i have tons of 38 special cases ...what is a good FFF or FFFF load.

[mozeppa]

i thought i'd load up some real smokers! ....you know...as in smoke!...not speed.

i have 140 & 160 grain cast keith style boolits. thought i'd load em up cuz i have a pound of each powder.

so whats a good load?

[jrayborn]

I've never loaded black powder so take this for what it is worth... I don't think it is safe to use regular loading equipment to load black powder. You didn't say that you were, I just wanted to point that out, just in case.

[corbinace]

When I loaded black powder in 38 to shoot in a 357 gun, I just filled up the case to the bottom of the projectile. Now, I never used 4F, but I did use 3F.

[whtsmoke]

do not use 4f powder in your loads, its a priming powder only as i have been told.

[smkummer]

I have an old hodgdon pyrodex/black powder manual dated 1981 that states 16 grains of FFF behind a 158 bullet for the 38 S&W special. Most likely that assumes a modern web case. The same manual states 18 grains behind a 150 grain bullet in the 38 long Colt, that seems odd unless the LC case is balloon.

[ikarus1]

Hodgdon has triple 7 metallic cartridge data on its website. Since its stronger than BP i would think any load in that is safe for BP usage. Honestly in a modern revolver you cant fit enough BP in a .38 to harm it

[gpidaho]

The Lyman Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual has load recommendations for 150, 158 and 170 gr bullets with several different brands of black powder for use in 38spl cases. If you have a load in mind I'll see if it's mentioned. PM me if. Gp

[tucumcari_kid]

i thought i'd load up some real smokers! ....you know...as in smoke!...not speed.

i have 140 & 160 grain cast keith style boolits. thought i'd load em up cuz i have a pound of each powder.

so whats a good load?

I'd fill them up. Compress the charge with the bullet, light or no crimp. That will be stout for those light bullets. Reloading wise, just be careful with the powder measure, if youre weighing by hand each load, no problem, but mechanical measure needs to be a material that wont create static, esp if it is holding a 1/4 pount of BP in the reservoir. Such as this ... Lyman No Classic Black Powder Measure (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Lyman-No-Classic-Black-Powder-Measure/740957.uts)

[Tom W.]

It would probably be better to load by volume rather than a scale. A black powder measure is brass and not very expensive, I guess. I haven't bought one since 1975..

[tucumcari_kid]

From "Outdoor Recreation" July 1919:

A Cap and Ball Revolver ARP Galena Md Your revolver is probably what used to be known as a 36 caliber The 38 special bullet measures 358 You can probably obtain bullet molds from Francis Bannerman Broadway New York City It is our impression that the Remington revolvers of the period you mention were mostly used by the Navy but may have been used in the army as well We could not prescribe a powder charge but you can readily work one out Would suggest you obtain a fine quick burning black powder such as Hazard's FFFFG and experiment to see which load gives the best results As to their accuracy it we believe all the reports of them they were marvelous but would not want to vouch for them Editor

[tucumcari_kid]

It would probably be better to load by volume rather than a scale. A black powder measure is brass and not very expensive, I guess. I haven't bought one since 1975..

Yeah, I'm not very technical with black powder, pretty much find a dipper that fills the case and go crazy.

[tucumcari_kid]

Original factory BP loads were 21 grains or 21.5 grains. Not sure the granularity -- FFFG? I can't get more than 18 or 19 grains in a modern 38 special case. Then you have a lot of compression. 18 Grains, I believe, was the 38 Long Colt factory/official load.

[bob208]

first you will need a bp lube like spg. if not don't expect much for accuracy.

in mike venturino's book shooting colt single actions. he give a load of 19 gr. 3f with a 158 gr. bullet for 830 fps.

I load by volume. you do need a good crimp.

[Walkingwolf]

Solder a wire handle to a 38 spl brass. Use that as a dipper, fill the case full, then compress. Black powder cannot have any void, so fill her up, and your good to go.

[Larry Gibson]

Years ago a friend showed up with a S&W M1902 M&P in good shootable shape. He wanted some "original" BP loads for it. According to Phi Sharpe's book, Complete Guide to Handloading, the BP load was 20.6 gr of fffg under a 158 gr bullet. We soon found that was with older balloon head cases. We settled on 18 gr (by weight) of Dupont fffg in R-P 38 SPL 148 WC cases as the sides are thinner deeper into the case for the WCs. He sized the cases in a FL steel RCBS die. The cases were then belled. "HOT" primers were said to be best so we primed them with CCI 550s.

A scoop was made soldering a wire handle to a steel 45 ACP case and then filing down to hold 18 gr. I made a compression plug that was used in the seating die. It was slipped into the case on top of the powder then "sized" in the seat die which compressed the powder to the seating depth of the bullet. The plug was removed and used in the next case, etc.

The bullet we used was a 358431 of which he had cast of 40-1 alloy. He had sized them at .359 and lubed with a homemade Crisco based lube. They weighed close to 160 gr. They were seated to the crimp groove and a heavy crimp applied.

The BP loads shot just fine in the old M&P. I chronographed them at 840 fps out of the 6" barreled M&P (might have been a 5" ?). My friend passed away several years back but he was shooting the M&P up till then. Don't know what happened to the M&P.....unfortunately......

[Maven]

A big "thumbs up" for Larry's sage advice (above)! As for BP bullet lubes, there are many besides SPG, including Felix Lube and Stumpy's Moose Snot.

[tucumcari_kid]

Years ago a friend showed up with a S&W M1902 M&P in good shootable shape. He wanted some "original" BP loads for it. According to Phi Sharpe's book, Complete Guide to Handloading, the BP load was 20.6 gr of fffg under a 158 gr bullet. We soon found that was with older balloon head cases. We settled on 18 gr (by weight) of Dupont fffg in R-P 38 SPL 148 WC cases as the sides are thinner deeper into the case for the WCs. He sized the cases in a FL steel RCBS die. The cases were then belled. "HOT" primers were said to be best so we primed them with CCI 550s.

A scoop was made soldering a wire handle to a steel 45 ACP case and then filing down to hold 18 gr. I made a compression plug that was used in the seating die. It was slipped into the case on top of the powder then "sized" in the seat die which compressed the powder to the seating depth of the bullet. The plug was removed and used in the next case, etc.

The bullet we used was a 358431 of which he had cast of 40-1 alloy. He had sized them at .359 and lubed with a homemade Crisco based lube. They weighed close to 160 gr. They were seated to the crimp groove and a heavy crimp applied.

The BP loads shot just fine in the old M&P. I chronographed them at 840 fps out of the 6" barreled M&P (might have been a 5" ?). My friend passed away several years back but he was shooting the M&P up till then. Don't know what happened to the M&P.....unfortunately......

Yes, the M&P will shoot BP loads all day. Great weapon. I couldn't find the Black Powder loads in the Sharpe book, just the semi-smokeless. But then I read the whole entry. Wow, the mind is a terrible thing to waste....

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, the M&P will shoot BP loads all day. Great weapon. I couldn't find the Black Powder loads in the Sharpe book, just the semi-smokeless. But then I read the whole entry. Wow, the mind is a terrible thing to waste....

Yes the "Kings semi-smokeless" powder load is the closest to actual BP in his table of 38 SPL loads (pp's 408 and 409). He gives the bullet weight and original BP load in the narrative on page 408, 1st and 2nd paragraphs.

[tucumcari_kid]

Yes the "Kings semi-smokeless" powder load is the closest to actual BP in his table of 38 SPL loads (pp's 408 and 409). He gives the bullet weight and original BP load in the narrative on page 408, 1st and 2nd paragraphs.

Yeah he states 18 grains of FFg Kings for the 158. In the narrative he says the Army 38 LC load was 14.4 grains FFFg with the 148 bullet and then says the 38 Special was 20.6 grains FFFg. It isn't clear to me if he means 38 Special with the 148 grain bullet or the 158 grain bullet. If the King's is close in ratio to the Black Powder, then I would ASSUME that the 18.0 grains of FFg King's for the 158 grain bullet would be equivalent to 18 grains of FFFg BP with that bullet. I'll have to see what Whelen says about that. It would make sense that the Semi Smokeless would be 1:1 equivalent to make it easier for the average person to use. At the end of the day, though, I still just fill the case up. Messing with "reduced" BP loads isn't really worth the effort.

[Tom W.]

I believe Larry knows even more than I do. At least he's more eloquent. Everyone can learn from him!

Hats off and bald heads showing to Larry!:drinks:. :bigsmyl2:

[tranders]

On the Goex website they are showing 16 grains of FFFg for a velocity of 870fps with a 158 grain projectile. That seems kinda fast to me for 16 grains.

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah he states 18 grains of FFg Kings for the 158. In the narrative he says the Army 38 LC load was 14.4 grains FFFg with the 148 bullet and then says the 38 Special was 20.6 grains FFFg. It isn't clear to me if he means 38 Special with the 148 grain bullet or the 158 grain bullet. If the King's is close in ratio to the Black Powder, then I would ASSUME that the 18.0 grains of FFg King's for the 158 grain bullet would be equivalent to 18 grains of FFFg BP with that bullet. I'll have to see what Whelen says about that. It would make sense that the Semi Smokeless would be 1:1 equivalent to make it easier for the average person to use. At the end of the day, though, I still just fill the case up. Messing with "reduced" BP loads isn't really worth the effort.

It is in the preceding paragraph Sharpe states the bullet weight;

"This cartridge was an improvement on the 0fficial Army cartridge-the .38 Long Colt. Essentially it was an enlargement in proportion to the .32 Smith & Wesson Long, the bullet being in the same proportion as the extremely accurate smaller caliber handgun, In order to bring about this balance, it was necessary to increase the bullet weight to 158 grains, retaining the same shape as the .32 S&W Long."

[Larry Gibson]

On the Goex website they are showing 16 grains of FFFg for a velocity of 870fps with a 158 grain projectile. That seems kinda fast to me for 16 grains.

Difference may simply be the difference in test barrels/firearms.

[Good Cheer]

In the 1970's I hogged out a Lee 9mm mold with a 3/8" bit and started shooting what people call conicals.
The 1861 revolver shot and shoots great with compressed loads (that why Colt made the change in loading levers).

[cjensen]

I use a 1 cc Lee dipper. about 15 grains. Static myth issues have been debunked in my opinion. do a google search.

[tucumcari_kid]

I use a 1 cc Lee dipper. about 15 grains. Static myth issues have been debunked in my opinion. do a google search.

I never thought much of the "static" issue, except I just took it as fact. However, the only funnels I have are plastic. I weigh out the charges because I can get it more even that way, however dippers work just as well. It looks like the static issue is not an established fact and may be, just that, a myth Experimenting with sparks and static (http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html)

Learn something new every day... now will I change my behavior? :)

[Texas by God]

As stated use 18grs ffg I cast Lee 150 swc from pure lead and tumble lube. Great accuracy but they heat a pistol up FAST!

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