight of a group. As with everything I need to improve and make them smaller yet. I used to be better before age and arthritus kicked in.

I used to use the Lyman 452374 mold and the H&G68 and then switched to a Magma molds which I like better.

[tazman]

My hardball gun was set up with a Kart barrel which has a fairly tight chamber and very little throat. As I said, it was set up specifically for hardball and it runs that well. I don't know enough to tell if having the barrel re-throated for SWC would mess up the barrel for hardball or not.
The best trigger I have on any of my 1911 pistols is a 3.5 lb trigger on my Springfield Range Officer in 9mm. I do shoot it a little better than the 45ACP but I didn't think the trigger would make that much difference.
I don't have that much experience with 1911 as a platform. Still learning.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I spent some time today and read a lot of the posts on this thread and they definitely are accurately defined as a "popularity contest."

However,,, I think the real answers to the OP's question are found in compiling the numbers of these posts IE: like a poll and taking those numbers as the correct answer.

If you look at a Broader Survey IE; The past sales of candidate firearms, and their usage in Combat over as long a period of time as is available,,, the winners will float to the top. There is no one absolute best, but there are definitely top performers. The best designs tend to last the longest and show their worth across virtually all forms of usage.

As far as Auto Pistols,,, two designs are above all others. They are the 1911 in all it's forms and manufacturers, and the Glock. The 1911 served the US Military for nearly 75 years and lots of other Military and Police Units around the world during that period. Its contribution to Firearms History can not be disputed.

The Glock platform has served 65% of all militaries and police units for the last 30 years.

No other Auto Pistols have this amount of service. There are plenty of very serviceable guns out there, but none rise to the level of acceptance of these two guns. They are Battle proven beyond anything else, and this is the one big reason why I think our military made a big mistake buying Sig P320s which have only been available for 3 years. They are not Battle proven anywhere but in acceptance trials.

As far as Revolvers go, there are single and double action variables to consider. They are different guns.

It is hard to argue with the service life of the S&W Model 10. It has been in service continuously since about 1910? Many other S&W Designs have evolved form that gun so obviously it is a good design. Ruger just hasn't been around long enough with their D/A guns to have a comparable track record.

Single Action Handguns are pretty much defined by the Colt SAA. But the Ruger BH and SBH versions of that gun are hard to argue with, as they incorporated improvements to the SAA Design that were needed and positive and made them better guns.

In the end,,, if you were able to compile Sales Records for all the top runners,,, the answers would float to the top,,, because,,,

The Capitalistic Model of Free Markets defining what products are truly best is no joke and it works on everything, and that's where your true answer lies.

Randy

[35remington]

6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.

[6bg6ga]

6bg, can't see clearly because your pictures are poor, but the magazines pictures you posted look just like the cheap hybrid knockoffs I have that are clearly fake Colt branded magazines and are jammomatics. Correct Colt sourced magazines have additional stampings on the floor plate. Currently they are made by Checkmate, and yours obviously are not.

Again, your pictures are poor and I cannot be sure just what you have. Would appreciate better pictures to help me out. I am way more 1911 magazine savvy than most. May post pictures of my fakes when I get home after Labor Day.

Those so called cheap knockoffs as you would call them are original Colt Gold Cup national match series 70 magazines that actually came out of the Colt boxes when I purchased the Gold Cups NEW. You'll have to take my word on that because I no longer have the original sales receipts. So much for that keen eye as you would call it.

The one magazine with the bumper is a Brownells magazine.

[Bigslug]

Bigslug--- Those were some thought provoking remarks. I have 1911 pistols set up both ways and you are right, the mil-spec pistol eats anything and just doesn't malfunction while the target setup is pickier(although it eats hardball like candy). This particular mil-spec even shoots well.

Seeing as we seem to be talking about magazines for the 1911 now, I did some pretty heavy experimentation a couple years back (as 35Remington and others can attest to), in which I explored the edge of the 1911's feeding envelope with a "fatal attraction" I had to making Elmer Keith's 452423 Auto-Rim revolver SWC work across about half a dozen versions of the gun (I've since moved on to better auto pistol bullet designs). The 452423 is NOT what a 1911 wants: it's nose is too short, the .34" meplat a couple hundredths bigger than what the gun seems to readily accept, and the full-diameter SWC shoulder often requires deeper seating into the case to prevent impact on tighter throats, which reduces C.O.A.L. well below the optimal hardball spec.

All that said, I made it work, and the magazines that fed that sledgehammer-faced wrecking ball the smoothest, most reliably, and with the least damage to the bullet nose, most notably IN A COMPLETELY STOCK , WWII-PRODUCTION COLT, were the GI-style ones with the constantly tapering feed lips, and the mags that gave the most grief were the stepped-lip ones that presumably entered the world for shooting five shot strings of lightweight SWC bullets in Bullseye matches.

You know how everyone waxes poetic about the "Controlled Round Feeding" and "Non-Rotating Claw Extractor" of the Mauser 98 spinoffs? That is exactly what a tapered lip mag in a 1911 gives you; a magazine that firmly controls the rear of the round at first, until it gradually hands off that control to the extractor, ultimately giving joint custody of the cartridge to the extractor, chamber walls, and breechface. The stepped magazines "surprise" the extractor by shooting the round up more suddenly. They usually seem to work just fine with any ammo that kinda-sorta resembles hardball, and it's an impressive testament to the pistol that it will put up with such monkeying. Checkmate's making those tapered lip mags again, and I never hesitate to Hoover up GI mags that are in decent condition.

All of that goes back to the leading point of my previous post: stuff most often goes wrong with the 1911 when people violate the First Commandment, which is Thou Shalt Not **** with John Browning's Blueprints

It's worth noting that's also usually when stuff goes wrong with the AR-15; when people leave Gene Stoner on the roadside and ride off with their glossy catalog of aftermarket Barbie accessories, while the full OEM Colts with just enough non-military contract parts to be legal are amazingly trouble-free.

The really cool thing about the 1911 is often also its greatest downfall - the design lends itself to both the combat extreme and the target extreme. You could say much the same thing about the basic automotive concept of four wheels and an engine lending itself equally well to crawling through rocks and mud and screaming around a paved oval track at 250 mph. The problem that arises with the 1911 is that many people get it into their heads that the same gun can be BOTH a Toyota Landcruiser and an Indy Car. We don't swallow this analogy with cars because optimized off-roaders and track cars look NOTHING alike, but the clueless chomp down on the notion with 1911's because a WWI Colt and a $3,000 Bullseye gun kinda DO. We get so wrapped up in shiny bells and whistles that we stop asking the most relevant question to the OP of this thread "What is this tool FOR?" A GI 1911 has a 6-8 pound trigger for a reason; maybe it's not the best thing for attempting 2" groups at 50 yards, but you'll never have to worry about your hammer following the slide forward after a shot, while the match shooters will get their panties in a wad if you drop their slide full speed on an empty chamber, battering their delicate sear engagement.

So I guess I should say - if you come into the party UNDERSTANDING all of that, know what to shop for, and kinda comprehend how you pistol operates, choose a 1911 according to your application (fortunately, some of the cheaper ones are closest to the reality we are discussing in this thread). It's kind of funny to put it this way, but for maximum durability this 1911 connoisseur would choose some of the least connoisseurish offerings.

If you're a non-gun person or a mild enthusiast for whom an extractor is something your dentist uses, an ejector is the bouncer at your bar, and a gun is a box full of magical Keebler Elves who kick a bullet out the barrel each time you ring the internal signal bell with a trigger pull, buy a Glock 17. Better still, buy two, and keep the second in the box for the day the first one gives trouble.

[35remington]

6bg, I said nothing about a "keen eye" because based on your picture quality nobody could claim any sort of keen vision to identify anything. I said I know more about 1911 magazines than most, and that I could not be sure what you had because your picture quality is poor. Identifying marks may also be in place on the top toe of the baseplate but you did not take a picture of that. My comments had to do with the Brownell's magazine as the follower is nonstandard. The Colt baseplate markings are not definitive absent better picture quality and additional photos to show other stamp locations.

Presumably pending better pictures and more identification the Gold Cup's magazine may be Colt's proprietary tapered lip hybrid design with a flared controlled release point intended to feed a wider variety of ammo than GI magazines do. A better picture of the feedlips and floorplate will distinguish it from the Brownells magazine. In the 70's Colt was supplying magazines with fewer markings that were leftovers from a large stash they had made earlier.

Other vendors made them to Colt's specs later and show different markings. I have a very large stash of 1911 magazines from various vendors dating from WW1 to present.

As a follow up to BS's post, the tapered flared lip design Colt supplies in seven shot format is more likely to feed smoothly than the semiwadcutter feed lip flared lip design which does not have tapered lips before the release point, but rather straight. GI magazines have no flare but rather a continuous taper. The seven shot Colt design is a combination of more abrupt and slightly earlier cartridge release and a preservation of the rear lip GI taper.

Ultimately if you wanna know what works you gotta try different configurations with different ammo and go with that. For ultimate 1911 reliability I prefer a shoulderless bullet with rounded ogive. The 1911 will work with a reasonable size meplat and my stock Colts with eat the RCBS 230 Cowboy bullet like candy with no kachunky feeding from proper magazines.

Tapered lips provide a less angular smoother feed, as BS just told you.

Sorry for the thread hijack to some degree.

[alamogunr]

6bg6ba???

[Mackay Sagebrush]

I have a background as both an end-user of a various weapons systems, as well as being cross trained as an armorer on a large assortment of weapons ranging from belt fed machine guns, to semi auto sniper systems (SR-25/M110) as well as the M24, to Glock, M203 grenade launchers, you name it. The .gov has sent me to various defense manufacturers to learn these systems inside and out, and I spent weeks at a time receiving a very in-depth education in the field.



https://i.imgur.com/bXpWbwL.jpg

I just noticed in the above pic that my hair did not have any grey in it. Amazing what a decade can do!

https://i.imgur.com/O0BKBG8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DWEQkbY.jpg


I only put that out there as a preface, so others will know my perspective and know it is not from what some member condescendingly called it a "Fanboy" thing.

The punchline is that, without question the handgun I would grab first would be a 9mm Glock. Either a G17, or G19 or even a G34. I have shot many tens of thousands of rounds through individual issued G19s and been extremely impressed with their reliability.

In fact at one location I was tasked with shutting down an embassy armory. We keep X amount of ammo on hand for issue, for training, for defense of the compound and for reserve. During the shutdown, to to the hostile nature of the location there was no way for us to get what was left of the ammo out, so I was tasked with getting rid of it. The problem is if I had it buried, the Hajis would just dig it up and use it against GIs and I was not going to let that happen. Long story short, I was having the teams shoot every single day that they were not out in Indian Country. I personally fired over 15,000 rounds through my issued G19 in a little over 3 months. I did not have a single malfunction in that entire time. That is a true testament to the design. Do Glocks break? Absolutely. I have repaired more than a few, but compared to other designed I have had to deal with, they are substantially easier to repair and to keep running. Plus anyone who can count to Potato and can read the directions in a Legos set can repair a Glock in the field, if the issue is a minor one, and they are properly trained.

On my own time I absolutely love fiddling with revolvers, especially N Frame .44s, but when it is time to quit playing and get to work, I grab a Glock and a Colt M4.

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ba???

[QUOTE=My comments had to do with the Brownell's magazine as the follower is nonstandard.]QUOTE

The follower in the Brownells magazine is as purchased by myself at the Brownells store in Grinnell,Iowa

[6bg6ga]

Mackay thank you for your service to this great nation and thank you for your factual and unbiased opinions and facts.

[tazman]

Mackay Sagebrush Those numbers are interesting. Makes me want to try out a Glock even more than before.
Currently thinking about trying the Glock 34. Anyone out there have any experience with this particular maodel?

[Mackay Sagebrush]

I have north of 20K in mine. Great gun, very easy to shoot well. Very light recoil, and shot to shot split times are rather quick.

I am a long time 1911 fan and carried one for both work and play for years, before switching to the modern guns. One thing to consider is this:


For essentially the same weight I get 9 rounds of .45....

https://i.imgur.com/9gkZtmO.jpg

or

43 rounds of 9mm.

https://i.imgur.com/SnvDL8j.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

the Army bought $581 million dollars worth of P320's at $207 ea. Glock was at $270 each. They lost out on that contract. And the lowest bidder got it. The Sig gun is probably a decent gun, Sig doesn't generally make garbage. But they won't know for another 10 years if it was a prudent buy or not.

It was all about the cost and the decision to go to 9MM was all about cost as well. Anyone with a brain knows that .45's are a better man stopper than 9mm's but they do cost more, and so cost won out as the defining factor..


Randy

[6bg6ga]

the Army bought $581 million dollars worth of P320's at $207 ea. Glock was at $270 each. They lost out on that contract. And the lowest bidder got it. The Sig gun is probably a decent gun, Sig doesn't generally make garbage. But they won't know for another 10 years if it was a prudent buy or not.

It was all about the cost and the decision to go to 9MM was all about cost as well. Anyone with a brain knows that .45's are a better man stopper than 9mm's but they do cost more, and so cost won out as the defining factor..


Randy

As one that has owned a Sig 1911 Tac Pac I can tell you that I will never have another one. It shot great but the problem for me was the trigger pull that was extremely excessive. The problem is that Sig has extra stuff inside making it nearly impossible to make the trigger pull decent in their 1911. Having said that I do realize that those in the military don't need a 3lb or less trigger pull like I do but it does make one wonder if those extra parts wouldn't contribute to excessive trips to the armoror.

I believe and was told by a number of former military personal that the contributing factors in going to the 9mm were that the round needed to be a NATO round, you can carry more 9mm than 45's and if we ran low on ammo our NATO friends on the field could contribute needed ammunition.

The move to the Sig will be one that will bite our military in the asp but then again they don't seem to care too much because if it doesn't work out someone will cut a blank check and move on.

[Lefty Red]

I have a background as both an end-user of a various weapons systems, as well as being cross trained as an armorer on a large assortment of weapons ranging from belt fed machine guns, to semi auto sniper systems (SR-25/M110) as well as the M24, to Glock, M203 grenade launchers, you name it. The .gov has sent me to various defense manufacturers to learn these systems inside and out, and I spent weeks at a time receiving a very in-depth education in the field.

Do Glocks break? Absolutely. I have repaired more than a few, but compared to other designed I have had to deal with, they are substantially easier to repair and to keep running. Plus anyone who can count to Potato and can read the directions in a Legos set can repair a Glock in the field, if the issue is a minor one, and they are properly trained.

What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?

Interesting it hear your response due to your lengthy use in the field with those weapons over the casual user's experience.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[6bg6ga]

What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'll throw my two cents in.

In my model 23 I have replaced springs for normal wear. The firing pin spring seemed to get weak on me for one.

[Bigslug]

What parts on the Glock 17/19 have you seen needed replace on a set maintenance schedule and what parts have broken and caused downtime of the weapon the majority of the time?

Interesting it hear your response due to your lengthy use in the field with those weapons over the casual user's experience.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm intimately acquainted with the maintenance issues of the Gen 3 22 and 23 (.40). The ugly stuff on those seems to appear in the 2000-3000 round ballpark if you aren't swapping recoil springs. You might see the same issues on the 9mm's but MUCH farther along on the round count. The Gen 4's, which are sprung according to caliber seem to roughly double the figure, but I've not needed to change anything at all on those several years into them.

The impressive thing is, they will run (after a fashion) with an impressive number of broken parts in them:

Locking block pin: it provides a surface against which the slide stop spring gets its downward tension. If the pin breaks, and the left side falls out, the slide stop starts flopping and you get slide lock even if you're not out of ammo. Tap and rack gets you another shot, and holding the slide stop down with a thumb will run essentially as normal. NOTE: The new Gen 5 won't even have this pin anymore, and early indications are that Glock may not even bother making the G5 in .40.

Trigger pin: Only seen a tiny handful of those go. On my 22 (old when I got it secondhand), the trigger pull was AWFUL with the broken pin in place, but the gun functioned.

Trigger spring: Only seen one die. If you properly reset the trigger each shot instead of jerkily letting go like it burned you, you may never even notice it's broken. The trigger bars got redesigned several years ago to have the hooks of that spring bear on a rounded surface instead of a 90-degree corner, so life of that part (which I've never known to be a real issue) just got even longer.

If you're going to break a frame rail, I'll bet its the left rear one, and the gun will probably run just fine until you notice it's gone.

The model 22 seems to have something in it's firing dynamics geometry that causes the firing pin and firing pin safety to bang on each other to a point where you will eventually be able to push the firing pin past the safety, requiring replacement of the safety (cheap) firing pin (less so) or both. I say "requiring" because testing that's a function check, and failing that necessitates repair. It is, however, a safety that is redundant , what with the the trigger bar holding the firing pin back off a primer until the trigger is pulled. Yeah, i'd fix it if that were the issue, but if the Zombie Apocalypse was in full swing, I wouldn't lose any sleep over that particular concern.

[Lefty Red]

Thanks Bigslug.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Good Cheer]

1909 Army is still running just fine.:rolleyes:

[tazman]

I finally got some experience with a Glock handgun a couple of days ago. I mentioned this in another thread about how I had issues with the trigger due to a quirk of mine. This issue would most likely not be a problem for someone without my particular difficulty.
The gun(Glock 34) handled well and functioned perfectly and when I was able to do my part(about 70% of the time) the pistol was accurate.
Any problems I had with the gun were purely a personal issue and not any fault of the weapon itself. It does exactly what it was designed to do.
I just happen to have a quirk that won't allow me to use that particular brand of firearm. At least without a lot of practice and probably some modifications.

[BHill]

The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.:twisted:

[6bg6ga]

The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.:twisted:

Like a Timex watch takes a licken and keeps on ticking

[tazman]

The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.:twisted:

Now that is funny.
It is also true.

[DerekP Houston]

The nice things about Glocks are if you run out of ammo you are not so attached to it that you would think twice about beating the dickens out of something with it.:twisted:

How does everyone get ahold of these "cheap" glocks? Everyone I've seen in the store is 500+...or is that still considered a 'cheap gun' these days?

[jmort]

It won't be long until the Glock drones will be in the same boat as the 1911 drones. So that should offend everybody.
I am on the 320 bandwagon. That is the future.

[dragon813gt]

How does everyone get ahold of these "cheap" glocks? Everyone I've seen in the store is 500+...or is that still considered a 'cheap gun' these days?

Blue label pricing.

[tazman]

How does everyone get ahold of these "cheap" glocks? Everyone I've seen in the store is 500+...or is that still considered a 'cheap gun' these days?

I am thinking police department trade in. When police departments purchase in quantity, they sell or trade in the old guns fairly cheap.

[kywoodwrkr]

Tazman, you're probably correct.
A retired Ky St Trooper came into bookstore yesterday and said he had just been(that morning) at a buying frenzy.
Ky is evidently going back to 9mm(brand=G17?) and getting rid of current Glocks(G35&G27).
Troopers were given first option to buy their personal weapon and then others(?) could buy what was left.
Think he said a fellow retired trooper friend walked away with 3 Glocks at about $400 @ models(?).
YMMV

[Lefty Red]

It won't be long until the Glock drones will be in the same boat as the 1911 drones. So that should offend everybody.
I am on the 320 bandwagon. That is the future.

☝️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[6bg6ga]

I am thinking police department trade in. When police departments purchase in quantity, they sell or trade in the old guns fairly cheap.

Unfortunately those used police Glocks usually go for around $375-400 retail

[tazman]

Unfortunately those used police Glocks usually go for around $375-400 retail

So I found out after I posted. Too many people looking at them I guess. No longer the really good deal they used to be.

[wistlepig1]

S/W 66 or Colt 1911 my choice.

[6bg6ga]

I'm going to let go of my Glock 35 so if you think you want to try it out get a hold of me and we can meet and go to the range.

[6bg6ga]

Unfortunately those used police Glocks usually go for around $375-400 retail

Be careful purchasing one of those because some of the triggers require additional effort over and beyond the general public trigger. My 23 came from New York and had roughly an 8lb-9lb trigger as tested.

[Bigslug]

It won't be long until the Glock drones will be in the same boat as the 1911 drones. So that should offend everybody.
I am on the 320 bandwagon. That is the future.

It's probably a very good gun for astronauts. . .those discharges caused by dropping the gun aren't a problem when you don't have gravity to worry about. The recall need not apply to SWAT teams on the moon. :mrgreen:

[tazman]

I really don't want much in a handgun. It just needs to be easy to operate, superbly accurate, durable enough to shoot 300 rounds a week for the rest of my life without any breakage, and function perfectly with any ammunition while clean or dirty. It also needs to be very inexpensive.
Too bad I haven't found one yet.

[BHill]

How does everyone get ahold of these "cheap" glocks? Everyone I've seen in the store is 500+...or is that still considered a 'cheap gun' these days?

I never said "cheap" just not so attached:)

[BHill]

I really don't want much in a handgun. It just needs to be easy to operate, superbly accurate, durable enough to shoot 300 rounds a week for the rest of my life without any breakage, and function perfectly with any ammunition while clean or dirty. It also needs to be very inexpensive.
Too bad I haven't found one yet.

Glad you don't want anything to difficult.

[6bg6ga]

Unfortunately any gun will break. Asking for a specific gun that will last shooting 300 rounds a week for the rest of your life is well kind of a crazy thought. Everything breaks and just about the time you think you have something by the tail it turns and bites you in the asp. There is no perfect gun and I keep harping on that but unfortunately it isn't sinking in for some reason. Taz, everything breaks nothing runs like a Deere, and there is no Santa. Please get over it close your eyes pick something based on what YOU want and pray to the almighty that your pick will last the rest of your life and move on.

[tazman]

Unfortunately any gun will break. Asking for a specific gun that will last shooting 300 rounds a week for the rest of your life is well kind of a crazy thought. Everything breaks and just about the time you think you have something by the tail it turns and bites you in the asp. There is no perfect gun and I keep harping on that but unfortunately it isn't sinking in for some reason. Taz, everything breaks nothing runs like a Deere, and there is no Santa. Please get over it close your eyes pick something based on what YOU want and pray to the almighty that your pick will last the rest of your life and move on.

I am aware of that. That is why the post was in purple font. It was sarcasm directed at myself.

[jmort]

It's probably a very good gun for astronauts. . .those discharges caused by dropping the gun aren't a problem when you don't have gravity to worry about. The recall need not apply to SWAT teams on the moon. :mrgreen:

None of the LEO models were recalled. Glock is the only firearm that has a real nice moniker:
"Glock Kaboom"
Sig has addressed the problem for those on the short bus.
Glock Fan Boys are peeing their pants. Not perfection. Sorry. Go change your pants.

[dragon813gt]

I am aware of that. That is why the post was in purple font. It was sarcasm directed at myself.

That's why I don't bother w/ purple font. Even w/ the font it's lost on a lot of people. You could tell your post was full of sarcasm w/out the font.

Now the post itself. It's honestly NOT asking for to much. It's the never breaking part that's the tough one. Inexpensive is individual dependent. There are quite a few guns that meet your criteria IMO.

[tazman]

That's why I don't bother w/ purple font. Even w/ the font it's lost on a lot of people. You could tell your post was full of sarcasm w/out the font.

Now the post itself. It's honestly NOT asking for to much. It's the never breaking part that's the tough one. Inexpensive is individual dependent. There are quite a few guns that meet your criteria IMO.

True. Very true. Particularly the last three sentences. I knew the not breaking part was an impossibility when I posted it.
I already own several of the guns mentioned in the posts. As I said before, I probably already own the guns I will end up with. I was looking for opinions and experience that I may have missed out on.
Due to advice in this thread I have tried out a Glock and may well try out other handguns. There is much good advice presented in this thread and I appreciate the time everyone took to post it.

[dragon813gt]

Sorry about that. I edited my post. I meant to say NOT asking for to much. I proofread it a few times and still missed the fact that NOT was missing from it. You aren't asking for much IMO.

[tazman]

That's ok. I edited my post to correct for your editing of your statement.(does that make sense?)

[Kosh75287]

I'D vote for my 1982-model Ruger Police Service Six, or my 1989 Springfield Armory National Match 1911A1. Probably have 20,000 rounds through each one, not all of them the most moderate loads, but they both shoot well, and never fail to function (unless the ammo or shooter fails to do their respective parts).

I've run .357 Magnum reloads through the PS6 that probably would have rattled a new N-Frame S&W .357, but the darned thing just drill the rounds in wherever I Point it, and asked for more, when I'm done! The double-action trigger was very uneven when I first got it, but it has smoothed out very nicely. I'm GUESSING that the force needed to operate it double-action has decreased some, but no trigger work was ever done on it.

The 1911A1 NM has been a constant companion since 1989, and has never let me down even in the most critical of situations. The only gunsmithing it has ever had is silver-soldering the thumb-safety spring & plunger tube in place. If memory serves, this was after I had tried to exceed 1000 f/s with a 200gr. LSWC, using injudicious amounts of Alliant Unique, not using a shock-buffer. Given the battering involved, I consider the plunger tube MY failure, not the pistol's.

I have a Ruger RedHawk in .45 Colt, which is probably the strongest large-bore revolver I've ever owned. I bought it used, so I'm not sure what year it was made, nor what was run through it before I bought it. It's been eating a steady diet of 8.0/Unique/250 RNFP or 18.5/2400/250RNFP since I'VE owned it, and my shooting hand always wants to quit before the revolver does.

When I bought it, I thought it was close to the same size as the S&W M29, but it's noticeably bigger (and heavier) in every respect. Double-action pull is smooth, single-action let-off is not QUITE as crisp as I'd like, but it's easy to get used to. Of all my sidearms, it is the easiest one with which to hit 10" gongs at 100 yards. Even with the lighter loads, it makes gong-shooting so easy, it's darned-near boring. I've been very fortunate with the reliability of all 3 weapons.

[6bg6ga]

That's why I don't bother w/ purple font. Even w/ the font it's lost on a lot of people. You could tell your post was full of sarcasm w/out the font.

Now the post itself. It's honestly NOT asking for to much. It's the never breaking part that's the tough one. Inexpensive is individual dependent. There are quite a few guns that meet your criteria IMO.


Never knew purple was for sarcasm. I just like giving Taz a hard time. Just kidding Taz.

[tazman]

Never knew purple was for sarcasm. I just like giving Taz a hard time. Just kidding Taz.

I was coming to that conclusion.

[robertbank]

I really don't want much in a handgun. It just needs to be easy to operate, superbly accurate, durable enough to shoot 300 rounds a week for the rest of my life without any breakage, and function perfectly with any ammunition while clean or dirty. It also needs to be very inexpensive.
Too bad I haven't found one yet.

Sounds like you want a Beretta 92FS or the 92A1 Variant. Will shoot to three inches at 50 meters, loads and shoots anything you put in it and lasts forever with care.

Take Care

Bob

[rfd]

ruger gp100 or sp101 in .357 mag - these are little tanks that take a lickin and keep on tickin. take yer pick for DA or SA. no jams, no issues, fast enuf speedloads.

[birch]

This might sound strange, but if I could only pick one gun to carry around, I would have to say my Colt SAA would be my companion. It was the gun that got me into reloading, and although I only have a couple thousand rounds through it, I have never had a jam or malfunction and the timing is perfect. I held a well used first generation at the local GS, and it was almost as tight as my 2005 model.

I think there is something to be said for the old iron.

[Bigslug]

None of the LEO models were recalled. Glock is the only firearm that has a real nice moniker:
"Glock Kaboom"
Sig has addressed the problem for those on the short bus.
Glock Fan Boys are peeing their pants. Not perfection. Sorry. Go change your pants.

Actually, ALL of the non-military P320 models - civilian AND LE alike - are being recalled for varying degrees of surgery, and to their credit, Sig seems to be taking steps to make that aspect of it right at least - AFTER the problem went viral on them. Meanwhile, on the military side, the debacle of their pistol being selected in spite of doing quite poorly in the minor fraction of the Army trial that was actually run to completion continues to play out. . . At this point, I'd be more inclined to buy pistols that WEREN'T submitted to U.S. Ordnance for testing, as the only way to gain consideration in that arena seems to be to outfit the gun with an MRE heater, automatic pup-tent erector, and a shave kit. The problem - putting an effective hole in the other guy - hasn't significantly changed in the last century . . .so why do we need to load a pistol up with "NEW"?

But all that aside, why even submit a complete Johnny-come-lately (and a scandal-ridden one at that) into a conversation such as this? If you like the P320, great; I hope the two of you will have many years of happiness together. But as of right now, the pistol has established zero credibility on the "Timex watch" scale. At the moment, its state feels a lot like the early M16, with unchromed bores, cartridges full of action-freezing ball powder, and no cleaning kits or instructions issued. A key pillar of this thread is ability to stand the test of time. While the M16/M4 was eventually debugged to do just that, why bring up the fledgling P320 in the company of designs that have been functioning for decades unless you have already personally run a long pickup bed full of ammo through yours? At least let the dough bake a few minutes before offering us a cookie.

[swheeler]

Durabitlity and reliability, which handgun is the best? To me that has Ruger BH written all over it!

[tazman]

Just for the record, I am NOT considering a SIG P320 at this time due to the recent problems they seem to have. That particular handgun can wait a while.
It also seems that some of the gen4 Glock pistols are having slide breakage issues at 2-4k rounds. It doesn't seem to effect their function, but the slide is breaking nonetheless.
At least Glock is standing behind their pistol and doing replacements on them as needed.

[Skunk1]

One of my tiger security six's 357 and 1911.

[robertbank]

Personally I think the 320 situation is way overblown. First it doesn't affect the military guns as they have a different trigger group and second the pistol passes the SAMMI requirements for drop tests. It doesn't when hit at a 39 degree angle or was it 38 but pistols are not tested that way so who is to say how many other pistols would fail the same test. Most of this is issue is being bandied about by the Glock crowd who can.t get over the fact SIG won and Glock lost.

Having said all of that I really don't understand why they didn't just buy more M9 pistols to replace the worn out ones. It isn't like the US Army is going to march off to war with only a pistol. Just another way for governments to burn taxpayers money I guess. I can only imagine what our crowd will come up with to replace the Hi-Powers. Right now the Navy and our Special Forces are using SIG 226's and some Glocks.

Take Care

Bob