38 Special shaving lead while bullet seating.

[tranders]

Noticed this weekend I was shaving lead while trying to seat some Lee 358-158 RF boolits. These are dropping at .360 and I'm trying to load them without sizing. I have the standard RCBS dies(not Cowboy). My question is will the RCBS Cowboy flaring die or a Lyman M die fix this issue I'm having?

Thanks for the help!

[farmerjim]

I don't know about the cowboy die, but the M die will. NOE also has an insert for the Lee universal flare die that will also work. It is the cheapest if you have the flare die, or will load more than one caliber with cast.

[Kestrel4k]

Tagged for interest, as I have a very similar question. Thx,

[mdhillbilly1]

Noticed this weekend I was shaving lead while trying to seat some Lee 358-158 RF boolits. These are dropping at .360 and I'm trying to load them without sizing. I have the standard RCBS dies(not Cowboy). My question is will the RCBS Cowboy flaring die or a Lyman M die fix this issue I'm having?

Thanks for the help!I was told to purchase a Lyman "M" die to have available in loading all cast bullets.

Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

Your standard Rcbs expander will work if adjusted down to increase the case mouth bell. However too much bell and the case won't enter the seating die. You just have to work with it.

[mdi]

"Bullet Shaving" is caused by a sharp edge smaller than bullet diameter. Three things you can do; use the "M" die, works quite well. Use a flaring tool, also works quite well, but for a new reloader the amount of flare can be problematic. Use a countersink or neck chamfer tool. Will work if there is only a few thousandths of an inch of taper needed...

[tazman]

A lot depends on where in the seating process you are shaving off the lead.
If you are shaving at the base of the boolit, expanding the die more will end the problem.
If you are shaving as you start to crimp, you have a different problem which can be solved by crimping in a separate step.
If the timing on the crimp isn't just right, you will shave lead by cutting into the driving band right before the crimp groove. To avoid this issue while seating and crimping in one step, all cases must be exactly the same length.
I crimp in a separate step on every pistol/revolver cartridge I load. I adjust the seating die so it only straightens out the bell and does nor crimp. I do the crimp with a Lee factory crimp die.

[farmerjim]

One other problem you can have that is solved by the M die or NOE insert is the case swaging down a soft lead boolit. The standard expander will expand the case to .002 smaller than the standard jacketed bullet, or .353. You are forcing a .360 boolit into this case. Unless it is very hard lead, it will be squeezed enough to reduce it in size. The M die and the NOE insert open the case up for the larger diameter boolit and put a flare on the case. NOE inserts are made in sizes to be able to get the .002 under size after expanding. You can check this out by loading a dummy round then pulling and checking the diameter of the pulled boolit.

[OS OK]

If you don't expand the cases correctly, say .001" or .002" smaller than the cast sizing you may be swaging your cast as you are seating them.
Of course that would depend too on the hardness of your cast. I imagine that BHN 10 or less would be susceptible to swaging in a case that's expanded too little. Too little, yes...using an expander meant for j-types.

[Ed_Shot]

I'd recommend an M die with a 38P (Pistol) expander plug (.356 dia) as opposed to the 38AP (AutoPistol) expander plug (.353 dia.)

[gwpercle]

The Lee Universal Neck Expander is good for a simple flair....it does not expand the neck like a Lyman M die but the little NOE insert works like a charm, expanding the neck to the size of your cast boolit and flairing like an M die does ...no sizing down and no shaving on seating. Cheaper than a serarate die also.
I got a NOE .413 expander to go with a .413 boolit mould and it makes boolit seating a snap!
Gary

[Landy88]

If you're cheap - I am.

If you sometimes take your loading with you and use a portable loading kit - I do.

If you're more of a rifle guy, and your presses are single-stage; and you don't want to set-up an extra die each time - I am, they are, and I don't.

201337

http://leeprecision.com/flaring-tool-38.html

[bedbugbilly]

Are you seating and crimping in one operation?

[JeffG]

The RCBS Cowboy expander is a 2 step expander same as an M die. As CharGar notes, run it in a little more for more flare but be careful not to go too far. Make sure you are getting the bullet square in the case before running into seating die. I will sometimes bump the round slightly to get it started, letting it center in the case then make contact with the bullet again and complete the seating slowly and smoothly. If I get too sloppy in technique I can cause the shaving being experienced.

[tranders]

Are you seating and crimping in one operation?
No, I am seating and crimping in seperate operations.

[tranders]

Thanks to all for the recommendations. I ordered a Lyman M die last night.

Hopefully this will take care of the problem.

[Tom W.]

The new rcbs dies have an m die as an expander. I found that out when I bought my 9mm carbide dies. Give them a call and they will send you a new expander plug.

[Kestrel4k]

Tagged for interest, as I have a very similar question. Thx,


Thanks to all for the recommendations. I ordered a Lyman M die last night.
LOL, I ordered a couple first thing this morning - thx for getting me going. :-)

[tranders]

LOL, I ordered a couple first thing this morning - thx for getting me going. :-)

You are welcome. Misery loves company. :)

[Law.man]

I just ran into an interesting, but not the less annoying problem. I recently started reloading 38sp with my soft (9.5 BHN) cast .357 boolits, I use NOE expander plug of proper diameter and seat/roll crimp in separate steps. I use Lee FCD which had the carbide sizing ring machined to a larger dia so that it would not swage down my boolits.

I made a few dummy rounds and discovered that if I just seat the bullet and run it through the FCD without applying any roll crimp and then pull the boolit out, the diameter remains unaffected at .357 (i.e. no swaging).

However, if I apply decent roll crimp into the crimp groove (nothing heavy, just to start the case mouth to roll into the groove) and then pull the boolit out, the portion that was inside the case is swaged to about .354.

It seems that the crimped case mouth swages down the soft boolet as it pushes itself through the narrowed mouth and out of the case. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Seems that to maintain my boolit diameter I either have to skip roll crimping alltogether or use harder alloy.

Thing is these are nice hollow point boolits so using harder lead in 38sp. would defeat the purpose of using hollow point in the first place and since these are also used in a J frame, skipping the roll crimp does not seem like a good idea either. Any advice would be much appreciated!

[Law.man]

And one follow-up question. Does pulling the bullet out of a roll-crimped case with a bullet puller yield different results than actually firing the bullet in terms of reducing the bullet diameter? Unfortunatelly I heave no way to recover a fired bullet without it deforming upon impact, so this is rather a theoretical question.

[tazman]

The case is supposed to open up slightly when fired, theoretically allowing the boolit past the crimp without sizing it down.
Also, with a sufficiently soft alloy, which yours may well be, the boolit will obdurate and seal the bore from the pressure of firing.
You almost certainly need the crimp to maintain the OAL in the cylinder during firing. Without a crimp, the boolits in the non fired rounds can slip forward and lock up the cylinder.

[gwpercle]

What happens if :
1.) You don't use the factory crimp die.
2.) seat the boolit in one step
3.) Apply a med/light roll crimp, with the regular crimp die, in a separate step.
This method should keep any swaging down.

Exactly what boolit are you casting and when using your Lee FCD method what problems are you having...leading, accuracy?

I cast load and shoot soft 38 special, 357 magnum and 9mm luger boolits myself ...I have a few tricks for making them work. The biggest one is the gas check.
Gary

[Law.man]

If I do not apply any crimp, I get unburned powder all over the place and big spread in muzzle velocities. If I try to crimp with the seating die, I get lead and/or PC shaved off the sides of the boolit. The third option - i.e. to roll crimp lightly with another crimp die I did not try as I only have the modified FCD on hand. Of course the lighter crimp I apply, the less swaging of the bullet I get when pulling it out. But it is there.

Nevertheless, having the carbide ring on FCD enlarged, all it does is apply a roll crimp, so I am unsure whether I should buy another crimp die (like Redding profile Crimp die) as I read somewhere on this forum that the roll crimp itself is about the same with redding and Lee...but that is just heresay.

The bullet I use is Thompson 358156 HP made by MIHA. I crimp to the bottom groove, i.e. there is some bearing area sticking out of the case which does not get swaged. I have yet to test these on a range, will do some shooting probably tomorow. I just loaded a few dummies and pull them apart to make sure everything is in order and discovered this.

Before I used various designs of 9mm cast boolits like the SWC H&G 275 or MIHA's 359-153 round nose in 38 special with just light taper crimp, which did not give me any leading issues and accuracy was satisfactory (though not great due to some spread in velocities), but I was getting unburned powder probably due to lack of bullet retention in the case, which did not allow the fast powder to generate enough pressure to burn clean.

That is why I started to experiment with a proper 38 sp. boolit and roll crimp into the groove, only to discover the swaging issue.

[Landy88]

I wonder if you even have a problem, and suspect that pulling the bullets is deforming previously good bullets in good ammo.

Shoot it - measure the groups - clean the gun - let the gun, not the bullet puller tell the tale.

[Law.man]

I shot some of the bullets today with low to medium powder charges (700-830 FPS), all to the same effect. Accuracy was acceptable - palm sized groups at 25 meters, shot off hand out of my 3" Smith mod. 64. I can do a little better on a good day (2-3" is about as goot as I can get). But got a smidge of lead traces in the first half of the barrel. When I use the same powder charge under the same bullet, which has not been roll-crimped (just very slight taper crimp), I get no leading at all, but also lower FPS and more unburned powder.

So first I am gonna try to up the charge a bit to get 900-950 FPS and see, whether that makes the bullets obturate and form a better seal. If that fails, I'll stiffen the alloy a bit to say 13 BHN and see where that gets me.

[Outpost75]

Something nobody else not mentioned, but which helps when loading soft lead bullets in revolver cases is to inside deburr the case mouths of fired brass before sizing and expanding them. This breaks the sharp edge from the factory pinch-trim and gives you a smoother start of the bullet into the flared case so that less flaring is necessary. This is particularly important when using mixed headstamp range pickup brass of varying lengths, when loading on a progressive machine, such as the Dillon.

Using a bevel-based bullet also helps in machine loading.

This step only needs to be done once, but if you do this along with using either the CORRECT Lyman M die or RCBS Cowboy expander, your lead shaving problems will be over. The expander plug should be 0.002" less than bullet diameter, no more, otherwise you will deform the bullet.

If you want to load .360" bullets in the .38 Special without sizing them, you will need a .38 S&W (NOT Special) expander plug (.3575-.3580") With some .,38 Special brass loading a .360" bullet diameter results in the loaded cartridge diameter exceeding maximum, being too snug to enter the revolver chambers easily, particularly if your gun happens to be snug, or dirty from lots of shooting and improper (inadequate) cleaning of lead and carbon from the charge holes.

I recommend that every time the loading machine is set up that a dozen rounds be checked in a max. cartridge drop gage, to ensure that excessive crimp or bullet diameter does not cause a bulge either at the case mouth or adjacent the bullet base down the body of the case. IF that is the case, either the Redding Profiler or the Lee Factory Crimp Die installed at the last die station will remove the bullet bulge and size the bullet by compression inside the case.

[connortn]

Something that I don't think was mentioned is that your brass may have work hardened to the point that the crimped end will not open up efficiently when fired. If you have some new unfired brass or just anneal the neck of a few rounds to soften up the crimp a little it may help. There are several decent youtube videos on annealing if you've never done it before.