.22TCM in a Broomhandle?

[Gazz]

Years ago I bought a fairly rough Mauser Bolo Broomhandle because I thought it looked cool. The bore is completely shot out and exterior retained less then 0% original finish and was pitted here and there. All the parts matched though, even the grips and while it would shoot, I had no idea where the bullets were going except down range. So, I took it all part and starting welding up some of the bad pits and adding metal where it had worn away, like at the muzzle and the grip frame where it had corroded away. I have cleaned up all the welds and bead blasted it and it is starting to look good. Next will be a rust blue and some new grips, perhaps made of bone. Originally my plan was to send out to have the barrel lined for .30 Mauser but sometime last year I read about the .22 TCM and wondered if that cartridge would work in the pistol but it was just a thought. Then comes the most recent issue of the American Rifleman with an article on the cartridge and guns for it which got me thinking again. The parent brass for the TCM is .223 which is also used to make .30 Mauser so it seems that it would fit just fine in the magazine and be able to be extracted just fine. I'm also thinking that if the cartridge is fine for use in a 1911 type pistol, it should be okay for the Mauser. Then I struggle with converting such a classic pistol to such a not so classic cartridge. Is it blasphemy? I may have a piece of .22cf barrel in my pile that I could make a liner with (also have .30cal barrels) and since the liners get glued in, it's not a permanent modification. So I think I'm talking myself into it. Does anybody here have any thoughts on why I shouldn't do this?

[lefty o]

just my opinion, nothing based on factual evidence, but i dont think the broomhandle will take the pressure or velocity the tcm is going to generate.

[HATCH]

Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
5.6 g (86 gr) FMJ 441 m/s (1,450 ft/s) 545 J (402 ft·lbf)

Ballistic performance
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
40 gr (3 g) Pointed flat nose 2070 380

Bullet weighs 1/2 as much.
Velocity isn't much faster.

The recoil spring on a 1911 is like a 22lr for the 22txm.

[lefty o]

i was thinking of slide velocity due to pressure, not so much the bullets velocity.

[Texas by God]

I wouldn't. Reline to .30 Mauser and load it with cast starting loads. Yes; sacrelige! Blasphemy!

[Blanket]

It won't work worth a ****. The 1911's in that caliber don't work that well and boolits are non existing

[HATCH]

It won't work worth a ****. The 1911's in that caliber don't work that well and boolits are non existing

That's funny, mine and five others that are in my family work like a champ.

I can hold the 1911 slide with my hand and shoot it.
It will not cycle. The TCM has no recoil in the 1911.

Boolits as in cast??
I have a RCBS mold that is for a hornet that works great.
You can buy brass now.
Most once fired brass dealers on CB have it at a reasonable price too.

[matrixcs]

I wouldn't. Reline to .30 Mauser and load it with cast starting loads. Yes; sacrelige! Blasphemy!

Sacrilege maybe but the looks on the faces of the other folks at the range when you shoot would be priceless....

It is always fun when my 22tcm shows up and smiles all around....

[17nut]

Recoil is momentum.

A 86gr bullet at 1450fps generates 17.81ftlb
A 40gr bullet at 2070fps generates 11.82ftlb.

So recoil spring needs to be 1/3 lighter to function.

I think it's avery neat project and if i had half a chance i would be over it like a pack of hounds on a three legged cat!

[Handloader109]

Also cast for it with a 37gr .223 shoots well with h110, can make your own brass, but factory is much better. Oh, plain brass is available......

[Hardcast416taylor]

I wouldn't. Reline to .30 Mauser and load it with cast starting loads. Yes; sacrelige! Blasphemy!

My old bolo model in .30 Mauser is pretty well shot out to the point of taking bets on where the fired bullet will land. Who still does barrel reboring on broomhandles?Robert

[lar45]

I think it sounds like a great idea. If the gun is not in collector condition and the barrel is shot, then why not enjoy it in a caliber that you want. Like you said, the liner is glued in, so it can always be taken out later.

[Gazz]

Redmans still does Broomhandle relines.
As far as chamber pressure goes, who knows what it is and how does it compare with the .30 Mauser? The Mauser cartridge is no slouch in any case.

[lar45]

From Quickload
I think the 7.62x25 is listed at 34k. The 22TCM is at 38k
Looks like the 30 Luger is listed at 28kcup. My error, should have checked more than one reference.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[Texas by God]

I would call Redmans. They've been around a broom handle or two thousand. I think they can reline for .30 Mauser or rebore to 9mm Luger. I think the TCM is cool and would like to try it- Sarco has a neat looking bolt action rifle .22 TCM. It may work perfectly in a converted C96 but it may not. My .02 is all.

[Gazz]

Just looked at the AR magazine article again and they state the .22TCM pressure to be around 40,000p.s.i. and compare it to the M.A.P. (?) of the 9mm Luger +P at 38,500p.s.i., .38 Super +P at 36,500p.s.i. and 10mm Auto at 37,500p.s.i. I would believe that the pressure of the 7.62X25 Tokarev round is higher than that of the Mauser round since most recommend that it not be used in a Broomhandle. I need to find definitive data that shows the pressure of the .30 Mauser round.

[lar45]

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

SAAMI Pistol Pressure Specifications (Maximum Average pressure)
All Piezo measurements unless specified)

Cartridge Pressure (Max Avg) Cartridge Pressure (Max Avg)
.221 Rem Fireball 52,000 cup .38 Colt 12,000 cup
.22 Jet 40,000 cup .357 Magnum 35,000
.25 ACP 25,000 cup .357 Maximum 40,000
.30 Luger 28,000 cup .40 S&W 35,000
.32 ACP 20,500 10 mm 37,500
.32 S&W Long 15,000 .41 AE 35,000
.32 H&R Mag 21,000 cup .41 Magnum 36,000
.380 ACP 21,500 .44 Special 15,500
9 mm Luger 35,000 .44-40 13,000 cup
9.mm Luger +P 38,500 .44 Magnum 36,000
9 mm Win Mag 45,000 cup .45 Auto Rim 15,000 cup
.38 Auto 26,500 .45 ACP 21,000
.38 S&W 14,500 .45 ACP +P 23,000
.38 Special 17,000 .45 Colt 14,000
.38 Special +P 18,500 .45 Colt (Ruger) 25,000 cup
.38-40 14,000 cup .45 Win Mag 40,000 cup
.38 Super +P 36,500 .454 Casull 50,000 cup
.38 S&W 13,000 cup .50 AE 35,000

[17nut]

Lets part beard and snot!

.30 Luger as you call it is in fact called the 7.65x21 Parabellum in it's homeland.
The .30 Mauser is called the 7.63x25
There is a world of difference between the two and the Parabellum is way to short for the Mauser.

200747
200748

[Gazz]

Today I compared the .22TCM, 9mm Luger and a 7.62X25 round for overall length. The .22TCM falls about midway so I do not think the size would be an issue. I do think the 30 Luger would work okay too since there are Broomhandle's in 9mm chambering that work fine as both cartridges do in P08 pistols. I am not interested in that cartridge though but perhaps somebody needed clarification.

[charlie b]

Were the 9mm broomhandles made differently? I know the broomhandle folks warn not to use the Tokarev round due to excessive chamber pressure, but, if it is the same pressure or less than 9mm I wonder why? Does it just need a stronger recoil spring?

I know my broomhandle is VERY picky about loads. It likes factory pressures as a minimum or it won't cycle.

The 22TCM may be too high a pressure?

If it were me? I'd either reline for the mauser or go to a 9mm. The mauser round is very accurate when the barrel is good and is cheap to reload. I just buy factory ammo and then reload the fired brass.

[17nut]

Were the 9mm broomhandles made differently? I know the broomhandle folks warn not to use the Tokarev round due to excessive chamber pressure, but, if it is the same pressure or less than 9mm I wonder why? Does it just need a stronger recoil spring?

I know my broomhandle is VERY picky about loads. It likes factory pressures as a minimum or it won't cycle.

The 22TCM may be too high a pressure?

If it were me? I'd either reline for the mauser or go to a 9mm. The mauser round is very accurate when the barrel is good and is cheap to reload. I just buy factory ammo and then reload the fired brass.

The original C96 chambering in 9mm was/is 9x25 and again 4mm longer than the corresponding Parabellum cartridge.

Pressure wise they all fall into the same "pot"
9x25: 37,7kpsi
9x21: 34kpsi
7.63x25: 37.7kpsi
7.65x21: 34kpsi
7.62x25 Tok: 34.8kpsi (Original loading not what it has become!!!)

The 22TCM fit right in at 38kpsi

The problem is recoil wich is momentum not energy and because bullet weight is way lower a lighter recoil spring is in order.

[Gazz]

Yes, Mauser did make the C96 in 9x25 but also in 9mm parabellum or 9x19. The Red Nine pistols of WW1 are chambered that way - 9x19. There is no obvious difference in the magazines that I can see.
17nut, Where did you get your pressure data?

[Hardcast416taylor]

Thanks for suggesting Redmans for some work. Now could you give me a way to get ahold of them? Thanks.Robert

[Gazz]

Using Google is so easy. First time I tried I got this;

http://www.redmansrifling.com/

[charlie b]

So, from what you guys say, the action should be strong enough for a 9mm, just change recoil springs. So, it should also be good for 7.62x25 also with a change of recoil springs?

No, my Mausee (built in 1897) is not going to get abused. But, if I find a later one it would be an interesting idea.

[Gazz]

As 17nut and I noted above, the pistols were made chambered in 9mm as well as the 7.63 Mauser. I believe Redmans will reline your bore for either caliber regardless of what it originally was. General consensus is that the 7.62x25 is to hot for the C96 pistol. I do have several boxes of ammo labeled 7.63 Mauser imported by Navy Arms (I think) that are actually 7.62x25. I will not shoot them in my Mausers but shoot them in my Tokarev.

[charlie b]

So if the Tok round has the same chamber pressure as the 9mm then why is it unsafe to fire the Tok round but it is safe to fire the 9mm?

[Texas by God]

It's a hundred year old pistol. I would fire it sparingly with original spec ammo. The 9mm Mauser round was AKA the 9mm Export. The 9mm Paras were German army only. (Red Nines)
I always wanted one but missed the Chinese shipments in the 80's dang it.
Best, Thomas.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Earlwb]

I do not see a problem using the .22 TCM. it is a fine cartridge. It ought to work with the pistol just fine after the barrel is relined, and the chamber cut for it. You can reload for it and use the more minimum load charges though, if you feel inclined for that though. Bullets for reloading and cases are available. So that is only a problem when they are temporarily out of stock at the moment. Using a cast bullet for it is a good way to go too. Lower chamber pressures and less muzzle velocity but it would still outdo a .22 rimfire magnum though. There are some Lyman .22 bullet molds around that you can get in the 40 grain to 48 grain weights too.

Besides the Chinese were using the 7.62 Tokarev rounds in the old broomhandle Mausers for ages with worn out bores, etc. Plus they had rebored and relined the barrels of numerous ones to 9mm Parabellum too. So if a beat up worn down one worked with those rounds then it should not be a problem with the .22 TCM.

[17nut]

So if the Tok round has the same chamber pressure as the 9mm then why is it unsafe to fire the Tok round but it is safe to fire the 9mm?

It Had!
And the key word is had.
They loaded the round way up for submachine guns and beefed the pistols up accordingly.

The Czech loading is +25% ie. 47kpsi and that will destroy am old C96 in short order.

http://harringtonproducts.com/7.62x25mm/

[charlie b]

thanks. So it is higher pressure than the 9mm.

[Earlwb]

They used to load different types of ammo. One type for semi-auto pistols and the other type for submachine guns. The submachine gun ammo was loaded to much higher pressures than the pistol ammo was loaded. Also since the submachine guns were slam fire they used more stiff or stronger primers that had a more thick cup. Thus some pistols aren't able to strike the primer to set it off with the machine gun ammo.

Actually we have the same problem even today. Some of the regular machine guns used more hotly loaded ammo for machine guns too. Also with much higher chamber pressures than the regular rifle ammunition. Same for some pistol ammo such as the 9x19 ammo or the .45 ACP ammo too.

[TCLouis]

Get the magazine that used to be shotgun news.
There is an outfit in FL that does the 30 reline/9mm mod and has done them for years . . .
As have Redmans.

I have one sitting beside my computer desk that I have said I was going to send for the lat 15 or so years.

Maybe next week????

[Gazz]

I think that was the Broom Closet and I think there are no longer in operation. There may have been another outfit as well but I don't remember. I had the Broom Closet do a job for me that I was not happy with. They did stuff that I did not ask for and what I did ask for was done in a most unusual manner and required further modification of parts in my possession.