38-55 Die Question

[schutzen]

Ok, all you 38-55 reloaders, tell me; which set of dies do I want for reloading my new 38-55? The RCBS Legacy or the RCBS Cowboy dies? I'm not sure what the difference is. Before you answer, I am not a Cowboy Action shooter. I will be using this rifle (Marlin 336T) to hunt deer and hogs in heavy river bottom brush.

Plus, if anybody has any favorite 38-55 loads they would care to share deer season will only be several weeks away when I get everything together (gun, dies, bullets, powder, etc). A leg up on loads would be nice.

Thanks, Schutzen

[C A Plater]

My usual die preference by brand is Redding, RCBS, everything else except Lee, and Lee if nothing else available. That said my .38-55 set is a Lyman with a "M" expanding die added. They work quite well. I may get a Lee crimp die but now do not see the need for one right now. No great loads yet as I'm still sorting out the H&R problem child. So far I can reliable make round holes in the target paper instead of the sideways profile look of factory loads. 30 grains of IMR-3031 with a store bought 245 grain cast from Lazer Cast may have potential but needs work. H4198 is also showing real promise. As soon as I figure out what bullet weight it likes best I'll get a Mountain Mold made for this puppy.

[oneokie]

Before recommending a die set, need to know what the groove dia. of the barrel is. This will tell what size boolit you will need to load.

The RCBS Cowboy dies do not size the brass down as much as the standard dies. IIRC, with standard dies, a .377" boolit is as large as can be seated with out having a catfish belly look to the loaded cartridge.

As to loads, your rifle will tell you what it likes and dislikes. Could be anything.

[Jon K]

What oneokie said, know what size you're dealing with first. sometimes brand doesn't matter, but SIZE MATTERS.........a chamber cast will tell you exactly what you're dealing with, and maybe more than you want to do, but there are more variations with the 38-55 than probably any other. If you buy the opposite of what you have , you'll be buying more. That's the bottom line.

Jon

[GabbyM]

Do you know if you want a gas check bullet or plain base?

We've managed great accuracy out of the plain based Saeco #738 tapered bullet in 255gr weight up to 1,460fps. With a BHN 12 alloy. 26.2gr of IMR 3031. I size that bullet to .379. The bottom two bands on that tapered bullet cast .382” then they step down in .002” increments. Saeco makes that bullet in a 300gr weight with one more band. If you think you may run into Hogzilla that extra weight may be handy. If we cast those harder they may fly faster before starting to lose their one hole accuracy but they wouldn't expand any.

If you're looking to reach the high velocities you'll want one of the gas checked bullets. I've load books here listing 2,000fps loads for 240gr bullets. Haven't tried any of that myself. Don't own a 38-55 just make the bullets. Not sure at what point your gun would start to kick back at you. I'd think 1700 or 1800 fps would be more reasonable. But I'm not the one shooting it. I'm sure you'll know it when you feel it.

[McLintock]

I like the RCBS Cowboy dies for 38-55 lever guns, as they have two different size expander plugs. So, after determining what size bullet you need, they're more apt to make the case fit it better.
So far as hunting loads go, two different articles come to mind, one from the 2005 Gun Digest on handloading for obsolete cartridges, and another by Ken Waters on the .375 Winchester in Handloader Magazine (1979). For those hogs you'll want a pretty healthy load I'd think, and with the Marlin you should be able to use .375 type loads. Anyway, in the Gun Digest article, for the 38-55, the author liked 31.0 grs of 3031 with the Lyman 375449 gas checked bullet for a deer and black bear load for just short of 1800 fps. The Ken Waters .375 liked 34 grs of 3031 with the same bullet, which should be a really good hog load at just about 1900 fps. Reloader 7 also did good in the 32-34 gr range in the .375. At least something to start with, and if your rifle likes them, you're set.
Good luck,
McLintock

[Irascible]

RCBS Cowboy with a .378 expander (ordered direct from RCBS)replacing the stock one. Redding BR seater has been added, not sure if it did anything
RCBS GC mould run through a .380 sizer (lubed, not sized). Lyman #2 alloy
31 - 32gr H322 Rem 9 1/2 primers velocity about 1850 to 1900

[Pepe Ray]

Schutzen;
Forgive my ignorance, What's the RCBS Legacy? My present supply of periodicals is limited so I may not be UTD on the ads.
Pepe Ray

[schutzen]

Thanks a guy, that’s the kind of information I was looking for. I think I will pick up a set of RCBS Cowboy dies. If neither expander plug is the correct size, I can always build up weld one and then turn it down to the size I need. For bullets I will be using flat nosed, flat based, non gas checked 249 grain lead bullets and I will slug the barrel before I size. It looks like I need to pick up a can of 3031. My rifle should arrive here about September 15th and deer season here starts November 8th. With a little luck I should have a minute of deer load by then.

Thanks, Schutzen

[870TC]

I've been happy with the Lyman 38-55 dies. I use Northern Star Cast Bullets in a Marlin Cowboy and a new Win.94. For plinking and 50yard shooting- 250 FN-PB, 21 gr 4198 or 9 grains of Unique both chrono around 1380fps. For hunting 265gr. FN-GC 28grs of Reloader 7 =1850fps went up to 32 grs for 2050fps but started getting pressure signs.

[hyoder]

You'll want to slug your barrel for sure. The Marlin barrels tend to run on the generous side - .380 - and with a tight chamber. This combination can cause problems with chambering a round loaded with a cast bullet of the proper size for the barrel.

[August]

I had a set of RCBS "Legacy" dies and they did NOT work well for the larger diameter bullets. I took them back. I got a set of RCBS "Cowboy" dies and they have worked very well for both large diameter and smaller diameter bullets since the set comes with two expander plugs. I use the big plug for the Marlin and the small plug for the High Wall.

I believe that the "Legacy" series is a reference to dies that are associated with "obsolete", straight walled cartridges. However, the ones I had in 38-55 were definitely not friendly to lead boolit loading!

Again, I got the Cowboy dies at the recommendation of folks on this board and happily pass that recommendation on to you.

[GabbyM]

A pinch of pillow filling ( Dacron wad ) may help those plain base bullets reach a higher accurate velocity. Fiber wads can be found at Buffalo Arms Co. But they are $17.00 per thousand. About as well buy a gas check. BP competition rules don't allow gas checks so they use the old way.

[schutzen]

Pepe Ray,

According to the RCBS 2008 Catalog:

"Legacy Series Dies
With new calibers and rifles introduced every year, it is a wonder that black powder cartridges are still around! The Legacy series of dies supports these legendary metallic black powder cartridges and the enthusiasts that are shooting original or reproduction black powder rifles."

You now know as much as I do about the Legacy Series dies. As near as I can tell it is pretty much just what August stated, older "obsolete" cartridges that knuckleheads like me want to shoot just for fun.


Schutzen

[schutzen]

Gabby,

Have you ever tried a hard felt wad? I have been wondering if that would work. Punch felt rounds out with a hole punch and glue them to the bullet base. I've never tried it, but it sounds interesting and cheap

[Pepe Ray]

Thank you.
I've been loading/shooting 38-55 Win since 1965. Started with an antique Winchester mold and a plumbers tubing swage. Other than my rifles I have custody of my brother's M94.
Traditionally RCBS has always grouped their dies as Group "A", Group "B", etc. Guess I must get a new catalog to 'catch up'.
Pepe Ray

[GabbyM]

Gabby,

Have you ever tried a hard felt wad? I have been wondering if that would work. Punch felt rounds out with a hole punch and glue them to the bullet base. I've never tried it, but it sounds interesting and cheap
I've never personally owned a cartridge that needed wads. It's in my near future though. As they shoot BPCRS just an hour South of me in Effinham, IL last weekend of the month. 500 yard range for two days. The fellows down their told me I wouldn't be happy with a 38-55 since I'd get a ringer now and then. I'm not so sure. They offered to let me shoot a 45-70 and 45-90. Should of took em up on it. Before I buy one I'll have to give it a try to see if my 53 year old bones can take the thud.

Anyway I've never heard of gluing the wad on. Sounds like that would be detrimental after the bullet left the barrel. It's not going but one direction after that powder lights off anyway.

You can buy the punches or make them. Still need material. Think fire saftey here.
Pillow stuffing Dacron does not leave the barrel burning and you don't need $55 in tools. Your dog may growl at you when you take a chunk of his pillow though.

[schutzen]

Gabby,

I had not thought about the fire issue. I am not sure it would be an issue. I have seen shotgun slugs with felt and fiber wads attached to the slug (the ones I have seen were attached with a screw) and did not ignite. However they may have been treated with a fire retardant.

I believe if you stick to a hard felt like gasket felt and a correct application of a high temperature adhesive, retention of the wad in flight should not be an issue.

I am unsure about both issues. This is beginning to sound like a mid-winter test fire. I have felt on hand and will begin looking for an appropriate adhesive. I'll let you know if anything good results.


Schutzen

[GabbyM]

Pretty sure the felt or veggie fiber doesn't burn. I was thinking more of some of the scrap material I've heard of people punching for wads. I still can't envision gluing the wad on to the bullet. Don't think a tail would help it fly. Have you heard of people doing this?

My dad still has a box of those Brennek shotgun slugs. They used the bolted on fiber wad like the feathers on a bad mitten birdie to fly without tumbling. Had rifled ribs on the slug to advertise imparting a spin. Which they did not. All gimmick. They worked good up close since the lead slug was solid. I bought a Hawkins smoke pole to deer hunt here in IL when I was 16. Before they had the BP seasons. Our cotton patches never burned.

[schutzen]

Gabby,

I have never heard of anyone gluing wads on. But, I do have some experience with high temperature adhesives. I used to work in a power plant. Beginning about 1995 we started using high temp specialty adhesives to secure various light weight, low stress load items to structures that operated at higher than normal temperatures (600-800 degrees F). An adhesive similar to this might work, but only a test firing will answer the question. If I have a slow winter, I intend to find out.

[451whitworth]

i have the Lyman dies. i had to machine up a new expander plug to accept my .381" CB's. the original was too small at .374" and only belled the mouth .378". i have a LBT LFN GC 250gr. mould and use 31.0gr of RL-7.

[Pepe Ray]

Re; burning wads.
In spite of the very high temps, you still must have TIME for the material to ignite. If it's attached to the boolet I don't see much chance of ignition. A wad of toilet paper floating or being carried in the burning/expanding gas just may have a chance.
Pepe Ray