PC coated cast boolits velocity

[thumbs]

How fast can a powder coated boolit be pushed? Not gas checked just powder coated. I would like to work up a load for hunting but would rather not gas check if possible. Just an expense thing and I don't have any gc molds.

thanks

[Scharfschuetze]

That will depend on a couple of different factors.

What bullet in what kind of firearm with what rifling twist in what calibre?

[thumbs]

240gr Lee mold truncated cone wheel weights. 1894 Marlin .44 mag Ballard rifling. I believe it's 1:38 twist.

[Bzcraig]

You can push that bullet as hard as you want in that rifle.

[Smoke4320]

I am confident that with right alloy, a good fitting bullet and properly pc'ed bullet you can
find a load at 1600-1700 fps

[thumbs]

Ok now remember these will be just powder coated not gas checked. I have never had any problems with pc bullets but I have never recovered one. Im just going by the looks of the barrel. No signs of gas cutting. Read an article, true or false, that pc eliminates the need for gas checks. Never pushed my cast boolits fast enough to see. I guess I'll be finding out.
thanks

[Larry Gibson]

I guess I'll be finding out

That's the correct answer as you can push them as "fast" as safe loads will permit. The real question is; what kind of accuracy are you willing to accept?

Now I have to ask; you want to work up a load for hunting....correct? If so then how many bullets do you use a year "hunting"?

Many years ago I bought a 429244 GC mould and a box of 1,000 Hornady GCs to use for hunting. I developed the load and got in a bit of range practice with it out to 100 yards (max range for me with a revolver). Still had 2/3s of those GCs left. They lasted a long time, several years actually, since I used a PB'd Keith bullet for most of my "shooting". I got a M94 carbine and used quite a few of those GCs on the 429244. Then I got the 429640HP Devastator and another box of Hornady GCs but still had a hundred or so of the original box left. Done a lot of shooting/testing, mostly testing, of the Devastator over the last few years and just finished off that 2nd box a few months back and go another box.

I've shot a lot of PC'd bullets testing them (rifle and handgun, GC'd and PB) and frankly see no "improvement" in accuracy or anything else over regular lubed bullets GC'd or not. Actually the GC'd lubed cast bullet is still the best performer for accuracy, non fouling and terminal performance on game. Maybe someday that will change(?) but so far I've not seen it. So how much does a GC'd mould and 1,000 GCs cost compared to PC?

Anyway the point I'm making is; for "hunting" 1,000 GCs will last a long, long time, probably numerous years if just used for "hunting".....the GC'd lubed bullet cast soft will give the best accuracy you'll get out of your rifle with a cast bullet........ and will give superior terminal results. So is $30 +/- really that much of an expense to get the best out of your rifle?

[thumbs]

Yep your right. I would like to be accurate but as much energy as possible. Kinda a trade off. It really makes no sense to spend tons on setting up for hunting bullets. I know most of my stuff shoots better than store bought ammo. I guess thats the point right. Anyway again the idea is if I can push them to 1600fps then 1300 should be no problem. Now I'm about 1050fps just plinking rounds. Fun rounds to shoot. Good accuracy but I just would like a little more power for hogs and deer. Accuracy is always #1. If you can place it right what I am shooting now is enough.
Just wanted to be safe no matter where I ended up velocity wise. I have a couple of loads I want to try in the 1300fps range. Just didn't want to over push the PC.

[sawinredneck]

Now, thumbs, I'd like you to keep things in perspective here, you sound a bit like me. If I shot a 1 1/2" group, I've had a banner day, even with just three shots.
Now Larry on the other hand, if he shoots an 11/2" group with ten shots, he's pissed and trying to figure out why he had a flyer! Most of these guys attain a level I can only dream of!
Not trying to baxmouth anyone, just keeping things in perspective.

[popper]

Should be able to get full jacketed fps. I push a 145gr with H110 to 2100 in BO, 30/30 180gr RD to ~1800. Both PCd and PB. It will depend on alloy & fit. I'm not a very good lever gun shooter but this was @ 50 may years ago when i first started PC. Didn't chrony that load but 15gr gives 1750 in the 30/30. 17 should be 1900? PC is not the limiting factor, boolit fit and alloy are.
200830

[Larry Gibson]

Now sawinredneck, I too keep things in perspective. Let's just take the 44 Magnum in a rifle for instance....A Rossi M92 rifle with 24" barrel in this instance. Some time last year a local guy called me and asked what top end magnum load I recommended with the Lee C429-240-SWC cast of COWWs + 2% tin. I recommended 22 gr A2400 or 23 gr H110. Called me back a few days later and said that was the worst load he'd ever shot. I queried as to the load specifics. He used 23 gr H110, WLP primers in R-P cases. I asked if he was using Hornady GCs. Said he didn't need to as he was PCing them. I told him to bring some over along with his cases and the rifle.

His bullets were a very pretty green color and looked good. He had sized them at .432". I sized 10 at .430", lubed with BAC and put Hornady GCs on them. Loaded another 10 just as he had. We then slipped off to the range (it's only 10 minutes away). He shot the 10 w/o GCs and lube at 100 yards ....barely held minute of 5 gallon bucket.....he was not impressed nor was I....! Then we cleaned the barrel and got the fouling out, no leading but you could feel the fouling with the 1st wet patch pushed through. Then he shot the 10 that I had GC'd, lubed and size at .430". They went into 5" overall with 8 of the 10 being in right at 3". He was elated as that was the best he'd ever shot with that rifle using the factory sights. I thought it was pretty good also given the sights......

Ran into him at the range a few weeks back......he said he gave up on PCing for his top end loads. He still uses it for his blastin ammo though.........

[thumbs]

Ha thanks guys. Yeah I'm not happy until I get what I think is the best I can do. Shooting from the bench and at game in the bush are two entirely different things. I just want to get a load I can believe in and feel comfortable with. Heck to tell the truth not even sure what I should be happy with at 50yds with the .44 1894.

[runfiverun]

you'll be fine.
you don't need powder coating nor a gas check to do what you want.
don't over think it.

[lotech]

Is there any general accuracy advantage to powder coated bullets over conventionally sized and lubricated bullets? I have no experience with the powder coating process.

[JasonYbarbo]

I would say load a few and see what happens.

[popper]

lotech - I haven't found any. But I can only compare T/L with coating. I am finding that PC for softer alloy works where T/L without GC doesn't. I mean like nearly pure Pb. Seems the T/L can't survive the gas cutting as well as PC.
Reminds me of an experiment, IIRC Gearnasher, glued some paper punch dots on the base which worked at moderate fps. Hmm, just dip the base in HiTek, cook and BLL?

[thumbs]

lotec

I too can not say about the accuracy. I'm not a competition bench rest shooter. My problem was leading. I could not get lead bullets to shoot and not lead the barrel. I went to PC and it stopped the leading. The loads are pretty accurate although I don't have any data using lead or pc bullets to compare to. I do know they are more accurate in my firearms than factory.

[thumbs]

Popper

Thanks. I was considering going gc pullets. Funny I get close to your accuracy with my .44 but I am getting flyers. I just started playing with these loads so it very well may be barrel heating. I just didn't know if you can push these to hunting velocities. I started with plinking loads. Gonna up the game soon and see what happens. I'm using wheel weights

[runfiverun]

you don't need a ton of velocity to hunt with.
I don't use my 2400 or H-110 loads for hunting.
9.3grs of unique is more than plenty to make holes in a 2-250 lb deer.
you also don't need 300gr bullets.
you just need to have a deer come within 100 yds of where you happen to be standing/sitting at the time.

[Larry Gibson]

"9.3grs of unique is more than plenty to make holes in a 2-250 lb deer.
you also don't need 300gr bullets."

2nd post you could get burned at the stake for.....heresy.....to many.....

I always figured the deer I killed with 7.5 gr under a 429421 (Skeeter's 44 SPL load) before the internet just died from ignorance........again, another post well put runfiverun.

[thumbs]

The question is how about hog? They are kinda tough but not sure what kinda energy is enough. Probably the same as deer.

[Gohon]

the GC'd lubed bullet cast soft will give the best accuracy you'll get out of your rifle with a cast bullet........ and will give superior terminal results.

Doesn't that statement really only apply to your gun and loads?

201027

The above targets were shot at 50 yards. The top target is powder coated and the bottom target is with normal lube. a 270 grain plain base bullet with same cases, same powder, same time shot. That's 5 shots in each target. For this test the powder coated bullet came out the winner for accuracy and velocity.

[popper]

Thumbs, friend uses 115 jacketed from his shield, but has decided to go back to 40sw as it takes a couple from the 9. Said he has hit a couple big ones but can't put them down. Anything that will work for deer will work on hog.

[thumbs]

Thanks. Yeah never hunted hogs before but trying to get a handle on it. On my bucket list runnin out of time. LOL Some say they are pretty tough and you need a bit of horse power to get through the heavy bone. Iodono I figure a good load in a .44mag rifle hitting in the right place should do the job. I hope. To old to run em down.

[mdi]

I used PCed bullets in my Mosin 7.62x54r and loaded them to lower jacketed levels. Shot fine. Barrel slugged .313". Sized bullets, post PC, to .314". Guestimate of 2200-2300 fps...

[Smoke4320]

for hogs and a pistol especially just remember no shoulder shots. hit em head , neck or just in front of the shoulder
on boars the shoulder is well protected and usually takes multiple shots in that area

[Larry Gibson]

Doesn't that statement really only apply to your gun and loads?

201027

The above targets were shot at 50 yards. The top target is powder coated and the bottom target is with normal lube. a 270 grain plain base bullet with same cases, same powder, same time shot. That's 5 shots in each target. For this test the powder coated bullet came out the winner for accuracy and velocity.

Gohon

Certainly fine accuracy at 50 yards with a PB'd PC'd cast bullet at a velocity of 1450 fps. If the same load with the same sight setting was used for both groups it appears the 10 shot group is 1.5"+ at 50 yards. Still ok for 50 yards.

However, if you go back and read the OP's question he asked "how fast" (not where the best accuracy was) a PC'd GC'd cast bullet sans the GC can be shot. I don't think you'd argue that your PC'd cast bullet can be shot much faster out of your H&R rifle. Perhaps you could show us some groups shot at the max safe velocity?

I answered the OP's question as it "really related" to his firearm and bullet and the OPs quest for "how fast".

[popper]

201049
As you can see, that bone plate at the shoulder is covered with a wide muscle bundle. However, where the leg appears to attach is a good shot, heart & lung plus possibly breaking the leg to slow them down. Spine in front of the real shoulder blade is good but a small area, called the 'behind the ear' shot. Just behind the front leg takes out the lungs and you get to chase/find them. Same with 'texas heart shot'. Anything farther back and it's a waste of ammo.

[Traffer]

Keep er under 3000fps. At that speed you may experience problems.

[Gohon]

If the same load with the same sight setting was used for both groups it appears the 10 shot group is 1.5"+ at 50 yards.

Well...it's not a ten shot group but two five shot groups. Though the same powder charge was used and same cases with the same rifle with same sights...the bullets themselves were not the same. One was lubed and the other was powder coated. Even if you were to overlay those targets the 8 shot group would still be less than one inch. That particular gun heats up fast with these loads and will throw the fifth shot slightly right out of the group every time. Just the nature of the gun. As for speed, 1467 fps gives the OP some numbers to consider. I've run this same coated bullet up to just shy of 1700 fps with good accuracy and no barrel leading but it is a punishing load to shoot at the bench so I backed it down.

I'm not the one that brought up accuracy...you did. However the OP is going to have to contend with accuracy in the end regardless of speed generated.

Nevertheless as I said, your comments really just apply to your gun just as mine only apply to my gun though I should say guns as I get the same results from my 1894 45 Colt. Bottom line is the OP will just have to test and see what he and his guns prefer and then make a choice.

[Larry Gibson]

As you wish......I was referring to the entire 5 shot groups.

However, again, your results are with a PB'd bullet and the OP is using a GC'd bullet w/o the GC. Also, was not my rifle I referred to in the previous post. I have on the other hand had enough similar results with GC'd bullets used w/o the GCs in a multitude of guns over the years that HV for the cartridge and bullet is better served with the use of a GC.

"However the OP is going to have to contend with accuracy in the end regardless of speed generated."

With that we definitely agree as it was my point and the point of other posters. If the OP wants to push to the "how fast" then he will be best served using the GC whether he lubes or PCs the bullets or both.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a question has anyone thought of using a Gas Check on a Powder Coated Boolit? DUH. It never occurred to me to not install a gas check on a PC'd Boolit.

I think a lot of people miss the real advantages of using a PC'd Boolit.

1. They eliminate leading for people who have that problem.

2. They eliminate lube, and especially the effects of your ammo getting hot and the lube melting into the powder. (I had this happen a few weeks ago and stuck a boolit in the barrel. Luckily I figured it out! and no I didn't leave the box in the sun, it was just 100+ here that day.)

3.Cleaning has been nothing more than one clean patch thru the bore to clean out the powder fouling from the last shot.

4. Bumping the OD of an undersized boolit up. Everyone has a mould that drops small and this is one of the best fixes for that I've found.

Accuracy and Velocities have been similar in all my loads. (.44 Spec and Mag Revolver and Rifle. .45 ACP and .45-70.) But the cleanliness factor is main advantage for me.

I plan on PCing all my other Pistol Boolits too (.40 S&W, Makarov, as well as .30 and .31 cal. rifle boolits.)

It cost me about $100 to get setup to do this using an Eastwood's gun, and a defunct Toaster Oven my Wife abandoned.

For me, making good looking ammo that shoots to an acceptable level is where I'm at with my High Volume ammo like .40 S&W and .45 ACP. If these rounds will stay in a 1" square at 5 yards they are good to go for the type of shooting I do with those rounds. These rounds cost me .06-.07 ea. to produce, not counting my time to make the boolits. They also may sit in the box for years until I get around to shooting them and Lube does melt. I make them in runs of 1000 or more, not 50 or so at a time. They are all fired in Glocks so pinpoint accuracy is not happening.

Point here is that,,, where as PC'ing makes nice looking loads that work fine for me, my considerations might not mean anything to you. The actual shooting results should be similar with the edge going either way.

That kind of means you should do your own testing and decide,,, based on your results what you want to proceed with.

I would however recommend that you actually put gas checks on any boolits that are designed for them whether they are PC'd or Lubed.

Here's the deal: When the round is fired, the gas pressure on a PB boolit is seen by the entire base of the boolit. This usually results in a decent seal. However with a small step on the base it just invites the gas going up the sides of the boolits and results in an inferior gas seal which causes problems. This isn't good.

YMMV?

Randy

201242

[bpatterson84]

GC designs need a check in my experience. Tried some lee 440gr powdercoated boolits checked and unchecked. If doing slow loads(under 900fps) the check doesnt matter, still very accurate, but when you get any velocity, you better have a copper cup if you want any accuracy.