Quick Q: newer vs older Shiloh 74?

[Rusty Parker]

Real quick question, if one were trying to decide between a slightly older Shiloh (B2xxx) in gently used but near-new condition, and a newer 4xxxB '74 in pretty-much-NIB condition, which would you pick? both are similarly equipped, so a very good apples-to-apples comparison. Modest price difference for the older one but not dramatically so.

I guess the question is there any reason to favor the newer rifle in terms of more modern build quality versus the older one from 15-ish (?) years ago?

thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.
RP

[Tatume]

Shiloh has a reputation for first rate quality from day one until now. Also, 15 years is not very long ago. I recommend picking the one you like better. If it was me, age would play no part in my decision.

[country gent]

Unlike the originals to now diffrences in steels, hardening, and manufacturing. The 15 or so years your talking isn't that much difference. I doubt that steel alloys or hardening has changed very much and in reality both may have been made on the same fixtures LOL.

[Rusty Parker]

generally speaking, have rates of twist gotten faster in that time? these are both 40-65, I've read older ones were 16" twist but more recently people have ordered them with faster rates of twist, wondering if that might be a factor?

[marlinman93]

Regardless of maker, I'd normally buy a brand new clone vs. used, IF the price break for the used is small. If the older Shiloh is a lot cheaper, then the decision to buy it would be easy. I'm always happier just stepping up a bit more and being the first owner. But I also love saving gun money, so if the difference is large, or the older gun has some nice sights, that's the only thing that would make me buy the older Shiloh.

[Rusty Parker]

Regardless of maker, I'd normally buy a brand new clone vs. used, IF the price break for the used is small. If the older Shiloh is a lot cheaper, then the decision to buy it would be easy. I'm always happier just stepping up a bit more and being the first owner. But I also love saving gun money, so if the difference is large, or the older gun has some nice sights, that's the only thing that would make me buy the older Shiloh.

yep, ordinarily that's kind of my thinking too. The sights are close, the older gun does have a spirit level and windage adjustment on the front globe. The newer rifle has the pewter forend tip, the older a plain wood schnabel forend. Approx. $500 difference in asking price between the two.

[dave roelle]

I Have one of each vintage--------------there is no difference other than the add on's !!!!!!!!

mine are 45-70's 1 x 18 twist in both cases

Dave

[country gent]

The other thing to remember is the used one goes home with you when you buy it or is there realitivly quickly. Ordering a new Shiloh can be a longer wait and more fiddling around with the order payment final payment and then the shipping to a dealer. Some makers are 8-10 weeks not sure what Shiloh is running now.

[Dan Cash]

Pick the one with the nicest wood. Windage adjustable front sight....Danger Will Robinson!!! That says the rear sight is deficient on deflection adjustment and adjusting a front sight is going to be a real pain in the butt. If the gun is .40-85, be sure it has the faster 1:12 or 1:14 twist to handle heavy bullets. If .45, it is already set to go with 1:18 and you will be good to go with 550 spire point bullets. You probably don't need to worry about buying a used Shiloh as the owners tend to be very fussy and tender with them. You don't beat or neglect a $2000+ gun.

[Tatume]

Windage adjustable front sight.... That says the rear sight is deficient on deflection adjustment and adjusting a front sight is going to be a real pain in the butt.

Windage adjustment at the front sight is very useful, in that it allows for the rear sight to be zeroed at the center of its adjustment range. I routinely set the rear sight on a new gun at mechanical center and at or near the bottom of its adjustment range. Then I sight in the gun by drifting and filing the front sight. Afterwards the gun can be resighted for any range or wind condition, and returned to mechanical zero quickly and easily.

[Gunlaker]

I have an older Shiloh ( not a Farmingdale built rifle with freebore ) and it is excellently accurate. The only difference with the newer ones is that quite recently the barrels have a little bit of choke to them which is nice. For silhouette or midrange BPTR matches, a 1:16 twist .40-65 Shiloh will work extremely well. Most newly manufactured Shiloh .40-65 rifles are still 1:16 twist.

Personally I'd choose the newer one.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Oh, what rear sights are on the rifles? Ideally you'll want a midrange Soule. I wouldn't worry about a windgage front. I've never even come close to maxing out windage at 600 yards on my .40-65. Long range is a different story, but I wouldn't shoot a .40-65 for long range anyway. There is one slight detriment to the windgage front sight and that is that they are taller so your rear sight settings will be higher for any given distance, which will make your cheek weld slightly less good.

Chris.

[Rusty Parker]

This is all really helpful. Studied the pics a bit more closely, the older rifle with the windage front globe has a mid-range Soule, the newer rifle with just a front globe has a long-range. Go figure. These are both .40-65, and here in the east the longest ranges are ~600 yards, so mid-range would be fine. Good to know about the 16" twist.

[Gunlaker]

Yeah a midrange Soule has plenty of elevation for 600. I'd have to look at my notes, but my rear elevation is a bit less than 0.90 for 600 yards. That's with an MVA low profile front sight. I have shot my .45-70 Shiloh to 880 yards with a midrange Soule on a 34" barrel. It'd reach 900 but I don't think it'd make 1000.

[Smoke4320]

given your above newfound specs and if the older one is $500.00 cheaper I say go older and go home happy

[Don McDowell]

Real quick question, if one were trying to decide between a slightly older Shiloh (B2xxx) in gently used but near-new condition, and a newer 4xxxB '74 in pretty-much-NIB condition, which would you pick? both are similarly equipped, so a very good apples-to-apples comparison. Modest price difference for the older one but not dramatically so.

I guess the question is there any reason to favor the newer rifle in terms of more modern build quality versus the older one from 15-ish (?) years ago?

thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.
RP

While there isn't a ton of difference in them, I would opt for the B suffix gun. Kirk has this barrel making thing down pat, and in the last few years, I don't think there's a better bpcr barrel out there.

[Rusty Parker]

Well as luck would have it, another rifle intervened which will likely put the Shiloh purchase off for at least a little while. A Browning BPCR highwall in 40-65 popped up yesterday for a real good price, didn't feel like I could pass on it. Been looking for one for almost a year. Hopefully it's as nice as the seller says it is. So . . . Don, I really waffled on the Shiloh decision based on the barrel vintage, I kind of agree the B suffix guns might have ever-so-slight an edge. But probably slight.

At any rate at this point I'm trying to figure out if maybe I've got enough cash in the kitty to still do the older Shiloh (fwiw the seller does do layaway.) Anyone ever in the position of trying to figure out two new rifles at the same time? although that would probably be biting off a bit more than I can chew. Hopefully someone here can talk me out of it. :mrgreen:

[sharpsguy]

Forget the Browning and get the newer Shiloh. You'll thank me later.

[Don McDowell]

You're not in the right company to be talked out of buying 2 rifles....:mrgreen: I would actually suggest buying all 3 and covering all the bases.. for now..

[Gunlaker]

Don I see you and I do things the same way :-).

I agree with you on the Shiloh barrels, I don't think anyone is building anything superior to them. I'm slowly switching over to being nearly 100% Shiloh for my competition rifles.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I've got a real problem now. That Browning I had rebarreled, and that Shiloh #1 both shot way above my pay grade this past weekend, so now I have to figure out which one to run at the regional next month.

[marlinman93]

At any rate at this point I'm trying to figure out if maybe I've got enough cash in the kitty to still do the older Shiloh (fwiw the seller does do layaway.) Anyone ever in the position of trying to figure out two new rifles at the same time? although that would probably be biting off a bit more than I can chew. Hopefully someone here can talk me out of it. :mrgreen:

Been there, done that, often! And it's especially painful when you're enamored with both guns, but the funds aren't quite there! If the funds are there I try to buy both, but when faced with two that are both what I want, it's like choosing which kid to let go!

[Rusty Parker]

you guys are funny, now you really do have me thinking about the two rifles.


Forget the Browning and get the newer Shiloh. You'll thank me later.

sharpsguy, I have to say I am really sympathetic to this argument, in fact I agree with it. But the price on the Browning was just too good compared to what I've been seeing. I'll have to pull up a thread from last year when folks were talking about the prices on these and update the thread. I don't think I'll regret the purchase and will definitely make it back and then some should I ever decide to sell it.

[Rusty Parker]

You're not in the right company to be talked out of buying 2 rifles....:mrgreen: I would actually suggest buying all 3 and covering all the bases.. for now..


Don I see you and I do things the same way :-).

I agree with you on the Shiloh barrels, I don't think anyone is building anything superior to them. I'm slowly switching over to being nearly 100% Shiloh for my competition rifles.

Chris.

Well, we'll have to see what happens when the dust settles from this transaction. While getting the older Shiloh is probably still "do-able" at this point, it is not exactly what I would call "advisable," if you know what I mean. :wink: sometimes gotta keep the peace at home best you can.


Been there, done that, often! And it's especially painful when you're enamored with both guns, but the funds aren't quite there! If the funds are there I try to buy both, but when faced with two that are both what I want, it's like choosing which kid to let go!

I wouldn't exactly say I was enamored with the Browning, it's just after a year of casually looking for one, to have one pop up on gb on the very same day I was getting set to call on one of the Shilohs . . . well, I had to take that as some sort of sign. For comparison's sake, a week or two ago there was another one on gb that had the bidding max out at nearly $1800, and that one didn't even hit the reserve price! plus I didn't think it was as nice.

so who knows, it's a bit of a cr@p shoot. At am rate I feel pretty confident that I'll be able to locate a used or as-new Shiloh if these other two get sold in the mean time.

[Don McDowell]

Reading the description on that Browning, when it says "never had blackpowder in it" would give me a bit of pause and concern...

[Rusty Parker]

Reading the description on that Browning, when it says "never had blackpowder in it" would give me a bit of pause and concern...

yep, and that's not the first time I've read that in a description for one of these guns. Talking with the seller, he bought it new at the Tulsa show some years back and estimates he's probably put less than 200 rounds through it before putting it away in the safe. again, used firearms are always a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition anyway, but this one would seemed like a good risk. Private seller with gun having a known history vs. a dealer who can't tell you anything about a gun's provenance . . . we'll have to wait and see until it shows up.

[Gunlaker]

Don that is a good problem to have :-). Did Eron re-barrel that Browning? I wish we had a good single shot gunsmith up here in my neck of the woods.

Russty, I'll bet that it won't be too hard getting that rifle to shoot. A while back TexasMac on the ( Shiloh forum ) showed some of his load development for his Browning .40-65 and it looked promising. The key will be a bullet that fits the chamber well, and a good powder like Swiss 1.5 or OE 1.5. I don't remember what bullet and alloy Wayne ( TexasMac ) was using, but you might want to consider asking him.

Chris.

[Rusty Parker]

Don that is a good problem to have :-). Did Eron re-barrel that Browning? I wish we had a good single shot gunsmith up here in my neck of the woods.

Russty, I'll bet that it won't be too hard getting that rifle to shoot. A while back TexasMac on the ( Shiloh forum ) showed some of his load development for his Browning .40-65 and it looked promising. The key will be a bullet that fits the chamber well, and a good powder like Swiss 1.5 or OE 1.5. I don't remember what bullet and alloy Wayne ( TexasMac ) was using, but you might want to consider asking him.

Chris.

I spent a good amount of time a couple of weeks ago reading all I could find on the Browning 40-65s, apparently there's a couple of issues that present challenges. The chamber is usually too long to use Starline 40-65 brass, so most folks recommend re-sizing 45-70 brass for optimal results. Also I understand the chamber is tapered right before the rifling, so the bullet design optimally includes a tapered nose. I've not shot 40-65 before, but it sounded challenging enough that it put me off that other Browning two weeks ago and put me back on the Shiloh hunt. I know Wayne/TexasMac has the book on these rifles, he was out of town in July, otherwise I would have bought it last month, I'll probably buy it now. But I'll have to get back on the Shiloh forum and see if I can find the thread you're talking about on his load development for .40-65, so thanks.

As an aside, I notice that Wayne seems to put in a bid on every single Browning BPCR rifle that comes up on gb, but he seems to max out at $1100-1200 at the most from what I can gather. I suppose he has to figure in his resale price, unless he just bids as a place marker to follow the auctions.

[sharpsguy]

I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, yes Eron did the barrel work and the trigger job.

[Rusty Parker]

I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.


sharpsguy, it's gonna happen!! maybe just not this week. Soon, though. :wink:

[Gunlaker]

I'll say it again--go with the newer Shiloh. I bought a new Shiloh off the rack about 2 weeks ago. It's a 40-65, and everything about the rifle was absolutely perfect. I put a copper penny front sight on it, and changed the full buckhorn rear barrel sight to a Lawerence low notch. Got it zeroed with a 385 grain round nosed paper patched bullet over 60 grains of KIK 2f , and shooting from my shoulder sitting off a bench started shooting turkey silhouettes at 410 yards with the barrel sights. After I got on the turkey, I hit four in a row and quit for the day. These were the last four shots out of a 25 shot string without wiping or a blow tube. The Shiloh barrels are in a class by themselves, and I absolutely don't think you can do that with a Browning. Good luck with whatever you do, I've had my say.

I think you can't go wrong that way for sure. To be honest, I'll never buy another BPCR/BPTR rifle unless it's a Shiloh, or a gun built by one of the few really talented single shot gunsmiths.

Chris.

[OlDeuce]

sharpsguy, it's gonna happen!! maybe just not this week. Soon, though. :wink:

Do the B2xxx My shiloh is a B2xxx......the wood fits Perfect ! The rifle Shoots !!! Ol Deuce

[EDG]

The .40-65 Browning chamber is not tapered. Browning designed in a free bore between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling. In my rifle this results in .150 of full diameter bullet exposed ahead of the case mouth when the common Lyman 410663 bullet is chambered to touch the lands. Ahead of the free bore is the standard lead angle that is found in most well designed modern rifles. This is compared to the abrupt angle used at the end of the 45-70 chamber. However I would not call the Browning chamber tapered since it follows best current practice. At least every modern rifle that I own has a conventional tapered leade other than the SAAMI chambers in the 45-70 and the .30-30 and a few other old timers.
The bullets that I use are .410 in diameter. If you look around the internet you will probably be able to find a photo of a Browning 40-65 chamber cast.

My 40-65 chamber is 2.125" long so the Starline brass is a little short. I make my brass from R-P and WW brass.

One thing that makes a lot of difference with me is the much more convenient shooting with a Highwall.
After firing this is what happens with a Sharps.
1. Pull the hammer to 1/2 cock (to prevent breaking the firing pin).
2. Pull the lever down to open the falling block.
3. Remove the fired case.
4. Reload the chamber
5. Close the action.
6. Pull hammer back to full cock.
7. Pull rear trigger until it sets
(Note this is a silly process. The rear trigger may take 10 to 15 lbs to set it. You tire your trigger finger doing this. Then you try to use that same finger to pull the very light pull of the firing front trigger. This degrades your trigger control compared to single trigger rifle )
8. Sight and fire.

I shot the Browning Highwalls in several versions about 20 years before I bought a Sharps clone. I found the extra steps a little tedious and the setting of the double set triggers an outright nuisance. I loathe the double set triggers. But then I shot many fine bolt gun triggers including 3 lever Broughton and Canjar triggers before the Sharps double set triggers. I find the double sets that detract rather than add to BPCR rifles.

To shoot a Highwall you do the following
1. Open the action
2. Remove the fired case.
3. Reload the chamber
4. Close the action
5. Sight and fire.



I spent a good amount of time a couple of weeks ago reading all I could find on the Browning 40-65s, apparently there's a couple of issues that present challenges. The chamber is usually too long to use Starline 40-65 brass, so most folks recommend re-sizing 45-70 brass for optimal results. Also I understand the chamber is tapered right before the rifling, so the bullet design optimally includes a tapered nose. I've not shot 40-65 before, but it sounded challenging enough that it put me off that other Browning two weeks ago and put me back on the Shiloh hunt. I know Wayne/TexasMac has the book on these rifles, he was out of town in July, otherwise I would have bought it last month, I'll probably buy it now. But I'll have to get back on the Shiloh forum and see if I can find the thread you're talking about on his load development for .40-65, so thanks.

As an aside, I notice that Wayne seems to put in a bid on every single Browning BPCR rifle that comes up on gb, but he seems to max out at $1100-1200 at the most from what I can gather. I suppose he has to figure in his resale price, unless he just bids as a place marker to follow the auctions.

[Dan Cash]

yep, and that's not the first time I've read that in a description for one of these guns. Talking with the seller, he bought it new at the Tulsa show some years back and estimates he's probably put less than 200 rounds through it before putting it away in the safe. again, used firearms are always a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition anyway, but this one would seemed like a good risk. Private seller with gun having a known history vs. a dealer who can't tell you anything about a gun's provenance . . . we'll have to wait and see until it shows up.

The guy put it away because it won't shoot.

[Rusty Parker]

Do the B2xxx My shiloh is a B2xxx......the wood fits Perfect ! The rifle Shoots !!! Ol Deuce

still in the running!

[Rusty Parker]

The .40-65 Browning chamber is not tapered. Browning designed in a free bore between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling. In my rifle this results in .150 of full diameter bullet exposed ahead of the case mouth when the common Lyman 410663 bullet is chambered to touch the lands. Ahead of the free bore is the standard lead angle that is found in most well designed modern rifles. This is compared to the abrupt angle used at the end of the 45-70 chamber. However I would not call the Browning chamber tapered since it follows best current practice. At least every modern rifle that I own has a conventional tapered leade other than the SAAMI chambers in the 45-70 and the .30-30 and a few other old timers.
The bullets that I use are .410 in diameter. If you look around the internet you will probably be able to find a photo of a Browning 40-65 chamber cast.

I got Wayne's book and read it over the weekend. He includes load info from 15 or 20 people, the Lyman 410663 shows up several times as does the SAECO #740. I will probably get each mold and play around with each. Folks were split between sizing .410 vs .409, so I'll get sizers for each.


My 40-65 chamber is 2.125" long so the Starline brass is a little short. I make my brass from R-P and WW brass.

The brass from the seller showed up today, half of it is Starline 40-65 cases and the other half mostly resized R-P 45-70 with a few WW 45-70 thrown in. I'll have to see how they all look length-wise when I get them out to the reloading bench.


One thing that makes a lot of difference with me is the much more convenient shooting with a Highwall.
After firing this is what happens with a Sharps.
1. Pull the hammer to 1/2 cock (to prevent breaking the firing pin).
2. Pull the lever down to open the falling block.
3. Remove the fired case.
4. Reload the chamber
5. Close the action.
6. Pull hammer back to full cock.
7. Pull rear trigger until it sets
(Note this is a silly process. The rear trigger may take 10 to 15 lbs to set it. You tire your trigger finger doing this. Then you try to use that same finger to pull the very light pull of the firing front trigger. This degrades your trigger control compared to single trigger rifle )
8. Sight and fire.

I shot the Browning Highwalls in several versions about 20 years before I bought a Sharps clone. I found the extra steps a little tedious and the setting of the double set triggers an outright nuisance. I loathe the double set triggers. But then I shot many fine bolt gun triggers including 3 lever Broughton and Canjar triggers before the Sharps double set triggers. I find the double sets that detract rather than add to BPCR rifles.

To shoot a Highwall you do the following
1. Open the action
2. Remove the fired case.
3. Reload the chamber
4. Close the action
5. Sight and fire.

If I end up liking this rifle, it may replace the Miroku 38-55 for SASS side matches. For the SASS timed events, the highwall certainly makes a lot of sense.

[Rusty Parker]

The guy put it away because it won't shoot.

maybe. but he also said the ranch his club shot at lost its lease when the ranch was sold. So most of his silhouette guns got put away, sounds like he's got some more that he's going to try and sell this fall.