War Dept approval on a Shiloh 1874 Sporter #3

[Big Mak]

So, I haven't "bought" yet but I got approval through the financial CEO and War Department (wife- aka SWMBO) to order and put a down payment on a Shiloh Sharps 1874 Sporter #3 when we pass through Montana in two weeks. It will be 2 years before it's built most likely and a down payment of 10% is the norm from what I hear, until the build starts.

I retire June 28th 2018 so this is an early/late retirement gift. :) This should lessen the wear on my Springfield 1873 (built in 1883) Trapdoor. (https://sportsdad60.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/) (*hyperlinked if you want to see it, in bold)
I'm a simple guy, that loves to shoot mid range (300-500). I *might* take it out long range once in a while. I don't need fancy wood, etc etc. Just a working man's rifle.
Feedback appreciated on my choices!

Here are the details.

1874 SPORTER #3

1874 SPORTER #3
CALIBER: 45-70
BARREL LENGTH: 32"
BARREL WEIGHT: HVY.OCT BARREL
FEATURES: NONE
WOOD UPGRADES: STANDARD WOOD FINISHES: AA - Standard (+$170.00)
METAL FINISHES: STANDARD COLOR CASED BUTTPLATE: MILITARY BACKGROUND
BRASS ESCUTCHEONS: NONE
CUSTOM BEDDING: CUSTOM BED (+$50.00)
SLING SWIVELS: NONE
TRADITIONAL CHECKERING: NONE
FOREARM TIP: NONE
HARTFORD COLLAR: NONE
POLISHED SCREWS: FIREBLUED (+$77.00)
PISTOL GRIP: NONE
PATCHBOX: NONE
REAR BARREL SIGHT: NO REAR DOVETAIL
VERNIER TANG SIGHTS: #108 MID-RANGE (+$316.00)
FRONT SIGHT: SHILOH #111 (+$80.00)
DRILL AND TAP MVA SCOPE: NONE

Photo shown with fancy wood and round barrel (not ordered as photo suggests, it is a stock website photo):

[Eldon]

Nice ! BUT the secrets are:
1. A separate CC for guns w/bills sent to YOUR p.o. box.
2. Have so many she can't count them all.
3. Whenever you leave the house with a cased gun, carry an extra empty case as..... you just never know.

If you don't wish to wait two years, there is no shortage of hardly used ones available. Folks are captivated by being "Quigley" but the luster wears off quickly with the BP cleaning and recoil.

Like this one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/675515913

or:

https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Shiloh-Rifle-Mfg-Co-Inc-1874-Rifle/37525687/LotDetail.asp?lid=37525687&rts=/asp/searchadvanced_i.asp%23searchid%3D0%26type%3Dlot%2 6search%3D1874%2Bsharps%26sort%3Drelevance%26view% 3Dgallery%26length%3D25%26start%3D1%26refine%3D#to poflot

or, even a real one !

https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Mid-Range-Marked-Sharps-Model-1874-Rifle/37525982/LotDetail.asp?lid=37525982&rts=/asp/searchadvanced_i.asp%23searchid%3D0%26type%3Dlot%2 6search%3D1874%2Bsharps%26sort%3Drelevance%26view% 3Dgallery%26length%3D25%26start%3D1%26refine%3D#to poflot

[Boz330]

I ordered a #1 in 40-50SS for a fun gun to hunt and shoot mid-range with. And of course silly-wets. Since I'm a pretty old guy I went through Bill Goodman. My best friend ordered a Ferris rifle from Lee Shaver and died before he ever saw it.
My wife lost count a long time ago, as a matter of fact so did I until I did an inventory one weekend. I was actually surprised how many I had. Recently did a sell down to finance the Sharps.

Bob

[Gunlaker]

Looks like a nice rifle! I definitely recommend Bill Goodman if you want it quicker. I recently got one from him and it took a little longer than he expected it to, but much faster than an order directly from Shiloh.

If you are sold on the #3 buttstock then you might want to think of the add-on ebony pistol grip. I have one like that and it's excellent for silhouette and midrange. The drop on the stock is less than ideal for long range.

I would recommend changing the front sight to the low profile with spirit level. The spirit level will be your friend as you shoot further distances, it's certainly going to make you more consistent at midrange distances.

Chris.

[country gent]

Sounds like a very nice rifle. The only other upgrade I did in addition to what you have is I went with better wood for the looks. I also have the long range rear sight on mine. May not be needed but nice if you ever do need it.

[Randy Bohannon]

Mac, when you come to Buffalo,we can go the range and you can shoot my 2 #1's,the pistol grip sure makes lining the sights up and keeping it there much easier at longer ranges..

[Yellowhouse]

I highly recommend going for the shotgun butt over the military. Also if you're going to compete the Roughrider pistol grip stock is more comfortable.

[Don McDowell]

If the gun is primarily a hunting rifle or mostly shooting from sitting or offhand, then the military butt is fine. But like yellow house says if you're looking to shoot some competition with it, a #1 or a roughrider would be a better choice. I would also suggest a 30 in barrel if going with the heavy octagon, 32 inch would be good in a standard weight barrel.

[EDG]

Ditch the 32" barrel for a 30" barrel. Get rid of that awful military butt. You will enjoy shooting the shotgun butt pistol grip version. The military butt version will be just another used rifle on the market in a few years.

[rfd]

30" barrel, shotgun butt, pistol grip sporter #1, the way to go - got a good half year left 'fore that special letter arrives. :)

[Big Mak]

*** but much faster than an order directly from Shiloh.

If you are sold on the #3 buttstock then you might want to think of the add-on ebony pistol grip. I have one like that and it's excellent for silhouette and midrange. The drop on the stock is less than ideal for long range.

I would recommend changing the front sight to the low profile with spirit level. The spirit level will be your friend as you shoot further distances, it's certainly going to make you more consistent at midrange distances.

Chris.
Thank you for the feedback Chris. I appreciate it. Speed is not an issue right now. I'm patient.
I've given second thought to the pistol grip along with the shotgun buttplate, .
Can you point me in the direction of what the different types of Shiloh fronts sights mean? e.g. MVA #113, etc.



Mac, when you come to Buffalo,we can go the range and you can shoot my 2 #1's,the pistol grip sure makes lining the sights up and keeping it there much easier at longer ranges..

Randy, that is a very nice offer but unfortunately we won't have time to stop but for a night this time. We'll be back though, next time with a 37 ft 5th wheel! :)
We will call you once we get north of Casper to plan out Monday evening.
We plan to park and 'shoot' the solar eclipse with my filtered spotting scope and DSLR camera just north of Casper wherever we can find a safe place to pull over.





30" barrel, shotgun butt, pistol grip sporter #1, the way to go - got a good half year left 'fore that special letter arrives. :)

rfd, can you tell me the primary difference between the #1 and #3? I guess I will find out in 10 days but I'd like a little heads up.

Thank you all for the feedback.

[Big Mak]

After consideration of the feedback and further research.... A Sporter #1 might make more sense.
I am currently using the trapdoor for midrange (300-500) and it's a fine rifle for that range. It's a very accurate rifle, moreso than the shooter! :)

I intend to use this new rifle primarily as a long range shooter, and I doubt I'd ever use it for hunting.
My hunting days are over except for duck, goose, upland bird.

I guess I need more research!

[Don McDowell]

BigMak, the #3 is just what you have pictured in your op. The #1 has a pistol grip, cheek rest, shotgun butt, and less drop in the stock.
I own both those and a roughrider, the #3 is a fun rifle until you shoot it prone, then it gets hard on your collar bone.

[Don McDowell]

After consideration of the feedback and further research.... A Sporter #1 might make more sense.
I am currently using the trapdoor for midrange (300-500) and it's a fine rifle for that range. It's a very accurate rifle, moreso than the shooter! :)

I intend to use this new rifle primarily as a long range shooter, and I doubt I'd ever use it for hunting.
My hunting days are over except for duck, goose, upland bird.

I guess I need more research!

If your main intention is for target shooting, then stay with the 32 inch barrel, altho it may not make weight should you ever decide to take on a bpcr silhouette match. I prefer the 32 inch barrel for the bptr matches.

[Gunlaker]

Big Mak, the #113 sight is MVA's lowest profile Sharps sight that has a spirit level. It's 0.525" from the bottom of the dovetail to the center of the sight. Lower is better because you need a little less elevation on the rear sight to reach the same distance. Another sight to give serious thought to is the Distant Thunder midrange sight. It's just a few thousandths taller but has the spirit level inside the globe which can be an advantage over the MVA sights depending on the angle to the sun. I've had it so I could not see the bubble in the MVA spirit level due to the sun's glare. That sight also doesn't use a spring clip which is an improvement IMO. But it's less authentic than the MVA Sharps style.

I also like longer barrels for BPTR prone shooting. For anything where there is offhand shooting like silhouette or "midrange position", I would go with a 30", but for prone longer won't hurt, and the extra weight can be nice.

I wipe between shots, and it seems to work well in barrels up to 34". Some have troubles with the longer barrels but I think those are mostly blow tubers.

Chris.

[Big Mak]

My build finally hit the floor after 20 .months wait. Now another 4 month wait while they actually build it. I ordered in April of 2018.


I ended up going with the Montana Roughrider, 45-70, 30 " octagonal.

The sights I am ordering are MVA's.
VERNIER TANG SIGHTS: #107 - LONG RANGE (+$353.00); FRONT SIGHT: MVA #113 (+$167.00);

TWO QUESTIONS:
1) What is the Dove tail dimensions for a Shiloh Sharps on the front site?

2) Should I go with the adjustable windage MVA sight instead?
#112 Spirit Level with Windage Sight

[BrentD]

I have never really needed front end windage. There was one time I could have put it to work, had I had it, but it wouldn't have really been that helpful. I do hate the way the sights get hung up and bashed on everything. So, I would say NO! to adjustable front sights.

I hate to say it but I don't much care for the nonwindage MVA front sight either. That is the only product MVA makes that I do not care for. That spring clip - just waiting to get bent, busted, and caught on something.

Just my two cents.

[Big Mak]

Brent, what brand would you recommend?

[BrentD]

Well, if Mr. Distant Thunder were to chime in here from his beach-side retirement on the Riviera with, "I've got one more left I could sell ya," I would by it in a heart beat. Otherwise, I would buy a Steve Baldwin front sight. Both of these are bomb proof and perfect.

[Gunlaker]

With respect to the rear sight, I would choose an MVA Soule sight over the MVA Vernier tang sight. Way easier to get quick and repeatable settings for windage. With the MVA midrange soule on my Shiloh in .45-70, with a Lee Shaver front sight, I've shot to 880 yards on gongs. It had more elevation left, but not likely for 1000.

So I'd recommend the 101 midrange for anything 800-900 yards and less. Further than that and I'd use the long range soule.

Chris.

[country gent]

I use the MCA sights and like them the soules are very good. I have one windgage front. Where I use it and how is on windy days I make the rough correction on the front at the start of the relay, using the rear soules windage to make fine and keep up. ( hopefully ahead off). The problem with the front wind gage sight is you have to move the rifle around so much to make corrections using it for every adjustment. Thin about sliding the roofle back and forth to get to the front sight for every adjustment.

[Tom Herman]

20 months and they are just getting around to build it now?!? OUCH!!!
Glad that your dream rifle is going to be a reality soon.
I lucked into a Pedersoli #3 Sporter... Really happy with it.
Doubly so for the 1859 ORIGINAL Sharps I blundered into recently...
Hope your retirement is going well!

-Tom

[Big Mak]

Thanks for the feedback.
I've decided to go with the Baldwin, long range and front site.

[BrentD]

That will work well. Very well.

[Big Mak]

That will work well. Very well.
Steve was very prompt in getting back to me with questions I had. That sold me! He will send them to Shiloh with my order number and send me and invoice.

Some mentioned getting it drill and tap at 10 and 13" spacung for an A scope should my eyesight start failing me in the future.
What do y'all think of this?

[sharpsguy]

Not much. When your eyes start to go, GET GLASSES. Don't go drilling a bunch of holes in the barrel.

[BrentD]

Nothing wrong with thinking ahead. but I would STRONGLY recommend 7.2" spacing not 10 or 13".

Scopes are nice from time to time, they can double the amount of match shooting you can do sometimes, and they make things like load development a bit easier though not necessarily better.

[Tom Herman]

Not much. When your eyes start to go, GET GLASSES.

I wear glasses and they do NOT help me to see through both the front and rear sights at the SAME time... I think a scope would be a good idea.
My question would be where to put the holes: What is standard, and/or period correct?

[BrentD]

I wear glasses and they do NOT help me to see through both the front and rear sights at the SAME time... I think a scope would be a good idea.
My question would be where to put the holes: What is standard, and/or period correct?

There is no period correct position for a scope. Decide upon the scope and usage. But I highly recommend 7.2" because MOST scopes work better that way. On the other hand, if you want a super long Malcomb style of scope, then other spacing will be mandated, but you will lose some functionality.

What distances, uses, and types of scopes do you have in mind?

I prefer an MVA Winchester 5B with #2 mounts. 7.2 is really the only sane choice for such a scope. It will reach from chickens to pigs. It is a little bit modern relative to Sharps rifles, but then all scopes will be somewhat modern for a Sharps in someways. I use it for silhouette from 200-500 meters. It won't reach 1000 without different mounting blocks. I do not, however, shoot scope at 1000 yds.
https://montanavintagearms.com/product/winchester-scopes/winchester-b-series-scope-with-no-2-mount/

Alternatively, you could go for an older style of scope. Looks cool but is not quite so functional, esp. the really long ones.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/02/narwhal-tusk-london-bridge-attacker-polish-man-terrorist

If your plan is to shoot way out to 1000, scope choice will be really challenging and may require separate blocks to reach that far, but the challenge will be proportionally more difficult as the spacing between the mounts get longer. Think about the geometry.

[Bent Ramrod]

If you have a family history of poor vision with aging, cataracts, etc, you might do well to get scope holes drilled in your barrel for any future contingencies. I had to drill and tap and mount scope blocks on two of my rifles after my “good” eye got a detached retina. I had to switch to left-handed shooting with my “less bad” eye for iron sights, but scoped two of the rifles so I could continue to shoot right-handed. As things turned out, I shoot (pretty much) left-handed for everything now, just to keep the muscle memory from fading.

If you get the barrel factory drilled, tapped and plugged for later use, Shiloh may be able to arrange the barrel markings so the scope blocks don’t obscure them. If you get it done later, you will almost certainly cover up the caliber marking, anyway. Whether this bothers you or not is your call. I have a couple rifles I’m keeping iron-sighted, because they look better to me that way, and can still be shot well enough off the bench for load experiments, etc, when the light is right.

The 7.2” spacing is for the Winchester A and B scopes and their copies, Lyman Targetspots, and so forth. The short-spacing scopes don’t look right to me on a buffalo rifle, but they have an advantage of much more elevation potential than the longer ones. Longer scopes (the longer the better) look more “period” to me; I got the 28-1/2” MVA with the 10” block spacing (so each division on the screw was 1 MOA) but had to put a riser under the rear block to get out into the 900+ yard gongs. The Zero scope setting is on at 200 meters, but the rifle is only used for target shooting, so this isn’t a problem for me. I have to aim low for 150 yard offhand targets, but that can be managed. Gary, my sometime spotter, has a MVA B5 on his Rolling Block; it screams “anachronism!!” every time I see it, but he can dial it in for anything between 10 and 800 yards or more.

I wanted a full-length scope (if I had to have a scope at all) but Jim Gier at MVA pointed out that it was too long to get any really practical long-range elevations with, and I’d be spending a lot of time wiping smoke and lube off the front lens. A phone consultation with MVA might be to your advantage in figuring out what you really want and can live with.

[Gunlaker]

I shoot with a number of different BPCR scopes. I don't have the newer A series scope, but it apparently has a long enough Pope rib to work with either 7.2" or 10.23" spacing. The earlier 23" scopes ( 2000 series ) won't work with a 7.2" spacing. At least not on any of my rifles as the eye relief is wrong. My rifles with 7.2" spacing use DZ Arms scopes, but I plan on trying an 8x "A" series scope as it will work with most of my rifles.

7.2" will give you the most range in elevation, as well as simpler arithmetic when adjusting the knobs. I do have a number of rifles with the 10.23" spacing and they work fine, but you have to be able to deal with 0.003" per MOA adjustments which requires you to be good at arithmetic when under time pressure :-).

As mentioned previously, the closer spacing has the advantage of keeping your head lower on the stock. The longer scopes like the MVA 28" with a 17" mount spacing makes this pretty apparent. One of my long range rifles has this setup and while it works just fine, it would be nice to keep my head lower at long range. Interestingly enough though, the height of the eye piece on my 34" barreled Shiloh is pretty much identical at 1000 yards whether using my 28" scope or MVA Soule sight.

Regardless, I'd get it drilled and tapped, even if you end up just putting in filler screws for now.

Chris.

[Big Mak]

Gunlaker, Brent and Bent...good input. Thank you.

[WBH]

I had the barrel blocks installed by John King for myMVA scope. 3/4" tube of course, but period approriate. I think the scope was about $1000 ten years ago.
Good luck with your rifle. Shilo makes a fine one. I remember when they were in Farmingdale NY a block over from my business back then.