Iver Johnson .410

[Battis]

My question is not on how to reload for a .410, but is it worth it?
I have an old Iver Johnson Champion on hold for a week (not sure how old it is, but it's old). It can take 3" shells. But here's the thing - I like old guns for their history, and I like to shoot them. So where would the 410 fit in? I don't hunt so that leaves that out. I shoot trap from a step-on thrower but I'm thinking that shooting trap with a 410 would be a challenge (and probably fun). Home defense? It wouldn't be the first gun I reached for.
.410 shells cost more than .12 and .20 (I have a few of each).
So, in the overall scheme of things, is that cool old gun worth having? They're asking $160 and it's in really good shape.

[rondog]

I used to have one, it was my grandma's and the wood was painted gloss black whoknowswhen. I had to sell it years ago, but I'd sure pay $160 to get it back.

[too many things]

opinion ---- the price is high but if you look real interested it will stay there . Offer 125, next ,reloading will cost a lot to set up , best would be to check gun auction sites and you can find 410 for around $5 to 6 a box . 410 is a different reloading curve , hulls dont last unless you want to stay with a 2-1/2 load , then you can use 444 brass and load by hand .
hope you find what you want

[Reverend Al]

You can also make everlasting brass .410 hulls from .303 British cases fire-formed straight ...

http://i.imgur.com/FToT3vI.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

I don't like the .410 much, and I love my big bores. I don't even like 20 gauge, when I can have my 16 at the same weight. It can certainly be used to hunt. Grouse, rabbits, any small game really. Even pheasant, or turkey(not legal in MN), although ranges will be limited by the sparse pattern. You can kill deer with it with slugs, although for some reason it's argued about. It's like shooting a shoulder fired .41 mag or 10mm auto.

You can certainly shoot clays with it for fun. From just a regular thrower like that, it's not even much of a challenge. I've shot a bolt action .410 plenty of times for clays, and never had any problems hitting them.

[GhostHawk]

Well I started out with a .410, Mossberg bolt action, 3 shot. I cussed it a lot.
Until the day I managed to pull a really good sneak on a pair of mallards on a gravel pit pond. They were less than 30 yards, all I had was 6's. I patterned that pair of ducks perfectly 3 times. And they flew off. I mean they were swimming close together, and while I saw a few shot hit outside of them. Mostly they took the majority of it, times 3.

I got mad, went home told dad.
He got quiet. How much you got in your savings account?
Well gee dad, let me look. ehhh little over 6k. Mowing lawns mostly, some farm work.
Saved half of every dollar I earned.

Dad says " I think you can get a pretty good pump gun for around 200 to 250$. I think you've earned it. Less than a week later It was being fitted for me. Remington 870 wingmaster with nice wood, vent rib I was a late bloomer and a year out of school and I was pushing 4 feet 3 inches.

Bob Platt my lGS owner cut that stock down to fit me. Kept the piece for years in case I wanted to expoxy it back on someday.

What a difference between a .410 and a 20.
Me and that 20 became both a team, and a killing machine. We ate GOOD.
Grouse, Hungarian partridge, rabbit, squirrel, duck, goose. Yes the 20 will kill a goose. If you have the right load and the right lead.

I still have both, and yes I do reload some for the .410. I don't hunt anymore, would not with it. But, it would work well for a spouse or a middle sized serious kid.

I have fireformed some .303 british for it, and bought a few boxes of .410 magtech brass hulls. You won't find smokeless data for those btw.

Your on your own, just like the rest of us. No one wants the liability and responsibility for publishing those loads.

I made my own kit for reloading. Pretty simple stuff really. Bought the right size wads, nitro cards, punch out my own overshot cards from plastic milk jug.

And I bought a .410 mold and cast several "slug" loads for it.
In a pinch, better than a pistol is my opinion.

.410 is a challenge, but what else do we have to do?

[nagantguy]

Iver Johnson Champion .410 was my very first gun;my father traded 25 auto for it when he learned he was having a son. Lots and lots and lots of memories in that old gun! $160 does seem to be at the top of price range, but for a really nice one I'd pay that.

[Markopolo]

Sir... you buy that shotgun!!! Start running it with BP... round balls, Slugs, alll kinda fun stuff.. make you some brass shells... make some tri-ball loads.. experiment... have some fun... drill the stock and turn it into an awesome survival gun!! The options are endless for someone with a bit of imagination!

[richhodg66]

My uncle died a few years ago and one of those Iver Johnson Champions turned up in his stuff my Dad and everybody else couldn't remember ever seeing before. Uncle wasn't really a gun enthusiast though he had a few working guns. Anyway, nobody else wanted it, and I had the itch to have a rook rifle built so I took it. Still haven't shot it yet and have decided I can get a better platform for the Rook rifle. I have some .410 shells and plan to eventually reload brass shells for it. I think .410 is probably the only gauge really worth loading for it since it's specialty ammo.

[Battis]

Good replies for both sides of the .410. It's relatively cheap, in good shape - I might refinish the wood. I do have a .410 sleeve for an old 20 ga New England Pardner that I shoot at the berm once in awhile. I also have a black powder caplock 10 ga British muzzleloading side by side shotgun that is probably even more useless but a lot of fun.
Black powder loads for the .410? Interesting, as is the brass .303 hulls.
I'm glad I asked. The store holds it for a week at no cost - I'll check it out again.

[beemer]

It's hard to find a H & R for that price around here. I keep a H & R .410 behind the door, it's fitted with a sling and an ammo sleeve on the stock. It's one of the best pesky critter getters I have.

Reloading can be a pain and probably really not worth it but I do it anyway, it's a hobby and doesn't need to make sense. If I bought shells with what I have spent I would never shoot them up.

Brass cases would be the easiest way to go. You can do anything from very light snake loads with fine shot to a load of 2-3 .395 balls.

Dave

[Markopolo]

Please let us know what you decide!!!! You would spend more then that on a day out or a dinner at a nice restaurant with the family.. but the 410 will last for a lot longer then a good meal... a single shot 410 the barrel comes right off and into the sink for a bit of dawn and hot water... instant muzzleloader... quick to clean, and fun to experiment with.. chop the choke off if you wanna really have some fun and get a 41cal wad cutter mold.. Now that is having a good time...

Marko

[codgerville@zianet.com]

Iver Johnson Champion .410 was my very first gun;my father traded 25 auto for it when he learned he was having a son. Lots and lots and lots of memories in that old gun! $160 does seem to be at the top of price range, but for a really nice one I'd pay that.

My first gun was an Iver Johnson Champion 410 my Grandad gave me in about 1948 and it brought home many rabbits and squirrels.

[Battis]

I have a New England Pardner 20 ga single shot that is just about the worst gun I ever shot. It kicks way out of proportion to what it should. I'm going to see what they'll give me in trade towards that .410. Probably about $50 which is what I paid for it.

[izzyjoe]

I have a New England Pardner 20 ga single shot that is just about the worst gun I ever shot. It kicks way out of proportion to what it should. I'm going to see what they'll give me in trade towards that .410. Probably about $50 which is what I paid for it.i know what you mean there, those light little 20's kick like the devil, especially with a heavy turkey load or slug! 410's are my favorite, I've dabbled with reloading for them but not much. Most people underestimate the 410 cause of it small stature, but I can attest they will kill a deer dead in it's tracks. I remember stories from old timers from the Deppression, and a lot of them feed there families with the lowly little 410.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Anything will kill anything dead in its tracks once in a while, and I wouldn't consider the .410 slug acceptable for anything much over fox size. The people who use pistols for deer mostly do so from a desire to accept as a challenge the limitations of a pistol. But deliberately accepting the limitations of a .410 seems pretty questionable.

I don't even consider it much of a bird gun. Birds just keep on flying, but in thick brush a rabbit can appear at your feet and be safe at ten or fifteen yards. That is the situation where the lightness and speed of a .410 comes into its own, when the rabbit will be either missed or messy with something larger.

The one-time gospel that you get better patterns with a larger calibre than a longer cartridge isn't quite as true as it used to be. Shot-cup wads and steel shot have made quite a difference. But there is still truth in it, and especially with the 3in. .410 as compared with a light 28 or 20. For me the best .410 is the 2½in. within its limits.

I also like the very light Belgian .410s, which used to be sold in such numbers, usually with no maker's name. There is a good current thread on these. With a low pressure but easily available cartridge, such as the .32 S&W Long, they are a good basis for a rook rifle the way rook rifles used to be.

[richhodg66]

I have a New England Pardner 20 ga single shot that is just about the worst gun I ever shot. It kicks way out of proportion to what it should. I'm going to see what they'll give me in trade towards that .410. Probably about $50 which is what I paid for it.

Kind of funny you come to that conclusion about it. I have kind of reached the conclusion that a break open 20 gauge single is about the most versatile gun a guy can have. I started with a H&R Topper when I was 14 or so and still have it. Used a little Savage 220 this past Fall for Squirrels and was messing with .60 caliber round balls in a couple of different ones and based on the conditions and methods I hunt, I'd have no problems killing a deer with one. Simple, cheap and effective, Easy carrying and come up and point quicker than any other kind. I never found the recoil from one objectionable, but I only shoot 2 3/4 inch shells and don't put hundreds of rounds in a session through one.

[Markopolo]

I shoot a couple of different 12g singles as well as the several 410 singles I have... they all are pretty awesome, but the CBE 12g single does kick a harder with full house loads cuz it's lighter and has no butt buffer. I have another one that I turned into a smooth bore slugger, and I drilled a couple of holes in the stock and added a couple lbs of lead, and gave it a decent butt pad... that did the trick... the lighter the gun, the sharper the recoil in my experience. It is especially noticeable when you try out them ultra light guns and pistol's.. I tried one of them titanium 44 mags once with a normal to me warm load and thought I was gunna break my wrist. I only shot it once....

Marko

[Battis]

The 20 ga New England Pardner is all business. I got it as a home defense gun - the 1st shotgun I ever bought. Short barrel, lightweight, it's actually good for home defense. I don't hunt, but if I did, I agree that it'd be a good gun to lug around. But it kicks. If I had to use it in a defense situation, I'd probably preface the shot with, "This might hurt me more than it hurts you."

[Outpost75]

My question is not on how to reload for a .410, but is it worth it?
I have an old Iver Johnson Champion on hold for a week (not sure how old it is, but it's old). It can take 3" shells. But here's the thing - I like old guns for their history, and I like to shoot them. So where would the 410 fit in? I don't hunt so that leaves that out. I shoot trap from a step-on thrower but I'm thinking that shooting trap with a 410 would be a challenge (and probably fun). Home defense? It wouldn't be the first gun I reached for.
.410 shells cost more than .12 and .20 (I have a few of each).
So, in the overall scheme of things, is that cool old gun worth having? They're asking $160 and it's in really good shape.

If you don't hunt, I don't see the point in the .410. It IS a subsistence hunter's gun, not for clay birds or target shooting.

What else could you do with $160 burning a hole in your pocket? You could get a useful quantity of .22 LR ammo for that.

But don't get me wrong, I love my .410, as a gentleman's walking companion and small game and garden gun.

Truckloads of small game have gone into the pot. THAT's what its for...

[Battis]

If you don't hunt, I don't see the point in the .410.
Exactly what my son said. Exactly what I've been thinking. Then again, I have a .50-70, and all the dinosaurs are gone.
I have a Winchester Self Loader .32, which has been called "the most useless cartridge invented - too big for small game, too small for big game." But it is a cool gun.

[RGrosz]

opinion ---- the price is high but if you look real interested it will stay there . Offer 125, next ,reloading will cost a lot to set up , best would be to check gun auction sites and you can find 410 for around $5 to 6 a box . 410 is a different reloading curve , hulls dont last unless you want to stay with a 2-1/2 load , then you can use 444 brass and load by hand .
hope you find what you want
Have you priced some 410 shells lately?? They are pricely. My first official gun was Grandpa's bolt 410./ I could use it whenever I wanted. It was a bolt action with a magazine that held 2 other shells. It was only a 2 1/2 icher. Got a few ribbits and a lot of squrrils. It had a tendancy to break the bolt then you had to take it to a gunsmith to get it braised back together. Finley he told grandpa and me that there wasn't enough left to do it again so that was the last time he could fix it. I sold it to a cousin on the other side of the family and got a Ted Williams 20 gage pump form Sears. Couldn't hit rabbits near as well, but could get pheasants, quail, and huns.
By the way the hardest gun I ever shot was a single shot 20 that my buddy had It was light and about 3 - 4" too short. Got beat every time I pulled the bang switch.

[beemer]

I have 12's and .410's, nothing in between and at this point probably will not. Looking back on what I have used a shotgun for I would have been served very well with a 20 ga. shotgun or three. That is from a practical point of view.

This ceased to be practical years ago, who on earth needs to load for as many calibers as some of us on this forum. I quit trying to justify it years ago, I want to play with a new caliber or old gun I will if I can.

Have fun!
Dave

[Texas by God]

A .410 slug is 90 grains @ 1600 for. Make of that what you will. When dove are storming a water hole; a .410 is sweet to have along. Currently we have a 18" Rossi single and a beautiful old Topper 26" full choke with factory walnut stocks. They are mostly used for yard work (pests) but that H&R is squirrel King when the trees are leaded out.

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[Texas by God]

When the trees have leaves lol.

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[6pt-sika]

Let's see I've got an Iver Johnson Hercules SxS 410 for about 40 years . Works very nicely for Dove , skeet and quail . Had a little German guild O/U 410 almost as long , it isn't a bad little gun . Two years ago I picked a new in the Case Browning Superposed 410 circa 1970 26 1/2" skeet and skeet . Shot some nice rounds with it . I've probably loaded 20,000 410's on the old Ponsness Warren 800C I had . At the moment my 410 loader is a MEC 600JR which will be upgraded to a MaeC 9000 if a decentbused one surfaces . I like a 410 , I love a 28 , I like a 20 , I love a 16 , I like a 12 and I most certainly love a 2 7/8" 10 . And yes I have at least one of each gauge .

[Drm50]

While not a big fan of the 410, if that IJ is in nice shape I would buy it in a hart beat. The older SS
shotguns of IJ, H&R, Stevens are quality guns. The singles of later manufacture by these same
companies are junk, along with NEF, Rossi, ect. You can't be hurt at $160, in a face to face I
would by it just to flip. 410s are nice to have just for fun guns. My wife killed her first 7 deer with
a Savage 24 with scope. That and a old Bay State are the only 410s I own. With all the HD 410s
pushed you would think some one would bring out a set of dies for rifle press at a reasonable
price. The only downside to them is ammo price.

[Battis]

I went back to the store and looked at it. It's a well made, heavy shotgun, but I passed - for now anyways. I have the single shot New England Pardner 20 ga with a .410 sleeve ($20 for the sleeve).
If I don't buy a gun that I put on hold within a day or two, I usually pass on it.

[crandall crank]

It is definitely worth reloading. I bought one and with two kids shooting "backyard skeet", it paid for itself in less than one summer. The factory loaded shells cost the same or more than 12 gauge shells and have only a fraction of the lead. The primer and wad costs are virtually the same, no matter what gauge is loaded. Powder costs are less, but that depends on powder type and type of powder.

I single stage MEC will load all you need. Plus a single stage is easier to use for the powder drop into the "tiny" hulls.

[gunarea]

Hey Battis
Your original question of "is it worth it?" simply brings the qualifier, what do you want? If shooting a 410 is desirable, it is most definitely worth it. When entering the world of small bore shotguns, nothing is fair. Prices of factory ammo eliminate all but the most foolish or wealthy. Scattergun limitations apply much more harshly in nearly all applications. Even though 410 users are almost a cult, they do not enjoy popularity. My love of the 410 goes back over 55 years and I have reloaded 410s for 45 of them. Starting off with a MEC 650, it served me for almost 30 years. Now a MEC sizemaster takes care of my little gems.
202849
On the left side of the press is a box of Remington 3" shells cut down to 2 1/2" loaded with #5 ish home made shot. We get possum, armadillo, coyote and raccoon along with a healthy smattering of assorted ferrel. Those on the right in a 44 mag case box are 2" specials. There are examples of slugs and tri-ball as well. All my 410 shells come off the single press. After loading tens of thousands 410, it has been worth it.
For lite varmit duty around home and informal close trap as you described, 2" shells. Even the kids who are just big enough to handle grandpa's gun, don't mind the mild kick. Step up a notch and 2 1/2" loading comes off the same machine but at a much higher production rate. The MEC sizemaster, as most MECs do, will also load 3" shells for that extra whump something might be needing. Slugs and punkin balls can be done with traditional fold crimp or buy a roll crimper. Yeah I have and load for other gauges. For some applications the 410 is not the logical choice, don't use it. As a challenge to skill in shooting and loading, the 410 is tits in my book. Good skill to you.
Roy

[Blanket]

I like 410's have several, load for them, and shoot them every week. Have all the other size bores as well. Used to be invited to a corporate game farm every year to help guide the "shooters", killed a bunch of stocked pheasants with my 11-48 skeet

[Battis]

I passed on the Iver Johnson but I got a Mossberg 183D-A bolt action. I won a door prize of $35, the gun was $95, so it cost me $60. Nice little gun.

[KenT7021]

For a challenging target with the .410 get a Ritz Rocket.It's now sold as the cracker thrower by Sporting Clays.They can throw a Ritz cracker a considerable distance.

[lightload]

Not a 410 but today I walked in my lgs and saw a Iver Johnson Champion 12 ga with a 36 inch barrel. It was made between 1940 and 1950 and is in 98% condition, wood and metal. Case color is bright. No wood dings and no rust. Stock is uncut. This gun must have been bought new and not used at all down through the years. I paid $135 out the door. I'm proud to own the old gun and though I will shoot it and may hunt with it, this Champion will be treated like a king.

[Pressman]

Old thread but good. I found an Iver Johnson 410 in dad's stuff 2 years ago that he picked up at some auction somewhere. It's far from perfect and I have always been wondering about it.
After reading this I will keep it, just because.
Ken

[lightload]

Research showed that letters and not numbers were were used in place of serial numbers between 1940 and 1956. Mine falls within this interval. No data maintained to show year of production. If my gun is representative, they were meticulously well made. I'm not young, and will make certain that the next owner will care for this shotgun even if I have to give it to him.

[rking22]

I have an Ivers and Johnson 20ga sxs made in the mid 30s. If it is indicative of the IJ build quality then the Champion is top notch!
I bought the gun in fairly sad cosmetic shape. I soaked the oil from the wood and refinished. The real eyeopener was when I disassembled the frame to clean up the pitting and rust blue it. The parts inside were hand fit, it showed more care and quality than several Beretta ou guns I have been inside! Everything was stoned to a polish where ever it interacted with another part, and everything was heat treated, no visable wear to the lock parts. Pretty awesome for a " hardwear store gun " !
I'm on the hunt for a little skeeter or herc in 410, now I think a Champion has neen added to the want list!

[jdfoxinc]

Its aling the same line as my snake charmer. I pare it with my 3" judge. I'm presently loading compression formed Winchester hulls with 15.4 gr 2400 and 1 000 over 4 00 in a 2 1/2" AA wad

[rbuck351]

I have a Savage 24 in 410/22 and consider it to be about the best grouse gun there is. The 22 with shorts for sitting birds and 3/4 oz of #9s loaded in a 444 case drops them nicely. I also recently bought a single shot Hatfield 410 at Walmart for $99. It isn't built as solid as the old guns but it looks like it will hold up fairly well. It has a 28" vented rib barrel, 3" chamber and folds up to barrel length. I haven't shot it much but so far happy with it

[rking22]

That reminds me, all you fellow 410 addicts should take a look at the Yildiz tk36. Its a folding 410 with a 28 inch mod choke plain barrel and beautiful wood. For 130$ new!!! It weighs 3.3 lbs, and shoots very well. I like singles and have HR and a Stevens 94 in 28ga as well, but the little Yildiz is a favorite. Even got one that shoots 32SWL.

[jimb16]

I've got a Rossi SxS choked full and full. You guys need to learn how to shoot! I hit 17/18 at skeet with it. I use it for squirrel and rabbit. I love that gun. #9 for clay birds and #6 for hunting. Always use 2 1/2 inch hulls. Load to 1250 fps. It does the job as long as I do mine. OK, I do shoot better with a 12 gauge, but the .410 is no slouch either. It is NOT a beginner's gun.